Atheist Experience #908 with Russell Glasser and Ryan Bell

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[Music] [Music] hello everybody welcome to the Atheist Experience I am your host Russell Glasser and with me today joining us for the first time is Ryan Bell thank you thanks for having me you may recognize Ryan Bell from such blogs as year without God today is Sunday March 8th 2015 we are a live call-in public-access atheist television show based in Austin Texas dedicated to promoting positive atheism and the separation of church and state we are available through live streaming at Ustream TV the official atheist experience website is WWE theist experience calm and you can provide feedback by commenting on the official show blog freethought blogs comm /a XP or you can email TV at atheist - community org if you enjoy the show today please check out our related podcast the nonprofit's which is currently airing on the first and third Wednesday of the month live at the ACA building where we just had a pizza party there won't be any pizza left at the next show but come on down anyway in a couple weeks and as always the cast and crew of the Atheist experience and presumably Ryan are going to be going to dinner at El Arroyo at 1624 West 5th Street arriving around 6 p.m. so welcome to Austin thank you it's good to be here yeah so we saw you do a lecture today for people who might not have heard that lecture or heard of you before what's going on with you well I probably a lot of people have heard I've been doing this year without god blog and experience during 2014 and back at the beginning of 2014 I had come to a place in my life where I was sort of at the end of my rope when it comes to religion and my faith I had been a pastor for about 20 years and I just decided I was gonna take the next year of my life and really explore what atheism looks like what the arguments are what people who are atheists give as reasons why they've become atheists and just explore that as a possible answer to the many questions that I had accumulated over 20 years of ministry and probably 40 years of being a Christian so in January of this this year I I decided that I was an atheist and and alright yeah yeah it's one of those big decisions in life I guess and so now I've been in San Antonio yesterday in Austin today talking to you a couple of different groups and meeting new people and sharing my story so so when you started this year without God thing I guess a lot of people who had heard about you were a little suspicious about whether you were just gonna use it as like a way to showboat and go back and say oh I checked out atheist all atheism has to offer and definitely come back Jesus yeah what were you thinking at the beginning what I was I guess what I was thinking was that I had this personal crisis in my own life and I needed a way to process through that and so I I was leaning atheist I was leaning towards this idea that there isn't a god I mean it was the one thing that I hadn't really spent any time focused on in terms of how to make sense of the experiences that I had and the inconsistencies and the challenges that I had trying to fit my lived experience of the world into a biblical Christian worldview and I had been working at that theologically for a long time and had resigned from my ministry in the seventh-day Adventist Church about nine months prior and that gave me the space and the freedom and the mental sort of space to think about a different way of thinking about the world and and so I was leaning atheist but I really started that year hoping that I would figure out a way to believe in God I mean that was my background that was my whole history that was everything I had given my professional and academic life to and so the idea of starting over with a whole new way of looking at the world wasn't super attractive to me but I did want to find the truth I wanted to know the truth and so that's kind of kind of how I started the year I hadn't done any research really preparing me for that year I hadn't googled all the atheist groups I could find to figure out what was going on I really just ignorant lis sort of stumbled into I wonder if there are atheists out there talking about atheism let's go find out did you actually have a hard time like or I mean you say that you weren't sure if you would find any atheists out there like was this a surprise coming from your seventh-day Adventist background that there were actually were groups of atheists who were talking to each other a little bit I mean I did it there would be atheists I thought that there would be obviously people who didn't believe in God I had experienced people in my own life that didn't believe in God but I I didn't as much have the sense that there were gatherings or conventions or organized groups I was more familiar with the separation of church and state groups and the Adventist Church actually is heavily invested in the separation of church and state so that was familiar to me but I wasn't as aware at really at all that there were organized groups of free thinkers skeptics atheists that were meeting on a regular basis to kind of discuss how to advance the site these ideas so it was a little bit new to me cool well I had some other questions but I feel like our first caller is actually going to ask some of them for me so if you don't mind I'm gonna cut straight to Phillip in Chicago and hey Phillip how are you today look Oh line one I forgot the phone's busted again Philip hey how's it going hi how are you feel good hey pastor how you doing doing