Art Cafe #122 - Artists Need to Learn Business - with Maxx Burman

yeah it only takes one or two really bad client jobs before you go I wish I could say no to these jobs you know what screw it let me read the contract let me let me go and get this [ __ ] set up and like it seems like a mountain of a task it's really not you know getting a bookkeeper you know it's it's gonna cost you a couple hundred bucks a year they're gonna tell you our thanks you're gonna have it handled for you to your personal get us is okay it'll pay for itself like don't use TurboTax go and hire an accountant and the tax return alone will cover their cost and you'll make more money which means you can say no to the next job that isn't exciting to you yeah exactly he's an artist art director and co-founder of kit Bosch 3d his work can be seen in movies such as Iron Man 3 Godzilla and Maleficent please meet max Berman in this episode we spoke about his work career and importance of understanding business as an artist I hope you'll have as much fun as I did let's go [Music] [Music] [Music] yeah I haven't had my coffee yet so hopefully I'm not gonna sound too tired dude I wake up early for me he does that that just shows how much love there is oh yeah it's all it's all for that you know it's all for that podcast money that I'm not making at all did we meet at the mixer yeah lightbox yeah dude there was so many people I can't even remember who was there was a crazy night it was crazy night we're actually planning to do it this year but obviously it's not gonna happen yeah it's kind of bummer I don't know if you saw but lightbox has been moved online basically so yeah all of it is kind of gone it's I guess I understand it but yeah it's kind of crazy yeah you know it's it's really not seeing how people are transitioning to that especially the events like I think we lightbox is going to do something amazing online we just did the playgrounds festival online knows that there's such top-notch production like and they really made it feel like a live event and I think doing things like not recording those shows so that you have to be there oh yeah and having a bunch of things happening at the same time so it feels like you're jumping from you know room to room definitely they're finding new ways of like capturing the excitement of being at one of those festivals got it got it yeah I haven't I mean I've seen some artists doing that I haven't checked it myself so I don't know what the experience is you know but I would think you know obviously obviously having an experience well having any experience is good right instead of just being bored at home but man like I'm a super recluse person generally speaking you know like I don't I don't come out too but I'm missing it I'm missing like hanging out with people already I mean it's fixed are changing you know things are opening up so obviously hopefully it's gonna it's gonna get better over time so yeah nadia is one of the the hardest things for me I mean we spend so much time on the road and I'm so used to jumping on airplanes every month and being stuck in one place is I'm just getting a little itchy is it work travel for you mostly or or like you know leisure yeah it's weird because those two lines kind of blend together but but most of the time we're going somewhere with a with an objective we have a goal we have a meeting we have a you know a top to get or a studio to sit down with yeah yeah that makes sense yeah like it's it's for artists is great because like if you want to travel it's so much easier to sort of like combine the two were like hey I'm going for a convention and then from there I am also gonna enjoy a little bit of you know the environment I'm in so it's like it's like the best of both worlds basically speaking you know yeah it's interesting I don't know like this this whole thing with with current situation like it didn't change literally anything to me apart from like oh I can't I'm not going out but now I cannot go out like yeah but now I'm kind of over it I'll be honest with you it's like I think it's I think there's there's some restrictions now that they just make no sense you know it's not a lot of it is not clear a lot of is like scattered all around seems like a power play a lot of times I don't know so it's it's that rebellion in here like you don't really want to go outside until they tell you right yeah exactly that's all you want to do I mean what else is what else is going on at your end by the way like we've we've met at lightbox I was like it's the last time we went in person we've been bouncing around and chat every now and then but you know it's nice to catch up but apart from like how you're holding up with this situation like how is how is how is your business changing because of it because like I remember you and your partner like you guys are basically working in the studio all the time right let's maybe talk about you know what do you do I mean a lot of people already who are listening to this already know who you are I'm pretty sure but obviously there's always like lost souls like who is this handsome guy you know sure this may be good that this may be get that out of the way yeah so uh I mean right now I own a company called git bash 3d so we make 3d assets and provide those two studios and artists and prior to that I was a matte painter and an art director for over a decade and film and video games yeah this transition honestly I think it's it's you know mentally challenging for our team but in terms of logistics we luckily were kind of set up for this when we started our company we set up this structure to be able to work with the best artists all over the world regardless of where they are which meant finding ways to do that in terms of how do we organize how do we communicate how do we share files how do we do all of this stuff with a very international team so we still had our LA office that we would go into work and every day but most people in that office for running teams of people all over the world so when we had to transition from home it was pretty seamless we were up and running in about a day right which you know God thank