Good evening, baby queen. Good evening. Good evening. Guess what time it is? Whether you're into classical music or not, I think one way or another, we all are familiar with Beethoven's fifth symphony. And so we're here this evening to bring another exciting topic about Beethoven and was he or wasn't he? What what are we talking about this evening sister Kara? Was he or was it he what? It is a very fascinating question. Was he or was he not black? Or did he have black ancestry? Absolutely. So I'm always Excited when we come on with these types of topics and so this evening, if we, for those who do not know the answer, this is the opportunity to find out whether he was or or was not, we won't reveal it but I certainly am excited to have this conversation this evening. It's always good to see you. How are you? I'm doing well you. Very well excited and although a little tired but we're we're we're present. We're present. We are present and very happy to be in the space. So, with that being said, miss resident for facilitator Sister. Cara House, take us away. Alright, thank you so much. I am excited to introduce you all or reintroduce you all hopefully to one of our frequent speaker is an enjoyable guest that we have on frequently and and just a great educator and speaker, Doctor Ricardo Guthrie who will be presenting to us on the question of was he or wasn't he? Doctor Guthrie is associate professor of ethnic studies at Northern Arizona University. He examines political narratives of the black press and writes about cinema as cultural political artifacts. He was lead artist for the historic Southside Mural at a Murdoch Community Center and most recently edited a book on Malcolm X focused on young adult readers written by Ebony Joy Wilkins for Capstone Press. Welcome Doctor Guthrie Oh, thank you. Thank you, Berndeen and Cara for inviting me back. Um I have to give my disclaimer. I'm not going to give the musicologist analysis that we probably need to talk about Beethoven's music but I do agree with you that this is the vaccine question. Was Beethoven and you can begin to analyze the the man, the music, and the time in which he lives. So, let's jump right in. Um with that caveat, we still need to have the musicologist among us. So, if you're there out in webinar land, please sign in so that we can hear what you think. So, was Beethoven black? Uh Ludwig Von, Beethoven According. to Joel Augustus Rogers, back in 1934. He makes the claim Beethoven the, world's greatest musician, was indeed, without a doubt, a dark mulato or of mixed race. He was called the black Spaniard. his teacher was the mortal Joseph Hayden, who also he claimed, was colored in the 1930s was the way he described it. A former Austrian hero the music for the Austrian National Anthem and was a contemporary Beethoven and many others. Um so, my man, mister Joel A Rogers, why would he make such a claim and who was he? Uh Joel Rogers was the self-educated man who father was a a school teacher. Oh no, let's let's keep the first one on for a little while and then we'll go back to the next step. Cuz I'll give you what Joel Rogers says and then what contemporary say and then we'll go back one more time. Okay. So, Joel Rogers or JA Rogers, was a self-educated man. His father was a school teacher and a Methodist minister in Jamaica. Um and later, JA Rogers served in the British Army in the Royal Garrison Artillery in Port Royal Jamaica before coming to the United States in 1906. Alright, so he's Jamaican. He comes to US in nineteen oh six Enrolls in the Chicago Art Institute in 1909 and works as a foreman porter on the trains for several summers between 19oh9 to 1919. So he's well traveled both in the US and abroad and then he comes a to US and studies art and then works on the the railroad as a Pullman Porter and again, what they typically do is go coast to coast or from Chicago to LA or from Chicago down to the southern roots. Um and so, being a well-traveled person, he was known for picking up information that he could then write about. He had an amazing career as a journalist. Uh moving to Harlem in 1921 and he met and became friends with both Hubert Harrison, the West Indian Radical Activist and Writer and the Afro journalist and and publisher George Skyler. So, he meets with the right people. His in his third junket if you will. Um as a a career journalist, writing for the Pittsburgh Courier, the New York Amsterdam News, the Chicago Defender, as well as A Phillip Randolph's Radical Magazine called the Messenger and this is all during the 1920s in the Harlem Renaissance. So, World Tra coast to coast. Um spanning the the country and finding this bits of information. He finally publishes this book. The 100 amazing facts about the Negro. Um we're using the terms of the day. He we would say black but back then they would say Negro with a capital N. Um and he he makes an several essays around the the journalist world. Um even taking time to become an early critic of this music that they call jazz during the 1920s. But his real importance came as an international journalist. Reporting on the Italian occupation of Ethiopia from 1935 to 1936. And Ethiopia in East Africa as you know was never colonized. But the Italian fascist tried to take over the country. They bombed several villages. Um in the Battle of Adua in 19 I believe the the Ethiopian Armies defeated the Italian Army. And only with the assistance I believe of the access powers was Italy finally able to subdue Ethiopia. But international outcry emerged because of writers like JA Rogers and many many African Americans sent funds to support the Ethiopians. And of course it was at that time that a an emperor who who claimed his genealogy back to biblical times. Name Ros who was renamed became the emperor of Ethiopia and his name was forwarded by none other than Marcus Garvey to try to inspire a movement after him. This is all reported by JA Rogers during the 1930s and and subsequently. Now, Rogers worked for several years for the Pittsburgh Courier from 1921 to 1966 And of the same year that he published this a hundred amazing facts about the Negro in 1934. He began publishing a weekly column titled Your History which ran again from the 1930s to 1960s or there about. So, he makes this claim but there are others who also made the claim including Samuel College Taylor from nineteen oh seven who was a British composer of black and Caucasian heritage. So, he's he made the claim based on the music and also the fact that Beethoven looked a lot like him. So, he was trying to endear himself with the legacy of Beethoven if you ask me but it's not a bad thesis, right? Because why? Beethoven we can go to the next slide now. Thank you, Cara. Uh Beethoven was stocky short, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish brown complexion, and then all that wild hair that we've seen portrayed by artists. This one looked like he has a what would you say a type of a perm but many of the