Banana Island vs. Makoko: Is the rich-poor divide destroying Nigerian society?

this week on the 77 street debate of course if they are going to develop this very place it has to go down because there's nothing for you to renovate here in five years you are going to see a fancy estate here that is going to be sold to people who cannot afford it think of the five big billionaires they can't even spend their wealth in a lifetime and there's a community existing like this so so would they take those kind of money to hell to heaven [Music] hello and welcome back to the 77 this week we are in lagos nigeria more specifically we're in makoko an informal area in this place now recently or the most recent figures by the nigeria bureau of statistics indicate that about 80 million people are living in extreme poverty this means people who earn just over 300 a year but the world bank estimates that that figure will probably have shot up to 100 million by the end of this year that's 2022. and so we're wondering how do those people who live in extreme poverty live side by side with some of the richest on the continent and what does that disparity do to our society well i've got here a panel of very good looking people who are ready to speak to me and i'm going to start with henry who works for oxfam and you also did a report on inequality but before we get to your findings this is the first time that you're here in makoko just give me your views uh so far what what do you think um it's it's quite uh disheartening to see on ground what we analyze on paper or somewhere in the on television or in the media i haven't seen why this place is so disassociated from the rest of the of the country i haven't quite seen a people as impoverished as i'm seeing here today i haven't seen an environment as deserted as i'm seen here today i haven't quite seen lack of government presence like i'm seeing here today it's quite disheartening i must say all right so i want to ask noah who by the way we are at a school and noah is the one who runs the school and so you live in this area how does it feel to hear that your fellow negotiators who live just next door have never been here in this kind of situation the russia gets richer and the poor get poorer because uh this is a community that will be existing for more than 100 years and the population of people living on water here is what i want a thousand people thousands of children at home without education and this is inequality and there's no government presence in these communities okay let me speak to kem for a second so the people you're assisting come from these sorts of communities but is it common for you to hear that the people who live in these communities are excluded as henry was saying from the rest of society yes so most of these women are really excluded from like for us the financial system so most of them they are they are left behind so we are coming to bridge that gap because like you see most of those women they don't have collateral some of them do not have bank accounts they do not have it so we help facilitate that we help them kick start that financial inclusion journey all right before we get to you know what can be done to stop this inequality henry i want to come back to you because i want to understand you know makako has been in existence as we've heard from noah for over a hundred years but how did we get to this place where an entire community is living on the outskirts of a city and being excluded in every set of the world the issue of poverty is not as a result of resources not been available it's because uh resources are available but a few people that's one percent or that five percent have actually hijacked the entire resources and opportunity and so and so for us some of the drivers of inequality right includes uh political uh capture right where politics actually uh those in the political arena actually capture the entire uh opportunity and resources uh the other drivers actually include a high high prohibitive high cost of governance yeah okay let me ask the other oh you would like to add all right let me introduce fun meat uh to the to the to the conversation go on okay um a very big issue that i have found that among people who live here is regressive taxation people in this community are fishermen people here do not really want to leave this place they want this place to be suitable for them to fish and then when they get to the market where they want to sell their fish every time someone is coming to them to say oh you have to pay this tax you have to pay that tax you have to pay this tax now in nigeria they claim that public education is free but then before your child can assess that public education you have to show proof of payment of tax unfortunately the kind of tax that they pay is not the kind of tax that has proved that they pay tax which means that they also have to pay another form of tax i think it's twenty thousand error before they are enrolled into public school so this is a reason why many people here do not have access to education they do not have access to health care and other economic drivers okay let me speak to henry because i wanted to ask him having grown up you grew up in makoko right but not on the water side on the land side are these the realities that you were experiencing every day tell me what growing up there was like so growing up in mauka for me i would say it's like a privilege you get a privilege in the sense that i had to you know try as much as i supposed to learn day by day so yes going with parents if your parents are educated then definitely they really want to push you to do more but in in a scenario by your parents too are not really educated and even the environment you find yourself uh people are not pursuing that level of education and i tell you that you have thousands of children rooming around the streets not going to school yeah so but i'm just opportune that my parents are educated and they fight you know that fight for me to make sure that i attain that degree of education right so what you're describing here is what academics would say is a cycle of poverty daniel is it something that you also experienced no you didn't grow up in makoko but as an informal settlement as well was your experience similar to what we're observing mine is similar but not this extreme because i mean coming from a place where you have to constantly um provide for yourself you have to constantly do things for yourself just like my credit colleague said that the governments are not really interested in our well-being we've seen government organizations come down to these communities just to take pictures because they want to post on social media they want to make it look like they're doing something so i think what is the real problem is not that we don't