God for that I know a lot of people have had a lot tougher time with their transition but honestly things have have been pretty good we've we've been trying to figure out new ways of like how do we still have a company culture when we don't go into an office every day how do we make it so it doesn't seem like you're on video chats for 10 hours a day non-stop and that's all you're doing I mean that's my job to do that but let's make sure that other people don't feel that way that they still have the time and space to actually sit down and do the work yeah you know the funny thing about this whole thing is a lot of companies are realizing that they don't need offices in order to do really productive work especially like Silicon Valley company I think I saw a news you know about Facebook allowing pretty much anyone who is working from home if they want to work from home they can work from home forever um I think it was similar with Twitter there's a lot of companies that are in Silicon Valley you know San Francisco Palo Alto all of those areas looking at those offices that they have ten thousand twenty thousand square feet offices that cost obnoxious amount of money and then looking at the work force that they have that is performing as good as they were performing in the offices you know the only difference like oh they don't get that you know gourmet morning coffee and bean bags as a perk working the company you know but on the other hand they don't have to commute and we can work from home yeah yeah we're actually we gave up our office last week list like when we are at least was up for renewal and we said you know we don't know when we're gonna be back in there yeah it makes no sense now and I think you know there's there's so many new paradigm shifts that you kind of can make it up as you go right now there is no standard right what we've decided to do at least for now is that we're gonna all work from home but once a quarter we're gonna take the company at least like the LA office or the California people and go get a house somewhere cool and do a complete retreat every quarter and that's I'm sure that we can all get in the same room we can have some time to like plan what's going on in the next quarter but also like start to get some of that company culture back right you know whether or not that's just taking a hike or renting some dune buggies or whatever it is but let's let's enjoy each other's company and you know get together but we can do that once or twice a quarter and still be you know breaking even on what we would have spent on rent that whole time at a price right right how many people work with you guys at the kid bash right now we're about 40 people yeah yeah so and it's been it's been growing pretty steadily this this year's been growing a little faster you know that said that's a lot of freelancers and contractors and stuff like that and then in our LA office the core team of people kind of running departments is about 10 nice nice so it grew like I remember when we get you guys were starting and doing the festival back in the days three of us in bankses garage exactly Eubanks and then who else was there and Chris yeah well it's good to hear because you guys are producing really awesome stuff so where did the whole idea for kid bash 3d came came from I mean obviously kid bashing is sort of like anyone almost everyone knows what kid bashing is but just for a sake of visibility let's say like let's let's go over let's go over that word idea I came from and obviously what kid bashing is is a lost soul who doesn't know what compassion is yeah keep bashing is an old term from the miniatures and model making days and the idea is you'd go to one of those model shops and get like a model car that you would reassemble or a model plane and you take these different model kits and you'd bash them together to create something new laughs and so this was a technique that they used for things like Star Wars when they were creating spaceships they could go out to the bottle shop get a bunch of cars or jets and they you know glue it all together to create something crazy and that would be a spaceship so that's kind of the genesis of it we started kid bashing 2017 at first just greedily I was doing map hearings all the time I wanted to use 3d and I would hire modelers to just like build stuff I need so I could quickly do concepts or map paintings right and then thought you know let's just build me one perfect gothic castle kit because I'm doing so many castles right now let me just defend these and then thought you know what if we just started producing these and releasing them and making sure that they were super high quality rather than just the open market places where you never know what you're gonna get and maybe we could just sell enough of these to be able to build another one because I just wanted a library for myself right and yeah luckily you know that was kind of a goal for the first couple months was just like can enough people buy this so we can build one more and then luckily you know we we've stayed pretty consistent about releasing a new kit every month now sometimes we released two kits a month and we're making that more and more regular so yeah that's kind of the spark of inspiration or the idea behind it interesting yeah I mean that's what most people do when you when you work when you work as a guest map painter or it's a concept artist most of the artists that I know that work on like high-end projects on the high level they they do either use kid bash 3d or through both squid you know or like CG trader there's just like yeah there's there's certain things that you just don't want to spend time building over and over and over when you can get like model and then get that problem sorted you know I think that also that raised our ambitions with it because when you're learning a new software or if you've never touched 3d or concept art before and you're trying to enter in for the first time it is massively overwhelming yeah just even opening up a 3d software for the first time it's just like what the hell is this yeah and you know really I think that the the hard part about