Backstage at Lincoln Center (1994) - Wynton Marsalis

swinging and playing the blues that's what we that's what we about Beethoven wanted people to like his music he didn't say oh well you know they'll hear this in 25 years he would say that after they rejected it and he was hurt PC yeah well maybe they'll hear this from 25 years the jazz musician takes all of that information and filters it through the Blues sensibility and turns it into American art wynton marsalis is the major figure in jazz today leading a drive at Lincoln Center and around the world both to preserve the past and determine the future of what he calls the music most appropriate to our times and to our country he'll be featured on the next live from Lincoln Center telecast which I hope you'll be looking for Wynton has moved easily between the classical and jazz world for many years as probably our finest trumpet player and he's only in his early 30s when you switched over from classical music to jazz and I've always thought you did that because you were bored I mean there are only three trumpet controls you can play The Hiding trumpet concerto the hiding trumpet guitar on the Hyden trumpet concerto you know it must have been were you just bored or what well original started off playing jazz but when you when you're young and a jazz musician useful said that you can't call yourself a jazz musician my father's a jazz musician in my entire life I've always wanted to be a jazz musician the only reason I really got into classical music was I heard the tape of Marisa Andre and I like the way he sounded but my favorite trumpet players were always jazz trumpet players Clifford Brown early Miles Davis Freddie Hubbard book a little because they played much more trumpet than anything that had ever existed in classical music so why did you play classical because I like Maurice Andre really you want to be him when you grew up well I didn't want to be him I wanted I wanted to be more like a combination of him and Freddie over the miles and Clifford Brown and Coltrane but uh I always played jazz all the time I play with our Blake in the Jazz Messengers when I was 18 before that I was in high school I always had some kind of gig trying to learn how to play mm-hmm I think about jazz is very difficult to learn how to play in classical music is great at you have musical camps you can go to conservatories you know you can church a development and jazz you have to you have to learn how to play the music you have to recruit other musicians around your same generation who want to play in my case I was fortunate because my father is a jazz musician and a very informed educator so I always could understand the difference between jazz and other things well what kind of training is it I mean if you were like it's not just question playing scales first you have to learn how to play some blues yeah okay that's that's non one you have not playing all keys how to improvise on the basic forms like rhythm changes standard songs all the things you are all these songs in all keys you have to learn how to swing which is to play with a certain rhythmic attitude you have to learn rhythms you have to there's so many things to learn you have to learn the history of the art form so that you can participate in the dialogue with other musicians are you apprentice in with masters like when I played with the great Art Blakey I had the opportunity to hear the sound of jazz in action every night so rather than just having a discussion or sitting up with some somebody who's very really removed from the practice of an art with some rules then I could see what a person who actually lives the art form the way that they play in a type of intensity and seriousness that they bring to every performance now the information can be transferred this way much more directly yes much much more powerful way to receive information so it's really being close to a personality that's a real strong jazz personality that a major part of the training well in my case it helped me not just a person actually a great musician who can tell you what you need to do to learn how to play tell you does he show he tells you and he shows you he'll show you and if you don't understand when he shows you then he will tell you so for instance is there anything specific you can but like what would you say well I could you tell like I will be playing I would be playing balance and I hope play like real fast like ballads in here and he would say uh he wouldn't tell me anything for a while and he say man a ballad is not a cadenza and then he said do you know the worst that is song I'll say well yeah not really you say well learn the worst of the songs on a lot of things I learned from him I didn't really understand until maybe four or five years after I had really departed from the group do you find yourself saying the same thing to younger players now well as much of it as I can show I mean they tell him to learn the words oh yeah yeah yeah but it is more than just listening and I mean now that I suppose when Louis Armstrong was starting out he didn't have a lot of records to listen to well he didn't have records but he listened to the greatest trumpeters in the world at that time which would be King Oliver Freddie kept with bunk Johnson the echo of Buddy Bolden was still in the sky yeah so these were certain type of people first day what kind of country so that meant that the sophisticated things were even more important to them it's like I always think about my great uncle's handwriting he was like 90-something when he died he was born in 1890 and he was a somewhat of a provincial guy but his handwriting was very meticulous because he was very proud of the ability to write so that means when he was writing it meant something very special to him and I feel the same thing when I look at a score of Duke Ellington's music it's so meticulously written now even a sketch it's so clear every accidental is in place all of the you can't believe somebody would do this do this in a sketch because if you look at a sketch of Beethoven's music it is you can't even distinguish with the note saw but with Duke Ellington is very very clear and it has that feeling of someone who is coming into