have the resources but the problem is they really don't see these people as our own okay let me move to fortune who's standing right next to you and he's an advisor actually to a local official and so being the person who informs the kind of decisions that are taken to restore places like this i guess the question is why is nothing changing okay um the truth is what you are seeing here today is not just peculiar to this community this thing transcends you know every other african countries and i want to believe that but really not this extreme yes but what i'm trying to say in a nutshell is this what you are seeing here today is is is a result of greed are you getting is a result of greed you know the african leaders you know they have not conquered greed and that is why they are not empathic to places like this just like what danny just said you know sometimes they go to these slums they take pictures and the rest of it thank god i am here today and i have seen uh firsthand myself i felt so very bad so very pathetic like you know human beings like me are living in this kind of a place are you getting me that's why i said it is not just peculiar to this very place it transcends are you getting me so yes yes yes um before before we before we get to the two of you let me invite uh the other daniel uh yes we have two daniels and two henries i hope you can keep up so daniel we're talking about distribution of resources and i have to ask because you work and founded if i believe follow the money uh where are the gaps every year when the budget is read out there's a lot of money being pumped into the country why isn't it getting here it's been a systemic issue for people not to be able to for government that are supposed to cater for the needs of people who live in this kind of space not to take care of them there is so much greatness so much of a problem of people not understanding the fact that there is need for people to be to be taken care of so leadership is a major problem and that is what we're lacking all right noah you wanted to uh noah wanted to say something to me let's start with him to work for me if we said yeah in nigeria every child deserves education whatever they are we are on water that doesn't mean that children can go to school water and they know how you can take a live feed from the water and put it to the dry land to survive you can never survive how many schools are here noah schools this is a major school on water here we also have some small school within this community do you have any hospitals police stations there's some politicians on water whether you have government school government school government maternity ed speech on water and we've been living here for about 100 years yeah for me it had something to say to me and then henry i'll get to what daniel has said yeah places like this are not developed not because the government does not know that they should develop it but because the government especially the legislative government is bent on commercializing places like this for example banana island which is presently like the most expensive place where you can live in lagos is was islam and we have a lot of people who live here who moved to this place from banana island so places like this are identified by the government and i have read and also spoken with communist members who told me that um in 2008 2012 and i think 2002 this place was about to be demolished and then they got a notification two days ago if i'm right that they have sold displays to some government officials and that in two years this place is completely going to be demolished and then if that happens in five years you are going to see a fancy estate here that is going to be sold to people who cannot afford it and it's still going to be the same rich people that are buying the same assets that we have in nigeria okay let me ask henry because having lived in this community was that a fear that you had because i've heard it said that yeah people don't know if tomorrow they're going to wake up and their house is going to be underwater yeah that's why most people when you look at the houses some of them don't really want to renovate the house because they are scared of okay but tomorrow now the government just come and take all of us away so why am i doing this for the morning point i'm looking at is that okay if governments want them to evacuate this place what are you okay what are source of livelihood how do they want it to keep surviving because these people are fishermen okay they need to fish on water stuff like that so if they are going to take them out of where they stay where are they putting them so right let me let me let me ask for for a second here because based on this on the in the rooms you sit with is the plan to get rid of informal settlements like makoko recently there was something that happened in a particular community in lagos state and you know it was discovered that you know some persons and grabbed a particular place you know gave it out to the acronyms but our incubator gov no you know he came to set the standard state and you know straight and he ensured that you know the rifle owners of the proxies you know had access to their properties and it is still for the people in that community are you getting me so sometimes i think we we are also having issues with information i'm not telling you that some of these things are not happening are you getting me but with what i know right now the the the present governor we have in lagos state is a very very as impressive governor like you know he's very emphatic yes henry who had something to say to me earlier and then we'll come to you noah yes i i wanted to mention uh the fact that when he mentioned greed at first and i said i recall what happened just two weeks ago of a particular government official who was accused of stealing 80 billion and i can imagine what 80 billion can do in this macro community it can actually build you know up to three four schools here it can build up to four other hospitals of international standards provide the basic amenities for this particular community but what we see is the reverse well we see the reverse because most of these government officials their kids are in school abroad in the uk in the u.s and all of that they go for for for health tourism themselves you know they don't even eat locally yeah so so someone can actually actually go to london and watch and watch uh arsenal match for example and then come back and even have breakfast in lagos so it's it's so it's so pathetic that some of these government officials don't exactly care and next year's election they'll be all about eating with the people and in local places you know asking them to vote for them they'll be all about riding bosses with people and on the streets begging for