Baptism, Covenant, and Election

this program is a production of the reformed forum an organization devoted to producing and distributing Reformed Theological content for a connected age online at reformed forum org this is Christ the center episode number 223 today we speak with dr. Richard B gaff and jr. and dr. Lane Tipton about baptism welcome to Christ the center doctrine for life through weekly conversation of reformed theology this is episode number 223 my name is Camden Busey I'm very excited to be here in studio with a number of people that speak about very important subject but let me introduce to you all of our participants today first we have to my right Jared Oliphant who is Regional Coordinator for Westminster Theological Seminary is working out of Charlotte North Carolina but he's here today in Philadelphia Pennsylvania welcome back to the program Jared it's good to have you thanks Kannan gonna be in studio yeah it's fun in front of all the cameras we're doing some more of our video experiments seeing how how this all works out so we're sharing a seat together here you watches on online you'll see what we're talking about but we're also very excited to welcome to the program dr. Lane Tipton who is professor of biblical and systematic theology here at Westminster Theological Seminary welcome back Lane is great to have you thank you so much it's wonderful to be here we're really excited to have you in studio but we're especially excited to have our special guest dr. Richard B gaff and jr. who is professor of biblical and systematic theology comma emeritus at Westminster Theological Seminary he's joining us again for what we hope will be a wonderful conversation welcome back dr. kapphahn it's wonderful to have you thanks it's good to be here again yeah today we want to speak about baptism which is a subject that's very important to our understanding of Scripture and our understanding of ecclesiology and our practices within the church but the arguments presented are not always the strongest and so today we want to march through an understanding what we think is a more compelling and convincing understanding of paedo baptism as we analyze various critiques and criticisms from various credo Baptists or believers baptism camps but before we get into that I do want to mention of course that Christ the center is listener-supported and we rely on the generous support with prayerful and financial of all of our listeners to help us to continue to produce and distribute all of our probe free of charge so I would encourage you if you're able and willing please visit us online at Reformed forum dot work / donate to pledge your support today we thank you so much for your support of everything we do at reform forum in this program in particular Christ the Center on gentlemen Jared helped set this up and it was his initial idea to have this discussion of course it's it's always at the forefront whenever we talk about evangelicalism because there are different strands of it different historical traditions and unfortunately many times when we engage with the issue or when people engage in the issue they can sometimes set up straw men and then and that's unfortunate they can set up weak arguments just in order to tear them down so there are some seemingly compelling Credo Baptist arguments that come from a coven ental position because of course when we talk baptism we come down to hermeneutics in our view and understanding of the Bible and when a paedo Baptist here is an argument for believers baptism that's not coming from a covenant 'el perspective it's just falling on deaf ears it really has no merit whatsoever but yet there is a version of creato baptism coming from historically from figures like poking Jewett and other professing and confessing Baptists of recent vintage that seems to be more in line with the traditional reformed view of the covenant of grace and traditional more traditional reformed views of election and whatnot so we're going to try to dive into that today um dr. Gavin is we get started one of the main issues in terms of our view of the Bible comes down to an issue of continuity and discontinuity in your classes that you've taught for so many years st 101 you speak about that continuity I believe in Hebrews 3 with Moses being a servant in the Lord's house of Christ being you know the the ruler basically of the house the Omega consummate ur of the house if we want to talk clay nian language but for me the paedo Baptist argument really centers and hinges upon some things that Paul teaches in Romans chapter 4 how do you understand romans 4 as presenting a more continuity view saying that the New Covenant has much in common with the way that the Lord dealt with Abraham for instance I appreciate the way that you've focused that question if I if I could take a few moments and address it in terms of a story yeah I'm gonna do some narrative theology please were historical that's important part actually this is an incident that happened on campus here at Westminster decades ago now and it was there was a conference on this issue of credo or paedo baptism that was put on by as I recall at that time a student body and one of the speakers at that time a younger pastor I won't identify him by name because I haven't checked with him but if I did mention his name many of viewers would recognize him as a very prominent Reformed Baptist