Becoming Hitler: The Making of a Nazi

all right good afternoon everyone I'm Derek pencil are one of the resident fellows here at the Center for European studies and it is a great pleasure and honor to introduce Professor Thomas Weber well-known to the Center for European studies into Harvard University for reasons that I'll explain in just a minute tom holds a doctorate from the University of Oxford and is currently professor at the University of Aberdeen but he has spent extensive amounts of time both as a visiting fellow or teaching at other institutions including the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton the University of Pennsylvania the University of Chicago the University of Glasgow and most particularly Harvard Tom was a visiting professor here back in 2008 and 9 and once again 2012 to 2015 so he is very much su house' here at Harvard University at the center and it's a great pleasure to host you today although having received the doctorate I think barely 14 years ago tom has published four major books and countless articles his first book the lodge ghetto album won a 2004 golden light award and a 2005 infinity award and then his second book our friend the enemy was the recipient of the 2008 Duke Gavin burg history prize for the best book of a general nature intended for the general public on the history and culture of the European continent and then came his third book Hitler's first war very well known book probably to many of you in the room that is being translated into a total of ten languages the recipient of the 2010 Arthur good site book award of the New York Military Affairs symposium for the best book in military history and that is now being adapted into a fictionalized television series I don't know if any of our fellows at the Center for European studies have that distinction and today Tom will be speaking to us about his latest book quite remarkable book becoming Hitler the making of a Nazi it's being published this week by basic books along with Oxford University Press and most of the research for this book I'm quite happy to say was carried out here at the Center for European studies and at the Weatherhead Center so it's very nice to welcome you back to Harvard Tom we very much look forward to hearing about your book you'll be speaking about the book for somewhere between 30 minutes a bit longer and then we will be able to open up the floor to questions and comments thank you Thank You Derek for this very kind introduction thank you so much for having me back to the center of European studies I'm so delighted that I can speak about my book at the very place where I have researched and written most of the place I should also say that people sometimes ask me when I tell them the where I research and wrote the book and I select they look a little bit in surprise in in surprised at me and I said why didn't you spend three years let's say in Munich and research it there and you would have been surrounded by all these experts and all these documents and my response normal is yes I would be wonderful too but that's precisely the point that precisely wanted to to research and write it at a place like here where there may not be a lot of people working on Hitler but where I would get the kind of inspiration that I thought I needed to to write this book so thank you for all your inspiration so the honor I just have got to find figure out how to now use this thing so Derek pence I mentioned that I had written book about Hitler before and I thought I was kind of done with Hitler at that time and I had shown that this the idea that had been dominant between the 1990s and I suppose the the time I republished my book that the that it was read during the time of the first world war that Hitler had been radicalized and I argued that Hitler returned from the war still being a man very much without a face someone was still fluctuating political ID is someone who was still an awkward a loner someone in whom no one had seen leadership qualities but then as I was talking about my book people kept on saying well if you're right how is it possible that this guy this unremarkable guy returns from the war and yet year later he is the man not pretty much the man whom we all know and I realized at that point that I could kind of describe the problem or I could decedent lay out the parameters but I couldn't really give an answer and it was then that I was interested again and started to try to approach the Enigma of how Hitler became Hitler and I was really trying to I was kind of troubled by the picture that at that point was emerging in research where Hitler was the kind of guy that sure maybe had been radicalized during the war but who then comes back from the war and who's then just full of vengeance and full of hatred and just soaks up all these ideas that are around him in Munich in general and more specifically more specifically in the military in Munich during that time and this so Hitler is there presented as this kind of almost typical product of right-wing politics in in Munich and it's a picture of a Hitler who certainly had a talent soon as a speaker but who beyond that was a man without too many qualities and somehow that that idea just didn't didn't sound right to me and the so let's briefly talk about the leader parameter so the story starts with Hitler returning from the war and in returning to Munich the city where he had settled in in in 1913 before the war and so in a way this is very much the story of the interaction between Hitler and Munich between the end of the First World War and the writing of mine comes but as Hitler returns from the war as other people start to be radicalized in part of course as you will all know Germany experienced of course a revolution at the end of the war an overthrow of the old regime and Munich Bavaria experienced a more radical revolution while revolution had been led by by moderates in Berlin it was led by more radical left-wing leaders in in Munich it was at that point when people started to be radicalized but not so Hitler because Hitler returned from the war and the expectation would have been that someone like him would just be demobilized because most people because of the armistice agreements had to be demobilized at the end of the war and so certainly someone who did not identify with the new regime would have been more likely than not in the case of not professional soldiers to just go home but Hitler desperately wants to - to stay in in the army that's not necessarily a political statement because Hitler really wants to try to escape loneliness Hitler had really no family or friends to go home to sure he did have three brothers and sisters but he had long lost a touch with him they thought at that time he was dead the support staff of regimental headquarters had been his surrogate family during the first world war so now this guy returns to to Bavaria and is very worried that he would kind of is have to return to having no one so he really is desperately trying to stay on in the army and if that means serving the revolution then so so so so maybe it and Hitler stays on even as the revolution devours its own children here we see a photograph where with the high degree of probability or certainty we see Hitler we see Hitler involved here this is the funeral march for quote Eisner the Jewish socialist leader off off the revolution Hitler even stays on Hitler even stays on when in April a short-lived Munich Soviet republic is being established we don't know what 100% what exactly his approach towards tortas regime was my assumption is that Hitler generally had moderate moderate left-wing predisposition at that time but he would not have positively identified with the Munich Soviet republic because of having been to internationalist at the same time he is even standing for office at that time it is during the Revolution that Hitler for the first time ever has a leadership position it is it is then that almost by accident he he detects that he can lead because what is happening is this as s he returns s he returns sorry as he stands as he time and time again runs the risk of t being demobilized that there is an opportunity to stand as a representative of the soldiers of his unit and that he jumps at it because that decreases that the risk of being demobilized and then Hitler suddenly realize he can functions he can lead suddenly he so it's almost by trial by error that he starts to learn the art of leadership but let's go back to kind of the political aspect of all this so he certainly has even if he does not positively identify himself with the ideas of the Munich sub Republic he also at the same time has no problem serving it unlike some of his closest collaborators and friends he does not leave Munich at that time in order to join a right-wing militia that puts down the munich service republic but but he stays stays on so this is still a guy who is certainly not radicalized in the way that we all know my argument is that hitler was politicized and radicalized in the summer of 1919 and the reason for that was the or the trigger i should say not the reason the trigger was the the the ratification in the signing of the ratification of the decide treaty my argument is he is quite different from the argument people sometimes make when they say well look some that was the beside treaty was too harsh therefore the this there's a direct line between the two world what that's not my point I don't even think that Davis I treaty was it was certainly wasn't harsher than the piece that the Germans had imposed on the Russians the previous year the real point about Versailles here is is that or the ratification of it is it it signifies to Hitler as many other Germans that Germany really has lost the first world war because until then a lot of Germans thought that the war had turned ended in some kind of draw maybe some one that wasn't particularly favorable to the Germans but a draw nevertheless and the belief was that the Americans and Wilson in this eye in Paris would make sure that the Germans would get