Hi, everybody. Welcome to the London School of Economics Virtual event. I am Grace Gordon. I am the founding director of the Inclusion Initiative who are the host of the event this evening. I'm also an associate professor of behavioral science. I'm here at the LSC and I'm also the author of Take Back the book that you can see on the poster which is the only bit of self promotion that I'm going to do tonight because I have a guest that I've not only have been a fan of for a very very long time. I've now renewed my fandom by reading her book. Um The Authority Gap. Um so it's a I want to introduce Mary Ann Sieghart, Uh Mary Ann, most of us will know that she makes programs for BBC for she has spent time being an assistant editor at the Times. She's the trustee of the Scott's Trust and what you may not know is that she is currently a visiting fellow at King's College London and that in 2018, 2019, she was a visiting fellow of all sorts of college Oxford where she researched the book we're going to speak about tonight. The authority Gap which is all about why women are taking less seriously than men and I think this really is academic non fiction in the best possible way. It is heavily researched. It is heavily cited. It also relies on a wealth of data secondary data scrutinizing of studies but also data that she collected herself including interviews with women such as the Baroness, Hale Mary Beard, and it even features a quote from our very own day. Um this evening. Um Mary Ann is going to tell us all about it so I won't So I won't spoil the. story story. And I'm going to And I'm going to start with. th asking marianne or should I th asking marianne or should I say ma th asking marianne or should I say ma, and ask you to start with the reason why you contemplate. te to be named as me te to be named as ma on the
cover te to be named as ma on the cover of this book rather than marissa. Well thanks very much guys. Well thanks very much grace. Well thanks very much grace. The reason I did it The reason I did is that my. ifests have four times more likely have four times more likely have four times more likely to read a book by man, and bye read a book by man, and by a woman, whereas women read roughly roughly woman, whereas women read roughly 5050. bucks books by man, and by women by man, and by women. And so, in this so, in the sort of JK Rowling. ng or George Eliot today or George Eliot tradition. I thought I thought if I disguise my gender on the cover and might actually persuade more mentors. ead this ead this book, and I ead this book, and I particularly want men to read this book of course I want women to read it, and in fact, I hope it will fact, I hope it will be very useful for them and giving them all sorts. of ammunition. But I do think the world will change unless men read it to me men are reluctant to read books by women and. this is this is actually part of the this is actually part of the the arguments in the book so it will be quite matter I thought to call myself, ma RC cars rather Marianne and. my friends my friends call me Ma anyway. Do you know anything yet you know anything yet about the gender. split split of the people who are reading the authority got it reading the authority gap. reading the authority gap. I don't. I've noticed in I don't. I've noticed in Live events I don't. I've noticed in Live I don't. I've noticed in Live events that I've been able to do so far. far, the audience, it's usually about far, the audience, it's usually about three quarters, women and a quarter men, and that a quarter men. And that's part of the problem, because men actually need to. join this conversation, it's very join this conversation. that both genders. that both genders. join join this Conversation. So we made a lot So we made a lot of Progress on gender equality and you know gender equality, and you know, you don't have to convince me that we need a. a five on gender convergence, we still have pick up, you know still have pick up, you know, still have pick up, you know, people are paid promotion. gaps and the progress gaps and the progress is Lucille can gaps and the progress is a seal. Can you comment on the evidence that underlines the clear need that underlines the clear need for the book for people who might say, actually, women are doing incredibly well. doing incredibly well. well Whether. Oh, thank goodness more Whether. Oh, thank goodness more Whether. Oh, thank goodness more ar need for the book for people who might say, actually, women are doing incredibly well. whether. Oh, thank goodness more women being promoted to visible. And often it's their jobs that have And often it's their jobs that have always been held by a man, last we have a woman in them, and that's fantastic. . But if you actually look at me . But if you actually look at most women's everyday experience so they're much they are. less so less likely to be hired in the less likely to be hired in the first place then then they are promoted more slower they are promoted more slowly than men. 70% of men than men. 70% of men will evaluate. a man a man more highly than away a man more highly than a woman for achieving Exactly the same goals for achieving Exactly the same goals. So we have nothing like. a true a true Meritocracy here a true Meritocracy here true Meritocracy here. And the reason I'm, I'm arguing And the reason I'm, I'm arguing in this book is, we still don't take. women women quite a seriously women quite as seriously as men. So we assume for instance So we assume for instance that A man knows what he's talking A man knows what he's talking about until he proves otherwise. as well well for a woman it for a woman. It's all too often the other way around. It does around. And as a result, women around. And as a result, women's x. perts pertise tends to be chat pertise tends to be challenged more their ability tends to be under more their ability tends to be underestimated there they're more likely to. have their views ignored. them all They're more likely to be interrupted to be spoken over me interrupted to be spoken over at meetings, and all these all at meetings, and all these all at meetings, and all these all these sort of behavior. r is a manifestation of is a manifestation of the authority gap. and I And I think the authority gap is and And I think the authority gap is the mother of all gender gaps, because if we don't take women as seriously as men. If we as seriously as men. If we of behavior is a manifestation of the authority gap. And I think the authority gap is the mother of all gender gaps, because if we don't take women as seriously as men. If we assume that they're incompetent until they prove otherwise. Then we're going to hire them less. readily promote them less readily promote them less often and pay them less than then. it's funny it's funny it's funny when you were when you were speaking I was imagining be you were speaking I was imagining being in the, in the shake your therapy. e NSA e NSA and I could imagine the women in the audience nodding along when you talked about. along when you talked about. being NSA and I could imagine the women in the audience nodding along when you talked about being not being taken seriously being not being taken seriously you know being talked. talked to over to over. One thing that I loved about your book so the work that I do really think gender equality really think gender equality has been good for business, but you go step further and. he book and he book and you talk about the benefits for men in terms of their benefits for men in terms of their personal lives and also in terms of society as a whole. Can you as a whole. Can you talk a bit talk a bit about the evidence base talk a bit about the evidence base. base. Yes, well so. this was actually one of the most Cheering things I discovered when I was researching this book. because I'd started because I'd started off thinking, well, maybe men have got to be quite altruistic. ic to allow women ic to allow women more parents ic to allow women more power in society, you know the as you. is very similar to raise finance very similar to race for instance you know I used to go on anti racism and anti apartheid much. as either even though I'm white. but at but actually no it's very much immense interest to. to do you would think that gender equality was like a seesaw in gender equality was like a seesaw in whichever one side rises the other side falls the other side falls but there's a lot. ot of evidence to show it's actually a positive some games actually a positive some game actually a positive some game not a zero sum game, so instance, in countries that are instance, in countries that are instance, in countries that are more gender equal And to you. tates that are more gender equal tates that are more gender equal , and also in relationships that and also in relationships that are are more gender equal whether more gender equal whether the. hey're in a straight relationship at least rather than the man and the woman share the unpaid work more
equal. ually share the childcare maria re equally share the childcare more equally. Not only are the women only are the women happier and only are the women happier and healthier. which which you might well expect which you might well expect and the children are happier and healthier, and they do better at school. they have they have fewer behavioral difficulties, less like difficulties. That's like the boys Are less likely to be violence as teenagers. , but the men are , but the men are also happier yet , but the men are also happier and healthier. So they are twice that they're satisfied with that they're satisfied with their life, there's this. s all academic research. Bye s all academic research by the way it's not as anecdotal twice way it's not as anecdotal twice as likely to say they're satisfied with their life a half to be depressed me to be depressed much likely to get a much less likely to get divorced. They drink divorced. They drink less on average. , they , they smoke class, they take , they smoke class, they take drugs, they sleep better at night. t, and this is the clincher I think t, and this is the clincher I think, and this is academic research which. which under underpins this, they get more free this, they get more frequent and better sex. What's not to like guys join the not to like guys join the club you. u will be much happier as a result will be much happier as a
result. result bad, you should have wrote Marianne that. would have would that would have got the should have wrote Marianne that would that would have got the mentor by book. And then of course you know, if we are not using women's T we are not using women's Talents as much as we should Talents as much as we should. Then, you know. business businesses again to make businesses again to make less money if they haven't got you money if they haven't got, you know so many talented women at the top, and we all know that more diverse workforces and. forces and and groups make better decision and groups make better
