Basquiat: David Bowie and Julian Schnabel interview (1996)

jean-michel basquiat the handsome charismatic art world sensation died at age 27 it would seem to be the ideal movie subject artist Julian Schnabel a contemporary of his was just the person to make that movie it is possibly the first feature film about a painter that has been directed by a painter one of the most talked-about of American artist novels bold neo expressionist paintings captured the imagination of the art world in the late 70s and 80s he has been a vibrant part of that world ever since he's now joining me for a conversation and we want to talk about this movie and about his career will later be joined by David Bowie who plays Andy Warhol in the film but first I'm pleased to have Jr's novel here at some other point while we are doing this broadcast David Bowie will join us also at another time in the history of this program Julian I will come together for a conversation not so much about this film but just about art but I'm pleased at long last to have him on this broadcast and this is an appropriate time to do so welcome thank you very much straight ahead thank you tell me about the making of this film why does he compel you to make a film about him well after jean-michel died well jean-michel basquiat was a black painter he was born in Brooklyn New York he was about 10 years younger than me in the 80s people became familiar with his work and he died in 1988 of a heroin overdose when he died there was a lot of sensationalizing about his death in all of the magazines and uh a polish filmmaker named lek Majewski came to my studio because he was interviewing people that new Jean Michel and he wanted to know what I thought and he had kind of an encyclopedic knowledge of film and he seemed to have the right intentions and I thought I would help him get this film made because I thought it was very boring for people to know about jean-michel just because of his death it's sort of like knowing about Van Gogh because he's the lunatic that cut his ear off I mean he did make a few paintings in the meantime I tried to and I had different friends in Hollywood that collected paintings mine when I had this illusion that I could help this man make this film but lek make this film what happened was we got involved in this process and Lex version and my version were two different things and knowing jean-michel and knowing all the people that were in this world I felt like the truth was much more interesting than fiction and so after about I don't know how many years of trying to get this film made for luck I thought well now people are going to be interested in what I have to say about it and the fact is that nobody was interested in doing this and it took about six years and thirty two days to get this together thirty two days to shoot it and in fact my friend Peter Brandt and his cousin Joe Allen put in two thirds of the money and I got the other money together reasonably modest were filmed about three million three or four million dollars it was three point three million dollars and made the film ourselves after the fact in much the same way that a painting is done we sold the movie to Miramax and they're distributing the film now I had shown the script to Harvey Weinstein early on but he wasn't interested in it after seeing the film he said that the scales fell away from his eyes and he didn't see it on the page but he certainly saw it that day and I was very flattered and and and pleased that he was able to change his mind as a matter of fact Labor Day weekend last year five different distributors came to my house out in Montauk where I was editing the film and all of them wanted to distribute the film is it a different film because as I took note of in the introduction a painter is making a film about a painter well I don't think that people really know all I'd like to say that I don't think you have to know who Andy Warhol was Julian Schnabel or jean-michel to enjoy this film or to watch the movie but the fact is that it's a little bit difficult to make a movie about and know the people personally if they've been dead for a couple hundred years and the fact is that knowing jean-michel knowing Andy knowing and many of the people who are portrayed in the film are still alive people like Rene Ricard the poet and Mary Boone and Nina and Jose and these are art dealers and the fact is that the Warhol Museum gave me Andy Warhol's wig and his clothes for David to wear Mary Boone gave parker posey the actress her clothes um the and people have seen the representations of themselves I'm sorry no go ahead and and and they've been like uh it's very very accurate and and I wanted to make a requiem for Jean Michel and Andy I mean they were so attacked for their friendship for the work that they did together and I mean I kind of see and I think I just sort of wanted to set the record straight I just felt like a tourist shouldn't make this film you could not use in the film his paintings because his father would not release them yes his father wouldn't let us use the images of the paintings so you painted so I I and my assistant Greg bogan and some scenic painters we painted up paintings in the style of jean-michel so I did the best I could with what I had I think I hope that they're true to his spirit and maybe if somebody sees the film they would be curious - curious curious enough to go to a museum or wherever where they could see when in real life because and maybe it's sort of a educational film in that sense or some kind of a public service phone you collected we'll talk more about him in just a second an extraordinary group of actors you're always here David Boies in this film Christopher Walken's in this