well what that's good oh yeah if you've still got your TV or stream on then turn it off because you're getting some echo okay okay okay hear me yes okay what's on your mind monix free my question is to do with the title we got the Atheist experience and I see uh basically my question has to do with as atheist experience something bad on the topic of the Bible theologically in order to reside with their label so there are two of us here today and actually I am a lifelong atheist so my answer is real short and sweet no I'm gonna kick this over to Ryan to see what what he thinks are you asking whether or not atheists have had a bad experience with Christianity and that's why they're atheist allow me to identify myself um basically I think I'm an atheist I actually think I'm a original atheist before the separation of church and state this atheist wars it did not even get to theirs there's one that made it in the dictionary and then there's the one before the Romans and that whole fall went that the atheist believe you mean Christians were referred to as a lawyer because they didn't believe in Roman God rather than God that what you're saying they did they only believe in nature full nature beyond cosmos sure but you're a Christian right that's what people call me okay fair enough well do you believe yeah what's the question there well his question I think he was asking in general but did you in particular have a like especially bad experience with Christian with religion that turned you away from the whole thing I mean I think anybody that has spends any time around religious people has bad experiences I mean I think if you're a member of a political party and you spend time with the members of your party you'll probably have some bad experiences too but in general I had a great experience in the church my childhood growing up in the church was really positive you know summer camp youth group just good conversation about issues that I cared about and so I would say even as a pastor I mean it's it's hard work being a pastor you're exposed to sort of the ugly underbelly of the church in a way like the politics of it but in general I really loved being a pastor I had I had a really good experience so you're still a faster just won a different label I mean sometimes it feels that way I mean I feel like sometimes I'm asked to answer questions or share my experience with others or listen to others as they share their experience with me in a way that is somewhat pastoral or or like a chaplain in a way so something I mean I'm not sure where you're headed with the label but it it sometimes feels appropriate yes I I have a theory that everybody that dislike something they had an experience that took them elsewhere and how long had to do with people you're I mean if you're going to try to apply this universally to all atheists you should take into account my experience which is my parents were also atheists I never really grew up believing in God and I haven't had any particular trauma around religion I like being an atheist and I've never been particularly tempted by by the Bible or Jesus or anything like that so you might want have you ever been attempted mm-hmm sorry sorry about that have you ever been tempted to do the things that are attractive in the Bible like loving your neighbor loving your enemy even though that's hard you can do that stuff without believing that there is a God I mean there's nothing unique to the Bible that that may that precludes love if you don't follow the Bible what do you mean by a I know this not the original original but it's actually I strongly believe that the Bible has not necessarily in this translated many translated forms but as far as the bunk in the elements of the original hermeneutical approach text that's where you going to find that these are universal laws yeah but I don't think you quite understand where I'm coming from I don't care I mean there are some good things in the Bible and there are some bad things in the Bible and I think that it makes the most sense to evaluate the things that you hear in context of what you understand about the world in general and there's no more special reason to take the word of the Bible or to worry about whether the Bible is properly translated and says only good things then there is to try to overanalyze like Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky Pro poem you know I mean don't give the Bible any special consideration what I mean isn't like the atheist experience so I think that experiences are all about the meaning that you attach to things you know there's this this this separation between church and state we got and then all of the money that is printed says In God We Trust I think it's probably one of the most important issues otherwise this radio station I'm not sure where it would be Norman Norman myself well uh that's stuff demonstrates that it has a stronger cultural foothold than a lot of things but that doesn't make it correct so what is God according to the Bible faster say it again according to the to the Bible theologically speaking and Herman dutifully speaking what did you find out is the entity of God from your studies and all your work that you've been doing well I mean I really feel like that God is the I guess I would say that is the the projection of human beings longings and desires and hopes and dreams and wishes even fears and that we we take these aspirations that we have for ourselves and for our community and we've projected them largely onto this big screen of the universe it's also been you know God