decisions. female asset manager. agers on average tend to make more money the mail ones more money the mail ones venture capitalists mix or entrepreneurs make more money, you know, so the. economy economy is really losing out economy is really losing out as a result, even the planet is losing a result, even the planet is losing out because in Parliament's that have more women they tend to pass women they tend to pass more climate change. ange friendly ange friendly policies. So there friendly policies. So there are all sorts of reasons why. jet more jet more more gender equal. relationships business relationships, businesses, organizations, and the organizations, and even parliament's. produced better results. So when we look at that, I mean. the data that the data is very very convinced that the data is very very convincing. So why do you think the individual me the individual men can the individual men. Because of the ways that they've been of the ways that they've been brought up and because. of the of the world in which they've been of the world in which they've been brought up. So I think one of the saddest pieces of research of the saddest pieces of research I came across. show that if you are showed that if you ask parents showed that if you ask parents to estimate their children's it. iQ. their sons on average. their sons, on average, at 115. their sons, on average, at 115. which which itself is pretty funny which itself is pretty funny because the average of 100 100 right for Nike. So there's some right for Nike. So that sounds like 115. like 115. and then and then and their daughters are only and their daughters are only 107 now and their daughters are only 107 now statistically that is an enormous difference. of eight of eight points of IQ. And this is true, even though this is true, even though girls tend to. to develop faster than bye to develop faster than boys and they have a big of vocabulary than boys and early age, and than boys and early age, and than boys and early age, and they outperform boys. at me at every single academic level every single academic level
from. m the history, all the way up m the history, all the way up to PhD, and yet their parents PhD, and yet their parents think PhD, and yet their parents think that the sums up. clever even though girls tend to develop faster than boys and they have a bigger vocabulary than boys and earlier age, and they outperform boys at every they outperform boys at every single academic level from nursery all the way up to PhD, and yet their parents think that the sums are clever than the the sums are clever than the daughters and therefore boys are much more likely to grow up thinking that they are clever and girls. and it's and it's no surprise behalf and it's no surprise perhaps that adult men on average say that adult men on average say their IQ is 110, and their IQ is 110, and adult women so. its own it's only 105, but only 105, but we all know that, you know. apartment apart from at the very very end of the IQ distribution men's end of the IQ distribution men's and women's IQ. are identical. And then of course they look at the world outside in. which which men are still main which men are still, mainly in charge. You know 94 hours of charge. You know 94 hours of hundred top companies. in this this country around. society, minimum society, men are more likely to have authority than women. I think one of the great points I think one of the great points that you make and be a party gap is the perceptions that we have gap is the perceptions that we have women, I just held by Ben. their hair they're held by women about they're held by women about other women as well so these are kind of societal norms. and if And if you're a woman, and you're standing in front of a woman you're also likely to be woman you're also likely to be taken seriously. Yeah Yeah, I'm sorry says Yeah, I'm sorry says the case. that we all have that we all harbor unconscious bias that we all harbor unconscious bias, however. live liberal or intelligence liberal or intelligent, or indeed female. We are. unconscious bias against. women women, even if we're woman inst women, even if we're women. And that's because as I say we will And that's because as I say we've all grown up in this world in which. h there are many more men than h there are many more men than women and authority, and therefore we're much more ready. dy to associate male with a thorough to associate mail with authority, we probably on average probably on average growing up in families in which our husbands in families in which are has sorry our father. works more than our mother ks more than our mother probably earned more than our mother possibly had. more authority in the house more authority in the house than our mother. And so it takes a long And so it takes a long time to And so it takes a long time to I mean you can't actually get rid of the unconscious bias is called of the unconscious bias is called unconscious for a reason . But we can at least noticed when it manifests itself and. very much. Don't very much. Don't assume when you're walking up to a man and woman standing together. that he that he's going to be more interesting than she is you know we have to correct for this unconscious sneaky. y bias that creeps into y bias that creeps into to our brain bias that creeps into to our brains. Mariana twice I've been invested Mariana twice I've been in restaurants recently where the meal. that that was healthier and feel that was healthier and vegan was passed to be instead of was passed to be instead of the man that I was with automatically and both cases, it was actually wrong automatically assuming that I will be the one who's who's eating healthier healthier mean so healthier healthier mean. So, even though. ough I've often noticed I've often order steak and
chips. and light and the guy and light and the guy I've been with us ordered fish and they always get it wrong. wrong It's so weird to see you kind of my Sundays very very small thing my Sundays very very small things, and then you want to what it actually does for the big outcomes that we care about. Yeah, absolutely. What what. heard about was of bed and Joe heard about was of bed and Joan , the two professors in Stanford who the two professors in Stanford who transition gender and. efeat ifferent directions, I can get I think it actually gave a really important message for really important message for people who might interpret it either would you be able to. become too to for us. I think this is some of the
best. proof proof proof of the existence of the proof of the existence of the authority gap. Because, Jen authority gap because generally if you're a woman and say you're if you're a woman and say your male colleagues gets promoted male colleagues gets promoted and you don't. And you think sexism is And you think sexism is it play t proof of the existence of the authority gap because generally if you're a woman and say your male colleague gets promoted and you don't. And you think sexism is it play but it's terribly is it play but it's terribly But if you can correct. ct for every other variable and ct for every other variable and isolate the one that matters, which is. gender gender, then you can be absent gender, then you can be absolutely sure that it was gender that played a part, and there had the way you do this. is is to look at people who fly is is to look at people who've lived both as a man and as a woman, and see and as a woman, and see whether they've been treated differently because after all, they're exactly the same. person with person with the same Intel person with the same Intelligence ability experience personality body of work experience personality body of work. And if after they transition they treated very differently, I think that's very good evidence. So the So the story I want to tell So the story I want to tell is about these to Stanford professor is about these to Stanford professors Ben barriers and June rough garden, who each transitioned in opposite directions. by coincidence at the same time. You said, People who don't know I'm transgendered treat I'm transgendered treat me with so much more respect. t, and I can even finish the sentence without being interrupted by man. Someone was overheads, you did didn't know his history, saying at the back of one of his wonderful. seminars. Oh seminars. Oh, Ben bars gave such a great seminar today, but a great seminar today, but then his work so much better than his sisters. I themselves. I themselves. Jane rough garden meanwhile and rough garden meanwhile and evolutionary biology. gists transitions to transitions to live as a woman. and before. transition transitioning Jones, Jane transitioning Jane had been on the University Senate committee. the University Senate committee. everything Everything she said was just she said was just taken. as read. . She said her voice was just saying . She said her voice was just so much more powerful than until work much more powerful than until work was taken Seriously. After she transitioned, she she transitioned, she find it much harder to. apply apply for it for apply for it for grants or at least to get grants that she applied for. pplied pplied for. She lost her seat on the university Senate committee and university Senate committee, until work and she personally. we're we're tapped in ways that didn't we're tapped in ways that it never happened to her when she was living as a man was living as a man. So people would say to her. . You obviously haven't read the literature, we don't understand literature, we don't understand the statistics. She said that She said that never happened to me She said that never happened to me before. And she said, People into me before. And she said, People interrupted her patronized. talk to talked over hurt meeting talked over hurt meetings and she's talked over hurt meetings and she said to start with I thought well if I'm going to
be I thought well if I'm going to be a woman I'm done well going be a woman I'm done well going to be discriminated against in the same way as other women or. And she said well the novelty of that is worn off, I can tell you, and her conclusion was men are assumed to be competent until proven otherwise, and women are assumed to be incompetent, until proven otherwise. , and actually much bigger study , and actually much bigger studies by sociologists of transplant and trans women of transplant and trans women have found very similar results. particularly particularly trans men say trans men say they are respected so much. more after the transition life more after the transition life becomes so much easier for them at work. they get from they get promoted more quickly they get away with more. it's just much easier being a man and a woman easier being a man and a woman, basically. it's true that sneaky. very old fashioned just will start very old fashioned digital stereotypes that we all seem to nurture and the darkest
recesses. above of our brains that of our brains that tell us that we're we're our brains that tell us that women have to be. warm and gentle and warm and gentle and calm you and likable and and likable, and I'm
threatening. solved d self promoting on campus d self promoting uncompetitive and self promoting uncompetitive,
and I'm assuming now I'm assuming. Now, these character traits. don't don't get you anywhere work don't get you anywhere work. Okay, so if you want to succeed at work and if you want to be taken seriously. You have to. to be confident and to be confident and assertive and you to be confident and assertive and you have to show leadership and you have to show leadership traits. And these are traditionally And these are traditionally male care And these are traditionally male characteristics male stereotypes, so characteristics male stereotypes. So a man can have. e these characteristics e these characteristics as at psychologists call a genetic traits psychologists call a genetic traits and be authentic to themselves. , and advanced at work for us and advanced at work very easily, but. when it But when a woman shows these agenda agenda But when a woman shows these But when a woman shows these genetic traits, alongside the feminine ones or maybe instead of the. feminine ones. People recoil if it. ind it very ind it very difficult women as well as men. They feel I'm well as men. They feel uncomfortable or something sort of greeting and in Congress. s as social psychologists call
