Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Identity Politics And Its Tribal Branches | Hoover Virtual Policy Briefing

[Music] welcome to the Hoover virtual policy review series I'm Tom Gilligan director of the Hoover Institution for more than a century the Hoover Institution and world-renowned Library Archives have been collecting knowledge and generating ideas that support the pursuit of freedom and endeavor to improve the human condition we've been able to occupy an immanent place in the think tank landscape by maintaining a focus on scholarly and empirical research that ask bolts questions offers powerful solutions for policymakers and advances idea is to improve people's lives these briefings is one of many ways we're able to reach out and share some of the important work coming out of the institution as a reminder we'll be taking audience questions and I encourage you to submit yours using the Q&A button located at the bottom of your screen today's discussion is with ayaan Hirsi Ali I own as a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and the founder of the aah a foundation from 2003 to 2006 she served as a member of the Dutch parliament she was named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people of 2005 one of the glamor heroes of 2005 and Reader's Digest European of the year for 2005 she is also a best-selling author of books entitled infidel and a second book entitled heretic why Islam needs a Reformation now well again ayaan thanks for being here today we really appreciate you spending time with us Tom thank you thank you very much for having me and thank you very much for doing this great since we scheduled you to join us a few weeks ago recent events seem to been prompted seem to have prompted a tipping point of sorts and led us to a national discussion on race and race relations making our discussion on identity politics and his tribe a branch is very salient as you know our Hoover scholars are dedicated to rigorous empirical research so let's start by defining some often politically charged terms that we hear in the current debate what is identity politics how should we understand it identity politics is it's all about an attempt to to emphasize your identity and I'm talking about the immutable character traits such as race and gender and LGBT just taking immutable character traits to advance political gain I want I know will soon talk about the word intersectionality coined by a woman called kimberlé crenshaw sometime in the 1980s and that's for instance to say that the in order to to talk about your status as a person who is first of all it's to view the world as oppressor versus oppressed so you your prism the prism through which you view society is one that is centered around power it's all about power relationships and in that power relationship you have those who have power and those who don't those who are oppressed those who are victims and identity politics is really all about that it says that it is it's you are either an oppressor or you are oppressed because of your identity so just to clarify for reasons of say political organization or political achieving political objective objectives identity politics it's likely to gather people more by race gender or sexual orientation immutable characteristics of the individual rather than say economic interest or geography or political jurisdiction etc that's point one to point to is identity politics it really looks at and features prominently in their analysis the power relationships that exist amongst people in different identity groups is that fair to say yes that's fair to say yeah and then with your experience in life has been expressly inter inter woven with tribalism and tribalism in Africa tell us a little about your experience with tribal is and how's why is that a relevant feature for trying to understand the current American political scene so when I started to look into these ideas and really ideology around identity politics and its vocabulary it reminded me of tribalism because again if you're a member of a tribe if you've ever lived in Africa the Middle East really pretty much outside of the West your identity is determined by your tribe or your clan the group that you belong to and the group that you belong to demands that you're loyal a hundred percent but implicit in that loyalty is that we are very often on a hostile footing with the other the other collective the other tribes and it's very interesting when you read the literature produced by those who are proponents of identity politics that they're pushing us back into tribalism when we found nation-states I think it was an attempt to move away from tribes and to get to some kind of you know a society where the relationship between individuals and groups is one where we all identify with the nation and are loyal to the nation it's called patriotism but that Patriot is it so we took patriotism away from the tribe and gave it to the nation and the United States is this huge country over 340 million people it's heterogeneous when the idea is that we are loyal to the nation to the idea of what America is identity politics wants to take us back to that micro collective of the tribe or the clan and where you just assume that first of all we're collectives and not individuals and that the other collective the other tribe is sinister and somehow want to they weren't the worst for us so we better be prepared so you're there's a level of distrust in a tribal society that is impossible to sustain say in a democracy like ours you just joined us I'm Tom Gilligan and this is the Hoover institutions virtual policy briefing with ayaan Hirsi Ali ion what are some of the long-term risk associated with tribalism and identity politics in the United States well if you look at tribal societies what you see it really is the biggest problem is fragmentation it's this distrust tribes don't trust one another you go to the top of society because if who you know within your tribe you either belong to a powerful tribe or you belong to a somewhat weaker tribe or maybe a tribe that's very much oppressed we have in countries like India we have outcasts I come from Somalia there are tribes and clans that just don't make the cut are still