a just just peace so is it a total shock when in May the peace conditions are first being published and then maybe more importantly when people are kitna realize the German government has no in Parliament they have no choice but to sign it and to to to ratify it and as a result of that Hitler so this is kind of Hitler's political epiphany he asked himself two questions one is how could Germany have lost the first world war but maybe more importantly because he doesn't just want to refight the last war what would it take in order to recast Germany in order to make Germany safe for all times so what I'm really trying to to do here is I'm trying to take Hitler seriously as the kind of man of ideas who is sincerely trying to understand the nature of things who's who is genuinely trying to understand the suppose the sources of defeat but also how supposedly people were living in a rapidly changing world one that would as we would say today would see the emergence of a small number of super powers and that Hitler was honestly trying to figure out what it would take to recast Germany so in that sense I'm trying to present kind of Hitler as a as a man of ideas this is obviously not to say that the that that it's a rational view obviously it's based on irrational first Princip but he puts them together in once you accept these irrational first principles he kind of puts them together in a in a way that has some kind of inner coherence and he berry since he honestly and sincerely tries to engage with ideas this is a man who every day of his life at the end of the day even late at night is reading books people often say well he didn't really beat them properly he didn't read them from cover to cover sure that's all true and yet it remains mains true that he felt an urge to engage with these books with these newspapers on a daily basis at any rate so my argument is is that as a result of these two questions he becomes really someone who is searching for answers he is someone who is trying to figure out what it would take to recast Germany and he comes up with two answers as to two to his two questions the first one is that the primary source of Germany's domestic weakness is the influence of the Jews and the primary source of Germany's external weakness is insufficient territory in sufficient manpower and insufficient resources and those two questions and those two answers provide the guiding principles of his life until the day he dies in 1945 the in his anti-semitism I talked a little bit more about the quality about about this a little bit later but I would I want to briefly mention at this point the the anti-semitism he uses is while not original it's different from the most popular brand of anti-semitism in Munich at that time the most popular brand is anti-bolshevik anti-semitism as a result of this idea that the immunities of Republic was all just a Jewish endeavor but Hitler doesn't really care about that at least not at this point later he does what hit as Hitler is trying to figure out the the architecture of the world the a hidden architecture of the world he's he's exposed to ideas from which he kind of pick selectively like from a buffet of ideas and one of the ideas that really kind of make sense to him is the harmful influence of Jewish ideas he's really obsessed with I guess ideas of political economy and of Finance so he thinks that it is these Jewish ideas that are corrupting Germany that they are they are leading to inequality Germany that are holding Germany back and that ultimately prevent Germany from surviving in this internal competition of who will emerge as one of those superpowers Hitler believes that one of these superpowers will be the anglo-american world and ultimately what Hitler really wants is he wants to make sure that Germany will be put on equal footing with the anglo-american world and for that to happen these things do you do de ISM Jewish ideas really have to be fully purged from Germany otherwise Germany will not survive but interestingly initially he does not interest in the initially did not think that Germany on its own could survive and be one of the super powers what we'll come back to that in a minute what I first wouldn't really want to talk about a little bit first of all why I think that these idea of that Hitler was just this typical product of right when politics in Munich didn't quite work here we see on the right this kind of short man he's the guy who kind of let the genie out of the bottle he's a guy called Karl Mayer Hitler's commanding officer in the propaganda unit in post-revolutionary munich and we often hear that it was really Hitler which we just exposed to his ideas and the ideas that were floating around as I'm trying to show in the book is is is that these propaganda units were surprisingly politically heterogeneous of course not all ideas polical areas were represented in them but a great variety of different ideas were represented in them and Hitler picks from them selectively another reason why I think that this idea that he's just suddenly has found in you both literally and metaphorically in the post Revolutionary Army is this guy this guy is a guy called Michael Keo or did we know how to pronounce the Irish names but the he's an Irish volunteer in the German forces he had been a POWs in Germany during the first world war and had then joined had Ted become had joined an Irish Brigade that then was dis souls but he stayed on and in 1919 when he was in the Bavarian rice where he rescued Hitler from being beaten up when speaking to two to two soldiers as as as a propagandist in the summer of 1919 so clearly not he was not just talking to like-minded - like-minded people another reason why I think this idea doesn't how it work is his is his talk at camp I felt we often read that Hitler is being sent there late in the summer because there is a report about about his anti-semitic speech we give here it's mentioned everywhere because this is the first known anti-semitic statement by Hitler but the and for that it certainly is of significance but this idea that he now there talks to returning POWs who are in this camp and in this camp I mean German soldiers who returned from having been pure w's abroad and that this is huge success doesn't do doesn't work because the commander of the camp decides as the propaganda unit including Hitler arrived from Munich is that he just doesn't trust them he just think that the the Hitler and his peers can't be led anywhere near these returning POWs so he basically just has Hitler talk to the guards off off the camp in the and and and from them he sure he gets a positive response so Hitler is still a man who's very much searching for a new for new home a man who is searching for political answers to these two to two big question initially as he is searching for a new home he actually tries to join a different party the German Socialist Party but they turned him down and it is really only in the late summer when he's being sent to observe the meeting of the nascent Nazi Party in this back room and with Rubio this is a very small group I mean probably the same kind of number that that are in this place now so this part is kind of a misnomer there so this meeting in this back room and he's supposed to just kind of observe the meeting but what then happens is is that halfway through the meeting someone gets up and basically makes a case for Bavarian separatism for Bavarian independence and Hitler is so incensed by this that he just jumps up he starts to lay into this guy and the people are just and throughout how he has got to go at him he the guy halfway through hit laughing a go at him just leave leaves the place and people just cheering at him Hitler finally again almost backs and and has found a place that provides him both with the kind of with with a home a place to fit in but also it provides him with pullet with with with with Sylar with a political home because even during the First World War when Hitler had been kind of searching so I wouldn't do it when he may have been seen as an awkward lone or even my people liked him even at that time he had he had told constantly about international affairs and so on it's just that no one had taken him seriously but now suddenly people were really connecting with them suddenly Hitler had found a home and one of and another reason why this kind of searching of in your home is so important is the can be shown to the case of the German girl from New York he Halina hunting all the you may be more familiar with her husband put she Hamish dangle who lay typic who of course attended Harvard who became Hitler's Foreign Press chief and because he had an extraordinary talent later when he was back in America and had broken with Hitler of writing books in which he would in which everyone else everyone but he himself would look bad and but in a way as we looked at kind of the the papers of hilina Hamish dangle we realize Elena Hamish tangle was far more important for Hitler because again Hitler was really searching for a place to fit in he was for about a year and a half he went to her apartment every day and and and they would sit down together they would have meals they would talk he would play with with their son so Hitler's a strange guy who on the one hand can't really keep up contact with his family who can't keep up contacts over many years who can't have relationship with people on a kind of a horizontal fashion and yet who constantly tries to find a home tries to find people to intermingle with but the s time is racing I want to to move on to talk about Hitler as a political operator because the again the the view that we're normally presented with about Hitler during this time is this this is a guy who's full of vengeance who maybe knows how to give a good speech but who other than that has no idea about the nature of politics who also has note no design yet to become a leader who thinks that he's a drummer for someone else and what I'm trying to show in the book that view is really quite wrong Hitler very cleverly so Hitler quickly