and I would just say before I say anything else someone who I have greatly admired and so appreciated his ministry over the years but what I wanted to get to and in that conference as this pastor made a presentation he took us to Roman's 6 and there he identifies he put he pointed out as Paul does there what baptism signifies and seals and as many I'm sure will be aware the gist of what Paul says is that baptism signifies and seals union with Christ in his death and resurrection as I think a a better way of putting it it signifies it seals the union with the exalted Christ who is what he now is in all of his saving benefits and efficacy and the point then that the Reformed Baptist pastor wanted to make is we Baptists we look at Romans six and what it teaches about the high significance of baptism and we say how would we do it let me back up just a second and he pointed out properly that these benefits that come from union with Christ come through a union that is established by faith it's faith that Bond's us to the exalted Christ so that what he the salvation that he has secured for us are we for his people those benefits are received in being United to Christ by faith so he pointed out though this is the significance of baptism and so how would we dare begin to think of applying that to an infant who is incapable of faith well that was very helpful to me because it helped me focus I think an important point in this whole debate about infant baptism because it struck me as I listened to him and I agreed entirely with the way in which he was exiting Romans 6 but my reaction was now if Abraham had reasoned the way this pastor was he would have said no Lord look at what circumcision signifies and seals how could I begin to apply that to my eighth day old male offspring and that bring this is you can see I kind of I've been getting to Roman's four no it's wonderful because you see if you if you back up there what Paul says in Romans 4 I want everyone to know it the doctor Geffen's looking up the passage on an iPod well quick access to Greek Hebrew and in grey some of us managed to keep up a little bit some of us aging managed to keep up a bit with the technology but he he says there that let me read romans 4:11 and following and he Abraham receives circumcision as a sign a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised so then he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised in order that righteousness might be credited to them what I want just underlined now is the way in which Paul identifies circumcision there as a sign and a seal of the righteousness that Abraham had by faith and the what I found is it in fact been fascinating to me this is not true I recognize of everyone who maintains a credo Baptist position but I've been fascinated over the years the way in which any number of credo Baptists have in effect glossed Romans 4:11 and they read it as saying that it was a sign and seal of Abraham's faith what you see is precisely what it does not say it says it's a sign and seal of the righteousness which is received by faith and that righteousness of God which is at the heart of the of which as many will be aware the focus of the whole of the main theme in the book of Romans the righteousness that is the same for all Covenant believers and New Covenant believers the only difference being by way of promise or fulfillment Abraham received the benefits of the salvation that have been secured in Christ the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel by faith in the promise we have the privilege of receiving that same righteousness by by faith in the promises that has been fulfilled in Christ so I've been talking a long while here and I can see Lane tipped into my left he's anxious to get in here I'm just agreeing with what fat yeah I'm loving he's almost raising his hands that I think so often and I understand what a what a difficult barrier it is often for a greater Baptist to get around this point that they they they see often how much baptism has meant to them as an act in a profession of their faith but I I would just encourage our brothers and sisters of this mindset that you see when you pay attention to what the way Paul puts it there that baptism focuses on the righteousness received by faith that it focuses not on the act of faith or as a confession of faith but it focuses on what faith appropriates it focuses on what God does and not what we do in response to what God does I should stop at that point no that's helpful just because many times it comes down to a perspective on what the sacrament is is it and what its direction is is it a sign from man to God of what we have done or our response to what is done or rather is the sacrament of baptism a sign from God to his people and I mean you have any follow-up on that though capsulate sit I see well now um let me let me ask dr. Tipton then on a related point here we've talked about you dr. Gavin's mentioned the issue of circumcision we think of Colossians 2 I believe is the right chapter here when we speak about the connection between baptism and circumcision can you speak to the continuity there because that's another point of contention in in the paedo Baptist arguments the Credo Baptists will say no no we see more discontinuity here between these signs there are other things we can get into later in terms of progeny spiritual versus physical progeny