it s as social psychologists call it about a woman shane traditionally masculine traits. And so they start to use it And so they start to use adjectives about such as a adjectives about such as abrasive or. strike straightened tour group straightened out or aggressive or overbearing or. Bye or overbearing or bossy I could go on bit she bought. reaking even. And these are adjectives that have never used of men and have never used of men, and they do it because. there's just something wrong. they feel about women they feel about a woman behaving in a traditionally male way. Now, you might say, well Now, you might say, well, what's the problem we should just grow thick skin. an of it an of it if people don't like us particularly man. So what the trouble So what the trouble is that for So what the trouble is that for women likability at work women likability at work is much more important than this is for men. particularly well particularly when it comes to make particularly when it comes to mail Hires or promoters. there they're much more likely to hire they're much more likely to hire or promote a woman they find likable. with me men on the whole it's down to competence and achievements to competence and achievements and potential. for women likability as for women likability as much more important. So it's incredibly high. d for women to get this right d for women to get this right, because if they're not confident and assertive enough, there'll be disrespected, but there'll be disrespected, but there'll be disrespected, but if they are confident. fident and assertive enough that quite likely to be disliked. d, and therefore also not d, and therefore also not hard, or promoted. So this is the double or promoted. So this is the double bind that women find double bind that women find themselves in. themselves in. When I read past it When I read that I did It felt like to me It felt it felt. intuitive intuitive, but i just saw intuitive, but i just saw intuitive, but it just sounded exhausting in order to walk that tightrope. to be to be very honest so let them to be very honest so let's imagine that you're not imagine that you're not naturally warm and kind and I kind, you might get some
reaction you might get some reactions and somebody telling you. that you can that you believe and I wondered how much productivity. are we losing are we losing by not allowed vity are we losing by not allowing them and be their authentic selves and work by forcing them into a stereotype that that really clearly as applications. ns. I think an enormous amount ns. I think an enormous amount so what happens is that the so what happens is that the ones who aren't prepared to push on this Carrier piece of warrants, in order to be. be in order to be accepted me in order to be accepted mainly by man. don't get 't get promoted 't get promoted and so we're 't get promoted and so we're losing out on those talents. and those who do manage to six and those who do manage to succeed you know to wear this carrier pay successfully aren't carrier pay successfully aren't being their authentic selves. s and therefore having to s and therefore having to put a huge amount of emotional labor rate huge amount of emotional labor really into. o acting in acting in. start to do this. sort of in of instinctively that. that the successful ones. And so that the successful ones. And so women for instance will read a room. very very carefully to see very carefully to see ya very carefully to see whether they are thought to be. e talking too much now talking too much. Now, you often hear women say. y God did I talk too much, then y God did I talk too much, don't often hear women say that. And the reason. on is that women who are deemed is that women who are deemed to talk too much. whereas men who talked too much men who talked too much are seen as. more competent and more soon more competent and more suited to leadership, but we're often criticized for not. contributing ntributing enough at meetings ntributing enough at meetings and it's true that on average, women do talk less in public women do talk less in public settings the men do. But that's because they can see the backlash happening. If they took the backlash happening. If they talk more. . And actually, we will . And actually, we will perceive a woman to have done a woman to have dominated conversation. If she If she only talks for an equal If she only talks for an equal amounts of time. to the e to the men in the room e to the men in the room e to the men in the room, and therefore talking too much therefore talking too much, means talking as much as him talking as much as him he'll colleagues. colleagues. So again we're walking this So again we're walking this really difficult tightrope between talking enough to be taken seriously and not talking so taken seriously and not talking taken seriously and not talking so much that people will disapprove. And that meta analysis is really fast that meta analysis is really fascinating that even though. gh we believe that we believe that women and girls. talk more than men. x talk more than men. Actually, when you look at the meetings, and you order the meetings, men and you order the meetings, men I think it's two and a half times in a meta analysis speaking to than women so that even though. t false perception in itself t false perception in itself has to go in the direction but what you're saying. Absolutely, I mean if you were up women and men. n for a whole day, and for a whole day, and count the number of words. if you're that we've used, it's almost exact that we've used, it's almost exactly the same, but in public settings as you say, mentor me settings as you say, mental, much more than women. And they tend to do what I call conversational, not all men by the conversational, not all men, by the way, some then. the way, some then. tend to do what I call conversational man spreading they just take up a disproportionate they just take up a disproportionate amount of space you probably had this sort of conversation with them. man, where he just bangs on. and on about and on about on about himself and his. views views and you simply can't views and you simply can't get a word in edgeways. I tell us word in edgeways. I tell the story in the in the book about female vice chancellor of the university so very, very very university so very, very very senior woman. goes for dinner, as an officer goes for dinner, as an officer college, and it's sad. And at the end of the second course And at the end of the second course he says well that's enough about me and. turns Santos turns Santos side the other side the other side other side. urself urself as to who she is and what she thinks as to who she is and what she as to who she is and what she thinks her whether she has anything interesting. but actually research shows that actually research shows that in meetings. , women Women have to make up either Women have to make up either women have to make up 80% or more of a meeting for them more of a meeting for them to talk. a proportion a proportionate amount of time
or proportionate amount of time or. if you if you if you change the rule of if you change the rule of the, of the decision making, so of the decision making. So that decisions are made by unit So that decisions are made by unanimity like injury service right unanimity like injury service rather than by majority. decision decision making, then all decision making. Then also, women will talk for a Porsche, amount of time. I guess because they then say, well my view has to be heard. because because I have to agree with
that because I have to agree with a consensus in order for a consensus in order for a decision to be taken. to speak more. and it And I spent a lot of time trying to And I spent a lot of time trying to corral group think and meetings and corporate companies. And one of the, if I spent a lot of time trying to create good thinking meetings and corporate companies. And one of the, if you if you ordered a missing one of the big conclusions often is that the decision maker or the person who has power or. the app the alpha male for want of a better word. So I'm wondering if we actually run So I'm wondering if we actually ran me things by the way that women would naturally run them with women would naturally run them with the amount of words that they actually using meetings, whether we'd actually be better off. When I think, yeah, I mean When I think, yeah, I mean I think it research to suggest that women, listen more. re to each other that re to each other, that, that they're on receive as well as they're on receive as well as transmits more on average the manner, and then we'll collaborative and their decision collaborative and their decision making. g, and they speak and they speak more succinctly, so. So I think there's one piece of research it says that the IQ research it says that the IQ of group rises, the more group rises, the more women are. in it in it, not necessarily because
of in it, not necessarily because the women are more intelligent, but because they collaborate. more Listen to each other more more Listen to each other more, and therefore end up doing better decision making. So what I was thinking about that one of the things that got me thinking about was culture. and companies, so. when you when you talked about Ben jones when you talked about Ben and Joe on when you talked about Ben and Joe. Thursday evening here for the NFC. FC i interviewed him until FC i interviewed and Antonio Belcher who transitioned, and Belcher who transitioned in her 40s Belcher who transitioned in her 40s, and was in construction. n, and never suffered any page and never suffered any bigger. and did and did suffer, not know and did suffer, not a rticularly nice environment and she and she ended up leaving. And I think about the pay gap And I think about the pay gap and can And I think about the pay gap and construction between men and women and it's really really low because there's So few women in it. I think a lot of what you talked about really. manage manifest software manifests itself where you get kind of tipping women so it's Tara kind of tipping women so it's 30% plus. we see these kind of differences see these kind of differences where men are talking over where men are talking over where men are talking over ver women. And I wonder if there's some sort of reactions to women entering the end to women entering the industry or do you think. perhaps perhaps that it's almost a perhaps that it's almost a power struggle with who actually gets to define the culture. it, I mean this is a hard one to me I mean this is a hard one to I mean this is a hard one to measure some certain you're just asking me for my hunch rather than any any evidence. I may, I may I mean, I'm interested because I think a lot of times when we have more women in organizations, it does change culture. we can. wondering if some of what you're done wondering if some of what you're the findings in the book, really are. that politics that place so we work that politics that place so we were seeing culture change and favor maybe have a more collaborative environment for example. , and there are people who are pushing back against that. that. Yeah, it is. interesting interesting for instance there is evidence to suggest that. t Junior men are more like t Junior men are more likely to interrupt senior women. n. And I suspect that is n. And I suspect that is because they, there is something that makes them feel uncomfortable about having a woman in