it is the feedback loop is so long from the time when you start attempting to make something - when you actually get an image that you can feel good about that my days that might be weeks but if we can take out the the modeling process you being texturing and shading and just give you what you need to start to play with it almost like Legos we start to shorten that loop and get people in the game a lot faster and hopefully make it easy enough you don't for us now this goal is is how do we make building a digital world as easy and ubiquitous as building a website and just tackling it one technical barrier at a time yeah it's it's I've been having I mean I've been kid bashing 3d models into my work pretty much ever since I started working with 3d because it's like again why would you build something that you would need all the time and it's just taking time it's not necessarily an essence of what you're working on right so if you're doing an environment concept and you know like the goal is to design the cool look of let's say a building or something or let's say you're doing a landscape right and you are sort of like designing interesting shapes of rocks and maybe you know formations that are basically describing the environment but you still need like everything else like you still need still need the ground you still need textures you can still need plants and stuff like that you obviously can spend time painting it or you know doing it in 3d or you can just buy a model for cheap and put it out like all over the place and it's just replacing so much work that you would have to do otherwise right when did you start using 3d in your process I think the first time I used 3d was 2012 mm-hmm yeah I think 2012 was the first time I actually used 3d but I did remember using game engines as a base hmm back in 2007 when I was with Crytek oh wow oh yeah great that makes sense yeah yeah yeah because I remember I mean like when we were releasing crisis the first one it was me and maybe one more guy who were working on the screenshots you know back back in those days I mean right now the games Fidelity's are so good that there's literally nothing to work on you just take a screenshot and release it most the time I mean people still do touch-ups you know sure it's just just normal but back in those days like we were just like oh like I mean the game looks like that but then like there's something like broken UVs and missing models and stuff like that when you want to release the game lucky or like when you want to promote the game be like a year before it's released so we were just like build scene in the engine and you know like basically kid bash the models that were available that were made in the game already by the artists and in the office and like set up fighting and you know Sparks and effects everywhere it was all staged right sure but but that's how you would do screenshots back then you know I remember where they just shot I was doing a couple gameplay footage trailers back in that time I think that the last one that I remember doing this for was army of two and I remembered they they had all the gameplay and they were supposed to only show gameplay and then they hired a visual effects studio to like make the gameplay look good and I remember doing paintings on it and they were like you know it has to look better than this but it can't look like cinematic you know like where's the rival ground so silly and so much compositing work to try to like fix the you know pre-treating or the polygons that were like intersecting and someone running through a wall and they were like a comp that out right yeah what is your take on this cuz like now it's the less prevalent but back in the days like it was just notorious yeah that studios would basically let's just make this demo look absolutely banger and then people buy the game it's like what is this [ __ ] yeah I mean I think it's it's such a tough thing because also like a video game in motion versus a video game still image is a very different oh yeah and a little motion blur does like amazing things to make you forget about everything also the sound design the music there's everything yeah everything kind of brings you into the world where you don't notice the like little clipping polygons in the corner but if it's still image that's all you have to look at so you're gonna find all of those things so I don't know that's it's like what's the integrity of marketing right and I think that's like a way bigger philosophical question but I think that at the end of the day the goal of marketing is to connect a wonderful product with someone who will love it and there's so many tactics to do that but at the end of the day like if you fix up a gameplay footage is that really changing it is it is it a lie but or is it you know showing it in its best light I don't know that's where you get into the gray ethical dilemma of the whole thing and right I think it's kind of a case-by-case basis there were some questionable games that were released we all saw the e3 trailers and and then people buying in games like what am i what am i playing like it looks nothing like the like the trailer you know talking that's that's where it crosses the line you know yeah that's false advertising when you're just yeah lately like the game does not look like that and it will never look like that it's just a little staged yeah yeah touching it up you know it's like when you take a picture of a coca-cola bottle for an ad and you have like the the dripping condensation you're like you know I mean it's not gonna happen like you shown it in its best light you're making it you're making the burger look juicy right like those her picture it's like oh it looks so taste and you get this what go to the story it's like what is this like it doesn't look like on the photo what did I order yeah that's where like that's where it for me it crosses the line like yeah false advertising is is not good ever like overselling in general I feel like well here's the problem like when you are when you have a business like obviously there's there's different ways you run the business right there's a way