but how can we build a case and how do you build a case for the continuity between circumcision and baptism as you see it in Colossians 2 for instance well a lot of that depends on how you're going to take a genitive and Colossians 2 with regard to the cross of Christ and his circumcision I think one of the things that that we can say is that insofar as Jesus Christ and his death on the cross brings into view a circumcision of sorts a putting off of the body of the flesh that you find a kind of judgment or deal involved in his death the circumcision of the cross as the putting off of the body of flesh is explicitly a judgment or deal where wrath is poured out etc likewise when you're thinking about the significance of baptism and you think 1st Corinthians 10:4 for instance the baptism or deal in the Red Sea had sanctions of blessing for Israel and then sanctions of judgment for the Egyptians and the waters of the Red Sea remember of course closed upon them in judgment the same baptismal water so the same baptismal waters brought these different outcomes to bear likewise when you think of first Peter 3:20 and following the baptism the the event of of the flood is likened to baptism that now saves right but what happened there well you had for those in the Ark those waters of baptism lifted them up above the judgment that was poured out upon the earth and then those who were on the earth perished in a trial by by judgment trial by water ordeal I think one way to talk about the connection between circumcision and baptism is that they they involve a trial by either knife a trial by water they involve judgment and later by fire and later by fire and I think in the case of what when we're thinking about the Colossians 2 the connection between baptism and circumcision one thing that I think we can say is that both events depict in in various ways the death of Christ and his bearing of curse on behalf of his people and baptism is in one way or another a summons for us to identify with the one who has borne away judgment and and as dr. Gaffin has already pointed out and I think very usefully this is a different way of speaking about a righteousness that comes to us not from ourselves but is given and received then by faith and so I think you can you can look at some of the symbolic significance of the judgment ordeal involved with circumcision judgment ordeal involved in baptism and see the way that judgment is borne by Christ and we therefore meet judgment in him now one response to that point is that why not baptize everyone then why why don't we just go about if it has an efficacy no matter how it's I mean if as long as it's administered correctly so to speak but it has a blessing upon those who are elect and it has a curse upon those who partake inappropriately why not just give the sacrament to everyone well the administration of the sacrament is itself a function of a particular rising covenant and when Abraham is called for instance and is given the sign of circumcision of what is that a sign it is the sign of the righteousness that he has by faith in the promised Messiah and so the the dual sanctions are a feature that simply represent the full range of the gospel and the indicative imperative relationship for those who have been called by God out of the world and constituted a pilgrim people and have the visible the sign of the Covenant placed upon them discriminating them from the world and the the logic of the of the dual sanction is simply this that's the Westminster standard say you can improve your baptism you can obey and walk by faith and that is a demonstration of what that that what has been signified and sealed in baptism is being appropriated in a life of covenant fidelity or in the case of someone who has been baptized and who turns away from the Lord there is by virtue of that baptism a responsibility that has not been met and a and a curse is upon that person but but but circumcision and baptism being a sign and seal of union with Christ a righteousness that is by faith and all of the benefits of that Union it's a sign of a particular rising covenant yeah clearly um to make a point or offer a question of direct you know absolutely please just the way you put the question I appreciated the Wain lane focused and draw attention to a particular izing covenant particularly with a view toward reform Baptist friends credo Baptist friends the the issue see we are not trying to administer election yes in baptism which i think is basically it raises what comes on the table here and this in an adequate discussion of it is for an another time is is is the difficult issue of relating election and covenant you don't want to pull them apart but you don't want to identify them fully can't equate head for head yes everybody in covenant with God with the elect and but covenant is is is the administration of God's electing purposes that he is a trust entrusted to his his people old covenant and new covenant but I think it's helpful in this whole issue to see that the point about election excuse me about baptism is not whether or not someone is elect but whether or not someone is in covenant with God yes oh that's so helpful to make that point you know and related to that we have this notion of eschatology and there we're going to get into a little bit later Jeremiah 31 in Hebrews 6 issues of over realized versus under realized eschatology I'm