really picks up what the maybe instinctively maybe through systematic studying the nature of political life and observing other people and he quickly figures out how he can play the system how he can create a system for himself he pays lip service to this idea of being the drummer for someone else all the while creating a narrative an expectation for a totally new kind of leader and at that time there was this longing in Germany for four four geniuses to emerge to become to to lead Germany out of misery I'll tell you many what the genius is according to to the definition of the time the idea here was across political party lines that the older leads whether they were left-wing or right-wing clearly had had messed things up what it would need would be it would be the emergence of a genius a genius with someone with without any pedigree without someone who was not an aristocrat someone who had not been to some fancy college or university someone who came literally out of nowhere what innate qualities to understand the nature of things this is also why mine camp is so important that it's it's told as an autobiography as the story of the boy of town upon him who is grew while growing up in a kind of way of a building so man has all these revelations about the hidden architecture of the world which he then can apply to lead Germany out of misery and Hitler kind of in a political sense in a brilliant way creates his expectation of this new kind of leadership the only problem is is that Hitler kind have its head mascara at the time he would have to establish himself because in 1923 he suddenly realizes there's a wide spread expectation for a political overthrow there is an attack that's a communist attempt to start revolution in Germany but it's based on orders received from from Russia but there's also various right-wing attempts underfoot to overthrow the political system particularly so in the very end in Bavaria there's a kind of an unholy alliance of Bavarian separatists who basically ultimately just want to exploit the situation to bring sovereignty back to to Bavaria and the same way that had been true before the First World War to be finally masters in their own own own home again in their own house again and of German right-wing nationalists and is onto these kind of movements at pitler latches on to pretending to be just the drummer for them all the while creating this expectation of this new kind of leadership but what Hitler had realized as I had realized in the summer of 1919 23 was that at this point he really only had been a celebrity in Munich and in Bavaria people in the rest of Germany started to talk about him but ultimately they didn't even know what he looked like because at that time Hitler did not allow himself to be photographed and he had not talked about his own life and so Hitler quickly realized that he had a real problem and if you want to be a national leader people better know what you look like here we see a page from a German satirical magazine where people were making fun of the fact that anyone you will Hitler looked like this is a photo spread to say what did what does Hitler really look like but so Hitler reversed this build of a boat and had a propaganda postcard being printed circulated them in tens of thousands of copies and fascinatingly so also wrote his first autobiography a very short or - autobiography it's it's just really the introduction to this collection of speeches being published in the late summer of 1923 what Hitler did again was he wrote this piece where he ultimately presents himself as this genius SS German Messiah he specifically compares himself to - to Jesus of course it doesn't look very good - - if you say if you say yourself I am the Messiah so what he does is he find someone else who who the guy on the right who agrees to give his name to this autobiography which and his publishers a part of a by this right-wing conservative writer Victor van kaabah and so he does that in order to again - to establish himself in a non-inertial stage end of of remaking the case that it is he who could for who could fill the gap that he had at prior to that is so we really see here a very skillful and conniving political operator and so let me just jump let me skip talking about the poach in 1923 because I realized I don't have that much time left and briefly talk about the so after the failed Putsch of 1923 he Hitler in a way is facing total disaster because the pooch had been premature he and the problem was even that the people did not associate him with the pooch Ludendorff the First World War general with whom he occurred this out was the person who got all the credit every newspapers in Germany who referred to the Ludendorff punch and Hitler first was was was was also trying at the trial not so I am what I should upset is is the what then happening is in the trial everyone is trying to blame Hitler also all this German a Bavarian conservatives and so well nothing to do with us was all Hitler first which was totally untrue and first Hitler is also trying to defend himself against that but they suddenly realize that hang on this is actually a great moment this is pre present here's a national stage for me and it's great if everyone blames me for something I haven't done because now suddenly I can present myself as the German and Messiah at the German national year so within a few weeks the Ludendorff touch and the Ludendorff trial turns into the Hitler push and the the the Hitler trial and it is then of course while in Landsberg that he writes this kind of buildings home on where he tells the story about the boy from her from Brenau who comes to save Germany the what I want to talk about over the last few minutes is a little bit about the emergence of Hitler as political ideas again I think the here we see a picture that will hopefully look familiar to at least everyone it's a Center for European studies which is of course from the other end of this building we this is from the morals at the other end of the building done in the 1930s by have just forgot the first name Lewis Rubinstein and it's supposed and it's basically it's it's an anti-nazi memorial and this dwarf elaborate from from from Wagner is supposed to be Hitler so Hitler is being presented here presented he has a kind of spiteful dwarf again this guy full of vengeance but I think it's ultimately viewed as doesn't quite work this is a guy who you were serious about ideas and who was but whose ideas still continued to evolve one of the fascinating stories from my book at least fascinating for me is the story of Hitler's secret Russian collusion here we see Hitler in the autumn of 1923 together with the wife of one of the pretenders to the vacant Russian throne and in fact Hitler closely collaborated with her husband in in the early 1920s as well as was her as well as with other russian russian émigré s-- in in munich the story is often told here of Baltic Germans and their influence yes these Baltic Germans are important too but they're primarily important because they build up these contacts what I think is far more and for a far more important ultimately is the connection with these guys because what this brings us back to the question of how could Germany be put on equal footing with the anglo-american world in this rapidly changing world and Hitler just initially thinks Germany and its own is just not big enough so he thinks that it would take a permanent and all-encompassing alliance with a restored Tsarist Russia in order to be on on equal footing with the anglo-american world this is what it would require for Germany to to to to survive and the reason why I think this is so revealing is because it reveals also the nature of Hitler's racism and as well as his his anti-semitism the point here is is that often hitler's drive to the east hitler's colonialism hitler's grabbing of territory in the east is being presented as a resulting from hitler's racism but i think it's the other way around it's ultimately a function of it it's ultimately a post facto a post ex facto justification for it because when hitler realizes in 1924 in Lundberg that the soviet union is there to stay Lenin is that but the regime is still there at that point it decides well I suppose then if we can't have this alliance with them then we have got to to to defeat them we have got to grab their territories we have to color colonize them into Hitler almost literally overnight therefore turns Russians turn slaves into subhumans Hitler really had had no problems with Russians and Slavs until that moment in time Hitler's racism really had been a kind of dualist racism between Germans or Europeans and Jews and it is here for a gasp ultimately politically expediency or opportunism that the nature of his racism totally changes and in any way it's tragic if we think about how many tens of millions of Slavs and including civilians were being killed by Hitler how this anti Slavic racism came into existence but I think this also sheds light on to the on the emergence of Hitler's anti-semitism because the the racism against Jews had been there from the beginning and it really was a constant I do argue that there is a possibility that initially his anti-semitism for the first euro so after his admitted conversion might possibly have been almost metaphoric in character this was that this was outwardly more about Jew Jewish ideas and Jewish bodies with to be in mind that for instance one of the primary influences on Hitler's used in Stewart Chamberlain he would for instance say privately not every Jew is a Jew and you can be a Jew without being a Jew so he's ultimately saying yes we're using the word the language of racial anti-semitism but ultimately this is really about ideas and it's possible that for the first year or so of his anti-semitism Hitler may have seen this in similar veins in but I think then things really change and I think Hitler's radicalization of his anti-semitism is different from the radicalization of some ways others ideas because the some of his other ideas radicalize in almost as