contact with with the thing that was previously denied them they deal with it with a certain level of real seriousness and specificity would it mean denied them well something like education wasn't something you could take for granted in 1890 if you are an American Negro hmm african-american or black or whatever the determines that we use now yeah you couldn't take that for granted you saw the ability to write his his father probably couldn't write alright so when he wrote that meant something and also when these men played their horns like Buddy Bolden played the trumpet a certain way now no one has ever heard him but I can just feel the type of soul and seriousness that he would play with I read once when Louis Armstrong said about King Oliver did King Oliver taught him how to play the trumpet with dignity and Luke King Oliver has tremendous dignity in his sound tremendous eye when you when you really get to where you can understand what his sound is he plays with a certain type of pride and the Declaration of individuality and it uh that's what informed Louis Armstrong when Louis Armstrong plays Dinah what are you seeing here there what hoof man just tell me a bit first thing is just the joy he's having a good time and then the phrasing of it like he takes a song that's essentially was saying don know is there anyone fine in the state of Kerala corny he comes in here teddy dr. 2:30 don't put it dab it up the thing that he does to this song is he transforms it into another whole what is that that he was doing cuz he does something else he makes it American like he put something else in it it makes his swing he infuses it with another type of life of course the sound of this trumpet will help me you sound as if you know the whole thing by heart that is you could actually stand up and I could come close to it I don't know I don't really know it but I've heard it enough times yeah but do you see jazz growing out of Beethoven Brahms Tchaikovsky in a continuity of music history jazz music has grown out of all music that has existed in the world they are the musicians like all the pianist in the 30s who were really trained in classical music Teddy Wilson people like Willie the lion Smith it a lot of jazz musicians studied in conservatories Thelonious Monk went to Juilliard Miles Davis went to Juilliard yeah the jazz musicians traditionally we have always been amenable to learning from whatever music was available whether it's a classical musician or folk blues musician or an Indian musician because the jazz musician takes all of that information and filters it through the Blues sensibility and turns it into American art the problem we have in America is we evolved so long to the feet of Europe and I'm a person who has tremendous respect for European music I love Beethoven's music and Bach's music and they've played a lot of it have scores have studied it but I just I don't identify with it like I identify with something that's winging it or with the blues and it's not because the Blues is more of a folk element all this folklore that's been attached it's because the Blues address is more specifically the meanings of American life you mean because you can play New Orleans jazz now in a contemporary way whereas you can't play Prokofiev in a contemporary way no because jazz music is a celebration of individuals negotiating their identity through a harmonic form whereas when you play for coffee if you play trumpet if I play Prokofiev fear Feaster trumpet play that G a little louder yes maestro in jazz you don't you don't have that situation so in other words you see the jazz musician as a cadet in the same way as you would a composer and a classical musician looks at a composer and a performer as yeah that's like that with the European society as opposed to American mm-hmm see also agrarian cultures like the European culture around the time of Vito and they were agricultural with society we're not that way with technological we deal with it with other the we have skyscrapers we people stacked on top of each other we need communication skills are we we have the right to vote now we might not use it but we do have a chance to influence the culture in a much greater way than some I like Beethoven would have been thinking of he was fighting just to not get off the street for a prince we'll see we don't have to do that and that's something that especially coming from the afro-american culture we have always been cognizant of that because our rights have been denied for so long taken away and denied and even once they were no longer denied then the definition of our achievements have been far less than what they actually are so there's always been a battle that goes on in American society not just between black and white because there are people on many sides of the struggle of both races who are trying to see our country become a greater version of itself because that is what democracy is this a process and the thing that lets us know whether our system is working is the integrity of that process there's no absolute we can't say ok we ever we've achieved this we're always on the way to achieving and that is how jazz music is it's not perfect on the page like classical music but you're making it sound as if jazz music to you is almost a political it's instrument it's an art form and it was created by the American people to deal with American aspirations and ideals so in that way it has to be that because it addresses our form of life our way of living but you see when it's absorbed or taken in through a blues Sensibility do you have to be black to play blues anybody can play blues it's like playing basketball anybody can play basketball quite a lot better than not yes well that's what that is but the question of playing basketball is still playing basketball that's like doing math or anything that exists you know you can do anything you want to do now if if I want to be Louis Armstrong I'm not gonna be him that's just how that is but that doesn't mean I can't play I'm not gonna be Michael Jordan either but I like played basketball but all the things you're talking about with communication are all technological things and you play basically acoustic jazz in other words you're