priming dr. Tipton for that here but before we get there I do want to make a few points and I'll and ask for your insights on some issues of redemptive history you've done phenomenal work and very helpful work I believe is back in the 50th anniversary OPC volume speaking about the the pilgrim people and the pilgrimage and the Sabbath day and and that a journey that the church is on having arrived so to speak at the heavenly Mount Zion but not yet having fully arrived and consummated glory there's an already not yet tension um I want to Zone in on the issue of John the Baptist and as particularly the final Old Testament prophet um how are we to understand John's baptism per se in relation to the entire sweep of redemptive history what sort of things are similar and what sort of things are different and and just to provide an additional leading points I mean this is an emphasis of yours in the in the Acts and Paul course you taught when you talk about the baptism by fire etc how are we I'm just asking you to open up about John azoty prophet and then the themes of baptism that we find in Luke Acts yeah I think I think that's very helpful appreciate the way you're drawing attention to the Luke acts material because I I think it reinforces the important points that Elaine was making already about baptism as having a judgmental or ordeal significance that's so clear in Luke acts maybe I could just make this general statement we have John's water baptism we have Christian New Covenant water baptism we have what John's water baptism was a pointer to which is not a right are ite but the Messianic reality of spirit and fire baptism and I I think it's an overall perspective on Scripture in terms of the distinction between promise and fulfillment anticipation and realization John's water baptism sign points forward obviously in Luke 3:16 I'm not the one i baptize with water the one who comes after me who I'm not worthy to untie the sandals of carry a sand hole so to speak he will baptize the Messianic one will baptize with Holy Spirit and Fire Christian water baptism looks back on that baptism ordeal that Christ Himself passed through remember how he puts it in Luke 11 49 250 I have a baptism to be baptized with and how I am a pressured it's very strong intense language how I wish it were already accomplished and that's obviously referring Elena's already indicated that from the Pauline material to what Jesus experienced in his death his death in which he bore for us the fire aspect of the Messianic ordeal he took that on himself so that now the great gift that could come to God's people is is the Holy Spirit not in in any destroying way but as a blessing and which is realized in on the day of Pentecost I know if I tried to say too many things no it's pretty good and of course we encourage people to listen their previous discussions especially on Pentecost with dr. gaff and because a lot of this material is in there but of course the beauty of this is is that you can rewind and listen again so I appreciate that your points of discussion or questions at this may be maybe just two things I'd like dr. Tipton maybe to go on a little further on the Malachi connection that you talked about in in the prophecy with with yeah John the Baptist and in Christ in Isaiah 2 yeah yeah one way to think about John the Baptist's ministry and his baptism is in terms of the omega point of the covenant lawsuit against Israel and that what you find pois'd against Israel for consistent apostasy against God is judgment and John's baptism being a baptism of judgment is in one way a sign of a movement from an Old Covenant earthly theocratic form of the kingdom to the realized eschatological form of the kingdom in Christ with its implication of the inclusion of Gentiles so that John the Baptist is is is when John baptizes it's a baptism that expresses this judgment that it's coming upon Israel when the son is baptized when Jesus is baptized what we recognize is that his baptism is bringing in its full eschatological form this judgment motif to bear upon Christ's own person so that the transition in from the old to the new is a transition from judgment to salvation judgment adumbrated against Israel in the tip logical form of a covenant lawsuit that reaches its eschatological zenith in the death of Christ as a baptism mm-hmm a baptism by fire so that the the future eschatological judgment of God that is currently held in abeyance actually provides the context of his messianic baptism of death on a cross it's the day of judgment brought future but a future brought into the present in his substitutionary wrath bearing sacrifice mmhmm yeah that's excellent and just to follow up the other thing that I was thinking it was your you summarized Paul Jewett's work in class and elsewhere and I see that is really helpful because you know as this is kind of zooming out a little bit but just noting the evangelical landscape right now and kind of the young restless reformed you see a lot of people cross nomination aliy who have a concern for redemptive history who have a concern for the covenant and our Calvinists and I think maybe part of what we want to achieve here is to say how can we be most consistent with those things that are cross denominational with the issue of baptism and I think Jewett helpfully represents kind of what's out there on on the cradle baptist side so wondering if