authority over them, and therefore they said back. So for instance back. So for instance there's an extraordinary study of an extraordinary study of us Supreme Court proceedings Supreme Court proceedings, and you don't get much more. thorough authoritative than than the than than the US Supreme Court. But women make up a third But women make up a third of the justices there, but justices there, but suffer two thirds. thirds. ds of all interruptions, so ds of all interruptions. So in other words, there are four times more likely to be interrupted than their male interrupted than their male colleagues, 96% of the. time by mail, add time by mail advocates, or justices time by mail advocates, or justices now the advocates are actually pleading and from actually pleading in front of them and. nd so therefore, in nd so therefore, in something, you know, are beholden to them and you would think there will be sensible enough not to interrupt. the way the women who is actually going to be taking the decision but to be taking the decision but they just can't resist. resist somehow. One thing that I really liked about the authority gap is about the authority gap is that It speaks about compound interest, so I recently. wrote wrote about the IDea of the
media wrote about the IDea of the mediocre manager, who was identify mediocre manager, who was identified by an extraordinary. amount of amount of women in financial professional services, who professional services, who tends to give opportunities to tends to give opportunities to people like them to kind of replicate themselves. s. And it really reminded me And it really reminded me of actually. compound interest and I think you're compound interest and I think your your your theory of components goes even further to explain. pay a promo paid promotion gaps, can you promotion gaps. Can you elaborate on that. Yeah you elaborate on that. Yeah, so, so what. I say is it I say is that each instance of I say is that each instance of the authority got coming into play, often feels quite my quite minor marginal quite minor marginal so you know you make points to meeting then a man makes it 10 minutes later. and it's it's treated like the Second Coming. You know we're all used to this as women we're all used to this as women, each instance. field feel small, but feel small, but feel small, but I think they roll up feel small, but I think they roll up over the course of a roll up over the course of a lifetime like com. ound in ound interest to ound interest to ound interest to create this
huge ound interest to create this s huge gap and opportunity and achievement between women achievement between women and men. each time this is happening, a each time this is happening, a it's denting your confidence as a woman, but be a woman, but be, it means that other. people people around you are taking us people around you are taking us seriously and the thinking that the man, you actually has achieve the same goals as you. ou is better than you and old is better than you. all these things just add up. so yeah so yeah So yeah, I think so yeah i think i think it's a very good explanation for the big. big. g gap in pay and senior g gap in pay and seniority between women and men. to be stretched. we should We should order that so might have should order that so might actually be difficult to. order order them, but all them, but all. I think there might actually shed some light much earlier on shed some light much earlier on in the pipeline. Then when we're actually looking Then when we're actually looking at the top of the organizations and saying. well are the women gone. absolute Absolutely. So yeah Absolutely. So yeah what options here so you're giving women towards the beginning and in the middle of their careers. you know you know there's lots of know there's lots of evidence to show that in to show that in companies for stance women are quite off stance women are quite often shunted off to HR or marketing. g, and then when it comes to big g, and then when it comes to bigger promotion say say well you've never run a profit
center. well will he never been given a chance will he never been given a chance to run a profit center. These are the sorts of things. that the managers that the managers ought to be looking at, and certainly chairs looking at, and certainly chairs of meetings I think should be far more sensitive to wear. er we're the women are being over the women are being overlooked or talked over into rock or talked over interrupted ignored or talked over interrupted ignored, you know. space you space you make a point to no one takes me notice, you know one takes me notice you know when a man makes the same. points point 10 minutes later the
chairs point 10 minutes later the chairs should say, Oh, I'm so glad you agree with Andre said earlier. er, or if you guys interrupt er, or if you guys interrupt er, or if you get interrupted ted the church should say, oh hang on a minute I really want to hear what grace was trying to say, you
know grace was trying to say, you know, we need allies we need people to be aware of this problem. And then And then with any luck. malefactor malefactors will start to
realize malefactors will start to realize that they can't get away realize that they can't get away with it quite seriously. there There is that fascinating evidence There is that fascinating evidence of this phenomenal and It talks about about women making a point and not being making a point and not being able to influence a meeting in the way that men can. And it was a study done research And it was a study done researchers put together a mix sex group of students to. support supposedly to discuss a child to discuss a child custody case. And they And they deliberately chose the sub And they deliberately chose this subject because it's actually quite females stereotyped it's not, you know. quantum quantum Mechanics or something. And they were
given or something. And they were given lots of information about the family concerned. , but a few individual members , but a few individual members were given a particular piece of information that the rest of the group didn't have. when that piece of information. n was introduced by a man up n was introduced by a man. It was six times more likely to. to be used in the group still to be used in the group's deliberations. And when it was introduced by women. And that just shows how much higher that just shows how much harder, that just shows how much harder, we're going to have to. struggle struggle to influence struggle to influence a decision the men. And so we have. beat ourselves up and think ourselves up and think ourselves up and think, Well, I made that point and they want to give you notice I maybe I wasn't articulate enough maybe I wasn't confident enough know you sent me to
female know you sent me to female. can use Can you say something about mistake mistakes, so you know there's open the six. on that on that men fail up on this on that men fail often this comes true as well in in the authority gap so we talked about opportunities and that about opportunities and that meant and. o get my money o get more money, more opportunities as compared to opportunities as compared to women. But then when both good But then when both get But then when both get opportunities But then when both get opportunities there seems to be evidence that if a woman. makes me makes mistakes if makes mistakes if hearts are rts are much more than as rts are much more than as compared to a month. Yes, I think women get Yes, I think women get one chance generally. , and , and That's that matter allowed to make that matter allowed to make mistakes, fail. fail, fail again. Attend to be given more chances and Attend to be given more chances and also women are more likely to be appointed. ed to really difficult ed to really difficult job so the so called glass cliff, you the so called glass cliff. You know when a company is really in trouble. That's when a woman. nds to get a nds to get appointed, and it may be that she accepts because she knows she's not gonna be off with a successful company. So her So her only hope is to take So her only hope is to take over the failing one and hope that she can turn it around and some of them do you manage to get it manage to get it yeah it's an manage to get it yeah it's an extra tax on women that's. that's it, I mean I have to say that's it. I mean I have to say. that's it. I mean I have to say. the glass gift was a real pain because it makes it very hard because it makes it very hard to find concrete evidence that we're to find concrete evidence that women running companies are more effective than men. and looks new looks neutral, but if you take into account the. e bad starting point and the bad starting point and the lead boots, it. boots, it. I'm convinced it's there. before Before we go to questions and please Before we go to questions and starting point and the lead booth it, I'm convinced it's booth it, I'm convinced it's there. Before we go to questions and please anyone who's in the audience if you have questions to put them in I'm going to be coming. a second. I want to ask you what type of
it I want to ask you what type of advice you would give to a woman who is Ambitious. who is Ambitious. who's who's talented and who's talented and perhaps experiencing exclusion in the organization. because because she is not more than because she is not more than enough maybe she's to straight shooting. a put a book a put a book, a copy of my book put a book, a copy of my book
and your desks. desks desks top drawer not draw perhaps. your desks desks, not draw I mean the awful thing is, I
will mean the awful thing is, I wish the world. weren't like weren't like this, but the world weren't like this, but the well being what it is, we do have to just label warms just label warms, you know. nto whatever nto whatever we do, if we were nto whatever we do, if we want t to be taken seriously and be confident be assertive. and being and be competent and and be competent, and I would be competent, and I would prefer a world in which we didn't have to do a world in which we didn't have to do this, but until people are more aware of their bases and are more aware of their bases and more aware aware. re of the role itself re of the role itself playing they're thinking of playing they're thinking, I'm playing they're thinking, I'm afraid that's just what we have to do however inauthentic it feels and. we pray probably I'm afraid that's just what we have to do however inauthentic it feels and we probably do have to smile more, we do have to crack nor jokes, we do have to be more emotionally Intelligent and aware of the reactions. of the of the men around us is