film Dennis hoppers in this film who else Willem Dafoe Willem Dafoe sir Benicio del Toro I did it because of you and a friendship with you or because of an admiration for the artist a single company well first of all there would be no movie without these people I mean these people work for scale they believed in they cared about Johnny shells work they believed in my work and they gave me their time I mean they showed me that they believed because they showed up also musicians recording artists like Tom Waits and Iggy Pop and Richard Butler from the Psychedelic Furs and and the and the people that represent Miles Davis estate and and Charlie Parker Van Morrison people gave me a music for $5,000 for the master and 5,000 for the publishing unheard of I mean we never could have made this movie this is a movie that is made about an artist by artists without Chris Walken and Dennis Hopper and their love of this subject and their support it wouldn't happen and we were able to make a totally independent film but I never would have been able to do it without their enthusiasm and we want an audience watching this to come away with an appreciation for this artist and understanding of the 80s in the art world of the 80s or what uh yeah I'd like them to care about this man I think that this is sort of a not a new story in a sense because our toe road and si years ago about van Gogh the artist suicided by society and this is just a continuation of that I mean there's moments where jean-michel or there's a moment where Jean Michels painting in basement of a Nina's gallery and at that moment I think he's had he has total success it has nothing to do with other people agreeing with what he's done he just has a space to work he's listening to the music that he that inspires him people that he care about Charlie Parker Max Roach Melly melon Grandmaster Flash I mean there's a but whatever I don't want to get sidetracked when he's alone painting down there you see the creative process and it's not with any storm and drying or it's not a big deal it's just what he does like we're sitting here talking he's painting down there what happens is Annina comes down she wants to sell the painting she has the best intentions collectors come down they want to buy something they have the best intentions his friends come down there they want to hang around with him they have the best intentions Rene Ricard comes down and he's nurturing jean-michel in some way and he cares about him and gary oldman who represents a character sort of based on my relationship with jean comes down there to see what the new kid on the block is doing everybody comes down with the best intentions but what happens the room fills up and he has to leave and somehow unconsciously I think society sort of his assuring artists into the next world because I mean blindly blindly in a way for example when jean-michel looked up to Andy Warhol uh he respected him they were friends but their relationship was a suspect by everyone uh he they said is Andy I mean there's a scene where his girlfriend or his ex-girlfriend says people say that Andy's using you and and she doesn't mean to hurt Jon's feelings when she's saying that but there's this kind of I don't know what the word is uh but there's this sort of pressure from all of these people that don't know anything about the relationship and don't know what he's going through and just the sort of interest in his work it says if he was grenouille in in perfume where he created a scent about himself that was so delicious that he was devoured when did you first meet him in 1981 in what what circumstance very much like in the film Renee told me about his paintings I'd seen him around before that is I went down to a Nina's basement to see the paintings he was painting down there and but you weren't that taken in the beginning uh I mean it was obvious right away that he was talented and I wanted his one thing yeah and I mean I think that he had something that he was doing but you know it's always this kind of um he was busy working on his stuff I was busy working on my things and you know I don't know how uh available we can be at the right moment and maybe I think he deserved a lot of respect and maybe he was demanding in a way maybe I couldn't give him that until he was dead in some way maybe I had to go through this in order to give him the do that I think that he deserved maybe yeah is part of this film about that idea that somehow you want to give something that you didn't give during his lifetime uh well I don't know if it's just about me doing that like it's about being guilty for something I think it has more to do with you know some people are not going to get to be 57 or 80 they're 20 years old they're going to do whatever they're going to do at that time and they're in the present I think we have to be in the present and so if by seeing this film somebody could sort of treat a young artist differently or or or think about things or somebody that is a young artists or that's doing something could sort of not think that they have to kind of become something else and they could just be in the present then maybe it you know it's part of its function what did he think of you and well how did he view you a preeminent artist of the 80s uh I think that we had a very healthy relationship I think that he um he came and he looked at my paintings a lot of the time I used to go to his studio and I mean he gave me a beautiful drawing one day I was painting on something and and and he was at my studio we'd been shopping or whatever and there's actually a caviar scene that takes place between Andy and jean-michel but I was actually the guy who was with him buying the caviar and we went back to