and this may be backing up a little bit but you know so that we understand kind of the best of the the credo argument maybe summarizing a little bit of what he's getting at and how that relates to current stuff he would take what I think Jewett would take what dr. Gaffin and I have have said and he would say look the the the meaning of circumcision is to be put in the context of of the movement in redemptive history this is infant baptism in the coven of grace Jewett and he would say that the movement in redemptive history is what paid o Baptists deny we're static Parmenides something like that we have no sense of movement in the dynamism of redemptive history and what what he suggests is this that the significance of circumcision is twofold that circumcision implies or involves entrance into an earthly National visible Covenant the Old Covenant and insofar as it involves entrance into that earthly theocratic realm it it involves all of these external social political temporal blessings blessings in the land blessings of long life and so on he says also and and you are in that arrangement simply by birth hence the sign is to be applied to those who by birth enter into that covenant arrangement and have a right to all of the land privileges of ethnic Israel ethnic Israel it's an it's a sign of ethnicity and incorporation into the visible theocracy and all of its earthly benefits all of its visible tangible benefits he says however also in addition to that circumcision is symbolic of faith and dr. Gavin is right that this is a trend even in Jewett to talk about circumcision not as a sign of something that God does in terms of reckoning faith but a sign of faith itself and and by faith you can receive intangible spiritual benefits so by faith in terms of circumcision you can receive the secret invisible spiritual blessings that are set over against the public open observable visible tangible benefits circumcision has that twofold significance Jewett would say when you move from the old into the new that circumcision corresponds to baptism only with reference to the invisible spiritual benefits that are given to old and new covenant saints alike and that what falls off entirely our outward visible physical benefits in terms of the new covenant and the the there's a very strong kind of bifurcation between physical and spiritual outward and inward and he says the continuity is on the inward only not at all on outward and so that's kind of a hermeneutical move where he says look if you want to be paid O Baptist you have to say that the land promises for instance have to still be in effect the baptism would symbolize and signify that that's the way he sets it up dr. Gaffin um before we move on I want to get into Hebrews six and Jeremiah 31 on that point but um of course you just mentioned your hardest boss of a few days ago here at Westminster for the the gaff and lecture and you spoke about his you know his hundred and fiftieth birthday what would have been and you brought up some very interesting points and one thing that Voss is so keen on maintaining is this organic you of all revelation that we shouldn't espouse some sort of surprise hermeneutic or we should not be reading the Old Testament in AU Nivea duis fashion either but Christ is really present in there clowny develops this thought especially in typology and preaching and he has what has become known as the Connery's triangle how are we to understand just Old Testament types in general to their today to the relationship to their anti-type basically because what I find in the Baptist cradle Baptist argument coming from reformed folk often is that the Old Testament sign related to a reality but basically it needs to be transposed to a New Testament sign before it can relate so to speak to the New Testament fullness which so put it this way if we draw a triangle the Old Testament point would be on one end there's no hypotenuse for from any cradle Baptist there cannot be an organic relationship of an Old Testament sign to the New Testament spiritual reality it has to transpose it self first through Christ before it can go up how are we supposed to understand types and their relationship there's substantial relationship to what they what they signify yeah I I hear your question at least as I want to respond to it I sort of to link in on what Lane was also just saying but more generally I and I would say this is where you you mentioned boss yeah always important to bring him into I think as his work shows where does he develop his answer to just the question that you're asking well it's in his his volume on the teaching of the book of Hebrews and see I think it that's that's not by accident not that you couldn't address other materials as I've already come out in our discussion but it seems like the writer of Hebrews is particularly intent on on establishing both the continuity and the discontinuity between old and new and he does that in terms of a typology that is focused primarily on the priestly identity of Christ if you make a distinction prophet priest and King it's it's it's without anyway pulling those it's a one three fold all of us as we I just heard Mary type way to do it and he does focus on the priestly and particularly on on the heavenly high priestly ministry of Christ is present priestly intercession and SS as he but he did that focus carries broader principles which are can