enslaved by the way now if in the United States we go down the path of identity politics the danger the implication is that we are going to fragment our already polarized society not along the lines of individuals coming together and associating and organizing around their common interest but associating and organizing and being expected to do that along these immutable biological traits such as skin color gender LGBTQ and and and I think that is the wrong path to go down how do you let me push back on that on how do you respond to the idea that identity politics or this this neo tribalism is encouraged by people's view that the system is set up in ways that engender systemic racism or institutional racism or doesn't promote equality of opportunity across people based on race gender sexual preference etc I think the most powerful way to push back against this is to emphasize our common humanity which is what the United States Constitution dance and the United States found in principles of freedom of equality again this is a utopia we haven't attained fully freedom we haven't achieved full equality we could it's where a dynamic society we continue to try over and over and over again but what is going to get us there our founding principles of Liberty of capitalism of freedom of religion freedom of speech of academic freedom it's these principles and these values that are going to get us to become closer and closer again because these values emphasize our common humanity mmm you and I doesn't matter male-female age class we are to begin with we're humans and to recognize us as individuals and to protect our rights and our freedoms as individuals it's these universal principles that I think will get us out of the muck and it is the way to proceed it is the way to stand up to the proponents of identity politics of segregation of fragmentation and this is the only way we and a way to do it is appeal to the common American the average American it's a common-sense thing now and it doesn't matter what your skin color is the principles of freedom and equality are far more appealing or more attractive than what black lives matter as an organization is pushing forward today and the other organizations that are dedicated to identity politics just I understand you're busy you you don't quibble with the demands for social justice and equality for people based on race and gender etc you just think they are better achieved through a universalistic system then through a tribalistic identity politics system I am committed to social justice for everyone every individual regardless of their color their gender and where they are born that is the idea of America remember when America was founded people left Europe because these social hierarchies were set in stone there was almost no social mobility in some places none at all and when people started coming to America from different classes in different countries they had they found the freedom to pursue their happiness this continues to this day America is still the most attractive destination for all humans anywhere and I think when you want to achieve and if you want to promote the idea of social justice you're going to have to start with the idea that every individual regardless of where they come from will have an opportunity to try to pursue their happiness that's what American represents for the world and these proponents of identity politics are against them because they're emphasizing our differences not our commonality yeah and we have a question this is just a clarifying question on what identity is what it means that I've made politics rich asked is religion a tribe or an identity is our religious beliefs a sense of identity for us or how do you or is that distinct from identity that's based on an immutable concept like race gender sexual orientation etc human identity is complex you are not just one thing it's not just your immutable your biological you know I'm female or black or it's very complex it's also those people you choose to identify with if you are born into a religion religion is part of your identity it's not the whole of it to be black is not the skin color is just a little part of who I am it's not everything that is how we should view it and with this human complexity of who we are and where we come from and the accumulation of age and my identity is now different now that I'm 50 from what it was when I was 25 and how I viewed the world and how I viewed myself and to the world this is it's all very dynamic can we have this in America but these proponents of identity policies are trying to push down our throats that we are not only different but that it's all set in stone and that if only we were to adopt their orthodoxy if only we were to become a part of their cult then only would we achieve social justice now where have we seen that before do you remember those utopian ideologies communism socialism national socialism human beings have been trying to do this for a long time but it's what made America different you didn't have to have one religion you could have your own religion or no religion and I know we have racism I know we have problems and we have very big problems with huge problems of inequality in the richest country in the world but we are not going to find solutions to these problems with the frameworks and the political and policy propositions that the identity politics people are pushing let's push on that a little bit it's clear that the tenants are the values of identity politics are animated in current political discussions are those ideas currently being ineffectively or improperly used to address critical policy issues let's take race so after George George Floyd's murder we really heightened didn't elevated and amplified the discussion around police reforms including policies like defund the police etc do you think the values that are being imported through the idea of identity politics isn't helping the debate about how to reform police scene to make it more or less less discriminatory Tom what we saw all of us when we saw the video of the killing of judge Floyd was we as a nation we were collectively horrified we were disgusted and we were outraged and absolutely justified and we are seeking