the house and I was it was night 1985 I guess I was working on a painting called the walk home and he made this beautiful drawing and he gave it to me and I had to go do something else and when I came back I said to my daughter where's Sean and she said well he left and I opened the door and he was peeing in the hallway so you know he gave me this beautiful drawing but at the same time I think he was sort of claiming back his territory in a way it wasn't a big deal but I think we had a complicated relationship and uh but you know people would do interviews with was your on and they say well you know they're talking about your personal life they call you that in font to reeve of the art world whatever and they don't usually talk about other artists personally so yeah they talk about Julian's life or they don't say s Julian like why he put that in there so I don't know I guess I was a little bit older and sort of a guy to knock off the mountain in some kind of way but I think that we had a very sweet relationship sometimes and there was a you know as a volatile relationship sometimes between the time of his first exhibition in the gallery and his death three or four years I mean it was like tween well actually he started showing when he was about 20 so there was eight years really of him like growing up in public hello in public so he started showing and he became well-known because of Andy for no no no he was well-known before Andy got involved with him he admired Andy and he tried to get Andy's attention early on but it wasn't until he had a show already and he was involved with Bruno Bishop Berg that here II met Andy take a look at this here is a clip it's self-explanatory Oh as Gary playing the character that's essentially based on you the piece the New York Times by Roberta Smith over the weekend some criticism about rearranging and not being literal huh tell me what Liberty you felt I mean I think we're talking about universe well Roberta Smith is not a film critic he's an art and we're talking about making a film it's not a documentary I think she also pointed out that there was an Andy Warhol painting in the film that Andy Warhol never made of me that was used and then which is absolutely incorrect because it is an Andy Warhol painting and I think she was nitpicking and she must be a very unhappy woman I don't know what her problem is uh you know she was complaining that there that Kenny Scharf wasn't mentioned or some of the other artists that were around at that time when there were plenty of other artists in the film that are I don't know we should ask her if she ever wrote an article about Kenny Scharf is she so interested in his work now but whenever somebody makes a and there was a one question like was it really Bruno who told Jean Michel that Andy was dead now if I had a character that nobody has ever seen before driving the car and say Andy's dead it would be a hell of a lot less dramatic than if some character that's been in the movie that we're familiar with says it so I think it's just the syntax of filmmaking that maybe she has a problem with you know she could say that it wasn't raining that day or was in February rather than in the summer also how do you feel having made this film do you have a new passion for filmmaking no I've always had a passion for filmmaking I'm been a fan I mean all of these actors and these people that have been in the film are I mean I meant sitting in the dark like everybody else watching them on the screen movies have had a huge impact on my life films like a catonian lenient 400 blows by Truffaut lots of films but I didn't really want to do this I was sort of like roped into doing this in a way I just felt like it was my responsibility I certainly didn't need a new job so I just cared about his in the end is he a victim of his own self-destructive tendencies or he's he somehow victim of these forces at work in his time all of whatever exploited forces that might be in the world that he inhabited at the time um that's a hard question to answer I don't blame the art world for his death but I do think that there is this kind of chasm between the artist and society that is very very large and that one of the reasons for making this film is that I think that it might shorten the distance in that chasm I think that it demystifies the process of making art of theirs it's very hard to say you know what what you know why he's not here today I could think of a lot of different reasons and I don't know if it's uh I think that uh if you look at this criticism I mean you read this thing in The Times did you read the New York magazine also no editor sure I read that story yep very nasty also and you know who Robert Hughes number 18 Robert out Robert Hughes said that I was the worst living artist and he's the worst dead artist Robert Hughes I guess doesn't believe in karma because it's you know it's very nasty and and you know I don't know of one artist that he's ever supported that we even ever ever heard of so he's got a pretty bad track record but anyway not to pick on Robert he's where these people are extremely vindictive they're very unhappy and uh make a living out of putting people down and so one the greatest compliment I could have was Lou Reed coming up to me and telling me that he felt like Andy was finally portrayed in a way that was close to what Andy was really like you give me a perfect lead-in take a look at this clip and we'll see Andy and then when we at the end of this clip David Bowie joins us take a look here joining us now David Bowie pretty good sir man how did Jim how did you go about did you know Andy Onion's superficially uh that's what I mean did you really know no no I I saw him I think just about