a result of how he gives his speeches and his narcissism he feeds off audiences in speeches he responds he looks to war where he gets the biggest applause or the biggest responds and then the next time really focuses on that and downplays other aspects this is Bo's I think because of his narcissism but it's also because Hitler's trying to distinguish himself and the not the nice Nazi Party in the busy marketplace that right when politics is in Munich I think this leads to radical to to a cycle of radicalization but I think in anti-semitism the case is different and the reason why I think we know this is well not only because of what we can infer from this kind of Russian collusion but also because Hitler in private talk is talks more radically about the Jews and in public he of course it retox extremely radical in in public but in private he is even more radical i already present two examples in the book since then I have realized that there's at least two more examples where we're kind of out of time I can maybe talk more about this in the Q&A if you're interested but he's outwardly saying privately if it was up to him he would really prefer to kill the Jews I I would argue that at least from 1920 or 21 onwards there is a preferred final solution for Hitler that is genocide all he is saying he is saying privately it would really be the best thing that we can do is to kill all the Jews and he comes up with this kind of he describes it in gory detail happy to expand on this later if you want to in but he does crucially he does not do so in public therefore actually I do argue in the book that the the wrote ouch which may have been long but it it was arguably less twisted than 10 people often argue you may say well yes but isn't a problem here that for instance in the nineteen the peacetime years of the Third Reich Hitler is perfectly happy to accept Jewish immigration from Germany that is true but I think the it's it's easy to square as a circle here because what Hitler says in one of those four cases he basically says the the best thing would be to kill all the Jews but it's not possible I've looked it from all sides but it's just not possible so what he's saying there is he has a preferred final solution because that would be the best way to make sure that the the primary source of Germany's domestic weakness is being removed that Germany can be one of those superpowers but if it's not possible then he's willing to accept second or third past final solutions which would include immigration from Germany but I think what it also means that if the situation ever arises that there would that that genocide would become possible where there anticipated by Hitler or not would mean that at that moment Hitler would jump at it and I also do think that there are reasons to believe that in 1940 1941 as the final solution emerges that Hitler is a more central figure than he's often presented presented so I think there is a far more direct line I'm not saying I'm not trying to make an return to the kind of a crude version of intentional ism where Hitler is just like has everything spinning everything out and then just evil deviously planning step by step that's not my point but my point is is that he has he has a preferred final solution he would if the situation comes up he would jump at it I think there's also a developmental logic in his policies that he may or may not have realized himself that his genocidal and also is my final point on this this idea that ultimately the killing process in 1941 starts with initiatives from below and is then just condoned by Hitler and their estimates the extent to which Hitler had sub set up the system in the first place where the only policy challenge or the solution credible solution to the policy challenge that these guys have on the ground as a result of the older sir titla had given was with a general title and I would be happy to elaborate that but I'm really out of time so the therefore I look forward to your questions well thank you for this wonderful overview of the book since I'm up here I'm actually going to I'm afraid once the questions start I don't get a word in so I'm gonna ask the first question I mean one thing has to do with in some ways it sounds like your book deals with the issue of what today is called radicalization and how rapidly really exponentially it can occur that people who are operating in one universe that we consider to be normal how quickly they change and of course usually we assume that there is something they were there there are predisposing factors these things don't come from from nowhere and for him to have gone from zero to 60 in five seconds if you could reflect a little bit more on on these pre did predisposing factors also a little bit about his family um it's perfectly normal on people do often abandon their blood family and seek surrogate families that's actually very common but again is there a specific reason in terms of family trauma or family dysfunction because sometimes when people actually behave this way when they're leaving a family and seeking a surrogate family it's often a suggestion of some that are an indication of some kind of deep dysfunction I know I know that you're trying to argue not on a psychological level but this you're interacting him placing him into a specific context in which he is able to transform himself very quickly specifically the context of two forms really I saw the connection between their sigh and the survival of the Soviet Union in the wake of Lenin's death that he simply cannot deal with the destruction of wishful thinking that on the one hand Germany lost the war but they didn't lose the war and their side drives home to him that in fact they did lose the war and this seems to have a traumatizing effect on him just as the fact that the Soviet Union it turns out that he's convinced himself it's not going to survive and then it does again there's something I don't want to distract you too much from the more contextual to the essential but there's something very odd going on and a man for whom it is so difficult to live with the frustration of desire to live with disappointment this is not a normal reaction to disappointment so anyway because I think you don't throw it open to the floor thank you for those quite great questions in a way you have kind of immediately zeroed in or the kind of issues where I kind of feel frustrated that I don't have a better training in psychology and psychiatry and in order to be able to kind of fully make sense of the kind of questions that you have been asking I mean the this frustration of desire I mean I never kind of quite concept right this way but I think that's a great way of putting it but let's look at this question in in order the predisposition ephie Chur sore factors yes I think that that plays a role I think there's a lot of things that certainly start to at least be dormant in Hitler during the First World War where he may not have quite have necessarily settled on particular the answers but he would have been being being exposed to exposed to them and would have also been searching for them it would have been searching for answers we do know that even at that time he had been deeply interested in politics so I think in that sense it's not like suddenly that so that this is this is kind of empty slate who suddenly now in 1919 is is being kind of exposed to all these ideas and has got a scratch cause but he has got all these kind of building elements in his hand which not has is he'll he had been quite put together yet but who which now can easily put together I think it's also in that contacts that we need to we do need to talk about both his childhood and his time in Vienna the I think ultimately forget Harmons idea that she was that he wasn't radicalized in in Vienna yet or his idea that he had all these Jewish friends is absolutely correct but that is not to say that these that he hadn't been exposed to these ideas that he had not been exposed to ways of thinking about the world through this I think also generally ideas of political economy inequality all those kind of issues that he's then really kind of focusing in 1919 were discussions that he would have been exposed to Indiana I think in we also need to there is of course alter their political constants of continuities from his childhood or adolescence one of them is his Penn German idea as Penn German in a kind of non party line this kind of really idea of wanting to bring all Germans together under one roof that plays a role also this kind of rejection of internationalism that is for instance comes up in one of these first world war letters I think it's misunderstood generally as a specific rejection of social democracy which I don't think it is but I think it is a using the language of today it's a sentiment of anti globalism that had been emerging with Hitler that all you was with Hitler during the war which he had not fully categorized yet but I think ultimately his also this his ways of thinking of political economy his ways of the end ziering in of on Jews in 1919 is a continuation of this struggling with what we would call today globalism and the last thing I want to say is this the something I just saw I briefly allude to in the book because if I spoke about this mark more explicitly people would rightly kill me is the is is the impact of Hitler's missing year between we don't really know what happened to Hitler between 1912 and 1913 and I think there are good reasons to believe that something very traumatic did happen during that time and but it's difficult of course now to kind of speculate on how this was interacted with all these other factors if we don't know exactly what it is that that was traumatic doing at that time in terms of his family yes a lot of people have dysfunctional families and and rather are together with friends but with Tim things go much further than that I mean the when he first actually does show up on the doorstep of his sister couple of years after the war in Vienna it just knocks on her door she is totally perplexed