justice not just for judge Floyd but indeed the underlying problems with the police and with the police force we also at the same time those of us who are interested in finding solutions we also value law enforcement we value the rule of law the killer of judge Floyd is going through the justice system that we've built the identity politics people want to bring the whole thing down they want to abolish the police they're saying they want the police defunded now that is going to harm more blacks more poor people more women who are victims of domestic violence than anyone else so again the common American the average American is going to look for answers in a very practical solution oriented approaches what can we do to reform the police to make the police better what can we do to make the social conditions of african-americans and in particular african-american men better how would can we do to improve that we're going we can have a conversation along those lines but the identity politics people who have as their umbrella black lives matter is not interested in that yeah it wants to bring the system down and what is unfortunate is that many of us sitting down we're just simply too frightened we're frightened because we're seeing people being removed from their jobs people been ostracized been contra cysts so anyone who might have to offer a valuable solution cannot because who wants to be fired from their jobs who wants to touch this yeah and here's an interesting question that leads into an even bigger idea and you're asked in the past I've heard demands for educational and career opportunities characterizing social justice in other words career and educational equality of opportunities it has to be a hallmark of social justice today is focused on the police and a to take what's yours he put that in quote right to take what's happened I guess I'll put the hint Andrews question and a broader question about reparations financial payments to African Americans has been lifted up again as a way to ameliorate some of the social injustice and harm that was done to them through the institution of slavery that appears to be an argument that comes you know out of torts and retributive justice but also out of identity politics what do you think about Andrews question and the advisability of an ocean-like reparations for advancing social justice in America what I'd like to say to Andrew is yes it's still the common sense approach if you want to lift yourself out of poverty and if you want to lift others out of poverty you invest in education education education obviously it depends on what kind of education we have to make a distinction between education and indoctrination which is I think what our universities and higher education systems for a while have been doing now is they were not educating young minds they were indoctrinating them with his nonsense now the reparations story and the you know America's irredeemably racist and all white people especially all white men are to blame for everything that goes wrong not just in America but in the entire world I think that narrative distracts distracts from the conditions of poor people it doesn't help what it does is it empowers those people with an agenda who are using the misfortunes of black Americans of women of transgender people to find power for themselves and as just the general public I am a member of the general public I look at these things I read about and I'm interested and excited by the people who have to offer solutions perspective things that have worked in some communities maybe in other countries but if they come along and they say and they just keep saying talking about slavery let's talk about slavery there are still countries in the world where there are slaves this modern-day slavery where people are exploited and trafficked in and prostituted why are they not talking about today 2020 slavery and keep harping on what happened 200 years ago when in fact that slavery has been abolished we've had a civil war of it we've had the civil rights movement we've had riots we've had all sorts of things are we going to say we've achieved nothing that's what the identity politics people are saying they're saying we've achieved nothing you are guilty of implicit bias you are racist and if you say I'm not that proves that you're racist how stupid is that who's going to take that and we're too frightened to say anything that bothers me yeah John asked a question you touched on it briefly I am but I want you to dig into a deeper he asked what has been the role of academia and the promotion of identity politics and when you're talking about the Academy could you also talk about recent decisions that have been made by the UC system by Harvard and other prominent universities to no longer require merit tests like the SAT or the a CT as a condition of admission based on the argument that they were biased test for they were tested gave unfair advantage or discriminated against the racial minorities well the short answer is yes identity politics was born and raised and nurtured and cultivated on our campuses and we've been paying tons of money sending our children to these Ivy League institutions for them to be brainwashed into thinking that identity politics is the way the world works and that white children are told they're racist and black children are told they're victims of racism of why this is divisive when it comes to meritocracy we all understand those of us who've had the fortune to pull ourselves out of conditions of adversity the meritocracy is the answer and so the United States of America as a society for a very long time was in fact very very serious about merit and meritocracy I talk about tribalism because when I lived in Africa it really didn't matter what you could or couldn't do most tribes were prepared to promote and push forward members of their tribe and if you wanted to get anywhere you appealed to the leadership of your tribe to say can you get me this job can you get me that business you get me this loan we call it corruption it's well documented in America we have corruption we have racism we have all of these other problems but in comparison to the rest of the world they are small and we have a population that