everywhere in New York in the early eighties late seventies early eighties and so I didn't go much beyond just sort of having noted kind of what his spirit was the way he moved himself if his attitude it was fear there's more of an impersonation that's how I sort of approach anything like that who helped you I mean he did with you you Julian his sense of a Randy your sense of a gnarly journey helps all of us as actors I think um by just allowing us freedom into pretty much how we wanted to portray he had a take on the actual relationship between Warhol and Basco which was an insight a very useful one that there was a strong possibly something that bordered on a love-hate relationship in and his size I put them maybe hates too strong a word may be aware Ennis on Andy's part I think that I do Liam pointed out to me how affectionate Andy was towards a skier and almost like a mentor a father figure and I probably put in my take that it probably went a step further than that there was a realization that this might be tomorrow's world and he wanted also to keep his eye on that and learn from it but also impart his knowledge to jean-michel who he genuinely cared for a kind of trade-off a reciprocal relationship yeah he was getting something and giving something I think he just wanted to be involved in it whatever it was you know and he saw what in jean-michele a sense of I had no idea I don't know hmm I just played in the way I thought I might play him in that particular situation so I look I looked at him as somebody who didn't seem to have much kind of knowledge of or care too much for the art world which Warhol by that stage was deeply immersed in and you kind of I mean I it's nice working with new musicians guys who've just gotten into the music business you know and you you kind of especially if they're real talented and you want to really get them to play some things you think I know how this guy could really worked really well but also you want them to be involved in what you're doing too you know because this guy is so great it would be great if you work with me in my band and do that sort of thing I think there might have been a similar kind of feeling the war who knows I mean I think when you look at Andy's early paintings the paintings with a like wigs or there's crayon drawings on a lot of these pictures that are not dissimilar from the appearance of Jean Michels paintings and I think if you look at their work from the 60s and jean-michel Spain's there's a real logic why they would do this thing together I think they had a very very pure relationship and people were always sort of second guessing who was using who and all of that it was also something dogmatically a figurative about what basket which that particular time I think was is having a kind of a renaissance the idea of the figurative was coming back very much as a part of the vocabulary of you are and and Warhol had always worked in a very but I don't think of him as an iconoclast in any way I don't think he destroyed anything I think in fact he was reaching back to I mean he was from a Catholic family so I think there was something disenfranchised Catholic about him and he's in a Puritan pilgrim based country so I think that the the sweep of the Reform kind of this is felt throughout all American art and I think that he felt the strength of the image which has a Catholic basis but awareness of these so-called mythic and spiritual qualities of it so he took the spiritual an emotional heart out of a lot of the images that he worked with it's kind of there there's a strange dichotomy and I think he recognized the passion in baskets own figurative myths which is something that he actually didn't use in his approach to figure it ISM you have all sorts of opinions about other heads we we don't agree on anything others nothing nothing no no no well we agree on a lot of things but just in terms of I think what you're saying is very very interesting it's just that it's just it's just that there's a nothing bothers me more than to see two great people engage and interpretation yeah there's an a but there's a way of being emotional critics that's even more in fact it's a way of being emotional without being nostalgic yeah or without being sentimental because I think that a lot of Andy's images uh that were very emotional to look at no I'm not talking about it I'm not talking about sentimentality I think that there was a there's a distrust of the inherent religiosity in all images especially in a Puritan or Protestant country and I think that's affected a lot of American art I'd like the chicken lady with Andy I think that he railed against the idea of religiosity in hard although he but by the same token created icons of a religious nature even if they aren't winning there are the new religion of image of consumer images what are you well said what do you want to come back to that point Julian but what at the point you and I would talk about about being victim or self-destructive Joe Michele well I don't I just want to say what one thing about that when John and Andy worked together on these pictures and I think that they both found it very very when they showed these paintings they were attacked and universally so it's sort of like when jean-pierre Leo and 400 blows builds a shrine to victor hugo and he sets his house on fire he didn't mean to he just wanted to learn his lesson real well hmm jean-michel thought that he was doing something really constructive working with Andy and I think they were both and he more than Andy was very very shocked and his feelings were hurt when when their work was met with disapproval but these are the beneficiaries of that work I mean whether they were attacked or whatever