terrible, the men around us is terrible, but I mean, if I were to say. to her No no no just care to her No no no just carry on being your authentic self. She'll probably suffer. and I didn't She'll probably suffer, and I didn't want to be responsible. want to be responsible for being punished for this. broad enough are working on a project at the moment, and I did a similar project women in banking and finance and one thing to come true is that women actually. leave for leave for leave for this reason, so they for this reason, so they leave to go and. nd you know nd you know startup companies and to become entrepreneurs, so. entrepreneurs, so. so I it just makes me shudder so I it just makes me shudder about what it actually does to the town of the stream for people who can't. you know kind of late you know kind of label on the warmth and the way that you describe. your older women just older women just don't want the jobs in jobs in these companies you in these companies, you know,
why do we have this attrition we you u know we're trying to get them m into the pipeline and they all just m into the pipeline and they attrition we, you know, we're trying to get them into the pipeline and they will just leave Well, maybe look at the culture in your organization first. before blaming blaming the women. Yeah the women. Yeah, more opportunities women. Yeah, more opportunities and being. less critical of Mistakes I less critical of Mistakes I think less critical of Mistakes I think we've got those two things right, you would see. Women's Day Women's Day Women's Day, because there isn't a Women's Day, because there isn't a shortage of ambitious women, I think there's a shortage of where they can actually put
their put their ambitions. Let me move to some questions. ns so let's start with ns so let's start with Odessa ns so let's start with Odessa hamilton, Hamilton works with me in the inclusion initiative, and she's also a PhD. student over at UCL student over at UCL. I am so. hello hello Marianne first hello Marianne first before you n jumped into my question I'm jumped into my question I must say that. much of what you. reveal here today. women women will have inherently experienced, but perhaps couldn't experienced, but perhaps couldn't pinpoint or. article articulate and a senior in a seamless way that you have. here today today so I wanted to take the time to thank wanted to take the time to thank thank you and your insights and expertise. and you see and you. So, that being said would you So, that being said, Would you say it's hopeless for older populations. So we need to recognize we have them we need to recognize we have we need to recognize we have them, I have this bias. you know you know, I was sometimes. I don't know I'll hear, say, a young woman being interviewed on the radio maybe have voices on the radio maybe have voices on the radio maybe have voice is quite high and. she's she sounds a bit childish and the way she sounds a bit childish and the way that men can't because their voices break, and I'll instinctively. think think I wonder she now I wonder she knows what she's I wonder she knows what she's talking about now. say no, stop about. No say no, stop. to the content of what she's saying. and day and day and don't judge it by the
picture don't judge it by the pitch have don't judge it by the pitch have a voice, so. you know you can train yourself in that you can train yourself in that way to notice when you're having these. gap type behavior and you can gap type behavior and you can learn to stop it, just as you can learn to stop slumping at your desk, you know. w it just takes a bit of prep w it just takes a bit of practice. So we, so there is hope for. r, you know, people view r, you know, people of your age people of my age but only if people. if other people other people want to change and want to change. And I just really wish they weren't. an by the way tually had a chat tually had a chance to mention the tually had a chance to mention the instructional nature of the authority gap which. ch is you know so it is much ch is you know so it is much much wider unfortunately for women much wider unfortunately for women of color than white women women of color than white women and it's much wider forward. orward women than for Able bodied wins women than for Able bodied women and it's much wider for working class women than for middle class women. n. And so everything n. And so everything I've, I've talked about applies to all talked about applies to all women, but. with compound interest, actually with compound interest, actually, if with compound interest, actually, if, if women aren't white or if they don't middle class or if they're not middle class or if they're not able bodied. And so And so this is something we've really got to tackle as well. Thank you so much. for your family courts for talking to you tomorrow, I think talking to you tomorrow I think season. ou soon soon. Yep. Hello. I just wanted to echo desk. ce comics ce comments earlier as well well I was reading the book that we're I was reading the book there were certainly many moments right. how to put down how to put down the book, think for a second because I was for a second because I was just. for a second because I was just. just hit my memories just hit my memories of how it. i internalized quite a lot internalized quite a lot of standards you touched upon. n. And so that was really And so that was really big shot. , and having us , and having those memories pop up like this fantastic so proud up like this fantastic so perhaps one of the recommendations for older generation. tions to start importing stuff tions to start embarked on this journey to buy your back. But my question is But my question is related to your But my question is related to your recommendations on closing the authority. y gas. So in the last chat y gas. So in the last chapter you touch upon traditional media outlets due to their ability media outlets due to their ability on influencing our. perception perceptions So I'm curious to hear if you have any recommendations for social have any recommendations for social media platforms. you know you know since Twitter is too you know since Twitter, you know since Twitter, Instagram, tick tock salon, they really for the really impact our perceptions advice. Well I wrote a very distressed Well I wrote a very distressing chat about the backlash that will chat about the backlash that women suffer as. a result a result of gaining more a result of gaining more authority and women at 27. times times more likely to be obese times more likely to be abused women at 27 times more likely to be abused online than men, and 20. men. 20. Does that figure 27th 20. Does that figure 27 times. I think I think social media platforms could do a lot more on that. You know that they're trying to tackle racism, but I don't think they do you knew enough oxygen think they do you knew enough oxygen. And, and I know there are other problems, you know, it can be. problems, you know, it can be. there there all the problems with this but I think that if social media us but I think that if social media users had to prove their identity and couldn't be anonymous, I think life. online online women will be a lot easier for women, will be a lot easier for women, harder to make rate threats. s. If your account as easily traced traced If your account as easily traced back to you. But I think also another thing I would like is for it would like is, for instance for the algorithms on. n say Twitter, or n say Twitter or Instagram but probably more so on Twitter, too probably more so on Twitter to suggest. t women than men women than men could follow, so. So women, follow roughly women, follow roughly equal numbers of. men and women on Twitter. and follow and follow much more men than women follow much more men than women on Twitter. So the so they're not even allowing us into their newsfeed and into their newsfeed, and how can they decide whether what we think or say is interesting or think or say is interesting or authoritative. tative they're not even seeing it in they're not even seeing it in the first place. And then And that also much more likely And that also much more likely to comment on or. retweet. tweets tweets by men, and bye tweets by men, and by women. And given that, you know, comments and retweets or the currency of Twitter. That means that we are just pull means that we are just poor as a result. result. , so I , so I think social media companies could actually address their algorithms to. know the syntax the syntactic thank you. Thanks the syntactic thank you. Thanks Bonnie, and if you're in the audience. Do tweets and retweets, Mary Do tweets and retweets, Mariana my tonight. following do tend to be. the same the same gender which is which is really which is really really depressing. So, this is. like, I was just gonna say so. ething ething that men can really easy that men can really easily remedy. Because they probably not doing it consciously but just have a look it consciously but just have a look at who you follow on twitter and try and redress the balance of its many more men than women. And I think the And I think the the approach. that account that it's unconscious is quite freeing isn't it because if you recognize it in yourself it's really easy to fix. What do And don't go now go after go after the talk. and we scious is quite freeing isn't it because if you recognize it in yourself it's really easy to fix. What don't and don't go now go off go after the talk, and we have a question from Joanna selman PhD. of law of law student law student, how much of this is an am how much of this is an anglo American issue I was gonna ask this question. Are there Are there comparable so some other advanced industrial societies other advanced industrial societies with different cultures example, Israel and the Nordic countries. Yes. So even in Israel. there was there was a study about. how teachers. expect of. people people's mathematical abilities mathematical abilities. follow Follow them all the way through that Follow them all the way through their careers and that the teachers themselves are biased, so. so teachers expect the girls so teachers expect the girls to be less good at math and the boys, and the US boys, and the, and this is very heavily correlated with how the girls do in their careers. Most not most Most not most, a lot of the studies probably about half the studies are American because. studies are American because. on hold on the whole American Academic seems on the whole American Academic seem to be more interested in these sorts of issues that these sorts of issues than these sorts of issues than other countries but I have, I do site studies from all over the world. But but I concentrated but I concentrated mainly on. develop developed countries because, you know countries because, you know, we all know that impact. istan say, you know, it's a istan say, you know, it's a vertically incredibly sexist or in Saudi Arabia. But in countries like the in countries like the UK and the US. a lot a lot of people a lot of man a lot of people a lot of men think we've solved the problem already. y. And what I'm trying to point out is we really haven't and. ually people, even in i've talked to ually people, even in i've talked to quite a lot of people in Denmark, which is one of the most gender equals of the most gender equals of the most gender equal societies and women, they're still really complain about instances of the authority. gap. And how can we affect change And how can we affect change collaboratively with men will collaboratively with men will collaboratively with men. More a Feeling like our sole responsibility. and that's and that's from Lorna. We need mentors on it We need men as allies, we really do. And as I said earlier, it's do. And as I said earlier, it's in my best interest to so it's not that. t big ask, but t big ask. But what we really need is t big ask. But what we really need is for men to speak out on our behalf at meetings if our behalf at meetings if we're being you know patronized