votes once they secure these votes come 2023 they disappeared from the streets okay they're back in their courtroom so there's uh distrust not distrust but there's lack of transparency from the people who are running for office in as far as what their plans are with this area okay but daniel i i want to give daniel a chance to talk about what he's doing because while we're hearing that there's very little empathy going around you're actually doing something to try and transform these communities tell us what you're doing way back in 2015 i started talking to my friends i said that we need to start teaching our friends our fellow friends within the community graphics design coding um microsoft excel we need them to learn a skill so they can provide for themselves because it doesn't seem like we have jobs but when we started we noticed there was a problem because most of us we didn't now i'm using us because it's inclusive now most of us from our community don't know how to read and write in english so that was when we started um providing them with basic skills like how to understand english how to write in english how to solve mathematics and from there the idea grew we started getting um we started getting notice from bigger organizations within our communities people who only invest in communities like this when there's something when there's something to gain okay i want to move the conversation along because unfortunately the rain is threatening to throw this party off but we must continue so one of the consequences no i want to come back to you because we've heard a lot about insecurity in this country i'm wondering if it's a symptom of inequality what are some of the things that you're seeing as a result of people being left behind if there's any college in the country you can see some some guys joining they decided to join people that are doing riots because they don't have jobs to do they don't know what to do right under in this kind of tradition government should need to do something yeah for me i'd like to hear what uh this sort of or this level of inequality does for women because unfortunately our gender is always disproportionately affected when it comes to issues like this in communities like this there are high cases of forced marriages child marriages teammate pregnancy abuse and rape because of we have cultural certain cultural and traditional beliefs that tend to think that women are of the lesser value women should get married as soon as possible but we have found out that many government policies that we have in nigeria people in this community do not know about it because we have very we have no government presence here also when women are forcefully married out when women are raped when women face domestic violence we do not have support for them here how has the federal government try to reach communities like this to ensure that women in this community have saved them all right let me ask fortune that same question you did speak very highly about your governor earlier but the question is why hasn't that governor brought schools hospitals police stations to this place if you think so highly of it okay when we talk about development when we talk about growth it is not just an automatic thing are you getting me it's it's it takes gradual process so for me i haven't uh getting rid of this very place because i know that sometimes in the future anything can come up are you getting me no i don't i don't understand that so you don't develop it because of what might happen in the future no no no i'm not saying it's not going to be developed you know at the moment right now i don't even know what is the plan of the government concerning this right place because i don't even know that a place like this does exist i'm just having the idea today so i cannot actually say okay this is what has been there or this is what is going to happen yeah okay danielle uh let me let me let me come to henry and daniel you're itching talk to me talk to me down here so um it is obvious that there is no sustainable plan by government evidently on how to make this place what is supposed to be the only time we get to hear government in the news around cages like this is where okay we need to demolish this place okay we need to find a place or maybe move even in the in the area of moving the people there is no sustainable plan yeah to move them to a place that you say okay this is a better option i mean as noah said i don't think moving is the option because they're fishermen they don't want to exactly so if since they are they really want to stay here what is that plan for this country henry henry okay one at the time government posts are always full of excuses trust me and and he has he has given us a very fantastic but again you see you see a community like this is is similar to the eco area where we are the lands the last weeks the private projects lands were gained from the sea from the waters why can't they gain this land from these waters and they hand it over back to the people and they give them access to the sea where they can fish because it's not government piracy because they are parity they will get it for themselves and use it for their own good think of the big names in nigeria all the only five big billionaires they can't even spend their wealth in a lifetime and there's a community existing like this so so would they take those kind of money to hell to heaven why don't they why don't they begin to look at look at other means of of actually reducing those resources through taxes these issues are because government do not prioritize the informal economy trust me that tax in the second this this environment all right but there are no chances yes fortunately unfortunately yeah see area i was going to say something here see let me just tell you let me just tell you this he was saying something about you know demolition affecting the people and the rest of it if you want change there is consequences for change are you getting me if this very place is going to experience development automatically every inhabitant of this very place must be affected so it's not like maybe i am defending the government or whatsoever if they are going to develop this very place it is not something of two years because this place is water logged are you getting me so is something that will take years at the same time at the same time it depends on the kind of development we're looking at are we talking about developing the sense that you want to demolish if they are looking at of course if they are going to develop this very place it has to go down because there's nothing for you to renovate here now okay okay let me let me abuja abuja became a capital abuja became a capital in in 1989 from moving moving from lagos to afghanistan from lagos to abuja a lot of things