now we get to see this map or this diagram of this relationship that they had he said you said something which I thought was really quite pertinent about the idea of the movie attempting to demystify the process of art-making I think the great fight is is that the art world established art world it's fundamental to keep an established art world that the mysteries kept in place because once it falls into the hands of the proletariat that the ability to make art is in fact inherent with all of us it demolishes the idea of art for commerce and that's that's no good for business and so I think that there's always a great coming together of a commerce establishment which the art world is basically a Commerce establishment to protect its own I mean the perfect example is that there were many signers or graffiti artists working in the late seventies and in the early eighties why should it be that only two or three of them shaft hiring and bass care should be taken from the the sea of signers that were working in New York some of them incredibly talented guys and then elevated to a point that there was something particularly special about those three guys it's it behooves the art establishment to to elevate them to a higher plateau as fast as possible to make them unavailable aesthetically to a low art market and it does that continually is very capable if it moves the art community it extends its parameters quite widely to capture the new thing because that and elevate it from low art to high art successfully enough to increase the commerce proposition that goes along in order to enhance the value of the bank absolutely we're all good for all concern for the dealer and certain sign the idea of art to a particular world you way that you well I thought it was very interesting when he was talking about like uh that everybody could be an artist and I think that's a very healthy attitude and because I think that's Desai on the street but you try and see it work in practice um I don't think the the business of selling a work of art has anything to do with the value of a work of art it shouldn't it doesn't it's showing the same painting that jean-michel basquiat painted that was sold for $5,000 when he was alive is sold for $300,000 right now it's the same painting yeah why yeah because we are all expendable under the notion of having the rarefied art object but the fact is that if you stand next to it you'll get better the idea is that if you stand next to an art object somehow its mystique and its goodness and its high-mindedness will rub off onto you well too many connect me I am NOT saying to all there's a lot of less pollen is a move on but what ah good um I think that people when they buy a work of art I think that's absolutely true that people they buy into it they can be responsible for the philosophy that the other behavior that this work of art represents but if you don't look at it in such a sort of cynical or commercial way yeah I actually believe that somebody could be look at a work of art or have anacs-- they can have a cathartic experience and art can be a healing of a tool yeah I think that's why you worked on this film I think that's why we made this film it certainly wasn't about selling paintings no or trying to get rich yeah but but music actually one great thing that jean-michel said when question was when they said where do you take your words from he said where do you take uh would you ask miles or would you ask a musician where you take that note from and he was telling people why don't you just look at paintings away and give it that with the same kind of freedom that you do when you listen to music and I think that was a very important yeah uh why did you select him to play and e-world because um he lived next door now uh he I it's a very and II was very very very known person his image has been all over the tabloids whatever we've seen pictures of Andy wall I needed a doppelganger I needed a pop icon to play a pop icon I wanted people to say is this Andy Warhol playing David Bowie or David Bowie playing Andy Warhol and I think he did it I don't think anybody could have done a better job and there was something that so you know he's very feisty right now but when he's wearing his Andy Warhol getup he's so sweet yes and and and approachable also and kind of forgiving I'll about you know yeah I'm just talking when you excuse me I'm spitting on the table here wait and you know when you were in that thing there was something so swishy also about you and wishy and I got really interested in everybody I found that yes but when I bet was way card out started like I really it was so easy just to stand around and watch what everybody was doing get reeling them oh that's great it's a wonderful freedom what's he doing over there be interested in other people I mean I think that's the key to your success I mean you're actually curious that's right it's a wonderful thing my daughter Stella is uh she's plays actually Gary's daughter in the movie but she's actually curious and she could sit there and talk to people and it's wonderful yeah well you're a good listener you get a lot more than when you're a good talker yeah yeah yeah that it's true you know Jay you listen long enough to say you've heard ah did you immediately say yes I want to do this funnily enough you know I don't if you remember Julian but Julian when he first got I think you pulled it together originally about six years ago well I started working on this thing I mean I studied around then that you first sent me the script he sent me the script a long long time probably maybe probably four years ago or five yeah it was a long time ago uh Nabatean it was before I knew my present wife so it was