not taking advantage of that technology recording phonograph record CD these camps yeah but the question of a synthesizer is it doesn't necessarily whether an instrument doesn't alter what you it doesn't change what you're doing like I could get a synthesizer in my band it wouldn't change my approach to music like the synthesizer itself okay we have a synthesizer now all it does is produce tones like what I'm speaking of now is the synthesizer is not the great achievement in 20th century technology or in 20th century life as much as the camera is all the radio of the satellite technology or rocket so you know there are many things that will define the 20th century the synthesizer won't be one of them but you've been somewhat reluctant about pop music do you differentiate between pop music and jazz there's a big differentiation between pop music and jazz oh what's that one of the first thing is that pop music has one major beat this on pop music don't bat the bat look at you enjoy it anyways I grew up playing that's the beat of popular music huh popular music Duke Ellington mr. music is very different from that now the fact that those who in the so-called culture of America don't understand what those differences are but like our Mario says we're not trying to establish that difference to look down on pop music we're trying to establish that difference so that those who are interested in learning how to play jazz will know what the difference is and so that the public will understand what the difference is tell me a little more what the difference is popular music today one person plays a track at another person plays a tracking another person plays a track jazz deals with thematic improvisation collective group thematic improvisation that means that all musicians have to be together to play jazz musicians generally play and many many more keys well there are forms of popular music today when a lot of people who make it are not even really musicians so they don't deal with keys they have more of like a snip and paste type of style collage style you mean it's all done technically technologically yes it's technological so the concepts that they deal with are very different from the one that we deal with jazz music is concerned with expression on instruments expression whereas electronic instruments are not really designed to be expressive expressive of a personality you can have a touch on an electronic instrument but when you play an instrument the tone of the instrument itself can help you to shape and find your personality but let me ask you but you said that jazz is essentially swing and blues tell me a bit about blues because obviously you don't have to be blue to play blues you know what why do you call out a musical form well the Blues it to me the Blues is the greatest form there's every existing form at all because it's 12 bars so it's a form a unit of time and you you improvise against this unit of time it's like a jazz improvisation is like a plane a sport a sporting event something you have a court let's say you play basketball you have a court and you have two baskets you get the round rings so you play basketball inside of the court and the form is the same way when you're improvising you play the improvisation in the context of the form now the Blues form addresses the three fundamental harmonies in all of Western music if you study traditional harmony your first lesson you're gonna learn is the 1 chord the 5 chord and the 4 chord it's like a a 3 thing one is in the middle and beneath it is the 4 and above it is the 5 so you you just and the 1 is the 5 of the 4 and the 5 so on and so forth but those are the three central harmonies of the blues if you listen to folk music anywhere in the world you will hear something that sounds like blues in it it can be played people flannels big fruit it was song like blues it could be Middle Eastern music with her there's something in the blues it sounds like that has no chord progression at all that we but this we're not talking about the harmonic structure now we're talking about the melodic properties of the blues and the textural properties of the blues also the blues has rhythmic properties so with the blues rhythm is the shuffle and the shuffle is is akin to the blues form it's a it's a that's a perfect unit of rhythm because it contains the two basic rhythms you know and most Western music which is the march in the waltz watch it don't don't don't put them but to put the pumpin tip on the walls to do doom dubiduba doom to doom the shuffle dink dink dink dink the one two three one two three one two three one two three one two one two one two what we call it blues you think of it as a move rather than a form well that's when you that's when you only understand the blues is blues Albert Marie has written a great book called stomping the blues and he explains the different way different forms of the blues like the there's the blues as in a mood where you say I'm blue that you just said but then there's the blues there's music now the Blues as music the Blues is like a vaccine and it gives you the smallpox to take the smallpox away that's what cute and that's what the Blues is you give you play the blues too without mercy is just stomp the blues away you mean your place of it said a sad piece of music to keep you from being sad it's not sad when you play it because you plan with it and and that's what the rhythm does in the blues if you may play the saddest you busy doo doo dee bee dee doo doo doo doo doo doo doo dee that I said but if you say doo doo dee doo doo doo doo doo boo doo doo doo doo doo look now it's much less say oh I feel better yeah I'm saying you need a new tack tell me about now what you're doing with jazz in the sense of putting it in a concert hall I mean aren't you sort of taking jazz out of context and putting it in a concert hall what jazz has been in the concert hall since the 1930s Duke Ellington near Carnegie Hall concerts in 1942 and 43 and here we are in 1994 still from that same question so the question of jazz being in a concert hall and whether it's in a club or whether it's in a dance hall the best place for jazz is a dance hall why because people can dance if they want and they