others had his hair much more rounded or or kinky we would say. Um but his complexion was darker than what we see in this particular painting. This is a painting by August Clover from eighteen eighteen. From the University Universal History Archive by Getty Images. So black people were looking for this genius in Beethoven and saying, yeah, he looks like us. Therefore, he must be. But other let's say composers and music scholars wanna rebut that. They say, the history of the decades old claim and what its permanence tells us about the litter the musical canon in classical music says the genealogy doesn't support it. Okay, so this scholar was written about by Nora McGreavy in the Daily Correspondent Smithsonian Institution and they say they refute the theory because the genealogy is hard to prove, alright? There an opportunity to highlight this pressing question that came about in the night 2020s when people took to Twitter to reinvestigate was Beethoven Black. Two hundred and fifty years anniversary of his birth in the night in 2020 and so people were were were burning up the Twitter to try to find out was Beethoven black. Did we erase him from the history? Um is this another example of systemic racism and classical music and his Well, there's a theory though that Beethoven was black based on possible genealogy that his mother an affair with a a Spaniard during the the time of his of his birth. Historian Joel Rogers supports that theory. Um and others musicologists and historian Dominique Renee DeLerma said there was evidence perhaps that the mother I believe was having an affair with someone of African descent in Spain. Now, what does this mean? Beethoven was born in seventeen seventy. He lived until 1827. His father was Johan, on Beethoven and, his mother was Maria Magdalena Van Beethoven Their genealogy is Flemish as they say. But did his mother have an affair with a Spanish person of African and street. Where his flmish ancestors mixed with people of African descent. When that region was briefly under Spanish rule, they say briefly but the Moors from North Africa occupied Spain for nearly eight hundred years. United States is less than two hundred and50 years old and you can see the degree of racial ad mixture that occurs in the white community. Many people who are passing who want don't want to claim their black heritage. And so the more in North Africa occupying Spain for nearly 800 years before they are expelled right before Christopher Columbus makes his journey to the new world. Um and so it's very possible that Beethoven's ancestry could be traced back there. Now the Beethoven Center at San Jose State says I'm sorry there's no genealogical studies of Beethoven's past. There was no 23 in me for Beethoven the time which were available to the public. We just have the imagery of him and there was indeed a plaster desk death mask of Beethoven made at the time which shows his I guess his his his rounded features, his broad nose, etcetera and people also cite that death mask. In fact, JA Rogers had a picture in his amazing 100 amazing facts about the Negro that you can look at. These are known to the public but the genealogy No, that's still not clear. That's still not clear. But do we need the genealogy? Here's the assumption. If Beethoven's ancestors had a child out of wedlock would they have then constitute the social constructed idea of being negro or black? Um at that time, there were other composers who were called black Mulatto Moors or Blackamors such as George Bridgewater, a famous violin who collaborated with Beethoven Um. a musicologist Kira Thurman from the University of Michigan also says it really comes out of a place in the 1930s when a lot of African American or negro intellectuals and journalists wanted to research the past. So they wanted to find out. They didn't have the genealogy to do it however. Um the research is there and they wrote books about the black past. They they even qualified the the work Job, Joseph, Hayden, and George Bridgewater and other black European composers that we know very little about. But they're still worthy of discussion as is this discussion So. if you could show the next screen some of these composers like Shavalier, their son George, Samuel College, Taylor, that's Samuel College Taylor's on the left. Uh Edmond Dede, Amanda Aldridge, and others show that there were black European composers Um some of them were contemporaries of of Beethoven and others in the more modern era, the late 1800s into the 1900s that we had we have documentation about their heritage and the work that they did. So, can we still claim Beethoven if we have evidence for these? Why don't we have evidence for mister Beethoven Um as I said before Samuel College Taylor who's in the left part of your screen. He said, well, I think because of how we have depicted Beethoven in the past to say that he couldn't be black because there's no evidence or because he was a genius in music. He says, that doesn't quite hold up with what we know. Uh and the the debate continues throughout the uh19 20s, 30s, and 40s. Gets revived again by the civil rights movement. That's right. People as as different as Malcolm X who makes the claim and Stokley Carmichael makes the plane. Both were trying to I think elevate the type of black consciousness and culture and they said, why not? Why can't we consider the evidence that we had if he looks black, maybe he was and perhaps then the names and the the music that he put together would have been held to a different standard if he had operated under the idea that he was black. Do we claim Beethoven therefore? Because the Genie Ollies is there or because of a social construction of race. I'll leave it to you to decide. There have been more cultural analysis of the impact of blacks and people of color in the European context. We know for instance that Queen Charlotte in Britain was black and Charlotte, North Carolina is named after her and so it's not so far a stretch to have now a a TV series based on her and her her impact. It is more exaggerated, let's say, in terms of her influence and her impact But I think the the thought experiment was, if you have someone like Queen Charlotte, and others who of mixed-race heritage but that gets erased from the history. Why not do more research on Beethoven to find out if his music, indeed his heritage were influenced by the Moors or the Blackamors that he had around him. I think that's still where we want to to go forward in this in this discussion. If Beethoven was black as a mantra due to the nineteen sixties and even now as we talk about Black Lives Matter, has this been for Has this been pushed aside? Um do we assume that European culture is inherently superior to black culture and that everything that happened in Germany, in Britain, in France, etcetera, had to be considered white. This is really a recent conceptualization. Back then, there was more understanding between the Mediterranean world, the