be captured in terms of the distinction between shadow and fulfillment or reality and and in a way the shadow is is nothing of itself and yet it is given its shadowy efficacy in view of the reality that the shadow that's cast forward to who Christ is so that in a way and on the continuity discontinuity question the writer of Hebrews is saying it can appear he's saying - quite contrary things but they I think they come together in in this shadow reality typology on the one hand he's saying because a shadow in its of itself is nothing it's an all or nothing difference between old and new there's no Christ in the sense of having actually arrived in history and and and accomplished the redemption that he did once for all on the other hand in terms of covenant ministration it's there there's a fundamental continuity I just pick up on what you mentioned much earlier the way in which he develops things in chapter three verses one through six God has one house building covenant constructing project at work in redemptive history and in that one house Moses verse five standing for the whole Old Covenant order Moses is a servant of the things that would be spoken which are those things that have been declared in word and deed in in in in the person and work of Christ yea only one house there's only one olive tree Romans 11 we don't find God with multiple projects going on but different administration's and one thing that I think is very helpful in the confession it speaks about the grace that is administered to these Old Testament Saints really what they're receiving are the same spiritual benefits the same grace the same substantial grace coming from the same work of Christ they're just receiving it in anticipation of the work he would come to do but it's not as though circumcision administered a different Savior or a different Messiah or a different Christ or a different person or work but yet it's a it's the same substantial grace but yet administered differently in anticipation I think for me that's a it's a very compelling argument for continuity and a very compelling argument already that fits in with the treatment of Colossians 2 we've seen what what an overstatement be that the continuity is in the application and the discontinuity would be in the accomplishment or the I guess administration which you've already said that's very helpful I take it that this a number of viewers listeners would be aware of the distinction between história salutis and we hope so by now we're trying to say I think that's Jared that's what I heard you raised yeah they say that's I think it's very important to focus things way in terms of Ordo salutis or in other terms the ongoing application of redemption there's a fundamental continuity it's true of that continuity gets heightened because our privilege is not the privilege of Abraham David or any other Old Covenant believer we now have our Redemption applied by union with the Christ who is now in fact exalted that wasn't true for Abraham Old Covenant believers but on the other hand you know there is that fundamental continuity how does Paulus make the case for justification by faith he doesn't well he could and does it in went to himself but in his in its Magisterial argument in romans 4 it's by putting to Abraham and David entrance of the law makes no difference it's all one it's it's anise anise entually identical appropriation application but at the order of of historia salutis or once role accomplishment there is the radical discontinuity yeah that's so helpful I mean I I went on and on there just the way Jared put it I know it's an absolute I'm just repeating what you've said in the past credit back to you dr. gay yeah now on that point of Romans for several years ago I was struggling through these issues trying to come to my own conclusions and my own convictions I was raised in a reformed environment but yet in college and and just after college I was attending a Calvinistic Baptist type Church wouldn't let me be a member because I wasn't baptized again and I refused to and you know less I was convinced so I worked through a lot of these issues and there's some serious arguments to deal with and I remember coming back to Roman's 4:11 it seemed like such a linchpin to me it was it was that that's where it's at the continuity which argues for the paedo baptism but yet john piper would respond to that argument saying that we'll look at jeremiah 31 he says the new covenant is not like the old how are we to understand what jeremiah is saying in light of covenant 'el membership and eschatology I'll give that one to dr. Tipton the man with one way to think about it is is this that when when I've found this to be the case fairly consistently and I want to say very consistently when I read credo Baptists that they read Jeremiah 31 31 through 34 as anticipating a time in which there will not be a meaningful distinction between election regeneration and covenant membership oh right of course so that what Jeremiah envisions is the real is a on the cradle Baptist Reed is a realization in history where distinctions or disjunctions among the categories of covenant election and regeneration do not exist everyone will know the Lord they will all be taught by the Lord and therefore this distinction that you have between a Jacob and an Esau or where covenant is broader than election or covenant is a wider concept or reality