has also served a purpose in I'm talk about the concept of God has served a purpose and I think explaining unexplainable phenomenon in history and also keeping people in line like I think the the idea of God and what God could do to you if you step out of line the threat of punishment those are the types of things that I think communities human communities have often used to create order and structure in society and explain you know scientific things that we didn't understand at that time so so I mean God has a history and how God came to be and and to me this is one of the things that I think helped me the most in in sort of just letting go of this concept of a divine being that actually exists aside from the fact that if you have a if you have an idea about a God that intervenes in the world and participates in our lives you know aside from the fact that that actually never happens in any sort of predictable way or discernible way beyond that the thing that makes the most sense to me is that you know in the beginning we created God and ascribed to to God these qualities that we would like to have ourselves in a way and I also think it was part of our fear of dying I think people in general are afraid of dying I don't want to die anytime soon I doubt anybody here goes either so in the desire to live forever I mean we you know we have other mythology about living forever - the Fountain of Youth and and all kinds of you know Peter Pan and never Neverland and all these stories that we tell about how we can live forever and I think you know the Gods story is another one of those about how we can if we do the right thing and follow the right path we can live forever and so I think the fear of death is a big motivation and how we've created gods and the need for God so out of the atheists on solve that being that we live in a country that has supposedly separated from the church I'm not sure it was it join the church eighty-five percent of the people in this country is Christian and the vast majority of like political leaders and and like business leaders claim to have some kind of Christianity so from my perspective at least the country certainly has not turned away from the church or God yeah I mean it's tough to separate you know the country from God when you hear political speech and and you know especially around election cycles everybody is striving to be the best Christian you know at that moment so how do you be the best Christian well - how can someone be the best person or the best atheist like that is not a question for us to sort out because again we don't care yeah I mean I think in the political realm it just means claiming in dollars I think you would care like if if I took care of all your cares and that was and I was saying that was I'm a Jabberwocky or I'm a Christian and I did something that just changed your whole entire life if you did one million dollars I might be willing to fake it for you but that is not the same thing as actually as actually accepting that the state is there yeah I don't know you have you got this I wish but I mean as far as like giving you something that you absolutely desire like as far as uh like uh like love like do you know like a cop a love like giving you say that one more time I've got love I know what you mean you've got it I I think I know what you mean like you're talking about like if I had eternal life the key to eternal life you'd want to know about that you'd want me to tell you about that and and I think the claim that Christians make is is profound and if it's true everybody should pay attention it's a pretty amazing claim it's just that there's no there's no real evidence which was particular I'm sorry which particular claiming to do love at least from your experience the Christians may God is what's the question they got a good which claim do Christians make oh so many lots of so many claims I mean I think I mean you're talking about love and peace and all of those things that Christians promise that when you when you accept Jesus you'll have peace in your life and I mean so many people that I've talked to atheists that I've talked to they had more peace after they gave up their faith and when they were Christians I mean I'm actually a person who's an experienced an increase in peace and joy in my life as I've stopped trying to sort of manipulate my mind and the Bible to make pieces fit together that just don't fit together I mean that's exhausting heavy work and and when you don't have to do that work anymore when you can simply take the world as it exists in front of you and deal with it as it's happening in real time without trying to layer on some kind of other explanation for why it's all here and where it's all going to me I experienced a great deal of peace of that you seem to be living the life of Jesus if you say so right I don't I mean Jesus would have been like seal I mean theologically with the words in the language Jesus would have been one of those real atheists then why the religious church will put him through hell yeah because they were rescued way of religion there is an interesting theological argument that on the cross Jesus would became an atheist you know where he said father why have you forsaken me and and and so Jesus sort of gives up on God - so maybe we don't know right right right I I do believe that Jesus is Lord I think that he I can't think it lives inside of us as far as as far as not the person like the different details that are political I really believe in that case you can say you're an atheist all you want but most of