African world, trade roots, etcetera. And so maybe it was no big deal for them to accept someone like Beethoven who is dark and swirly and wild hair or tangled hair. As you can see in this engraving which probably shows his hair probably closer to to what he had at that time. Um but many folks, again, from the Civil Rights era up to now, up to Black Lives Matter, want to investigate the question. If Beethoven was black, we can create some cultural memes about this. The response has been so vehement that there were some crude stereotypical defacements of Beethoven on a poster that some black students had put up in their room. This is reported in the press as an act of racism back in 1988. Again, I'm quoting from the story by the the guardian. Um so, people are kinda uncomfortable if this claim can be proven or not and they're very very much vested in retaining the European complex of the Beethoven As I mentioned before, many of the other paintings have been adapted or or painted now so it looks as if he was just a man with wild hair. Um as opposed to the the Swathy dark skin musician that he was. Now, many musicologists again I would like to call on folks if we could who have an understanding of music and and the influence. Who could probably do an analysis of him but there's a hole I think in our knowledge base of of Beethoven and others and the influence. Um and I think we're correct in saying most of the people who want to know more about Tato. Beethoven should indeed investigate it. Not because we need to find 23 in me and to exume his body and his bones and and try to find out what percentage from Africa. And I don't believe that that is scientifically valid. I think more we have to accept the fact that the social construction of race allows us to many others not just because of the one drop of black blood but because of the influence they've had on the world and I think that's where Carmichael is coming from. Definitely where Malcolm X was coming from. Uh as opposed to someone like Samuel College Taylor from the nineteen early 1900s was saying because he looks so much like I did as a mixed race person. I have to assume that there was some influence. This is not out of the realm possibility and so I just wanted to open up the doors for these arguments that continue to this day. We do need the musicologist and the the genealogist and the historians but we also need those people interested in black culture and black consciousness like mister JA Rogers who makes this claim. Um so with that Cara and and Bernadine, what I'll do is maybe suggest some of the the websites and the the writings that we we've looked at over the last couple of weeks as we prepared for this show. Um and we'll be happy to share those I think in the in the chat line if we could. Okay. Absolutely. I'd be happy to share this. So, let's dive into some questions. This is obviously a very fascinating conversation and. Yeah. Very passionate one. Um one of the often sided beliefs in terms of the the question of Beethoven Beethoven's potential blackness. Um stems from the what's perceived as the systemic denial of what we would call black genius. Right. Um so the idea really seems to be that Beethoven did not need to have actually been black For the question of his potential blackness to matter. Mm hmm. Uh in facing the of genius and the presumed whiteness of genius. Uh what do you think about that? No, I think that that's right on the mark. The idea that the only musical genius or genius in general has to stem from what we call white epistemology really is flawed. Um I think we're trying to see someone like Duke Ellington, Samuel College, Taylor, Count Basy, some of the other classically trained musicians who chose to perform types of musics that becomes associated with blackness really shows that we we're uncomfortable which we can say that this person could have done quote unquote classical music and then to try to categorize jazz or rhythm and blues or hip hop or or some other art form as being less than genius inspired really is problematic and I think Kara that goes to the heart of where we we want to start with someone like Beethoven Why. couldn't he be black? Why couldn't his work genius on par with other ornacle black or mixed-raced artist. The point is we are less inclined to signify black art as being of a genius variety And so much so that someone like Sun Ra and many of the other modern artists said, it's called black classical music. Um it's not jazz. We're not gonna use that term. That's a term that was sexualized and put in the speakeasies and the the and the the buckets of bloods where this music was played. The the the houses of ill refute. But it's classical music in the way it's instrumentalized and the way that it uses different voices and the way it improvises of a common themes. And if you look at Beethoven I'm gonna step out on a limb here. The way he does his motif even in the fifth symphony. Right. Requires a type of innovative understanding. How can you continue to play the same refrains of that in a way that's not boring or simply repetitive. Um there is there's understanding that many of the things that he did to innovate once they were put to music then people just play it rather statically. Um without any type of inspiration. Um and again for for many people that's what defines classical music. You play it the same way every time and it has the same meter and the same measure and so you know it's gonna happen in at the beginning, you know what's gonna happen at the end. Whereas many other art forms. Some people would say, I'll never play the music the same way twice. In fact, that would just be death to the music. Um we don't know for sure but I I do agree with you. The idea that classical music always fits into a genre that therefore cannot be considered black is problem, problematic. And someone like Samuel College Taylor in 1907. That was his mark of fame. To say you don't know this but I am black and I'm therefore claiming the same genius and the same heritage as Beethoven as others. And that for for him that was a a revolutionary statement. Uh speaking of musicologists, you've you've worked in the need to bring them into the conversation as well. Yes. Um there's musicologist Kira Thurman. Mm hmm. Who writes about this and she makes the argument that those who focus on the racial identity question of Beethoven missed the important legacy of several black composers and Beethoven contemporaries who have she wrote, they received relatively little attention in history up to this point. Um and she argu that instead of asking, was Beethoven black, we could and perhaps should be asking, why don't we know anything about these other black composers like George Bridgewater or Bridgetower, Shivalier decent George, Samuel Tyler, Cool Ridge, Edmund, Dayday, and Amanda Aldridge. Okay. So, yeah. I guess that's the question is why don't we know more about these figures and why do they call