than regeneration that's going to pass away now one of the concerns that I have with that is when that very text is referenced in Hebrews 8 7 and following and you have a unit basically from 87 to the end of chapter 10 what the author of Hebrews does with that very text is exhort the church about the real danger of apostasy of being sanctified by the blood of Christ Hebrews 10:26 and following and shredding him underfoot and expecting nothing but a fearful expectation of judgment by which God will destroy the adversary in other words the author of Hebrews when he sees that text being realized he does not engage in the conflation move me of making election regeneration and covenant coextensive mutually exhaustive realities instead he exhorts and he he brings the if we could put it this way the the hortatory force of the subjunctive the concern to exhort is heightened now not simply hypothetical it's it's it's real it's real in and it's heightened now given realized eschatology and so what I think happens with the Reformed Baptist reading of Jeremiah 31:31 234 and it's Old Testament context is they read it and they mistake it's it's fulfillment in the New Covenant they read it in Jeremiah 31 31 through 34 and expect in the already that there will be no distinction now between covenant election and regeneration that's true only in the future realized for heavens newer of a new heavens and new earth but until Christ returns there is a real threat that those who are in the Covenant in the words of John might be of us but go out from us demonstrating they were never really with us in in the beginning so that in the bottom line is I think that that kind of argument from the Reformed Baptist or cradle Baptist camp it it reads Jeremiah 31 with an over realized eschatology that cannot do justice to the exhortations and the reality of apostasy present in Hebrews 6 Hebrews 8 through 10 and climaxing there intends 26 to 31 I think that's an excellent point we're not saying that we want to disagree with that read of Jeremiah 31 per say it's just not fully realized yet though it will be we can't entirely identify election and coven ental membership in this age of an overlap meaning there's an already not yet when Christ returns there is no non regenerate members you know walking around my heavenly Mount Zion only an eternity past in the pactum salutis and in the post consummation phase of Christ kingdom do covenant election and regeneration as it were perfectly overlap ya know of course regeneration from the decree standpoint as a future certain reality but in between any time you deal with history from fall until Christ's second coming there is always a broad circle of covenant and a narrower circle of election regeneration and existential union with Christ by faith mm-hmm and and you know to put a point on it just again to put it another way then we we could say to a cradle Baptist how can you account for Hebrew six what what's going on there a Calvinist credo that is Calvin we're not speaking about dispensational cradle Baptist at this point we would have other issues to deal with before I'm speaking about people that would identify themselves and some sort of coven ental identity that would want to read the Bible redemptive historically to a point but yet still hang on to a credo Baptist position I would encourage I would exhort myself to say what does Hebrews mean do we have a category for understanding these passages or are they simply hypothetical but the language just won't sustain the hypothetical argument will it well I don't want to put him on the spot but the best I've ever heard was in a class entitled the theology of Hebrews that dr. Richard be gaff and jr. the professor of biblical in systematic theology comma emeritus in 1998 in history six was very useful yeah could you follow up on that a little bit maybe not you doesn't have to be in detail but how are we to understand those expectations in a few minutes yeah and then we'll keep one thing that you hear dr. Graf and they're gonna try with you we've come to our you know our climax here I just want to get your final thoughts before before we could I just make a comment oh whatever yeah on lines very helpful survey of Descamps ents on Jeremiah 31 passage and this kind of connects with the question a focusing question of Jared I'm gonna make it I'm gonna make a statement that I hope I make it cuz I believe it will be helpful to some I think others it will appear to be question begging I think about it see I think that what and and what I'm prompted to to say this because of the way in which the writer of Hebrews handles the Jeremiah 31 passages as Lane has been directing us to here's sort of the categorical mouthful Jeremiah 31 is making a redemptive historical point or a historia de s-- point in Ordo salutis language now see I think in other words he's making a point of if that Latin is not helpful to you John Murray's book Redemption accomplished and applied in other words he's making a point about once for all accomplishment but in terms of its its benefits yes the new heart but you see as Lane has already pointed out what the writer does is not when he had when he advances when he see his point at the end of 8 just after he is cited Jeremiah 30 - speaking of a new covenant he makes the first one obsolete what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away and and what is is