orange. rrupt rrupted or ignored or ignored. We need men as spot need men as sponsors and
mentors. rs in organizations rs in organizations that tribalism rs in organizations the trouble is that men suffer not just from gender bias. which we which we all do, but also from a which we all do, but also from affinity bias so that means that they're much more likely
to. that they're much more likely
to. help and encourage people help and encourage people like themselves so you know they expose their a senior know they expose their a senior manager and the spotter man 20 years younger. He reminds He reminds them of themselves when they were younger, that's us when they were younger, that's the sort of person they want to they're going to want to give a leg up to, so I'd. to. So I'd like to say to them, just switch for once, and switch for once, and choose a woman instead to sponsor woman instead to sponsor and mental. I think I think this is a really important point because a lot of the gaps that you find between men and women. en in the, in the, in the in the, in the, in the book can be. explained explained by describing explained by discrimination in one direction that's unconscious but equally by favoritism. So it could just be that men are neutral towards women but actually neutral towards women but actually favor. people people people like themselves but the people people like themselves but the outcomes are the same but the outcomes are the same. And it's probably actually harder it And it's probably actually harder to tackle favoritism and honesty. y, it to kind of think about it y, it to kind of think about legislation. So we have a question on. August is a good one. So how would you respond to Dr. Joy So how would you respond to Dr. So how would you respond to Dr. Jordan Peterson's claim that men and women cannot ever be equal, and it was truly roosted equal, and it was truly roosted on the evolutionary makeup. of the same of the sexes, which implies of the sexes, which implies a certain things are jobs are naturally suited for one second. more than re than another than another. just don't believe that to be true. true. I mean. n, if everything were evolution n, if everything were evolutionarily determined, then evolutionarily determined, then it would the differences the sex it would the differences the sex differences would be true in sex differences would be true in it sex differences would be true in at all times and. in all in all countries, because it was in all countries, because it was in all countries, because it would just be a basic part of would just be a basic part of our genetic makeup. But there are. societies in which societies in which societies in which women are in societies in which women are in Charge and Charge, and they exhibit very. different different characteristics to different characteristics to patriarchal societies. So one patriarchal societies. So one great study looked at competitiveness. I bet you order pizza and would say I bet you order pizza and would say managers not to be more competitive than women. And that's because they were. e chasing manner swag e chasing manners while women were just picking berries or you know they were competing from. e it's in a way that e it's in a way that women didn't have something like that. So these researchers looked So these researchers looked at the kasi society. ty in india which is in india which is matrilineal. and and. This is a really great so. ry by the way ry by the way so it's you're in easy by the way so it's you're in easy. john this economy john this Econometrica, if I'm not mistaken, and it not mistaken, and it's a really, really big. orous rigorous piece of work orous rigorous piece of work, but it reminds me of narratives that but it reminds me of narratives that that study so if you grow up. being being told that told that you're not meant to compete, you not meant to compete, you internalize that and then I meet you a 2030 4050 years meet you a 2030 4050 years of age, and you don't have. 't have that trace 't have that trace, whereas obviously the women in. that study we're, we're that study where were they were running, they were running the, they were running things. so from the very beginning. They were from the very beginning. They were given the permission if you like to be competitive. Yeah you like to be competitive. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I mean I've actually despite being I mean I've actually despite being female I've always been very competitive. Probably because I was very close in age to my older brother and close in age to my older brother and we were very brother and we were very competitive with each other I don't maybe that's why I'm don't maybe that's why I'm actually saying the book. actually actually, you know, not all. women women are less competitive the man I'm actually pretty man I'm actually pretty competitive and then I said in brackets. I want then I said in brackets. I wonder if that made you feel better. ncomfortable reading that. and say and several people who said it did and several people who said it did, because the idea of a woman missing that she's competitive. it goes it goes it goes against our stereotypes it goes against our stereotypes. Get this feedback in annual Get this feedback in annual Get this feedback in annual reviews you know you need to be less competitive much more often if you're a woman as compared to them. minute and actually doing those 10 minute and actually doing those texts analysis is really really fascinating the different type of language that we use and the alpha males will be alpha males were being competitive scene as. positive positive traits, as compare positive traits, as compared to the women who are in the same organization. Yeah, there was a fascinating study done of women in tech. company companies women and men in check companies women and men in tech companies that their companies that their evaluations and companies that their evaluations, and women are much more likely women are much more likely to be Criticized for being assertive. e, or aggressive than e, or aggressive than men. And when the word once you submit it was usually that they weren't too. rtive or aggressive or aggressive enough. but it tells you the type of conditioning that we have as well about what a leader actually looks like so, for the actually looks like so, for the quietly confident. t man as well they're probably t man as well they're probably experiencing some of the backlash of the women that we're talking about tonight. Yeah, but you know if we do Yeah, but you know, if we just, we just tried to get rid of these. ereotype stereotypes which are based on income which are based on incredibly anachronistic. assumption assumptions, then actually meant assumptions, then actually men will be much better off as well as women because they could be their authentic selves. So we have a question from So we have a question from Anna, who is one of our executive behavioral science students hi Anna behavioral science students hi Anna, what can be done to reduce the job. he genetic traits that
workplaces he genetic traits that workplaces, where we always have to assume that to be successful at work you need to possess them, or maybe the value of inclusion
life maybe the value of inclusion lies and having a gentler conversation about what success means. Yeah, absolutely. I completely. agree agree with that and that's what e all want to aim for in the longer about what success means. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that and that's what we all want to aim for in the longer term, and I'm sure do you think we're getting there. I think I think if you look at. I think if you look at. If you look at studies of
leaders you look at studies of leadership. Most academics now understand Most academics now understand that what's called transformational leadership. ip is, is the ip is, is the most successful for me ip is, is the most successful form of leadership and that is on the whole being more collaborative, be more Democratic. taking more care to engage taking more care to engage your employees, and this is actually employees, and this is actually a form of Leadership that women a form of Leadership that women a form of Leadership that women tend to be better at, and then. and if And in fact, men who does And in fact, many you display this are often praise for but for being more successful leaders for being more successful leaders. So I think we're getting there. very slowly very slowly but we're getting there very slowly but we are guessing there slowly but we are guessing
there. Do you think, Mary and so a lot of the evidence coming out of of the evidence coming out of kind of job load data and how we actually price. and jobs and jobs to suggest that and jobs to suggest that me jobs to suggest that empathy, being. humble humble being collaborative humble being collaborative, that these are all trades that are needed for the future of work so the need was shifting if you'd like from being command and control to be being command and control to be more collaborative. Do you think that women will not Do you think that women will naturally make Progress because of those shifts, or do you think that some of that I want to call it offers Paul. itics and that's probably and that's probably the wrong way to label it but some of the wrong way to label it but some of the office politics that you bring up in the authority gap. will push out the games. Instead of how Jesus I think there is a danger of that because if women were judged. tally on tally on the merits then, yes I think there is a danger of that because if women were judged entirely on the merits then yes of course, they would they would really benefit from that. But the mistake that we made But the mistake that we make in judging employees, is that we missed judging employees, is that we mistake confidence for competence. And so often Manimal competence so often Manimal competent, sorry, not. minimum confidence. day after day, if your parents think day after day, if your parents think you're less clever than your brother that will dense your brother that will dense your confidence, and also boys are encouraged to be confident and. girls girls on the whole are encouraged to girls on the whole are encouraged to be self deprecating and to, you know, underestimate their abilities their abilities. So men on the whole armor. confident than women. It doesn't make them more competent though, but we're competent though, but we're very bad competent though, but we're very bad, you know. ow, we tend to mistake ow, we tend to mistake the two, and as a result we will, you know know and as a result we will, you know, promote the. sort of sort of, blustering confidence sort of, blustering confident blogging man. blogging man. an Over the Over the actually actually quietly much more competent actually quietly much more competent women. And I think that we've got to change. We've we've got to, we've got to look very we've got to, we've