at least that long ago it's gotta been six years and I turned it down because one I'm not passionately interested in making movies it doesn't appeal to me much and spirt but mainly I didn't know Julianne and it was only when I met Julian that I became really immersed in the idea I love the idea that parameters between the art forms are beginning to fall down it's happening an awful lot in Europe and it's beginning to hell in film music and painting yeah and it's and it seems to be happening to a certain extent here um DocuSign I won't get sick marry um but but Julian for me typifies that they're kind of the spirit of someone who can apply their aesthetic sensibilities or whatever philosophy they have that propels them through life into any of the art form if you have an understanding of what of what the tools are and they're all moderately the same funnily enough then you can apply yourself to each of the different arts and make some kind of decent job out of it I really believe that he could he could actually carry this off the way he talked about it and live with it and edit it and breathed it I know that passion so well it's like yeah I have it with music you know whatever and and and I just know that he would I mean you if someone said to me tell me a star who would like to be in film I would have thought you I think it's probably one of the most boring professions that you could ever consider to be an actor for me personally yeah I have a lot of friends who were actors and it suits them just fine but I am your personality as well in it what no III am far more interested in the plastic arts and material values of playing a piano or saxophone or creating some music and or painting or stuff stuff like that did not they interested in interpreting characters and stuff really nothing happened in this film to change that and absolutely not and he but had the good grace Donny give me 10 days which was fabulous about its little days are you continue but I think that one thing that does happen whether no matter what it you do you go through something you decide that you're going to like lean towards a divine light and some kind of way you're going to put on Andy's wig you're going to do that thing oh yeah yeah no I'm the real aunt do it something that happens that is this sort of transcendental thing there's it's like you don't know what it is I think in Tennessee Williams and in the future of kind of the sheriff's wife it was played by uh not what what's the wife of Archie Bunker uh yes anyway her statement was the actress yes Jean stay in jeans day but Maureen her sister Stabler right yes she played this and she was painting and she made this painting and she was married to the sheriff in this horrible town she said I don't know after I get done doing that I feel elevated now after you got done doing that thing you weren't painting and you weren't singing but there was this thing that you go through that we went through and you know that you capture something that you had no idea about before you lean towards this thing you put your faith in other people and you do this thing together when you walk out you know that something happened that you were altered in so Michelle an interesting character to you yes I'm passionately fond of his work you are yeah I have a number of his paintings you bought them went in the in the early eighties or in since I've been buying art since 68 I've been collecting all my life is one of my major obsession and when obsessions about whom who do you collect them mainly the British but I've got a couple of American painters have anything of Julian's uh actually I do have one that he doesn't even know about I've never told him this no I actually have well let's hear what's it which one it's just a small drawing where did he butt out this one came from London my book quite some time ago did you didn't know this no no yeah you do you have anything of Jean Michels yes how many uh six six when did you buy them I've only given to you um different times I mean one drawing that he that he gave me from 1980 and your and your studio right and then there's some other ones that actually I bought out of the show that Robert Miller had that Michael Kimmelman said was so terrible and I have this big painting that Andy and jean-michel painted together also that's uh about the kimmel inhibition yeah that's really funny he loved Damien Hirst I know he has that look you know I wouldn't even think about what he thinks yeah uh um this you know the painting with the Mobil gas painting oh you know what's interesting about you Julian is it you I mean you sleep I read all the stuff about you most of the stuff about you about the movie and know about David know about your art you without fear or trepidation mentioned what critics have said about you and about the film without trepidation for example what Robert Hughes said mmm-hmm because you don't care because you don't value it what they say because I mean I'm not scared what can he has no effect on my life at all I mean if if he did I would be broke penniless and have brain cancer and being you know like Bangladesh or something like that right now I think the great thing about art generally includes music or anything is that the direction of art is always dictated by the artists if anybody had told a lot many critics in the fifties and sixties that in fact not because I wasn't going to be the only great god of the 20th century but Duchamp was actually going to be the god at the end of the 20th century I think they would have been probably did bulk and push and struggle that it wouldn't the Duchamp you know but the artist made up they mob their mind that they weren't going to be incredibly influenced by him and