us atheists around here don't have any Lord let alone Jesus and I like it that way what about gravity what about money what about all these things that control you on a daily basis I don't refer to my lord I don't know ship gravity or give money to it or or set aside time to pray to gravity so no what do you give money to and that's that's what I'm talking about who is Lord food do you give money who's on top I got other people on the line so I'm sorry it's banning you for not not hanging up on me you guys are awesome cool keep it up keep up the good Lou are awesome - Philip thank you Rock yeah Pete gimme line three hello Joseph in Colorado Springs what are you doing today pretty good how are you not too bad I wanted that sequence I've asked to call into the show by somebody actually and the topic I want to cover was objective morality alright um I talked a lot of atheists in I'm actually close friends a lot of them that's you know um how do you justify think without objective morality and I'm not saying that you need um how do I say this how do you justify things that you do is being moral without having a set of what - uh of guidelines you call things tomorrow I'm gonna let our guest go first again unless you need it unless you need some support no no I'm you know I think I'm sure you've had to talk about this a lot this year this this comes up a lot I think that this desire for objective anything is an illusion a desire for something that doesn't really exist when I was when I was a pastor people wanted to know about the the ideal church or the ideal behavior or the ideal way of praying or the ideal worship service or the it-- whatever they always were looking for this idealism this sort of platonic purity that we could somehow access the bad we could get to that you know that pristine you know if we could if we could find the perfect coffee mug then we could fashion every other coffee mug after that coffee mug and we would have perfect coffee mug and I just think none of that exists like I don't think any of that is real I really feel like morality is the way that we have together chosen to maximize the experience of our lives and the extent the life and experience of other people I think morality is what the way that we behave that helps the most people experience the most joy and happiness in life and when we inhibit other people's happiness in ways that we could avoid doing that to me that that becomes a question of morality let me add on to that for a minute I think that there are different ways that objectively could be used and I think a lot of morality is based around like Ryan said trying to maximize the happiness of people around us and also in a bigger sense sort of getting along with each other as as a large-scale society and it morality is going to have to be about accomplishing the goal of living up to particular values that you have the values could hypothetically be subjective in some way because they are relative to the people who have the values like for instance if cows were to make the most moral Society then I think hamburgers would certainly be banned but given that we can agree on a certain set of value judgments and I think most of us can because there are a lot of things we value like living a long life living a happy life not being in fear of dying or of losing all our stuff all the time finding love given that those are our objectives there are objective ways to achieve those just like for instance there are objective ways to achieve a healthy body like right if you eat good food and don't smoke and don't do a lot of other bad things that are bad for you those are objectively ways to increase your chances of survival and similar to that behaving in what we refer to as a moral fashion is a way of maximizing like Ryan said you know our our happiness and and good living and there are there are ideas that the Bible presents as moral which are actually counter to some of those objectives and and people wind up arguing about how those things are really good for us even if it's not obvious and like I said to the first caller it doesn't much matter to me that the Bible says a thing is you have to actually analyze whether it matches what reality appears to be well I'm gonna put it questions up would you say a large um I guess morality with a pen the society or the group of people here that you're talking about like like if well I think we can all agree probably most of us would agree that you know killing somebody or raping somebody or you know hurting a child probably wouldn't be moral but there are societies yeah that's totally kept going yeah the Bible doesn't always agree with that either yeah I mean I think morality has evolved in the same way that people have evolved and what I meant before by their not being in this objective so like it with a capital o objective standard is that I think morality is an open-source project right it's it's a wiki you know we're always working deep after my own heart yeah yeah yeah we're always working together in society this is what democracy is about right democracy is about all of us theoretically working together to decide what is the good life and how do we give the most people ideally all people yeah as as to that good life a society where most of the members agree that rape is a good idea might be great for potential rapists maybe maybe not it's dead wouldn't last it was definitely bad for for the rape victims right and enough of that behavior and something would change like I don't think like take murder for example if you know there was that