into the importance, the question of Beethoven and and why he is so elevated in the musical sphere where his contemporaries and others who were arguably doing the same innovative things as him whether he was black or not, that we kinda shunted to the shadows of of not being known. It's very good and and she write, she asked the right question. If they were white, would we know more about them? It's it's kinda scary but because they are black, they get marginalized, they're not at the same level as a a Beethoven So, therefore, they haven't proven their musical genius. I think so it begs the question from from the musicologist perspective. We don't know about them precisely because they were erased from the I think the the the lineage of what music is supposed to be. I remember researching a black opera star named Ciserietta Jones and she was known as the black Molly or whatever it was. Basically that she was as good as the white opera singers. And you see what happened there was like they couldn't just accept that she was probably better during the 18 hundreds than all of those performers. But she accepted the name because that got her top billing. Uh you to say that she was like the black barber strider whatever. Um just to be humorous. So many of these artists like Bridge Tower and Savallier and College Taylor etcetera. They had a musical genius as well. But they get put into the category of being black and therefore not as good. I remember first hearing about Samuel College Taylor by my eighth grade music teacher. Little man like five foot two. Uh always more black. And and he taught us the American tradition. He said the first American musical tradition was the menstrual show. I wanted to die. The menstrual show where white people were dressed up in black face and trying to form negro songs. He said the reason why he thought it was genius was because the underlying motifs in the music and the performance did come from a place of inno and inspiration. And he said the white imitators were pale imitators. And again he tried to convince me with all his heart. I'm not putting this up here because I believe in racism. I'm trying to tell you there's a musical form beneath it that when whites try to imitate it they couldn't do it. So they blacked up their face. They said different things. He said because they couldn't improvise. They couldn't speak the same language. And so they derided it. And so to me when he he said that, I was like, okay, I'm willing to go with this but I don't want her to sing any of those coon songs. I don't wanna sing about Mister Bones and mister Interlocketer. Um he actually had the eighth grade class dress up and do it and I was like, oh no, I can't I can't be a part of this. He said, alright, alright, alright. You don't have to do that. He says, I understand but I want you to look at this black composer named Samuel Collars Taylor and of course, my jaws were tight then. I was like, I don't wanna look at nobody. He said, no, no, this this is my this is my one of my favorite performers and and composers. And he was British. So maybe I should have started off by saying that instead of saying he was a black composer. And I'm giving it to you. To so that you can you can investigate him. Um so this was a great composer at the time. But he said because of racism. This is where he he winds up being put into a category. Um if people could imitate the composers and also learn about of Scott Joplin at the same time as well. He said, this, if this music was imitated by why it's imperfectly and because it became known as a black art form, it was never given its due. So, that for me, Kara, brings us back to the musicologist pro refine which is like, you wanna say this is a person who is a genius caliber. He is black. His name is Beethoven He. said, but what you, she said, but what you should do is look at these other composers who were as equally talented and skilled, who are unknown and not because they're black but because the the musical establishment doesn't pay attention as it should. I think she called it the great gaping hole, the Beethoven size hole of our knowledge that we just don't know about these people because they get eclipsed by the genius of of Beethoven and Mozart and all the others. But they were playing classical music. Um they they do have a lineage and a heritage that we should be proud about And and should know more about. So I I support her in that and I think she was happy to take the moment inspired by the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Beethoven's birth. And the moment that's been blown up because of the COVID isolation. Where we were really grasping for some news and some more information that would help us be sustaining during these difficult times. Uh Beethoven's fifth is a very demonstrative work of art that seems to have been used time and again during times of turmoil and war. And for it to show up again in two hundred fifty years later, it still has the same resonance and as I said before, a type of inspirational motifs that are unmistakable. It's not just a it's all the other things that happen throughout the musical piece that perhaps a better musicologist than I can talk about what those motifs are really about. Uh I like the question very much. you referenced the the opera performer who was referred to as the black version of of another and that raises another really interesting thread in this conversation is talking about whitewashing versus so-called blackwashing. Yes. Um where whitewashing for the audience is is a term that equates black genius with white reference or white counterparts. So, Saint George becomes the black Mozart. Yeah. Sam McCordridge Taylor because the African Maller. Um the argument there is that that makes black accomplishment a footnote to white endeavors. Yes. Um on the other side of that, then, you have the argument from academics or authors like Nicholas Reinhardt who says that in trying to say that Beethoven may have been black, that's an act of blackwashing, which is seen as an attempt to validate black cultural contributions. Wow. Um which affect denies the capabilities of black genius altogether by assuming it is only possible through the recasting of a white reality. Wow. Yeah. So, all of that That's I was reading the article by Reinhard and and first of all, was stricken by how veterinary he makes the argument against basically saying it's ridiculous to think that Beethoven may have been black and. Mm hmm. Uh makes many arguments against it but what really struck me was his his use of the term blackwashing. Yes. Um so, first, I think my question for you is, how do you view the concept of black washing? Uh because to me, it seems like it's it's typically applied where the figure being recast is presumed to be white. In other words, it's it's a fiction. Yeah. Uh so, a character in a book or a film that people assumed was white is given a black casting and so folks have referred to it