they worked a lot of them in that manner and it produces the Bruce Nauman 's and you know the Rebecca horns and whatever and in music it happens the same way however much critics write the other musicians decide who they're going to be influenced by and the history and the story of the music will come through the artists all the time lately it's like a note passed from one person to the next I mean you can't lie to young people that have no like clicks of power that they need to support either they're going to find your work useful and they're going to take it somewhere and do something with it or it will be meaningless to them doesn't matter how many fancy friends you have or how many people are buddies of this one whatever and who has influenced you the most Julie other than very good I'm influenced by everything oh of course you are I mean whose lame-o whose art do I love yeah who's worked Arella well that's Acharya uh um I love Picasso's paintings and he loved the portraiture um I loved many of his paintings I liked the late paintings very very much you didn't ever say did you I mean did you say and mean going the famous comparison between you and Picasso what is it when I was somewhere I read it you had said that we're gonna write are you you associated yourself but now that's me no oh I think that you know people have said that I've said all sorts of stuff that I mean I listen I'm a guilty of a novel admit to being guilty for most things but I'd like to be at least guilty for my own crimes yeah for example in this article somebody said to how do you feel about this man I don't remember his name and you know feel about your where do you think what do you think you're places and I said well why don't you tell me what you think why do I have to say what I think so at another point I said well I wouldn't trade places with anybody I mean would you like to be somebody else do you want to trade places with someone I mean would you Charlie would you like to be somebody else no is there one who does if there's some hubris connected with that like that you're happy to be yourself exactly what you'd rather be Tom Schneider well no okay I mean it doesn't mean it I don't like Tom right exactly you know and and it's it's just it's like you know people would like me to be able to do all this stuff have one arm tied behind my back and not touch the floor while I'm doing it and sort of disappear while it's getting made but are we going to see this is the point you were making about Europe where you seeing these walls break down between music between yeah you know a we sink some you're not the first painter to want to make films I don't want to stop painting either yeah but you know another thing that happened in the eighties that was a great thing is that a lot of the boundaries broke down between all of these different countries there were these exhibitions like metropolis yes but it was not just in a mariner I agree with you there but I think the real the real telling time was when the was when the wall came down just in 1990 then a major change swept through Europe and there was a new feeling it was a friendly gleeful kind of iconoclasm that happened but it's sweeping away start it started it started earlier than that with its nodded early and that started with people in Europe could be like Gilbert and George in that ground but I mean it going for one medium to the other but I'm just talking about like Francesco Clemente and and and all of the Italian artisan they were German artisan before there was a great American chauvinism and like we have the museum that's not quite true I mean that that how can you say that I mean I don't there it there is we're gonna get into the yeah yeah yeah yeah there is no there is no country which has an indigenous population that created this art form a me most of British art our best British art comes from Europe Hans Holbein van Dyck to start with and going a history through there even to right now people like Lucien Freud and COSO Frank are back from that school there is oh and there's now the czechoslovakians but what I'm saying is that in America I mean you say the Clemente and these guys came over in the eighties but there had already been Duchamp there had already been no no but when I don't know what let me be more specific what I'm talking about is when you have a museum like the Whitney Museum of American Art there you and have an exhibition of Biennale and you're not going to have Italian painters and you're not going to have German painters and that's what I'm talking about in 1980 or whatever in 1990 and you're not going to have English painters because they're not from the United States yeah there's a form of chauvinism and what I'm saying is that these people and of course I mean Bill de Kooning came from Holland and Europeans have always come over here and got rid of their baggage and been great Americans but I'm talking about they even further breaking down there it's the splintering of the parameters between the art forms themselves which is sure well that's a whole of it yeah yeah but that's that's very much the feeling at the moment that is the zeitgeist of the time but what we're talking about if we're talking about also the the 80s or when this thing was going I mean I think that John Michel at in his early 20s achieved a place in the international art world where there was definitely excited okay yeah yeah and what was that place oh well he he was like a cipher in a way he would take everything from the Bible lauter mechanics catalogs obscure Byzantine neighborhoods a nice eccentric and Western yet yes as I'm gonna steal on your cigarettes next door go ahead and we got three more minutes here go ahead Frank um