stupid film that came out a few days ago where they like suspend all the laws for okay for for a day and everybody just goes around killing yeah yeah which is just absurd like I don't thinks later or something yeah somebody famous and it was it was this idea like if we suspended all moral values for a day what would people do would they just like go around randomly like just murdering people and I just think society wouldn't last and the reason why we have moral standards roughly speaking in society is because we've learned that this is the best way to live together killing people is not productive to the flourishing of society the advancement of our species it just doesn't work it's not practical um what I want to ask you I don't know if you guys got a heads up to this before you guys answer the call from me um you're aware of what be your what Calvinism teaches right yes Calgon is Calvinists believe that correct me if I'm wrong here it's predetermined whether you are going to heaven or hell or not and you cannot change your ultimate fate but you can demonstrate through your actions where you're ultimately intended to go is that right right questions so if you look like let's just say that all moral values were suspended for a day you kind of sit on that and make me think if I'm asked a question do you believe that people would people would do those sort of things I think some people would yeah I don't have any particular interest in raping anyone maybe someone that has a grudge against somebody would take it out if they knew there were no consequences yeah sometimes threat of punishment will keep people from doing that yeah I mean but here's the thing I am for social consequences and I'm for societal decisions to punish bad actors of what total depravity no because I said some people would probably kill each other but I think most people wouldn't even as a Christian I didn't believe in total depravity it could be well I can't do nothing I can't get in trouble today so I'm gonna go steal from this for the disc run a t-bird that would be great for the thief and that would be great for the thief it would be really harmful for the store owner and so I think you know when we're talking about immoral actions we're talking about a zero-sum game or worse where one person's gain is another person's loss and the society as a whole doesn't benefit even just that like a theory of large numbers it's not gonna last you know I you know I've had this question put to me to by some Christian podcasters this year and they said you know they asked me you know we don't why would I do a year without God why not do a year without morality or a year without a year of running a child slavering or something like that and and I said because I don't want to like I don't I don't want to do those things I don't want to hurt people I've never have wanted to hurt anyone I mean well there's been a few people [Music] monsters correct Paul what do paul Washer is one minute Paul I know that slick yes we've talked to him a few times on the show I don't think I know I probably listened to you guys for a couple years you might want to go back and hear the Matt slick episodes because there were one where he talked to me and two where he talked to Matt I think he has a question if I was able and this last question I don't know so much tell you guys if I was able to take every thought that you guys November had everything like an overhead and pumps it up onto a big screen TV for everyone to see would there not be a few of them that you thought maybe I should have thought that or that's embarrassing or that gives morality I know they're not there would be some things that embarrass me and some things that I'm really proud of just like everybody but doesn't that say to you there's at least some element of immorality and everybody oh yeah we're bad so absolutely yeah definitely I mean I think we have a long way from total depravity though we are all complicated creatures full of desires and impulses a lot of times we are selfish and would like to do things that benefit us if we can get away with them but that is what the morality question is because you know the reason that this issue is so hotly debated by philosophers and theologians is because it's really complicated to set up a world where everyone can live as well as possible and not just have like one guy who's the Emperor who gets everything and screws over everybody else okay for you great nice talking to you take care you guys ever go back to watching your show over the webcast no yeah these buttons don't work at all today hang up on three and pick up four unless you would like to do an interlude and say anything else that's on your mind no I mean just that that comes up all the time yeah and I think there's two ways of talking about morality I mean I think sometimes where people I mean I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about these words objective and subjective I mean the minute you admit that there's like a subjective morality you know people want to sort of jump in there and say oh then it's just situational ethics like whatever you want to do you just do Christians seem to have a very All or Nothing mindset and and also they sometimes play fast and loose with the meanings of things like objective and subjective because you know they say well if everything if anything about morality is subjective then everybody can do whatever they want you know dogs and cats living together mass hysteria and they're really there is middle ground that we have to deal with and find all the time