got to look very carefully at our Assumptions, when we evaluate and interview people also to under and interview people also to understand that we make it so much harder for women to get the right to get it right. when it when it comes to confidence because when it comes to confidence because as I said earlier, you know if they're not. confident confident confident enough we say they're not assertive enough they're not good enough that they can't make not good enough that they can't make the grade, but if the as confident as the men confident as the men quite often they get penalized. scores and scores and dislike, and scores and dislike, and what you're saying. So we talked about the kind of advice you might give to one person who's actually. being excluded and having a hard being excluded and having a hard time. time. really kind of points me in the really kind of points me in the direction that advocates kind of application is a really of application is a really of application is a really important role for senior management and really paying attention to who they're advocating for because if we don't want women. speak speaking up for themselves. If we don't want women to see. overly overly confident and there's this backlash affect it this backlash effect. It's really important that other people are advocating for them, and I didn't. their facility. Yeah, very much so. because because because men are allowed to say because men are allowed to self promote and a we believe them promote and a we believe them and be we think. it's perfectly acceptable, and it's perfectly acceptable, and that it's perfectly acceptable and natural women are not allowed self natural women are not allowed self promote so studies show that women who do that women who do that women who do self promote. our scene seeing are seen as unlikable and seen as unlikable, and I'm here. So, this is really hard because So, this is really hard because if you're going up for a job and you know you want to tell them all about your ability and your them all about your ability and your achievements. You again have this double bind them You again have this double bind. can easily do that to get away with it. So, until we with it. So, until we can change our bases yes we need change our bases yes we need other people to advocate for us and say she's really good look and say she's really good. Look at her achievements. in order Alien is. asking if there's a religion asking if there's a relationship between exhaustion for. urn down or burnout and the as hard down or burnout and the src gap. he got a he got a well done he got a well. That is a big relation he got a well. That is a big relationship between exhaustion burnout and being female. Because we do 60% more unpaid we do 60% more unpaid work on average. them, if we have mail them, if we have male partners then them. them. So that's So that's a big problem. Yes So that's a big problem. Yes. and so, you know, if you add. to that to that the emotional layer to that the emotional labor of to that the emotional labor of having to you know be incredibly well. warm and sometimes in authentic warm and sometimes inauthentic in order to be taken seriously in order to be taken seriously at work. Yeah, he fought like you to get he fought like you to get pretty exhausted. d and burnt out and this is
about nd burnt out and this is a burden that man simply don't have to bear. So paris we we spoke about advocate paris we we spoke about application Paris. will is asking will is asking, I was wondering if there had been successful into if there had been successful interventions that you know have that make men and women's voice more equal in the workplace. There is an app called women There is an app called women interrupted, which judges how often. women women interrupted women interrupted and meetings, and there are other apps that actually just measure speed actually just measure speaking time and then. can tell can tell by the picture of your voice, whether you're male or female. So that's quite handy, both So that's quite handy, both that's quite handy. Both of them and some. female female chairs, do you actually use them, I didn't have any Mail chairs do not know Mail chairs do not know that have talked to me. I think even the saliency of I think even the saliency have been told that as a chair. If. f you, if you assume good into f you, if you assume good intentions Might get the chair to change how they actually to change how they actually behave and running the meeting. I mean there's, there is
evidence mean there's, there is evidence to suggest that. after after today talk or a seminar talk or a seminar, or whatever. If or a seminar, or whatever. If the first question. estion in the q amp a is female estion in the q amp a is female more women subsequently will more women subsequently will ask questions. And so, if I'm chair And so, if I'm chairing a q amp
a so, if I'm chairing a q amp a I will always try and call. a one a woman first for exactly that a woman first for exactly that a woman first for exactly that reason. There's another very good study of speaking time. which which are which our students to give which our students to give a talk, and they gave them via talk, and they gave them vR goggles and which. what they what they saw was an audience they saw was an audience, and discreetly play discreetly placed in the back of the room. m was a big portrait m was a big portrait either if Hillary clinton angle. a Merkel a Merkel, Bill Clinton or Merkel, Bill Clinton or none at all. . And when the picture was . And when the picture was of Hillary Clinton or Angela
Merkel. The female students talks. s 50% longer than s 50% longer than when it was bill Clinton or none at all, and bill Clinton or none at all. And as Judged by the audience they speak more eloquently. y. So something that subliminal y. So something that subliminal subliminal a role model can make such as. ifference ifference I mean that's at least ifference I mean that's at least cluster, walls with women. walls with women. I didn't make any difference to the male students, by the way. or just Jeff or just Jeff Oh, Jessica who asked a question are you shared with me. or Jessica who asked the question, are you shared with
me. about But Angela Merkel being asked questions about cooking. at about her clothing. I know I interviewed I know I interviewed identifiable six I know I interviewed identifiable six former Prime ministers and presidents and , I don't know five or six , I don't know five or six former prime ministers and presidents and they all complain about the attention paid to their looks. which which man just never had to do which man just never had to deal with and you know the main could be fat and know the main could be fat and balding and have dandruff and God knows. just allowed allowed to carry on being
policy. icians but know that women icians but know that women, it icians but know that women. It just gets endlessly pics over what they were how they do their hair. and actually in my and actually in my chapter about the media, I say you know one really the media, I say you know one really simple thing would be. that for journalists, right that for journalists, writing about when. en in the public eye jus in the public eye. Just ask themselves every time Just ask themselves every time would Just ask themselves every time. When I say this about a man, and if not. delete delete that now delete that will make a big difference I think, I think. the role of the media and then role of the media and this time. s to create changes to create changes is immense. to create changes is immense. And that one small change, I think And that one small change I think could really good really took our culture. card is card i was asking I think that you might have answered this already but I'll let you decide how. the your the your analysis in your book changes for women of color. Now I think I have already. answered it answered it is just a lot worse answered it is just a lot worse I'm afraid. And of course there are two. added things added things sorry I will I will added things sorry I will I will answer and I'll say some more because there were two added things. One is that the. racial stereotypes often go racial stereotypes often get overlaid onto. agenda a gender stereotypes, so a gender stereotypes. So you get a gender stereotypes. So you get terrible things like you know the angry black woman or. or submissive Asian woman or submissive Asian woman, and submissive Asian woman. And, and this compounds the problem you know so suppose. a black a black woman says a black woman says, hang on a minute minute a black woman says, hang on a minute, I was speaking there could you not interrupt suddenly she'll be the angry difficult black woman. It's bad enough if you're white but it's even worse if you're black. So sorry it's escaped my mind. Okay, we'll come back to me. and Carlos and Carlos, asking, Can we document document and Carlos, asking, Can we document that the data discrimination against women in early. Go ahead Oh, go ahead. I just remember Oh, go ahead. I just remembered. Yes, so if you're a woman Yes, so if you're a woman of color, and you do some color, and you do succeed, . quite often, you're just t written off as the diversity
Hi t written off as the diversity Higher written off as the diversity Higher. And so even if you you've been. appointed appointed on merits people will appointed on merits people will because of the color of her skin. That was the other thing I was going to say, I think as well when they when they. 's quote 's quote as if your higher 's quote as if you're hired you do need sharp elbows because voice is because voice is diminished. ed in the C suite, but ed in the C suite, but I think having those people take the seats is really important, you seats is really important, you know seats is really important. You know, so having people actually. show up be role models and if show up be role models and if they can't have sharp elbows and god, I hate to say it but have a thick skin because it makes thick skin because it makes it so much easier for the second for the third, you know, for. the fourth the fourth I'm a real apartment the fourth I'm a real proponent of quarters. But I do think the voice might get a bit diminish the right person. that receives that receives that receives is super impose receives is super important. is asking if a lot of what you're finding is to do with. th mothers in early career th mothers in early career is will then rather be. ng a woman ng a woman per se, so if you contrast women who don't have children as compared to women who have children. and I'm I'm afraid it kicks in long before motherhood motherhood really compounds it so. you know you know once you have a child you know once you have a child you're immediately deemed to be less competent and less committed to your to your work. than before, so that than before. So that really compounds it on d the pay gap widens hugely d the pay gap widens hugely once you have children, but it does start earlier than that, and that's why there's already a pickup that's why there's already a pickup generally. pickup generally. when couples start to have children when couples start to have children and that's why. Quite often, you know that much more Quite often, you know that much more often than even a straight relationship. The man is earning more than the mother. and then and therefore, it makes and therefore, it makes sense for her to, you know. , why entire career down a bit , why entire career down a bit work part time whichever it is. adding more and he's already. anymore more and he's already anymore because of the authority gap, and you know there are there are studies. done of course, you know, psycho done of course, you know, psychologists often do your students to do their studies. And so quite a lot of these tudies have been done on students who only want 1920 students who only want 1920