because he thought her brother had died several years ago and the only time there is a reunion I mean here's some some contact with her some contact of course with his half-sister because of course he offenses his knees but the only reunion of the entire Hitler for surviving Hitler family happens I think in 1927 or 1928 the party rally and everyone they all think that great finally we're together and then they all show up in in Nuremberg they meet up with Hitler and all Hitler's does is to say well I got you together because I want to tell you that you should not exploit your name and you should not take any advantage of being a Hitler and then he dismisses them and they never have a reunion again and I wished I could really answer your question I wished I really knew what the source of this family dysfunction was the as you know and I have been talking quite a bit with NASA gommi in Boston someone a psychiatrist who works on bipolarity I think exactly I think his argument that Hitler was with suffering from bipolar disorder is plausible whether it's true I don't know is but it is plausible and I think it made to some extent expand explain certain kind of difficulties of of relationships but it would still not explain quite a dis for this this dysfunctionality of the family and if you have an answer to it i would love to hear it my problem with his work is that everybody is bipolar yes it's a bit like that too Gaby political leaders bipolar maybe they all are and I don't want to monopolize I mean there's lots of people who have questions so me yeah I have terrible I'm gonna start in the back use the word suddenly he's right wing milliard so could use people can you elaborate on the nature of that transition and how it shows up in the ideas that you put emphasis on and then the other thing is you know not only is sort of this idea that he came out of nowhere but he had it seems some help some assistance in moving through this transition to a place of preeminence and other you know different historians have written about that in different ways Noman for example what do you have to say about the forces that enabled Hitler that supported Hitler's rise and you know you put a lot of emphasis just sort of the Biograph every story but what about the sort of context you how you see the importance of those elements which did they play an important role in placing him in a position where he was needed as with regards the first question about the left from the right wing bit is is the I think the this kind of move from left to right becomes in a way far easier to explain if we actually stop using those terms it's the one of my colleagues in Aberdeen was kind of suggesting what it was too difficult whether I could write these revolution chapters without using the word left and we're right whenever where would you really just trying to say what I really mean was that and if we look at the what Hitler really I suppose at this the kind of ideas that are attractive to him their output Lee collectivist they're not internationalist they're they're national but we also have to be in mind of course that certainly national Bolshevist in post-world War Germany had these non international his views even moderate mainstream social Social Democrats had this kind of embrace of the nation in this kind of the if we I think basically ideas that are collectivist that embrace the nation in that are ultimately anti-globalist are attractive to him and if we look at it from this perspective I think it becomes far less surprising that he is flirting with different political ideas on the left and the right and it also immediately explains why it says not an empty political slate the liberal Liberal Party would have just been inconceivable that they would have been attractive for him even a traditional conservative party would have would have been difficult to see how that would have been provided at home and certainly a radical left-wing internationalist party also wouldn't fit the mold but the wider influence in a way the I would love to talk about it but I feel I would have got to give like a three-hour lecture but I'll try to do it in two son and says is the it's difficult not to do it in the biographical sense because it is linked to influence of particular people it is linked to the influence of for instance of his paternal mentor Dietrich Eckart it is linked to two other key influences during this time but in a way I could almost link the this questions to your first question about how he kind of moves for between these different ideas I think it's basically generally the political ideas that are floating around in interwar Germany about political economy about collectivism about the space of about about the nation and about geopolitics to which Hitler is being attracted and Hitler is kind of particularly to attract the two people who have kind of an overall view you the kind of people like you used in Stewart Chamberlain and his famous book the the foundations of the 19th century this kind of all-encompassing ways of trying to to to make sense to the world I know that I'm not doing justice to your question but email me and I'll give you a longer answer because across history and present as in thought this kind of thinking is important to understand I wonder if you could clarify something for me that I've heard that I've seen his paintings I think they're quite remarkably good and yet it's been said that he was told how terrible his paintings were and this could do a number on someone's psyche and I'm wondering how much this could have been part of this picture of maybe his break with them with the Jewish community I didn't know where he was painting I don't know who told him that his paintings were terrible but I also wonder in combination with that was he looking to say to certain European countries look people I'm I'm for your views about Jews and therefore you recognized me Hitler as someone who's part of your community therefore pat me on the back and help me accomplish so I throw that out and I could sure use your hmm it's a difficult question to answer because the his rejection as an artist clearly was very important for the making of it and not just because of the obvious counter factor that you could connect it with in I mean this goes back to two issue said also earlier their pencil ahead and had had had raised about how he deals with rejection how he deals with the kind of collapse of dreams and he's obviously not very good with that Hitler is generally someone who holds grudge against people for the rest of his lives I mean part of the reason why for instance Hitler does Hitler doesn't really embrace this kind of beyond paying lip-service these kind of Nordic ideas or even like donors who want to read desperately want to support him he happy kind of accepts their money but doesn't really want to hang out with them because he all associates with them with the party wing that initially in 1919 we're sliding him was trying to cut him out you would think like a couple of years later who cares if they all want to support you why don't you just go along with that but he doesn't he kind of grudgingly pays lip service to because he knows he needs their support but he just can't let go he could just can't deal with that kind of rejection the same is true with the rejection from that small party that I mentioned earlier the real reason why this why this matters is because it kind of understands more I explains why Hitler is so desperately trying to prevent on 22 22 23 the merger with this part in another party which all the other Nazi leaders wand and he just sort of like puts up a sting and incursio or describes and there's a prima donna who just throw his faiths but he is not just a prima donna who's throwing fits he's doing this because well I guess maybe to some extent he is because al-qaeda's all goes back to this against him of this kind of rejection but the problem is as risks regards to being turned down in art school but maybe also for his art of being appreciated we don't haven't have not in we are in enough information about who exactly was sliding him there there's not some case where some famous Jewish collector said look your art is just a joke or something like that could ever happen sure but we just don't know so in that sense it's and I'm afraid I probably can't quite answer that question there certainly have been suggestions that the that there was rejections from particular Jerusalem it charm what at a trauma traumatic period in our s life that would have contributed to it I again I don't want to think that it would explain everything because ultimately I think he precisely things he asked got this whole encompassing way that you really have got to solve the problem once and for all but whether that may weather those kind of experiences from the past this kind of being slighted in the past may explain why 1919 he is picking from this kind of rich buffet of ideas rather than just wondering that's a strange thing to assume so there must be evidence I mean although you said not to use these the the big frustration about Hitler's time during the revolution is is that the surviving evidence is so fragmentary because Hitler very diligently destroyed any evidence that you could and in mine camp or he's not exactly briefed about his own life he he just rushes through the revolution will hear assay is about his own expense evolution would fit literally fit on the back of an envelope which of course is telling in and of itself but doesn't answer the question so the surviving pieces of evidence are fragmentary and they're often based on later recollections and the question now is how we how we align those pieces of fragmentary evidence for instance with this with this piece of a photograph and so with this photograph the problem is of course how do we know that this is Hitler I mean we could also ask if this is Hitler what what exactly does it mean that he is there but let's not even go there and say it's this Hitler and it's difficult to say I mean it's someone who looks like Hitler