right I mean we're working it out I mean isn't that what I mean to me that's what democracy is about we're working out how to be successful human beings not just alone but in societies and groups of human beings and you know I can't just do whatever is best for me or whatever I think might be best for me because there's somebody living next door to me who may have something else to say about that and there's the person I earned my living from who has something to say about what I do with my time and you know there's we're all living in a complex web of relationships and it's that web of relationships that helps us figure out how we you know if you're the last man on earth then you can make up whatever you want I suppose but right because as long as it's not hurting somebody else outside yourself there is not a that need for a moral system yeah okay line four hello Bob in flora hi hi hi how are you good how are you doing well good well I first of all I want to tell you guys I love your show Matt and Jeff I especially appreciate Jeff I love it when people call in to praise other people on the show I just want to mention a lot of people ask on a regular basis where has Jeff been and I feel like I can't answer this often enough he has taken an indefinite leave from the show to have more time to himself but I mentioned the nonprofit's at the beginning of every episode and he is on pretty much every episode of the nonprofit's so if you are not subscribed to that podcast do it today good anyway I just wanted to share with you my experience I would for my early age I was exposed to Christian Science and I was I won't again after a while exposed to that I thought they were this far away from science as you can get and and when I decided that I was going to become a doctor they attacked me and said no he can't do that because it's not it's not the right thing to do and that's when I first got the inclination that this was bullshit and so anyway I I just I mean I want to make a point about something the previous caller said which is that here is an example where people believe things for religious reasons but it's actually harmful I mean people do people do die because they have Christian Science beliefs and will not be allowed to go to a medical professional and it will take their kids to a medical yeah that's even worse because they're not making the decision and it's an indisputable fact that medical technology has greatly increased the life span and quality of life of people around the world and so even if you did believe that there was an objective morality don't delegate that to religion because they certainly haven't got it no and and and so I I went ahead and went into pre-med and then I discovered after a while that I didn't have the passion for it and but I had discover that and in fact I had taken a job in a hospital and and to try and see if I really would yes and what happened was that I ran into while I was working in the hospital I ran into a member of the Christian Science church who was in the hospital and I said what are you doing here he just always bullshit so anyway but I I guess eventually dropped out of premed and I all have always said that there are a lot of people are walking around today a lie because I dropped out of premed herded the point I was making earlier that my brother has has become this Lonnegan Christian it just drives me crazy and finally I said to him I have a better idea why don't you grow up and and Egypt off on me caught by surprise and and the whole thing is that I have a suspicion and I if you ever pursue this program I may have said he has got gay tendencies and eat at him for years and and and the reason he has latched on to religious crap is because he's afraid of going to hell okay and and and I just feel sorry for it yep well we're sorry too and and it's anyway oh one other thing hi Mike Rowe daughter this is the last thing then we got to move on all right my granddaughter and was it was explained to her recently what the whole thing about Jesus and the virgin birth and the whole nonsense was explained to her in detail and she looked at me and she says are you gotta be kidding that's very cute very her how old how light thank you okay bye that always reminds me of the South Park episode about Mormonism where we're at the end of the whole story Kyle is like so you actually all hear this story and you're still Mormons well I mean and here's that here's the thing about religion that I think is this collar line force gon hang up before it's got a dial tone go on yeah I think the this this caller sort of I think lifts up something interesting about the way religious beliefs operate in people's lives in that they there is a kind of self-deception going on with a lot of people like they'll say they believe things that they don't actually believe and the way that you know they don't actually believe them is that they act in ways that are contrary to those beliefs and they don't they pick and choose in ways that they don't even admit that they're picking and choosing and so you know people like a Christian Scientist who goes to the doctor and they're like wow you know I don't really believe that I I'm gonna die I'm gonna go to the hospital so I mean I think people have their beliefs and then those beliefs bump up against real life and real life experiences and and somehow our minds have the ability to compartmentalize between these things yeah definitely so lying to Dustin in Las Vegas hey guys what's going on not much how are you I'm good so I wanted to call in I I'm in a relationship