as as blackwashing. Yes. Um which seems like more of a a systemic issue than a real problem because it's a it's a systemic issue of presumed whiteness in both creative and historic views of genius, capability, power, all of those things. So, yeah. Um for you is Blackwashing really an issue here or is it the issue that that someone presenting it as in this case? Oh, very good question. So, I think that it's applied unequally or unfairly. Um in the sense that we know very much about those figures in history who are claimed by the white canon if you will or a western civilization candidate. Let me put it that way. Um because before there was whiteness there was the whole idea of the ascendancy of the west. Right? Which was borrowed from the black world. Uh Greek and Mediterranean societies were very much in the Northern African societies and the trade routes across the Sahara and from North to South Africa into the Europe. Very much centered the black world and the white world together. Again, they didn't use those terms. Um it's only the modern affliction of race that causes us to debate. Is that white? Is that black? And so, I can say it's it's an unfair application of saying, well, we wanna know more about black heritage that came out of Africa since all of humanity came out of Africa done. We're gonna have that debate some other time. I'm sure. But the idea that humanity comes out of a an African world and spreads throughout the the continents. You know over several millennia has been if you like it you use the genealogy in proven by the genome project. Um again, I'm not just gonna say that's the final arbiter of the ultimate African orig of people. I think the stories are more important or as important about that. So, the story that hm Alexander Hamilton actually was a Mulatto. That's a blackwashing refrain like, well, how dare you? He was one of our founding fathers and it shouldn't matter what his race was. Well, actually, there's a Broadway show that actually probably highlights why it was important to talk about race among our founding fathers if you will and Alexander Hamilton in particular being raised in a West Indian context and escaping the West Indies to come to America. His genius is renowned. So why couldn't he have been a Milato or someone of mixed-race heritage since his genealogy was in question. This is what Lynn Manuel puts to the fore. I think he could have gone much further by the way but I think he leaves that for a loan after the storm and Alexander Hamilton comes to the US but many of claims of saying, well, now you're blackwashing Alexander Hamilton and that's unfair and unnecessary. Actually, no, I think it's very necessary and it was unfair that he was also whitewashed. Uh huh. Throughout the last two hundred years when we look at the the quote unquote founding fathers and the people who actually fought against real racial division. Um who's not a slave owner and he was one of the founding fathers. That amazing. Um but on the other hand and this is the probably the critique of Hamilton was Lynn Manuel goes much further in the other direction and to say, we can play slave owners who were black. We can play despots who are black. We have these great actors and rap artists and musicians who will do this for you and you'll have a new appreciation for the founding fathers because they'll be played by black men and black women. That is the other thing that I think probably goes too far which is now you've shown that everybody can be despotes on both side of the aisle. Um how far do we go? Um I'm not willing to make Alexander Hamilton my hero but I did enjoy the the play and the music and the and the movie as did many others but it it's kind of kind of uncomfortable at the end of the day to say we're going to humanize the founding fathers for a new generation by using rap and black artists and culture to explain the story that should have been told. I don't think he goes quite far enough to explain the racial dimensions of Hamilton and Jefferson and all the others. He sort of leaves that alone and just does the Hamilton thing where he at Hamilton gets to be blackwashed. Um so maybe that's probably a a skirting on the edge of of saying history has been white white folks for so long. We're happy to see the pendulum swing back again to imagine this world. And in the end of as a footnote, many many people have tried the story of Jesus as a matter of fact. Try to say anybody who's coming out of Nazareth comes out of North Africa comes out of a heritage that is decidedly not white. And so why do we still have the blonde haired hippie Jesus portrayed as that is the proper understanding of people who come out of the Middle East or even use the term Middle East bothers me. It's Northern Africa. It's the Sinai Peninsula and the people there are the Berbers and the Moors and the Jews that were there were part of the African heritage. I mean, they were in Egypt for how many years? hundreds of years. And they wandered in the desert. Those are the burbers. Those were the moors. Those were the North African tribes that they were intermixed with. Um and so are we blackwashing Jesus now? Or are we reclaiming what was already there? Um I think it's more of the latter. Um but again I think a lot of people listening and others would say you put too much emphasis on race that didn't exist in the you know sixteen hundred, 17 00s, 1800s, Well actually it did exist to the way that we understand it. That's for sure. But, you know, the Bible says Jesus had feet like furnished brass, and hair like lamb's wool. Well, that sounds like a North African to me. Um, and, and there been better interpretations that, that would say, we're not trying to blackwash the story of Jesus. We're trying to get a better understanding of people who come from North Africa. and and influence the rest of the world. Like the Jesus of Nazareth. That's where I'll go with that. Yeah. You know, it's it's really interesting because even in just talking it out and talking through the two terms, what really stands out is the difference between what so-called blackwashing seeks to do. Yeah. And what whitewashing seeks to do. Where blackwashing is look at possibilities and looking at, you know, where can black history and heritage and culture find its place in A world that so often says that the pinnacle of of all creativity and good things is cast in a white lens. Right. Um whitewashing is typically associated with a concealed reality. It's. Wow. It's literally defined as the deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about something. Yeah. So, I I wonder in this case and in the full conversation that we're having or that we're having. Um are we really able to equate the two terms in practice and what does what's really the implication of looking at Beethoven either through a whitewashing lens or black washing lens? I think you're right. The implications of looking at Beethoven through black washing or