but he's also blurry so clearly there were a lot of other soldiers who were roughly that size and had a moustache and who wants their grainy would look like Hitler the the evidence in this particular case is based on the son of the photographer saying in the 70s I believe this is Hitler weather the weather the guy we wanted weather now the Sun but now how do we know that the Sun first of all how do we know the Sun was not trying to make this more important than it is and second of all how do we know that even if you honestly think that is a Hitler how what would be his piece of information and so you could say well then we should maybe just dismiss this this particular photograph in Interpol but if we take that approach we would inevitably have got to dismiss all pieces of evidence because ultimately all pieces of evidence relating to Hitler's period in the revolution are Fe there's photographs where it could or could not be Hitler they are they are recollections of people from later on where we don't know exactly whether they're true there are there stuff from conrad Haydn's accounted the 1930s where because he was protecting his source as well and I'm in emigration he wasn't fully disclosing them so it's difficult again to verify or falsify them and so if we take all of that out all we would would know is from some documentary evidence that he was serving in this unit and that he was standing for office and also friends I think we could still even do quite a bit with that because for instance when he was standing for office now of course we know does that mean he is the spokesperson that sometimes is argued of all the people who were kind of secretly standing against the regime or who were right-wing but we're a difference into this context is I look at election results in the Bavarian elections for those for those soldiers because at that time they had been special polling officers for soldiers that are still in the army so you can you can look at what the what the unit that voted for Hitler how they voted in the election and I forgot the exact figures at the top of my hat but I think about 80 percent vote for a four left would moderate or radical left-wing parties so in that sense it would it would be inconceivable that they would have voted for Hitler if they're all thought that Hitler was really a secretly right-wing so it's really a combination of all these kind of pieces of evidence and putting them together where I think a picture emerges where there is a high probability that Hitler in fact I mean at the very least he served though but that he also at that point would had at least been seen by others as having a moderately left-wing predisposition but this is ultimately a question about probability and plausibility which is very frustrating I have three may I got you two down and I've got Jamie okay I'll try to be faster in my office just like so Jamie and everyone every everyone down but that's Jamie I think I have a question if you could never like what you just didn't response to Daniels question to kind of walk us through the evidence except I have a question that kind of relates what Derek earlier which was I'm curious of why you put the radicalization which happens very racked rapidly in the summer of 1919 around the Treaty of Versailles why was it not related to the Soviet republic you know the the icepad so that marching around very at the same time in April and May why why why do you see it as the Treaty of Versailles that's kind of the catalyst for this radicalization happens too fast German politicians the government resigns right when the treaties presented ends in May I think of 19th but but why why do you why do you have this radical flow and then kind of in a different vein of something I was also thinking about the idea of Hitler as a man of ideas but you depict him as a man of ideas almost at least what you presented today is a man of ideas whose ideas get frozen when he writes my humph and it doesn't seem to evolve past that at least in what you've talked about today and I was curious you know you argue the genocide alerts are there early all these things that we amad we see in Hitler they're very early can you talk about things that you do think if Hitler really is a man of ideas his ideas must have also changed later in the 1920s and 1930s and can you talk about things that did change where you see him interacting with other things like go beyond your book and how unfair question Joella question and as regards to the question of the a why Versailles you are absolutely right to us to answer that to ask that question because in a way this is a similar in a way it is very similar to Daniel's questions about the evolution of the evidence is almost more fragmentary for the summer of 1919 this is in a part based on life courtesy don't forget any of my kind of bodies of the pieces of evidence or of my argument this is in part based on timing on on ideas that he subsequently uses the I I think for and I'll get back to that in a second if this was a rejection of Bolshevism end of the experiences the subunits of a republic we would expect that his first political statements from the late summer would focus upon those but what if who for instance look at the gambling later so the first anti-semitic letter which is this kind of three or four page letter from September of 1919 the the focus is not on a Bolshevism at all but is on Jewish capitalism so there is the same is true for what's happening in life felt the is also the this is also based on subsequent testimony of people who say that during this time Hitler talked non-stop about the Versailles Treaty he would not do anything other than reading the peace conditions all day long it's based on the fact that the very familiar would have got to check go back to my sources I think the the not his first speech but the first written piece that he writes or substantial piece is this flyer where he compares just kind of like where he compares the the priests of priestly tasks with the piece of his eye and everyone just says this is this is this one topic this is what he was really focusing upon so it's there I wish there was some kind of document where someone said it says on July 10th I said together with sibling in the pub and we talked about this on that and then suddenly Hitler had got this Eureka moment and this all happens and I don't this is ultimately based on putting together these pieces of evidence that I have mentioned a minute ago I'm sure I forgotten something but that's out that that's kind of where how I put together my argument in this particular context and you've asked an excellent question about the evolution of his ideas why is it that they seem to be frozen once his written mind comes the what entirely sure whether I have a perfect answer so I may get back to you yet on that but still I will still try to answer your question now and the I think it's in he's certainly very much searching for ideas ever since 1919 we can also see how his ideas are evolving at that time I pointed out to you earlier that there were actually a lot of ideas where he would for anything that's maybe not about Judaism or the general idea of this journey geopolitical ideas if things are in flux he seems to settle down a little bit in Mayan Kumpf the I think it's in part that he he often describes his time in Landsberg us as his university that I think that he was then really trying to figure out how things fit together anything part he also felt that he couldn't really quite publicly move on from that but then as a more talk about it now even give you the answer what you mean the answer I realized that his ideas kind of do continue because if you compare Hitler as my incumbent Hitler's unpublished second book from 1928 we do see a change in how he speaks the anglo-american world we do also we look at it's quite fascinating to look at the surviving copies of Hitler's library in the Library of Congress not a lot of books have annotations but some of them do and from that we can see that he was really still even later on engaging with ideas of where they're ultimately Germany should be a republic or a monarchy what kind of monarchy and so on so I think he clearly is still engaging with ideas so I think it's not that this guy stays icky there now just laying back in 1925 and say now I'm no longer searching I think he does continue to search but he is not I guess to some extent and second book he is breaking with some of stuff from from from my incomes but with his other stuff years he continues to search for instance on how one exactly the state should be this is being set up but then again he doesn't really talk about this publicly closer alliance between rushers and alternative power would you seem to kind of short shrift to his views on slaves in a racial perspective but couldn't Hitler have made much better use of opposition to Stalin when he started edging closer to invading the Soviet Union and when he got into Ukraine did you really find it necessary to fully conquer Russia is bring them as part of its the Empire plans to create a greater alternative to the the other power Sanders it's a great question and in fact I have been thinking about in the light of the stuff that I've been writing I've been talking about for instance what do we make of the hitlist on impact we generally presented as seed as only touched only tactical and I still attempted to think as it only tactical but sometimes I wonder or maybe is this a return of trying to think well if there may be an alternative way of of creating of makings Germany's strong enough without the need of totally invading them the reason he may well be searching for this but I think the I think he outwardly is also trying to see is seeing that maybe that can be kind of division Oscar's influences but they will certainly not be in all encompassing alliance with Stalinist Russia and I would also imagine that at this point I would imagine that Hitler's anti Bolshevism and quite possibly also his anti Slavic racism has really been solidified and Hitler started