with in the closet atheist and I am an atheist as well like this more relates to like my own personal experience with their parents and sort of well she goes to church with her parents in order to kind of you know make them happy and I just kind of you know because she lives under the roof and if they were to find out she would ultimately be kicked out how old is she she is 20 and I'm 21 okay so I was invited a couple times and for like a boardgame night and I can't fire to their church and some of the stuff that I was hearing you know was sort of like in favor of creationism and you know being gay is a choice and just sort of like these bigot things and I just I I wanted to respond but I kind of kept quiet and um my question is like huh how do you deal with those types of situations because I mean I you know it's I feel like I have like a responsibility to say something but at the same time I can't you know cause a fuss but I don't know what what do you guys think about that you're looking at me so I'm gonna I'll jump in later okay for you go first um you've got a really complicated situation here yeah let me see if I can outline all the different relationships I mean first of all you are basically an open and intellectually honest atheist from what I'm hearing right right and it is uncomfortable for you to lie about or disguise your points of view but you've I'm guessing you haven't said anything to her parents yet well I think they are under the impression that I'm an atheist and she normally my advice to people and this is terrible advice because again I am coming from background of a loving atheist family but my usual advice for people who are old enough to stand on their own is that you should stand up for what you believe in being out a theist because it helps all the other atheists out there yeah but we also advise people generally don't do things that are risky and dangerous to your well-being whether it's your you know financial survival or your actual survival if you're getting kicked out and being made homeless which can happen to people right so your so your girlfriend is fine being tied to a situation where she has to stay closeted yeah we were fine being an open atheist but then the two of you have some sort of an obligation to make each other happy while you're together and you can't be upfront about what you think without threatening your girlfriends living situation yes that's exactly the situation so yeah I mean your your choices are - I mean I guess I'm not being that helpful but I'm just gonna outline that the possibilities are you avoid her parents completely well that's not really an option because she lives with them right although you know you could say I'm not gonna spend time with you well you're at your parents place you can come to my place or we can go out to dinner or whatever but I can't have that burden or you can hang around them and hide your beliefs or you can hang around them and be upfront about your beliefs which could lead to some fighting right like I feel like dealing with family is not the time to get in these deep philosophical arguments because that cover because that makes your interpersonal relationships problematic so when it comes to my in-laws for instance I just at some point set some boundaries and said look I have really good reasons for being an atheist but I'm not going to discuss them with you anymore right that's that's kind of the route that I have taken because I'm I'm like you that I was you know raised in like a an atheistic background I was never religious so I guess maybe at this situation there's just it's hard for me to relate to people who have been in churches and you know in that sort of environment so it I guess me being open is not the best you know option so I mean to me it's it's also like you know it's it's just it's uncomfortable for me sort of like it would be uncomfortable sitting around while a group of my acquaintances are making racist jokes and yeah and I'm just like you know like I I can't not say something I'm like guys that's not cool like why you you know why are you making those jokes and I so I think to me there's no good long-term way to hide who you are I mean I think we you probably agree with me that sooner or later it's gonna come out that the girlfriend is an atheist right yeah you have to do that in her own way and in her own time yeah you can't really force it but she also has to maintain her relationship with her family and if you're in a long-term relationship with her they're your family too in a way so you're gonna have to continually be in their presence and I always think it really depends look who's gonna be the the more mature person here and unfortunately it probably is gonna have to be you and there they might come after you about things or try to witness to you and to me my family does that I just have to sort of politely smile and say you know thanks grandma for praying for me because I she says I'm gonna pray for you and what I hear is I love you right yeah and that's I think that's the way I hear is she praying for me because she cares about me and she loves me if I allow myself to interpret that in a in a really harsh way she doesn't first of all she doesn't mean it that way she really genuinely cares about me and so I'm always translating what my family is saying to me into into language that I I that I think communicates what they mean rather than what they're actually saying yeah so I mean I think she's gonna have to come out eventually to her folks when she feels like she doesn't have to live with