2122. whatever whatever. There was a study done whatever. There was a study done of biology students, for instance, and they were asked to nominate. to is the best to is the best informed, and
some e to is the best informed and smartest member of their class, and it was done throughout the course of it was done throughout the course of a year, and the female bye course of a year, and the female course of a year, and the female biology students. ts on average answered it ts on average answered it very accurately they did manage to pinpoint the best informed the smartest members of the class that smartest members of the class. The mail ones disproportion The mail ones disproportion The mail ones disproportionately put forward, other male student put forward, other male students, even when the female. ones were smarter and better and ones were smarter and better informed and this gap actually widened during the course of the year when. they've had more chance they've had more chance to see the they've had more chance to see the classmates in action. So these are 1920 year old these are 1920 year old young men. And, and in some of the most liberal universities as well as where these. days are done. So, you know are done. so you know if you, u, if you take it out, you might expect the gap to get bigger rather than for them. smaller smaller and flora smaller florists is asking how come smaller florists is asking how can men of generation said be allies can men of generation said be allies to women in the workplace and borders to women in the workplace and bought a society without being punished recording out antiquated behavior. of older older men and power. Oh, it's so tricky to call out the behavior of have more. senior colleague colleagues, isn't it. it, I think. ink, I think you should I do it I think. think you should I do i do that. rry I will have a much more sensible answer to be but I didn't used to call it out. There is an interesting study. which ng study which shows that me ng study which shows that men are often scared of calling out sexist behavior because they overestimate the SExism. of other man. and the other man and the other man I'll actually that and the other man I'll actually don't have quite such sexist attitudes as men assume and therefore. refore might be more receptive to this might be more receptive to this sort of thing being called out. And so you know if you're. a man and a a man in a group with other men, and they start dissing women or and they start dissing women are saying sexist things. ngs. I think just be brave and have moral courage and say have moral courage and say have moral courage and say so. have moral courage and say so. I say what advice would you have for I say what advice would you have for autistic women in the workplace in relation to the authority gap. So I'm guessing that the. the authority authority gap compounds. this This is an adventure is an adventure of intersection ality so what. advice advice would you have well would you have. And of course, it's harder for you to have sort of instinctive emotional reactions but you emotional reactions but you probably do spend a lot of probably do spend a lot of your life. Putting putting on reactions that you know putting on reactions that you know you're supposed to have even if you don't. and so, in a way so, in a way, perhaps forcing. yourself yourself to smile and to smile and, and. , you know , you know, have this character , you know, have this carrier , you know, have this carrier piece of warmth might even be easier. for you for you because you're for you because you always have to act in order to fit in, in to act in order to fit in. In a we're in a way that. t neurotypical women have neurotypical women have to do less. or upset. g sending your typical Manhattan g sending your typical Men have to do less, but I you know I'm not an expert on this. this. So, the last question So, The last question that I want to bundle two questions and you can answer them and. anything else that you anything else that you want to anything else that you want to add anything else that you want to add that we haven't covered. So add that we haven't covered. So one question on role models, asking one question on role models, one question on role models, asking if there's any evidence. e and how role models can be effect and how role models can be effective in the workplace. And then we have a And then we have a personal And then we have a personal question from shirvani, who says question from shirvani, who who says, I used to stay with some caveats work I struggled to combat this because. I believe I believe I know what I'm talking about 92% in that way it's important it's important to talk about those caveats to talk about those caveats and disclaimers, how do I fight against the. employer implications of fitting into implications of fitting into agenda role, being seen as less confident being shown by. a man who doesn't have a new a man who doesn't have the nuances, while being authentic being authentic and doing my job very well, so that. is such a is such a, such a tricky question is such a, such a tricky question. Such tricky question, I mean Such tricky question, I mean, I think, do you mean, it was it think, do you mean, she was actually born. bonnie, I bonnie. I think she bonnie is I think she bonnie is is trying to. o juggle be more o juggle being authentic and juggle being authentic and trying to proceed. somebody ersuade somebody who basically ersuade somebody who basically expect her to be a certain note. behavior in a certain way. way, it's just really difficult. I would I would love to live in a world in which we can all be authentic. Sadly we can't be. or at least week or at least we can be but then we won't get on there is we won't get on there is this trade off and you have to decide for yourself. how much you prepare how much you are prepared to If I think he was, he was I think he was, she was talking she was talking about. disclaimer disclaimers and that sort of thing. I think that's something we can shake off we can stop apology we can shake off we can stop apologizing for being. apologizing for being. ourselves ourselves and we can stop saying well ourselves and we can stop saying well I don't know much about this but unless it's genuinely true as genuinely true as with me in autism just now. I don't do yourself down. I think I think I would, I would advise women really don't do yourself down because if you do. people people people will believe you. If people will believe you. If you say, oh no good at math, in a way say, oh no good at math in a way that you know girls are so trained to do people think you're no good at math. maths even if you are so even if you are so many believed when even if you are so many believed when they say they're better than they are. And women have. lieve believed when they say they're worse if you do, people will believe you. If you say are no good at maths, in a way that you know girls are so trained to do people think you're no good at maths even if you are so many believed when they say they're better than they are. And women have believed when they say they're worse and they are men have to. stop boasting and bragging. We stop boasting and bragging, we have to start actually be. being accurate about our being accurate about our abilities and not doing them down. sorry you're gonna have to remind me of. f the question before that now, and it's on Role models so. o the importance of Rome off
here the importance of all marketers, so. uch research has been done on this and they are unbeliever this and they are unbelievably helpful. I mean I talked about this justice mean I talked about this just a subliminal effect. ts of seeing a female up on the wall ts of seeing a female up on the wall. And if you know that there was an amazing study down of women in STEM. , have a certain age , have a certain age old , have a certain age old enough to have watch the x Files, well to have watch the x Files, when they were young. and the and The X Files The X Files, of course had this fantastic characters scully, who was a characters scully, who was a really complex. etent and interesting etent and interesting female scientist. the X Files. And you the X Files. And you think, one, two the X Files. And you think of one TV show, can have that effect on one TV show, can have that effect on people's lives. you know You know what kind of female role You know what kind of female role models all over the world do for us, an enormous amount is the answer. Did you grasp that you were
wrong Did you grasp that you are a role model in kind of a man's industry when you were writing for the times. although those all those years. all those years. I think think like yeah I did actually. Yeah. And if and in fact I helped along with and in fact I helped along with some other female journalists. I helped to set up an organization called women in journalism. s and we will s and we will ready senior in the end the end s and we will ready senior in unusual in order to help younger women coming up and younger women coming up, and you know give them all sorts of mentoring advice. Yeah, and I think Yeah, and I think that's a great ve them all sorts of mentoring and advice. Yeah, and I think that's a great note, you know to leave it on I think for people who are struggling and work. , finding a group finding finding a group finding an ally. to talk to who is the person who talk to who is the person who's who's doing them down. , can also be can also , can also be can also be a solution. Yeah, very much. Is there anything you want to eat is already know that you want to leave us on before we ring off. the way very much. Sure. Is there anything you want to leave early note that you want to leave us on before we ring off the world Can change. it, you know, I had a message the other day from a had a message the other day from a reader who said her neck muscles were aching from nodding so much. so much. and she said it's amazing. He lives and she said it's amazing. He listens to me more. He asked me questions. you know you know thank you so much. I just you know thank you so much. And I just think we can change the world one has. sband at the time that at the time. Let's just try and do that. Typically tipping tipping. Thank you tipping. Thank you so much, Maria. I got it could if I could have spoken to you for much longer i really appreciate you taking the time out. if you f you haven't read the authority got f you haven't read the authority got to go and get the link is in the chat. that can can help you, or you can go to mariana or you can go to marriotts website Marianne. secret. com. Thank you so much, you're desperate and bonnie, and you're finally thank you Marianne you're finally thank you Mary and let's keep in touch. h. I'm really looking forward to h. I'm really looking forward to the next chapter hopefully the world would have changed. Thanks very much delight to talk to you soon. Bye