whitewashing. As you say, it's an unequal equation. We're trying to set the record state and if we really do this, ultimately, it will be beyond the physical dimensions, beyond what we understand as race, and more, as you said, about culture and consciousness. Most of the cultures that in the world that have been successful are not monochromatic. They're not just European, not just African, not just you know, Jewish, whatever. They usually have some type of sin criticism that which people are taking what is existing before and mapping something new onto it. Again, I I use the religious examples, the certain gods that were available to people in the old world have been displaced by the new gods and the saints in the new world but people still treat them the same way, right? So, Our Lady of Lupe, right? Could be based on a Mayan or an Aztec or an indigenous group of deities that then become collectively the Mother Mary and so, Our Lady of Guadalupe emerges, right? As a mythological figure who is then instantiated as the mother of Christ. But brown skinned. It's like, well, wait a minute. Like, the other is white skin. It it doesn't equate as you're saying. If we were trying to to look at the phenome of culture and consciousness and how different people equate that. We will see that people always, always project themselves onto that cultural meme. They always project themselves onto the genius of the other and claim it as their own And that's not a bad thing necessarily. It's when we assign a negative or a positive to it based on color and race. That's what we're talking about. And we had this earlier discuss about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. Is there such a thing in an unjust world? And then can you write it by trying to use the new names that are buzzwords for what we were already fighting against? Which was fighting against racism. If you could say we have a new initiative that will fight against racism, I'm all for it. But you say we have a new initiative that's for diversity, equity, inclusion, access, etcetera. It's like you're skirting around the issue. You really don't wanna you really don't wanna fix it. And for me that's the same debate with mister Beethoven It's. not about him being blackwashed or whitewashed. It's what's the history of the consciousness of the music that created a Beethoven And. why couldn't it have been influenced by these other musicians who are part of the at the African world or the African diaspora world. I think that would be in keeping with how culture itself stays alive. Um but I think we also have the idea that It's classical music, it can't change. So, therefore, stop talking about whether he was a black genius or not. It's the music that we should look at, not the color of the musician. You'll hear that. I'm sure in many of the debates at Vancouver from here. You know that's yeah. A challenging point too because so many of the articles that talk about this this question of Beethoven and all of that. Um also talk about the narrative of classical music. Yeah. And really it it comes down to that kind of pointed question of why has the narrative of classical music been so deeply entrenched in the narrative of presumptive whiteness. So while were told when it comes to a figure like Beethoven you, know, it doesn't matter. Stop asking. Stop thinking about that. Why does it have to be a black and white thing? Yeah. There's also still that assumption that classical music is a white thing where like you referenced earlier, jazz, which is a classical form is given color and. Right. Relegated to being a black thing rather than being accepted as a a true classical form. So, how why it has that narrative come to be? It's a good question. So, why the narrative has come to be? It's a question of cultural responsiveness versus cultural appropriation and we know, you know, beyond the shadow of doubt that the art world or the art worlds always influence each other and so it becomes very hard to say, I can only claim that because I'm a European classical artist, right? I can only claim that because I'm a train, jazz artist, or a rhythm and blues person. Most of the cultural innovations in music and elsewhere always cross those boundaries. It always does. But then they become racialized. So will I accept a a white rap artist like Eminem and his genius? Or is he just appropriating a black art form? I don't think that's exactly right. Um the point is he is as good as, you know ABC and we'll put, you know, Biggie and Tupac in there. Is he as good as, that's not the point. It's is he being promoted as being as good as? Um his work is not allowed to stand on its own. It's a white rap artist so therefore, he's held to a different standard than the biggies and the Tupac's and and the modern Naz is etcetera. And it's totally unfair to Eminem. I must say that. But he he has played on it, right? He has played on that as being as good as the others. Um only white. Uh which you know, you can't have it both ways. So, the question of cultural consciousness, cultural appropriation is always there because we are responsible for the artwork and for being I think aware of our audiences and our impact. So, we have to accept the fact that the influence on classical music has come from many of the world that have been segmented, segmented off as being not white and that the classical refrain gets reserved for white audiences and white arbiters of taste. Um many indigenous artist for instance. We're talking about I'm trapped into always painting the same thing about Indian Heritage and when I try to do something different, then, I'm told that's not Indian art, not indigenous art. So, I've used that in my my class last Monday for indigenous People's Day to explain why the the cultures are so important to share and not just to say we're gonna pay how much to indigenous nations but specifically, how are you going to honor that which is important. Um and in this case, the cultural appropriation versus the cultural responsiveness question seems to impinge on the question of race. It's a question of the power as well and we won't get into the music industry. Let's just go with our own individual heads about when you say classical music, how come we know what that is? When you say jazz, you say, ah, there's that noise, right? Or Rhythm and Blues? Okay, I can dance to it. Therefore, but are the Beet part of the blues. Jazz continuing. They knew they were. But the audience was listened to them said no they're not. Because they're white. And so sister Cara we get stuck again. We can't honor the Beatles who are honoring the black artists who are honoring the you know the people that they came from. And and healing that as a as a valuable art form that was bounded in the slave trade. That was bounded in a negative we turned around and made positive. That's the difficult question. We are gonna use race as the shorthand for understanding that and rightly so, we should continue to