happen a lot of things happening in abuja everyone everyone while i love the energy of this debate we need to have it be one person at a time henry let's hear from you yes so so when when when cut the capital moved to abuja those the individuals of abuja were affected and they were actually relocated to a safe place before those areas were developed when they were developed they moved them back to the absolutely isn't that what fortune is saying that something has it's not it's not exactly the same what what they can do right is the same thing that they did in abuja relocate them relocate them out develop the place and bring them back okay okay so i'm sorry we have to wrap up and so i've got to ask for solutions i need to know what the nigerian government can do what african governments can do to close the gap between the rich and the poor let's hear from you daniel okay in terms of solutions i think what needs to be done is proper sensitization within this community we need to first of all the government needs to come down into this place and make them feel loved first they need to be empowered they need to know that the government care there are younger people here she talked about um the rate of raping within this community the girls need to be taken care of there need to be education within this place exactly need skills we live in a community where it's either yourself employed or you're not doing anything so we need to empower this people definitely when you talk about people from this place they only perceive them to be street kids to cause violence to cost new zealand and these things aren't intentional so for the government to see change for the government to see um progress they need to bring these people into the system unfortunately you've got something to say to me when i started i said our problem in africa is great now for those things that daniel mentioned to become a reality one the african government must conquer greed number two henry said our legislators are the third highest speed in the world they have to cut on governments got down on government costs you know they won't no it's possible no it's possible there's a whole lot going on in africa right now a whole lot of revolutions and the rest of it i'm telling you nothing but the gospel truth if this is what's happened our government in africa must conquer greed okay because there's so much there's enormous resources in africa to take care of places like this but the problem is this that a few are just sitting on the common weights of the masses all right cam let me hear from you any solutions for me how do we stop income inequality so for me the solution i'll give to the government is for informal settlements like this data is key so how do you do you know how many people live here then for this settlement you can create um low-cost housing for these people so and you they need to empower their women so because we believe that when you empower a woman she empowers our community so creating solutions to to bring about economic opportunities for the people in these communities so skills development access to finance it's very key because you can teach me a skill but if i don't have the working tools i won't go and start a business so most of these people here they don't even know that there are organizations that can help them you don't need to stay in your community to be empowered you can go outside be empowered and you come back and change your community fantastic daniel let's hear from you okay so i think government needs to show sincerity and commitment make sure people here are the environment is livable for them the resources that are meant for them please let it get to them make them feel like they belong to the larger society okay henry you said something earlier about the richest man not being able to spend his wealth in a lifetime but should he give it up i mean if you had billions would you give it up um the government should be deliberate about it government should use the instrument of tax to redistribute that kind of resources yeah such that uh the poorest of person can actually have access to the most basic of facilities and amenities what government can also do is to be purposefully deliberate to invest in critical sectors yeah like health education and infrastructure to also ensure that these people have access to them government can as well ensure that young people have jobs yeah because the reason why you save a lot of insecurity in the countries because these guys don't have jobs if you create jobs for them and give them a meaningful environment they will not be understood they'll not be honest carrying guns and killing their fellow human beings and i think our government should be able to deliver to your house a possibility come 2023. okay funny do you have any ideas of what we can do to end wealth inequality the government needs to start listening to people from communities such as this and stop stop listening to just policy experts who have most likely never stepped their feet into this community for example if you ask many people they will say oh move them out of this community and people from this community are saying we want to live here we just want to make it better so communities such as this should be listening to halftown or missions engage with them when you engage with them and listen to them you know exactly what fits for people in each community okay and i'd like to close this debate by asking noah personal question if you had it your way and you had all the money in the world and the power what would be the first three things you would do for the people of makoko the first thing they will do is to make sure they have access to education second is to make sure that they are medical care within the community it's the third one is to empower the youth because i i have people who were born and brought up on water here he's he has over 40 years but he have never stepped on lunch and he's very comfortable living here good fishing coming back that that means to tell you that living on water is our culture yeah i was born and brought up here if if i didn't have the opportunity to go to school i can't be speaking to you like this correct that's why i want the next generation to have access to education right thank you thank you so much noah and thank you to our panelists who have braved the boats to come here who have braved the weather to stay and us speak to us and also i have to thank the crew today for also enduring the same and to you our dear viewers thank you for watching [Music]

Channel: DW The 77 Percent

Views: 61,364

Keywords: DW, DW Africa, Africa, Nigeria, Lagos, income inequality, #poverty, #street debate, The 77 Percent

Id: 373PhKW1s2c

Length: 25min 37sec (1537 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 26 2022