them financially if when she has the freedom to either you know live with you or live somewhere else oh I'd amend what you said about how they're ultimately your family too and the the actual reality Kenson can be you know only to the extent that she wants them to be because there are some people who just make a clean break from their family that's decide once they've moved out you know these people haven't really got a lot to offer me and it's stressful to be around them I mean that's not ideal as people want to make I mean I think people in general want to have a relationship with their families I mean that's uh you know you're stuck with them like they're they're your blood and if you know if all things being equal we'd like to be in relationship with our families so that would be the ideal outcome is that they could learn to accept where she's at it a lot of times fair I've talked to gay and lesbian people Christians about this too they're afraid to come out to their family they're afraid they'll be disowned by their family and by and large their family is like shocked disappointed sad but ultimately says I love you no matter what and we'll get through this which may not be the answer that you're looking for you probably the person would be looking for an answer more like oh that's great no big deal you know I wish you'd told us sooner you know that's not always the answer you're going to get by a lot of times families surprise their kids you know the kids think it's gonna be this horrible thing and and the mom will say oh I already knew that you know yeah so that's what I think too and I think that it might not be as bad as it seems yeah I try and uh well I'm gonna I'm gonna wish you luck and move it along but you know drop us an email and let us know if anything happens for sure okay all right thank you thanks bye we're gonna add we're gonna take our last call and that is line for Barnard in Canada Bernard Bernard can you hear us yes hello hello yeah hello hi how's it going good that's good that's good I should warn you we have like three minutes left till the end of the show and I'm sorry for taking you so late oh yeah no that's all good that's all good I always have a question for Ryan Bell mm-hmm I was listening to the show and I read the beginning he was saying something about he has atheist arguments or unity device when you went from Christian to atheism and I would be really interested interested in what the atheist argument actually is for the God doesn't exist uh oh yeah sure sure therefore no God argument yeah I'd love to hear that one I mean I mean there are a variety of ways to go at that the one I think I was talking about at the top of the show was probably more like the anthropological argument that that human societies have invented gods throughout its our history and your you're certain that God was invented or you're just certain that some gods were invented and then you just assume all of them were no I'm not certain of much of anything actually hey so your folks again okay so you're not certain for your atheist argument no no I think that the evidence finding an argument does not imply absolute certainty I mean there are no any epic arguments that come up all the time that support things I don't know any atheist that are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt course III don't either I'd only met agnostic atheists but I'm just wondering so you but you said you were doing you and Christian to atheism you said you had atheist arguments right that's what you said and then your atheists are reasonable like do you have any arguments that end up with therefore no God like but then you say no so what was your argument actually or what was your why what convinced you that atheism is true I think it was more like I ran out of reasons why Christianity was true okay so you're just kind of fell back into a fee of them is what you're saying I mean I think it's a kind of default position sure like I think that we as human beings tend to sort of stake our lives on things we can observe and test and know with some reasonable amount of surety and I think I was what I did was I realized that Christianity was the canvas that I was given as a child and I was told you can paint on this canvas and I did that for a while and then I realized that there's a wider world out there there's more there's more a bigger picture to see not just the one I was good I'm sorry we're out of time we're gonna have to put you on hold well the credits are up and that's our show you can stay on the line we'll talk to you a little more after the show but anyway thank you for tuning in we are going to head for Elroy oh and thanks Ryan bail you've been a great guest thanks for having me [Applause] you

Info

Channel: The Atheist Experience

Views: 72,622

Rating: 4.8310375 out of 5

Keywords: atheist experience, the atheist experience, theatheistexperience, atheist, atheism, atheist vs christian, atheist debate, religion debate, atheism debate, Matt Dillahunty (Broadcast Artist), belief, faith, reason, rational, proof, evidence, logic, fallacy, religion, religious, science, secular, Skepticism, skeptic, questioning god, doubt, is god real, agnostic, agnosticism, evidence for god, Christianity, Islam, morality, evidence for jesus, Jesus, Jesus Christ, debate, Bible, Bible contradictions

Id: VwhM5ctKV7c

Channel Id: undefined

Length: 58min 30sec (3510 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 11 2015

Reddit Comments

great show, very genuine. Happy for Ryan

👍︎︎ 2 👤︎︎ u/damianhk 📅︎︎ Mar 13 2015 🗫︎ replies