do that. Until, right? Until justice rolls down like a mighty river And and we're able to actually get what it is that we have have earned. Um and too often, unfortunately, in order to not be cultural appropriated beings we stand on race in a way that you can't appropriate it. Because you then are not part of the black performing community. And again that that gets very hard to to to manage or manipulate. There have been people who, like you say, I think do manipulated. And they do use it to their own advantage. Knowing that that's how people respond to the work they do. Um and that would include the Beyonces and the the other performing artists who have to pay homage to the white world in order to get a market share. I I don't really like that when that happens but you can understand it when it does. So not to take Beyonce down but she she knows what she's doing. She knows what she's doing. Uh earlier before we even started this session, we were having the conversation about how these sorts of conversations, we see them crop up over time and. Yeah. Cultural implications they have. Uh and one of the newest iterations of it has been on TikTok. Okay. where there was a really interesting conversation about the idea of both black genius and the place of the invisible other in the classical sphere. Um for example, there was the the recent trend in I I think it was just last year in two thousand twenty where black creators stopped creating dances for new songs that were coming out because they were just being appropriate or taken and white dancers are being praised for what black creators had made. Yes. And one of the more interesting things from this year was actually a the question that was posed in a comment on some video of why don't black people listen to classical music? And as in response to that you had amber of black content creators. Uh creating videos that had that caption and then showed them dancing to classical music remixing classical music Um sharing and highlighting black classical composers and and so forth. Um so, the question for me is what do these kind of enduring conversations tell us about the modern presumptions of the place. Yeah. Of blackness and modern and classical concepts of culture or culturedness. Uh huh. Um to be cultured is is often presumed to not be of blackness And so how do we appreciate that that presumption? Alright, very good. So, how do we reshape the presumption? Um for me, it's the fact that we are always looking for that thing that is new and and maybe that's part of the human dimension if you will. Um but we we were going to we're innovators of rag time. Uh this thing called jazz or black classical music. Um the blues, rhythm blues gospel. Um yeah, rock and roll. Hip hop. Um I'm using the same name for the same musical art form. Uh People won't say. No, you're not. Well, yeah. I mean, my father would say hip hop doesn't have harmony, doesn't have musicality, it's it's more sound. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just it's not, he was a, you know, part of the Florida A and M marching band. So, he has a certain idea of what music is supposed to do but I say, it's the same continuum from the field shouts to the the chants to the spiritual awakenings that then become secularized and I tend to think those are all part of the black continuum. It's part of a spectrum. It should be understood that way as opposed to being there's a pure art form. It's called, you know, ABC spirituals, gospels, jubilees, black classical music. That's a trap. I mean, brothers are musician and he says, you know, black folks just don't keep their mind on the thing that they've created and create something and then it'll be taken over by someone else and he says, that's okay. He says, cuz then that's a gift to the world. He says, but I wish that we would still honor the things that we make and and share with him and and claim ownership rather than saying, oh, we don't listen to blues anymore. We don't listen to this thing called jazz, right? Soon, we'll say we don't listen to hip hop. He says, there's been no new hip hop innovations in 20 years and you know, I'm arguing with him but he says, no, think body. What has happened is they've turned it into the electronic mode. So, there's no more musicality going on but there's a lot of buttons being pushed. I said, okay. Um I guess I see that. He says, but before, when you had the the tape cassette and the wheels of steel, you really had to use the type of musical skill to sync those things up. Now, you push a button and the computer does it for you and he's and and he's absolutely right. I've I've previous many things on Apple Music that were just like, okay these are samplings and I'm like, I did pretty well, you know? No, that's not my musical genius. That was pushing the right button. So, Kara, I would, I would agree. There's a cultural continuum that we have here that really goes back to the black origins of why we're here and that's the, you know, the beat of the arc. That's why many of the things that we do are very rhythmic or have polytones because of the the African ancestry that we carried with us in the belly of the slave ship. I do believe that. And I think that ultimately people who are alive, who do have a heartbeat, they can also share in that. Um but yeah, it becomes a very fine line then between the cultural gifts that you give and the cultural taking. That is occurring. Um and ultimately, I think the important thing is and most music colleges will agree with this. It's not to say there's only one way to play that music and and and if you stop playing that music, it's no longer black or white or whatever. I think that's what we to break down by saying Beethoven was black or there are many black artists that you don't know. Um I think that's the main thing that we've taken away from. and yes, we are going to innovate TikTok in a way that you can't even begin to imagine but ultimately, that form will be commodified and taken away as well. This is the thing I would say about culture. It it resists what is out there. It gets squashed or assimilated and then once it becomes assimilated, then, we look for something new and that's human nature. It's okay. The problem is once it becomes assimilated, then, it's commodified and sold back to us as if it were a brand-new thing and and that for me is it's my my spider sense going. I'm more wary about TikTok and those places as well for my kids because I said like that, that's just commodifying your taste. It's telling you what you should like and that's what Spotify does. That's what all those things do. They tell you, you like this song so therefore, you'll like these and I'm like, no, I can decide what I like. Maybe, maybe I don't like any of that. So, I I know it's a longer answer you probably need but I do believe that we are still innovating and trying to find something new. This is why Facebook was so scared about Instagram being beaten out by