to believe in that I mean of course one of the big questions often is is other moments in Hitler's life where he initially only says something for tariffs or for tactical reasons but ultimately started to believe his own lies and I suppose with regards to Russia it's a little bit unclear on what's happening there and the second half of the nineteen thirties the moment discovery of his oratorical talents was a response to a speech about Bavarian separatism I wonder why you think that was the issue that caused him to erupt in this way there were many other things in the mayor of that time that might have caused him to react and discover his gifts what what what was the nature of that issue that has something to do with nests and thoughts about the viable political unit and what's that political unit the nation or the German people from which he did not want to see Bavaria split off why why Bavarian separatism why was I think my answer is always very sophisticated answer but I think my answer is that this goes back to his kind of politicization to his kind of original political ideas even at the time where other political ideas may have not been that important or he was still searching about it the there is no doubt that from the time he was a teenager he on he is he is a German Austrian or he sees himself as a source of German who is as a as a German and Austrian in same way can we were gentlemen of Bavarian or German and festive alien so another thing he thinks he lives in the wrong estate so that is really the continuity in his political life so the in of course also the is again what makes a little bit unusual in in right-wing politics after the first world war is that precisely while there is huge movement for bringing power back to to Bavaria Hitler precisely is the guy who wants an old German movement it's kind of that scent goes against the political mainstream in Bavaria and so the you know in that sense maybe it's not that surprising that it is when someone gets up and basically says Bavaria should be independent that he really gets worked up but it's still I mean I am glad you asked the question because it still and because I have been thinking about still why is it that if it's really so true what I said earlier that there's these two fundamental questions as to our answers to these questions will revolve around anti-semitism int and and territory and and all that that it is of all topics the variant separatism that really makes Hitler jump up but it make that probably because that is the deepest sitting and oldest political sentiment in him which by the way it goes back to the question of family in and and and upbringing in that sense he also is not a typical product office family because his his at least two of his siblings very much identify themselves with the Habsburg monarchy which Hitler absolutely hates and of course all says you may or may not know it does half-sister runs the Jewish student contain in Vienna after the first world war so was so in many ways Hitler is by this is just a kind of by the by not a typical product of the polarization of his family on that so 1920 is this a purely sort of Germans were just making German Germany free inducers he already has a notion of this larger territory was going to carry out this genocide is this worth does this notion of sort of this territorial vision emerge warrants one of the in 1921 understand I think Hitler ultimately things that though more systematic you can be in removing Jewish influence from Germany the better I also think that ultimately in an Al deal world he would even want to go do a good deed for the world and free the world of the Jews even though that is not his primary concern in for a long time actually I thought that this was out but really just about ideas and that he would be fine to just drive Jews out of Germany the in fact the my German publishing house rushed out an early translation of the first draft of this book in where you actually get a very different interpretation anti-semitism where I was more still saying well located doesn't really quite quite know what what exactly this entails is this ultimately about ideas this is not really this kind of territorial thing and so on but then I realized that there are all these pieces of evidence where in private he says it would be best to get rid of all Jews for instance in 1923 he does this he gives this interview as a catalan journalist so he then asked him kind of off the record so what are you saying here are you saying that you would prefer to kill all the Jews and Hitler says of the same paraphrasing here yes absolutely that would be the best thing to do but I've looked at it from all sides and it's just not possible so therefore we have got to settle on expulsion the other piece is that in 1919 so I've just the sudden moment of jet lag just give me one second and in one other case occasion he is he's meeting this right-wing person in Munich and he's privately saying to him the what the thing is 1921 one time in power I will once I'm in power I will round up Jews in Munich at four for instance in Munich I will lead them to marienplatz at the market square and I will hang them I will let them hang there until they rot I will then cut them off and then I will put up in the next Jews and we will do this in every market square of Germany until not of a single Jew is being left the third one is where Hitler is referring to machine-gunning Jews and killing Jews and the third and the fourth one is a slightly more indirect one which is a response it's a latter to Rudolf Hess from 1922 so of course Hitler's top eight we're basically kind of eternal friend of this guy basically said well look you guys meaning headland has you get this wrong is solving the Jewish Question through machine gunning them all it's just not going is it's just not the right the right way to go about it but I think the the context is is is that they're responding there to propose that that is the way of dealing with is and the of course it's difficult to say how how do we know that these are not just some kind of violent fantasies the but I would say that from from the way he he presents these ideas and from the kind of person he is and the fact precisely that he's not using these line and fantasies in public strongly suggests that Hitler does believe that that would be the best solution and within the confines of his weird ideas it kind of makes sense that this would be the most systematic way of solving so of solving the problem is and the the driving people out of Germany all just goes back to doing the good a good deed for for the world is it might be good for Germany but no would not be good for the world which I think on one hand Hitler might think is a good thing because that actually gives them maybe a competitive in this kind of competition of states but in another hand I think he use it does believe of doing something for humankind and in that sense but just start shifting Jews around you're not going to solve that problem on that very point I'd actually to go a little further if you would into the origins of the extreme and lethal character of Hitler's anti-semitism how do you distinguish it from what we might probably call the normal anti-semitism not only of German culture but of European culture the Semitic parties the hallmarks Martin Luther with with Hitler anti-semitism takes on a demonic transcendence that at least for him and his supporters begins to justify these extreme measures is there a mutation that occurs between what you could call normal anti-semitism and Hitler's transcendent and anti-semitism and if so where where do you see it poor to what extent was hid that Hitler see this as a device but he could use to get most of the population who already are somewhat inoculated and anti-semitism to his side quest eat be difficult to remember with yours you pointed out first things first but here in this Germany the Jews need to be put a stop to sight gotten rid of because they are an impediment to German greatness because of Jewish capitalism and then you describe the hang up to Jerusalem Marcus square until they rot which brings back you would seize up and I'm obviously in Stuttgart because that's exactly what happened to him in the 18th century so we're not really talking about a universe of ideas anymore we employ something because you want to achieve an end we are deep somewhere in what you just called transcendent anti-semitism we're into a kind of violence and see that brings back what you said at the beginning there's a kind of weird psychology there I was thinking when you were talking first narcissistic personality disorder dealing with fantasies and having problems with dealing with fantasies that have exploded so many ideas and this kind of psychological pleasure in violence there's a contradiction right here so where how you going to dig yourself out of the hole that you are there's so many questions for here but I don't think that I'm I don't think I talked myself into a hole at whole I don't think I think there are two two sides of the same at all it's the there is no he's precisely actually saying and he says a time and time again there is no point in it kind of just in in in an emotional anti-semitism for its own sake that's not going to she chief anything he says the kind of anti-semitism of programs is is is is pointless the anti-semitism of youth the youth do spirit is kind of pointless because ultimately it's not going to solve the problem so this resolves from him being a man of ideas and of really trying to think that there is something more than just like hating or scapegoating Jews you really have got to to get rid of that Jewish influence once and for all but of course you can connect that with these kind of primitive violent fantasies and or finding a solution or how you can get rid of all of them because he's not just saying let's hang a few of them and make an example of them he is saying we have got to continue to do this until not a single Jew in in Germany is being left so I think in that sense I think this