where you are trying to focus on sales and and build the company for volume and stuff like that right and then there is a there's a there's an approach where you focus on the quality of the of the product you're making and then hoping that that's gonna be enough to basically capture your core audience and make them to be your advert advertiser advertisers core quote unquote right losing my language here what's going on but yeah I feel like over selling is the worst because like you're basically presenting something that doesn't exist or it looks in the best light and it's like so oversaturated in the way that it would never look like that in the in reality and so like you're creating a disappointment for for your audience and and basically losing them for whatever next you produce right totally I think this is why marketing has a bad rap is because there's a lot of negative connotations around like right it's advertising these sorts of things I think this is one of the reasons I love business is because it has so many different facets to it and there's actually a lot of creativity but there's also I feel like there's there's a lot of a lot of ways to improve in so many different areas that I think we have opportunities now that we can create businesses that don't fall under these traps right because when when we look at that you're right retention right and it's creating a magic moment you know if you sell someone on a product and you false advertise and then they open the box and they don't they're not seeing what they bought they're not going to come back and purchase again so you just made a short-term play short-term gain long-term loss all right now on the other end of it if when they open that box that's better than they expected then they have a magic moment you know that's like creating delight for them and then they are that that creates like such an emotional impact that then they start to become loyal to that brand all right I look forward to what's the next box I'm gonna get from them and open it because I know I'm gonna be delighted and I'm gonna be surprised and I don't know how and I think you know if marketing can take the the long game approach of this rather than just the short sale and see sales is not the end goal here but sale sales and revenue are the fuel or the gasoline in your car and sometimes you have to stop and pull over to a gas station but that's not the road that you're on and that's not the end destination yeah that's just fueling you so that you can actually carry out the mission of the company yeah I had a point to what you said about like you know opening the box and being disappointed like it can work if the thing you're opening is delicious like pack of chips yeah like [ __ ] that was I was supposed to get a full pack I got a half I like half of it it's just air but damn it's delicious yeah Pringles you're like I know what I'm gonna get with Pringles Pringles are gonna be delicious it's gonna be stacked to the top you know that's a safe choice I know that if I if I'm in question I'm gonna go for the Pringles yeah yeah I don't dude what is the last time you actually ate Pringles I just last week that's okay all right taking back I haven't eat Pringles in like a year or two maybe quarantine has been been bad for the snack attacks oh yeah it's terrible like just getting a staying healthy and wise is it's almost impossible yeah it's almost impossible hook and non stop which means we have the chance to make healthier meals but then that also means we're getting so many groceries that we're just gonna grab more snacks too so it's a you know double-edged sword when you started when you guys started kid bash was it like the first time experience for you for for running a business now you had businesses before kid bash was our third company okay or yeah thanks a nice second company my third company and banks what was what companies you guys had before you and banks and yours yours before that yeah I owned a visual effects studio called skyward for two years okay that was one of the most difficult and biggest learning experiences of my life and you know two years in we had great projects a great team we did Game of Thrones we did League of Legends we did a ton of you know big projects and could not make a profit just could not and after two years of the effects in the nutshell basically right exactly and I don't understand why because I didn't know anything about business and finally when we we shut the doors of that studio I went and joined elastic as an art director there and I spent all of my time reading business books just trying to understand what the [ __ ] happened right and then really started to learn learn business learn marketing learn business models and strategy and profits and all these different things and realize that like oh it wasn't that I mean no I didn't operate the business well but also this is a broken the industry and the margins are too low to actually sustain and I realized that the longer I spent in Visual Effects that it was only going to get worse and I needed to get out of visual effects and figure out a way out not now that said there's great VFX Studios out there and there's people who can operate them really well but it's a very difficult game and it was not something I was capable of yeah and reunited with banks and started talking about where we saw the future where we saw things going I had been working on a little video game on my own and so we decided to start a publishing company called we are fuzzy and that we are fuzzy and what a great name yeah we we put out a game with Nintendo actually fuzzy is still around and we still have our team there and we're doing really it's now like our fun creative incubator so we have a film and a TV show going there a comic book going actually the video game we released with Nintendo is being made into a film so fuzzy nice he is still still around and still doing well but kid passion kind of came out of fuzzy as like a side project our videogame got delayed for six months and we thought well what are we going to do we built a marketing team we want to keep them busy and I had this kid Bosch