Snapchat or by TikTok. Um they were just so afraid of losing the ten, no, the 12 to 13 year old that they expanded their market base to try to get 10 year olds. And they just didn't realize that by the time the 10 year old becomes 13, they're looking for something new anyway. Yeah. Right? But that was what the congressional hearings were about. Um they were all up in arms about how to get market share and maintain it and so they said, we'll just buy out Snapchat. They couldn't do or we'll just buy out so and so. They couldn't do it. So, therefore, they had retreat to Instagram to try to make that the hottest, newest thing. And to do that, they had to be more intrusive with their algorithms. I, I don't know. That's probably what a music industry person needs to talk about for the next time. But just, as we're talking about it, cultural appropriation and innovation really is a black indigenous thing. We, we try to do something new with what has been Yeah. Uh to wrap us up and to to bring us back to that kind of core question. I wanna go back to the that call of Beethoven was black from the Civil Rights era. Okay. All of those like Stokley Carmichael, Malcolm X, there's a 20 20 article from the Guardian that says that those that that call served as what they said was a grand metaphor designed to unsettle and to uncertainty a disruption of the canonical thinking that gave Beethoven's music such visibility parallel to the invisibility and dismissed genius of black contemporaries. So, to wrap us up, how does that refrain of Beethoven was black, contribute to that dismantling or attempted dismantling of what the article called the deeply ingrained assumption that white European culture was inherently superior to black culture. Oh, very good. So, the idea or the refrain or the mantra, Beethoven was black turns the upside down, upside down world, right side up. It it goes against the the regular culture that says anything that comes out of Europe is is great. Anything that comes from the Southern Hemisphere is tainted and so the Malcolm X and the Stokey Carmichael were saying, oh wait a minute, we're from that world and we have another foot in the northern world and we wanna say we claim both. Uh which is pretty revolutionary or radical. Um and the the the refrain itself goes back to I think the the attempts to try to rename a home, right? To find our way back to the homey and elsewhere by looking at those heroes and sheroes who have already achieved prominence and if we can claim a Beethoven and we sort of unsettle that world that put us in our place that took us from that home into home in West Africa and elsewhere and brought us to the shores and said, you didn't create anything and you're not about nothing. There's no African retentions in what you do and so therefore, you are a complete mongrel, you know, made up people and by claiming and claiming the classical music that is ours in the first place. I think we set that world of fire and say, well, actually, we've created something that you haven't begun to even imagine Uh but we'll start with Beethoven I think that's what Malcolm X in. Stokley Carmichael were doing. Our black culture and consciousness will not be denied. How about that? Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Alright, thank you. Uh oh. Wonderful conversation and I appreciate you sharing all of the the the background, the research, the the stories that led to this question. I do. I do. Talking us through the rest of it. Uh I wanna invite Miss Bernadine on for any closing thoughts or or let us know. Also, Miss Bernadine, if we missed anything. I have nothing. I have thoroughly joyed as always this evening's discussion and I'm walking away even more enlightened. I have to say at the end of this I'm like Wale. He said I'm rooting for everything that's black. And so that's that's what I like to do. I'm rooting for everything that's black. And so as far as I'm concerned Beethoven is a brother. And you know considering geographically where where all of this story takes place Um and if you ever get the opportunity to to walk and and see these spaces with thine own eyes. Um this is an entire culture or history that we have chosen not to give credit to or or attention to And so as we close this out baby queen I I, you know, always say, this is why we do this, to educate, to enlighten, and to inform And so, we always are humbled and to, to these moments to set the record straight. And you know we we want to be aware and we want to celebrate the contributions that we have given to to every area of existing. Um on this plane as human beings. And we certainly have have touched if we do not own the the dimension of of music And anything artistic. So with that sister Cara, I guess we can say good evening. Um I'm done. I I'm I feel good in my soul. That's all I can say. I'm just rooting for everything that's black. Ashe. Ashe. Alright. Uh well, to wrap us up, as we always say, thank you to everyone who participated and and watched along with us, learned along with us, asked any questions in our chat or just share thoughts in the chat. There was definitely some thoughts being shared with us this evening. So, we thank you for participating in that way. Um I wanna remind folks that we have two more sessions coming up this month coming up on Sunday the twenty-fourth. We'll be returning for the the Live Black Experience Book Club where we will be discussing I know why the cage bird sings which was actually a book from September and then the fictional work Devil in a blue dress. Um so, I look forward to having that conversation and and sharing with everyone and hearing some thoughts on those two works. Uh we'll also be coming back on Wednesday, October 27th for a kitchen table talk. The sister's checking in on a number of recent issues that have come up across the nation that we're gonna talk about that evening. So, we invite everyone to come back and join us for that. Um also, wanna give just another reminder that for now, we are streaming live from the Murdoch Community Center Facebook page beginning in twenty twenty-two will be migrating to the Live Black Experience Facebook page. So, make sure you are following that page now. Uh we are cross sharing between the two live streaming here and cross sharing to that new page but beginning in 2022, you will need to be there to continue participating with us in these conversations. So, we look forward to seeing you. Um please pay attention to the messages being shared in the chat now about Um if you enjoy these sessions, please continue continue to consider making monetary donations to help us to continue this work. Um let us know what conversations you'd like to see us have next. We we appreciate hearing from the community about the topics that are important and the conversations that we should be having. Um so, we look forward to hearing from you. Until next time. Uh as always, we invite you to be well, be blessed, and go in grace.