kind of psychological aspects and the aspect of these violent fantasies and this idea of the man of ideas are not mutually exclusive but there there are two sides off the same matt'll there were so many aspects of the circuit can you remind me what do any of that and knowing that the population oh yeah of course but there there's problems here I mean the as long as Hitler wants to establish himself as the champion of the radical right going on about that anti-semitism helps him is a competitive advantage the moment he wants to make a case to to the general German public it no longer helps because sure everyone may have been anti-semitic but not anti-semitic in that way so therefore he of course later on and for instance the election campaigns of 1932 he doesn't really talk about talk about Jews but the even in this earlier period of course the interesting thing here again is he is not thinking somehow oh well everyone thinks that you Jews burned and the killing of the Jews was great and hanging a few Jews in the Market Square is great therefore let's let's capitalize on it because then he would say it publicly that he's not saying it publicly the either of you also asked about the what differentiates Hitler from from the other and anti-semitism is the sure everyone is anti-semitic on Milan everyone is but most people would have had some kind of anti-semitic sentiment in Germany as would have been true in this country but the question is what kind of anti-semitism are we talking about here it's even with the anti-bolshevik anti-semitism that was most popular in Munich during this this time there was still a space for Jews one of the for me for a while researching the book really most fascinating things was to look into Jewish involvement in fry cores in these right-wing militias the that are often presented as the kind of nuclear of national socialism even of the SS of the killing machine of the SS and I said well let's look let's not let's just look at some examples of Jews in there but let's if you really look at all the master roles and I had a student of mine for a master's decision and the gratitude situation to go through all these Bavarian master master roles and what emerges from that is is that Jewish participation in these five boys at least matches they the their percentage of population it almost certainly well exceeds that and people have no problems having liberal or conservative Jews amongst the rank the ranks of those kinds of Frey chorus because people don't think there's any problems with those kinds of Jews people would still think that there's they would still have a some kind of anti-semitic ideas yet it would have no problems I mean we see it in this of course it kind of similarity of this in many kinds of races and people have some kind of ideas about what blacks do yet they have all these kind of have no problems of working together with with with with some african-americans so but for Hitler's anti-semitism is very different there is no space left for for Jews in this anti-semitism of course I'm not saying this is a one of a kind anti-semitism not saying Hitler's the only person who has this kind of anti-semitism of course there are other people who have got an absolutely kooky total anti-semitism where there is no space left for Jews but Hitler's anti-semitism is at least different from mainstream anti-semitism in Munich at that time understand it [ __ ] question is how is it different the question is where does it come from where does that virulence transcendence anti-semitism where does it come from how is it that Hitler develops so fast you know that you've got your bring out of is that was the next thing I wanted to say and I think the just in a way this leads us back to some of Daniels or Jamie's question to some extent again we're back to the scarcity of sources where we can output Lee try to use the surviving pieces of evidence to put them together in in the most plausible and an improbable way and I think what really plays a role here is generally Hitler's general psychological predisposition also his previous position towards in an all-or-nothing approach to political problems where every compromise is a rotten compromise where if you do find there there is no half-baked answers where Hitler is really trying to understand political problems once and for all and therefore there is there are no shades of grey there are no ways of just somehow blaming the juice a little bit therefore he is really trying to find kind of the hidden golden reason of why something is happening and then because of his all or nothing predisposition where I'm not entirely sure where this kind of all-or-nothing approach to life comes from he takes this he zeroes in on anti-semitism that in that sense is different because the kind of mainstream anti-semitism is incompatible with a psychological with a psychological all-or-nothing approach to life I know this is an it's it's not a complete answer but it's it's an attempt how would you answer it they probably hatred in general or towards Jews are we talking about generally pathological hatred as a category towards any kind of group or specifically towards the Jews I wish I could and I'm not sure whether the sources that we have will allow us to give a conclusive answer beyond to speculate about that I think the virulence is I I would say it's a combination of two things one is this goes back to what I said a few minutes ago it may be not in a politically eloquent way but this kind of is all-or-nothing approach to to to to life and where of course the you would still have got to push me on to where does this kind of all-or-nothing approach to life come from but which would be a different one which is a different question to where why is this specifically directed again against the Jews but the there is of course the possibility that he generally has got this virulence and in general for two all-or-nothing answers would would explain that once he settled on to anti-semitism it would become a very Lauren's answer but in which case what I ultimately have got to answer is why does he have got this all-or-nothing approach to life where I'm not entirely sure whether I have an answer where why he already s he is a teenager starts to have this kind of all-or-nothing approach to life and I think there we are really squarely back on the question of Hitler psychological makeup the other aspect about the virulence of hatred of Jews I do believe that there is that it's at least plausible to argue that Hitler had specific interactions with Jews that would have at least contributed to towards hatred of Jews but again the problem is that the evidence is just not good enough the surviving evidence is just not good enough to really say without me looking totally ridiculous to say this is the reason why he he was directing his all-or-nothing hatred towards the Jews in particular I mean there are rumors in for instance can Konrad Haydn's book something that people normally don't pick up on on interactions that Hitler had with Jews cannot Hyden floats this idea that Hitler once had a Jewish fiancee there is no evidence that this happens but it still raises the question why would this guy who knew all these people so incredibly well from Hitler's context come up with this tall tall story I would never put this into writing I also think there is certainly not enough evidence but if you ask me what are possible ways is that would it would this be a possibility sure is this is this the likely reason may maybe not but it's if you really force me we could talk about issues like that I've also been asked to look at documents relating to the missing year where I had to write to to sign a nondisclosure statement so I can't tell you what's in there but if if it is true what's in there which I doubt but if it is true it would suggest that an interaction with Jews during that time who would have had it would have had a huge impact on that as I said I personally doubt whether the document that I've been asked to look look at fully adds up but if you kind of force me to look into those aspects I would be dishonest if I did not mention them we need sorry 23 there's no lesson well this has been quite a it's that we've exhausted you it's now 6:00 p.m. you do need to stop I just want to just say by way of conclusion what we've learned obviously it's from about the depth and the breadth of Tom's own research in his two volumes on Hitler and the difficulty of writing I know I'm in the stages of writing a biography of us as well and the difficulties in ever getting to know an individuals deepest a psychological character regardless of the wealth of documentation but also for those in the public today who read German I would strongly recommend you look at a recent article in Kosciusko and Gesellschaft which approaches the history of amounts of anti-semitism from the lens of the history of emotions from disdain to discuss to fear and panic and all of this I actually think it's a very useful lens it has to do with time and it has to do with class and it's not about Hitler per se but I think it might provide for those who we're asking these questions if access to German because it hasn't come out in English yet it might be very helpful in the meantime I want to thank the politics and time program here and at Harvard as well at the CS as well as the European Jewry I think the official word it's the Jews in modern Europe Study Group right I think after co-chairing it for a year I should know that again it's been a marvelous hour in almost two hours thank you very much thank you very much for your wonderful talk despite jetlag and we all look forward to reading the book thank you again thank you so much for coming and I should also thank the British Academy and the Chism foundation for having sponsored me

Channel: Minda de Gunzburg Center for European Studies

Views: 41,110

Rating: 4.4136548 out of 5

Keywords: Hitler, CES, Harvard, History, Thomasweber

Id: 54xx3mhdeME

Length: 103min 3sec (6183 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 17 2018