ID I said why don't we just do that and maybe it'll bring in enough work to keep our marketing team busy alright and then kid that's just you know became its own its own thing so yeah I think you know there's there's no way we could run git bash the way we do if it was banks a nice first company I think we we had to get a lot of gut punches and learn a lot of hard it's difficult man like I remember when we started learn squirt and we're we're had no idea what the [ __ ] were doing like literally no idea none of us have any experience in business none of us ever run the company before none of us I think none of us ever worked as a business owner or hired people before either you know you guys are fast that I mean you guys did a wonderful job with mine squared oh I went from you went through some [ __ ] dude so many so many realization moments where you look at what you're doing is like oh this makes no sense this is no way we can sustain doing it that way like yeah it's like the first the first time the first time you make money and you realize you have to pay taxes you know that kind of that kind of realizations you know it's very interesting it it's definitely a teach it's it's a lesson for sure you know your story with with banks and how you started kid Bosch kinda reminds me art station the way they started art station you know yeah yeah leo and yeah ballistic ballistic for those who don't know is basically how to put it it's like a web design company basically right they build they build platforms basically for for bigger companies they build basically gnomon School platform yeah and Blizzard stuff like Blizzard yeah explicit but a ton of those video game platform websites yep yep it's primarily like development platform for like web sites and and art station was like a side fun project for them you know like hey let's start you know there is a CG hub out there like and let's start let's start a cult like this let's build something similar and see where it goes and was like an invite-only back then you remember that oh yeah yeah and I'd only cghub days what a yeah that was my go-to place and then it finally uh went away finally went away but I remember you know I was talking to I mean I had leo lyon RTO on on the podcast we talked about it and it was basically overnights which you know when when CGHUB went down and then you know everyone's like where's the next place I think shadi and a bunch of people called the Oh like you guys have to open up for everyone now if you don't if you don't do that they're gonna go to like other places you know yeah and they did it they did it well and now they're like the biggest yeah the biggest yeah do you remember back in before art station days that dominance war challenges oh yeah yeah yeah when they ran over those different websites competing against each other I just I was interested I mean I follow that briefly I remember seeing the the submission there's some some crazy submissions going on yeah I feel like the art station challenges have kind of taken the place of that by mmm it was such a cool thing for those of you who didn't see it they would do these character design challenges and it was like who can make the most badass looking character yeah but back then there was everyone was kind of split amongst CG Society polycount cghub like there are four or five different forums and websites right basically each former website had its own colors and badge and so you would create the like army that represented your website that you interacted with or your community and it was just so cool to see how people came together in that of like feeling pride with the the website that they posted to but like right to the point where they were creating their their their soldiers for that was one of the coolest things and I love that idea of like when people really feel ownership over a community yeah that was such a different time though like I don't I mean those communities communities are still here you still have poly cow and you still have you know ZBrush central and whatnot but I don't think it's the same anymore nothing it's with social media presence it's it became sort of like oh it's it's a place to go but not necessarily to visit you know yeah yeah yeah that was also before there were any resources to like learn this stuff like listen around nomen was still like no man online wasn't out yet so you kind of had to be on these places to just figure out what the hell was going on or how do ya one day they all started for you like when did you get your feet wet with with CG I started on those forums entering challenges when I was 13 or 14 years old and yeah by the time I was like 16 I was like winning challenges and from that I got a scholarship to Otis art school whatever was that that was in 2006 yeah 2005-2006 okay and then two years later I got my first job in visual effects when I was 18 and that that was it that was that was all I wanted to do and just got out of high school and started working right away and yeah that's interesting yeah you've been you've been doing those challenges and stuff when I was already in the industry for a while so you're younger than me I'm an old an old book I'm waiting for my salt and pepper to come in yeah it's growing and eventually I'm all salty and peppery this is what this is what happens when you work as a CG artist for like I said as an artist in the industry you get grey do people know you're actually 25 that's just that's a whole rough projects look like I wish I was 25 did I wish I really wish that time is flying so fast it's unbelievable Stein it's it's flying so fast I had a I did my hair cut with my barber that I go to all the time and you know I think he was his dad or grandpa grandfather who told him like you know the way the speed of which time flies it's like think about years as being a speedometer mmm like one it's like it's crawling when you're like 10 it's like okay it's kind of getting fast when it's 20 all right this is like mm-hm okay when it's 40 it's like okay we're going you know and it really feels like that I remember when I was like younger it they feel it felt like it's the the you