can listen if they want to both of those things can go on now a club is an okay place for chamber music type jazz and a concert hall is a fine place for a concert for any type of music be it religious music jazz music my feeling is the music should be played anywhere that it can be played in the world be it in gazebos in people's homes concert halls person I've played music everywhere and cathedrals and the greatest concert halls and the dizziest clubs and I have to be honest with you that my feeling in all of those places it's not it's not really that different in pits whenever my own is in my hand I'm trying to play some music and be it and in the Alice Tully Hall Avery Fisher Hall a lot in pools Park you still playing for people who want to be made to feel good by your music so what are you doing your Lincoln Center I mean why he's having a good time Mack came to New York to go to Lincoln Center to be in Julliard to go to Juilliard School because I'd always heard about it and uh we have a good time at Lincoln Center we have film projects we have lectures we have see we send kids out into the public school system we want to have picnics we want to have festivals that we want to invite the community into what we're doing Lincoln Center is not some place where the hallowed halls of Lincoln Center it's just a group of buildings that are inhabited by people who are presenting the arts to the public and when the public comes for our concerts for young people or whatever we invite them into it it's not like well you can consent and also you know we are part of Lincoln Center and we bring that feeling this essential to any any real community experience which is the feeling of soul which means you're welcome here you don't have to come in and act like you you know they're playing some jazz now come in sit down check the music out and they have a good time what about the idea that there's a lot of what people consider jazz that you don't play I mean there do you leave things out well we have a vision of what jazz is and our program is true to that vision and I like always your program it's our program ok myself Stanley Crouch Rob Gibson okay we have we have as our we all decide what was gonna wear the grown-ups well we determined what is gonna go on in our program we have a direction we have a vision and we're true to that vision a lot of our vision comes from Albert Murray and we believe in that vision now we are not against other people's vision being articulated at all we are supportive every jazz program because we believe is the music needs as many programs as possible to make it available to the public but we cannot present what everybody thinks we should be presenting you know it's like if you're the president of a country you can't do it you can't make everybody happy you have to go in a direction and let the chips fall where they mean you have to want you have to present something to people that can be rejected and it can hurt the dis reject it you can't say well they won't understand this you know 50 years they'll get it that gives your artist so it doesn't have the connection with the public that it has to have Beethoven wanted people to like his music he didn't say oh well you know they'll hear this in 25 years he would say that after they rejected it and he was hurt PC yeah well maybe they'll hear this in 25 years and that is what we're going to do and whether we were criticized for it are celebrated for it we have a philosophical direction that we feel is sound and we will continue to pursue that direction can you articulate in some way what that direction is as opposed to fusion jazz swinging and playing the blues that's what we that's what we about we're about doing that extension elaboration and refinement on blues idiom statement not to to it put down any other styles because many times in the media it gets distorted as if we're attacking other styles those styles are fine but just that's not what we're doing jazz is audience is about the same size I guess is classical music audience is right but jazz audience could always be bigger so could classical music all we need is an investment but jazz has a much better chance than classical music why is that because it's more pertinent to today jazz music has more of the sound of this country in it now once again I want to see jazz and classical music be popular in no way do I want to seem like I'm denigrating classical music because I feel that classical music is an important part of the foundation of a jazz musician and I'm in in thorough support of all the classical music camps I have scholarships for kids at them and uh I believe in that type of training so I don't want to set up this thing over here with classical music but jazz music is about 20th century so that you see that that jazz is moving forward in the 20th century you see the classical music struggling to find its way well I feel that classical composers really went in in a strange direction it was I feel that it became - it's over refinement and you have to deal with God and romance like you have those two things that you're dealing with a man and a woman and the Creator and these things are the substance of art and when when it when these two things are pushed down and what you have conceived of becomes the most important and you your yard will sound like a lot of what we hear sounds like now you may be able to go stamp to a blackboard and explain it you might be a genius of music but even an informed public will not be that interested in your music because it doesn't really give them the necessary tools for living it doesn't make them feel good about living in the world in your music you want to inspire that in people I believe in the jazz vision that the optimistic vision yes it's bad the Blues it's bad out here but it's gonna be cool I think that's great thanks for doing anyway

Channel: Wynton Marsalis

Views: 27,834

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Keywords: Backstage, Lincoln, Center, philosophy, interview, jazz, trumpet, wynton marsalis, orchestra, big band music, footage, blues, new, orleans, piano, louisiana

Id: gljBgb0Qi_8

Length: 26min 10sec (1570 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 22 2011