ready to vanish away see that's making basically a redemptive historical point and as Lane has already pointed out the writer then doesn't see the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31 as bringing about a head forehead equivalent between Covenant in election or covenant and regeneration being in covenant and being regenerated so in other words you have to read say I think he's making a manifestly redemptive historical point at the end of chapter 8 and then if you're gonna track with the writer into what he has says in chapter 10 or back in chapter 6 - to appreciate that he he is not it's farthest from his thinking to suggest that his will his teaching that that there's some kind of identity between head forehead identity between the covenant members and those who are elect and I think all and the other side of that is you cannot help but read the Psalms and recognize that normative Old Covenant religion Abraham many of the Psalms the normative Old Covenant religion comes out of the new heart the Ordo salutis reality that is dependent in its in Abraham being a man of faith a regenerative regenerated person of faith which is dependent on the work of Christ still to come in the future for its efficacy okay now you want to talk about Hebrews 6 yeah well I I guess the point of departure as much as any I don't think it's helpful to see it as somehow hypothetical you you you're just not dealing with the text if you don't see that the writer here is addressing the whole congregation all who are confessing Christians as he as he says 4:14 since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens jesus son of God let us hold fast our cadet let us hold fast our confession late already made the very hopeful point about the hortatory subjunctive there that's all through Hebrews now see it's that us who 313 where the writer says take heed lest there be in any one of you very specifying it's not a general he's putting his finger on every listener every confessor you singular take heed lest there be in any one of you an evil and unbelieving heart in up a stained I it's the Greek from which we get our English word apostasy unless we unless you fall away from the Living God and and just I think Hebrews six then just brings those all that exhortation which you remember what is what the book of Hebrews is all about it's a word of exhortation he says so 13:22 and and and that exhortation is is is it's it's what I think chapter six is best addressed or what a seeking Express is those who share in benefits as Phillip Hughes says in his commentary a unified experience of evangelical grace by covenant administration it's it's that's the description there is true of all and yet some and obviously from a larger biblical perspective or not elect who are not regenerate do fall away but it's addressed to the whole congregate and I can't just leave it there because it's addressed to the whole congregation to draw their attention away from themselves and to focus in faith on their high priest in heaven who ever lives to make intercession for them and those who do that can be sure they will never never fall away and so hence if we take Hebrews seriously in the language of Hebrews is real and applicable to those whom it's directed at you know one one way to just encapsulate in and summarize this is that the I have seen what what what dr. Gavin's presentation and the comments I made assume is that from between Christ's first and second coming though between those two points that define this epoch there remains a formal versus vital distinction administration of covenant grace and the Credo Baptist takes the language of Jeremiah 31 to say the formal is the vital the vital is the formal and everything that dr. Gaffin just so wonderfully summarized demands that that distinction continue lest you evacuate the word of exhortation of its real application to the church yeah I think that's an excellent point to wrap up on the formal vital distinction and it all comes down again we're presupposing a redemptive historical view I mean we'd have to do some other work to lay that foundation again we've done so in previous episodes but for those of you who are interested in or persuaded by a coven ental credo baptism i hope this has been helpful and we would encourage you and exhort you to to look at Hebrews and and to see how some of those passages can cohere in such a model so if you have any questions please visit us online at Reformed forum org we'd be more than happy to comment with you on this episode but also if you'd like to email us you can email us at mail at Reform forg and we always enjoy hearing your comments and questions so we appreciate them also we should mention Westminster Theological Seminary WTS edu and we can get a hold of jared through some of those routes if you'd like but we always appreciate the wonderful help and support we've received from them offering us a space to record and making discussions like this very possible so again visit us online and we would want to thank everybody for listening and we hope you join us again next time in Christ the Center you

Channel: Reformed Forum

Views: 14,592

Rating: 4.7831326 out of 5

Keywords: baptism, credo-baptism, hermeneutics, theology, Christian, covenant, covenantal, Reformed, arguments

Id: tDqmENmL_Gk

Length: 58min 57sec (3537 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 08 2012