and and he put them through his Gracia in some way and he would come out with this poetic revision of the world yeah and he was very popular in Europe and war was more popular in Europe than he was in America during his own lifetime his right oh absolutely absolutely right I mean he was apart oh yeah I mean he was regarded very suspiciously in America war huh generally but you're adding up I mean though he was he was we really didn't I a great idea for you Julian yeah why don't you make a film about Andy Warhol's life with David starring as your next film oh I kind of he already did that and I oh yeah but you know I'll tell you one I already did what yard did David oh he already did that but you know one night I was in standing in front of McDonald's on University Place and it was and jean-michel and Andy were working together and they didn't usually work in that part of the studio but I was just standing there in the dark looking up at the studio on 17th Street and I saw jean walk towards the wall and Andy we have to really I'll go ahead and they were uh and I just saw them and it was silent you know and you just saw these two people and I mean they could not look more dissimilar but they were somehow twins yeah and they were doing this thing and I thought god I just you know I'd like to kind of tell the story of this relationship because I think Andy is one of the most misunderstood people since Hitler I mean it was misunderstood well maybe he wasn't maybe I'm you know but Andy wasn't what why Hitler no I don't need it but how was it well I mean there's a lot of people that think that Hitler was a good guy I mean I would say they misunderstood that there was misunderstood this Jewish no uh-huh I know let's stay with Andy though how is any misunderstood uh well uh he was seen as a vampire he was seen as somebody that took advantage of other people uh you never in it then even in his Diaries it seemed like he was whatever it were all when were alone with people that we know real well we'll say whatever comes to our minds but the fact is he was very generous he was a kind he was a great painter I don't even know that he really I think he believed that jasper johns and robert rauschenberg and roy lichtenstein were great painters yeah I don't think he even believed in his own he was very insecure about what he was doing but I think he was one of the real great painters of the 20th century I mean he's very important to me and and I think Jeremy shale felt that way also and uh when Lou Reed said to me you know that you really showed him the way he was and that made me feel like finally this person was represented in a way that was accurate that meant more to me than any criticism that I could receive for the film or any good review or whatever it was it was something that I that I wanted to make a requiem Franny when John Michel was sitting there looking at that television set which you'll see in the film ever you see it i blended images that Jonas Mekas had taken of Andy with David and uh there was this we watched both of them and his death was the death in the film rather than John's because Jean kind of kept going in a sense and Andy died for them in just in terms of the drama of the film and it was a love note to them in a sense I made a requiem for them that's basically what my job was and I don't when you asked me about making another movie or whatever I would have to care as much about the subject matter and I don't want to be employed I would like to do something in a way where it's uncompromised and I think that I had Final Cut over to someone who no compromise in this film but I was only able to do it with people like David and Chris and Dennis and Gary and Jeffrey right and people who really gave me their soul in their heart and their energy and without this kind of cooperation this is sort of an impossible task that was Chris Lincoln is outstanding in this movie he's great he's that ultimately he just beats it up there's one scene that I die I mean he's just so wonderful he said he is and he Chris Walken wrote a beautiful play that was called him I saw it twice and only was looking yeah and I told my daughters that they had to come see it with me because it was what like watching Marlon Brando perform open-heart surgery on himself and he said if you can't surprise yourself how do you expect to surprise anyone else and I think that whatever I do I don't do it illustrate what I know I do what to find out something that I don't know that's very true when you work in a creative area you if you're working in a comfortable weary you know nothing much is going to be produced it's only when you when you start to move just slightly out of your debt and you feel you're a little bit lost that's when you're going to get something exciting go and it allowed to be a dismal failure or it'll be spectacularly what you really want to do and you know bill Gattis wrote in in the recognitions in 1953 most paintings the instant you see them they become familiar and then it's too late so people want to be comfortable they get nervous when they're uncomfortable but I think if artists are comfortable and they don't come out to know something that they don't know anything about you never get anything new I agree I don't I agree then haha well we agree about a lot of things it's just this you know that thank you both thank you thank you for having said to have you thank you for joining us see you next time

Channel: Manufacturing Intellect

Views: 228,910

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Id: ExDfj-_D6Sk

Length: 51min 28sec (3088 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 18 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/the_eyes]

Great find.