is actually if you talk to most people they actually interested in trying to find a solution solutions for the problems we have we have think tanks we have organizations like the Hoover Institution where people come together and say okay here's a problem we have how do we solve it people starts to give you their perspectives that is unique and it's something to be proud of and it's very American and it's not in the least racist it's the opposite yeah I on Ellen Fox asks the following question she says I agree with what you're saying what's the best way for us as Americans as average Americans to promote and support social mobility for those facing barriers for example barriers and obtaining school proper schooling other opportunities that might help them advance woodard what are some good policy solutions that you and us as average Americans should think about and encourage our lawmakers to adopt you know politics is local communities are local human beings are like if in your family in your neighborhood in your church your work you see someone who's struggling who's vulnerable who wants help please by all means go ahead and do that mentor try and pay there's someone here on this audience I'm not going to name who has decided to get to dedicate money to paying the school fees of African Americans right you can do that and it's anonymous she doesn't need to on boasting I'm doing this she does it she is not the only one there are many people who are doing that that's what you can do on the individual level mm-hmm there are people here in the audience I know who are mentoring not only African American children but anybody who is disadvantaged in their neighborhood why does why do you need to have a skin color to you know to be admitted into help it's happening there are lots and lots of Americans who are helping one another there's a great deal of philanthropy and goodwill that is happening in America and then there are policy issues that is legislation and the allocation of resources that stucks payer money into big problems that we as individuals can't solve and yes we have our debates we have our discussions about how to allocate what kind of legislation we need to put in place what interest groups are going to be served and what are not going to be self conversations we need to have conversations we have but we've got to take this whole race thing out of it dori dori ask a related question she says and I know that you've had you've been vilified and buy some for talking about these difficult issues Dorie has fallen question what are your suggestions on how we begin conversations reflective of your ideas on the humanity of us all versus the tenants of identity politics that will be accepted reasonably without being branded racist etc you have to understand that vilification is the currency you and I might want to have a discussion we might want to argue we might want to push it evidence in evidence-based solutions but the people who are pushing identity politics are not interested in that vilification is their currency so if we adopt the position what can I do so that I am not labeled a racist what can I do so I am not labeled a house negro or an Uncle Tom what can I do so that I appear virtuous to the rest of the way that's not going to work for them because what they want you to do is they to to subscribe to convert to their ideology and if you in any way shape you know you look at the world and you say I see something different they're going to vilify you we've talked about Roland fryer african-american professor himself a victim of police brutality he looks into it he writes a paper that is peer-reviewed and what do they do they don't look at the research they vilify him and it doesn't matter if you're black or white if you deviate from the orthodoxy they're going to vilify you so perhaps now is the time to say we're just simply going to ignore them and it's the first way to push back is to show them that that vilification the accusation that you're racist doesn't make a point what has been used way too many times that it has no meaning at all whatsoever yeah our lady good conversation starts with your racist Walter Walter asked the following question what role do you see the news media play in propagating identity politics in America well the if you look at what's happening in what's been happening in the last few weeks you see these internal disputes going on and within the newsrooms within our Free Press and it's really absolutely tragic to see how editors in chief who even have pushed back in the slightest not with their own opinions but for instance by publishing the opinions of others have been ousted they've been removed it is really tragic to see that the Free Press of the United States of America is struggling really struggling to contain this movement identity politics woke woke is the new word for them pushing out experienced I would say the one it was some of the most and the best critical thinkers in our press are being pushed out and we are sitting back and we are scared to say we can't say anything now social media has not helped in this in some ways with social media yes you can reach the general public but it's now become it's just it's become something so divisive and and and toxic and we're all out the point of saying we don't know maybe you know if you review and reflect on what has social media done for us in the end we might end up saying maybe that wasn't so good after all yeah I on here's here's a hard question that that's asked by both Laurie Bowles Berg and Arthur and it fundamentally has to do with the president Trump new president Trump is contributing towards a productive conversation to try to address racial inequalities in the country you know I try to stay away from that and why do I do that we had an election in 2016 we had an outcome Tom as you know there are many scholars at the Hoover Institution we're all trying to reflect on what happened in 2016 and how deep-seated is that I find that conversation way more interesting what the president Donald Trump has come to symbolize and for so many people he's got I mean listen how many critical pieces and how much criticism has been expressed about Donald Trump I've never seen anything like that in my life do I have to add to that yeah mr. president please don't tweet president please do you think he will listen no but what is what I find is much deeper and more lasting is that we have used mr. Trump's presidency as an excuse to do away with our own decency you do away with some of our founding principles and I think that's way more dangerous then something that you know we're gonna have another election for heaven's sake calm down yeah what let's talk about organizations that are trying to address racial justice in the country what organizations are doing the good work from your point of view there are so many organizations in our country that are doing good work when it comes to the specifically african-american I would like to highlight Bob Woodson he's seventeen seventy six projects african-american 80 something years old he has experience like Shelby Steele and Thomas oh he was in a band lived in America when there was real racism real segregation this was set in the law and these people have come out of it and have then set up as Bob Watson has done organizations to educate to lift up young african-american children but also to reach out to white people in general and say this is this is what connects us this is what makes us human this is what makes America unique and to stand up to stand up to the identity politics people the work people yeah and we have a couple personal questions here you can answer them or not Eduardo asked how do you find the bravery to express publicly unpopular opinions concerning social issues and Jerry asks will you be writing a new book articulating your amazing views on identity politics I don't know if I should try it a new book on identity politics because these have been written right that a critical of identity politics Jonathan Haidt has done a very good job of that many many many sensible rational America I want to highlight people like Coleman Hughes who's african-american Heather McDonald who has really worked of years and years at the Manhattan Institute on police the relationship between african-americans and the police it's it's it's all out there for you to see I don't know if I have anything new to add to the idea of identity politics except highlight from my experience in tribal nations that I recognize it in two ways identity politics is simultaneously tribal and socialist and should I does it need an entire book I don't know I don't think so I think it's quite obvious I think it's feeling now time we just happen let's go back to common sense yeah what about orders question on how do you muster the bravery to express expressed unpopular opinions I know you're quite passionate about this where do you where does the passion come from I mean bravery I don't know if it's brave to just state the obvious honestly you know what so what I'm being asked as a black female living in the United States of America in 2020 is to denounce all my white friends as racist and to denounce the entire system that has sustained all these people and has moved on I mean look at if you look at our common humanity you'll see how far we have to come put it put that in a time line and see how we've come and I'm comparing it I'm comparing the United States right now to China to India to Russia different countries in Europe to Africa I look at what this country has achieved in the short time that it has been a nation set it's so obvious it's staring me in the face you don't need courage you don't need to be brave look up and say oh well the sky is blue America is a great nation and I love it we have our problems and we have loads of but I think the way to go about solving them is the old American way evidence-based emphasis on freedom and the appeal of equality is huge but it is something that we walk towards I will end with following question by John which has to do with what is your view of the future of American society given the seemingly increasing the business in the streets will it get worse before it gets better are you a optimist optimistic or pessimistic about the future I'm optimistic if we wake up and again I really have to emphasize we do have yes we talked a lot these past few weeks about reforming our police but I think we have to reform our institutions of Education especially our institutions of higher education the universities I think we need to come together and say how on earth did we allow for 35 years maybe longer to have these people come in and take the most brilliant the brightest but also impressionable young minds and manipulate and pollute their minds to come to believe that we are irredeemably racist how did that happen how did we how are we having young people graduate from Ivy League universities in the United States of America and are promoting socialism what have we been doing where have we been so as parents as donors as the general public we have to start looking very quickly into these institutions of higher education and most urgent thing is to reform them I have been getting emails that doctors shoes dr. Seuss is it racist seriously that's how far we've come so you can't read dr. Seuss anymore Shakespeare anymore can't read home anymore well I'm sure there'll be plenty to read and I'm sure you're gonna produce it so I really appreciate on you being here today thank you for the time this morning and thanks for the important discussion thank you so much time thank you our next tuber virtual policy briefing will be Tuesday June 23rd at 11:00 a.m. Pacific and 2 p.m. Eastern Time political scientists and education scholar Terry Moe who will be talking about the future of education reform and his politics Terry is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor of political science at Stanford University you can join Tuesday's briefing at the same length that you signed in on and you will find the Hoover Institution online at Hoover org and on Twitter Facebook and Instagram I want to thank you all for joining us today and encourage you all to have a wonderful weekend goodbye [Music]

Channel: Hoover Institution

Views: 73,148

Keywords: Race, race relations, riots, equality, education, identity politics

Id: jqlAIruP-EA

Length: 38min 18sec (2298 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 19 2020