know the summertime takes forever or getting to a summer time was like oh my god when it's once the summer again and now it's like wait summer was last year it's already summer already yeah you know it's crazy flying especially it I feel like I'm when you're excited about what you do and you get into that flow state then like days disappear like it's it's crazy that it's like what is it Wednesday today it feels I don't even know it just goes by way too fast but I feel like I much prefer it that way then Mike you know I've had jobs where I stared at the clock and five minutes before seven o'clock was the longest five minutes of my life that can happen - yeah different sides of the coin but I feel like if you're excited about what you're doing time moves especially quick that's true yeah I think once you're in that flow state you cannot control the time and then you're like five hours in it's like 3:00 at 3:00 a.m. in the morning okay where did the time go yeah yeah I love that when that happens I love it like when do we have that in uninterrupted you know sort of like a moment of complete focus and you're like engaged with what you're doing and forgetting about the whole world that's the I think that's the goal you know that yeah the the goal of I think all of us is to find that place that intersection where you know we're being challenged just enough that we feel like we really have to work for it and our skills match the challenge that we feel like we're succeeding and you get that perfect balance there and time just goes away because you're you're acting on intuition not on on logic it kind of just that's that flow State it's a really beautiful thing do you ever feel that with business though like or it's only art for you totally totally with business it actually makes me feel more alive than when art does these days which is why I spend so much more of my time on it I still you know I try to do some paintings a year I still take a couple client gigs just to not lose my skills but right you know business is it's a thinking game it's that it's it's just I don't know how to describe it by it's very similar to art I guess in the sense that like there are constraints and the constraints are just guides and understanding how to use them and where I make them and it's that most creative part I think of a painting for me because most of painting for me is execution that creativity is only like the first 10% or even the last 10% of like let me add a little details and happy accidents yeah but like that 80% in the middle is just like pure execution and I feel like that's that's just not as inspiring or creative for me these days yeah the the idea of like sitting down and basically repeating everything have you done so far over and over and over and over and over and over is like yeah it's can be can be grueling and and not not get you excited sure and I'm sure like I'm sure you've done an ungodly amount of paintings so I've I and it's at this point most things that people ask me to do I've already done five to ten times before yeah exactly very rarely do I get asked to do a painting that I haven't that I don't have an entire folder of paintings I've done already that could work perfectly for what they're asking so it's I don't know it's tough for me too every once while a project comes along where I'm like okay that that seems new and cool and you know I spend a week doing that but far and few between it's very interesting because like as you said most of the time when clients reach out after you get enough experience all of it is the same all of it like oh here's here's Blade Runner okay like oh my god Blade Runner like you that's your first impression then you get to works like all right it's nice it's like a sci-fi movie that I'm designing I've done it like 100 times already you know yeah it really feels that way when you're starting out those big titles sounds super import and I think once you've worked on a lot of the big titles it's kind of like well no one [ __ ] remembers GI Joe in 2009 you know like that time on that was the biggest movie like super stoked to be on it or like right you know it Iron Man 3 is like I don't know the it's just number whatever on the Marvel lineup but at the time I was like I sacrificed everything for that movie yeah so I you know it it's still cool to work with with properties that you enjoy but I think after you get a couple of those under your belt that doesn't become the main appeal for me at least yeah and then you start to go well why do I want to do this project is it the creativity maybe this is something that's inspiring because something new it's a new challenge creatively after a while like you've done a couple thousand paintings like those become very hard to find and kind of what would it kind of ended out for me was like who am i working with on the day-to-day I like working with these people is it a fun time do I like this team and you know that's that's usually what I do during the years now like my project it's gonna be with someone who I enjoy working with and it's gonna be because they're working on it not because of the title attached or what they're actually asking for yeah yeah yeah the first time you when you when you look at the project you look at the property it's like oh my god like I always wanted to work on this right and you're excited two weeks in you realize that you're doing the same thing over and over and over and like [ __ ] alright what are we gonna do now and then yeah and then like that that excitement reignites after a while like maybe you get another assignment that you know that is that it's like more interesting that the ones you had before but wouldn't you agree like after after a while when you work with what are these Marvel Warner Brothers famous directors non famous directors whatever right after a while we realize you know what the best part about this is working with people and the project really doesn't matter because I you said like no one remembers GI Joe anymore nobody cares nobody cares complete you know what I mean and how many years has been like less than ten years since it was released right yeah nobody gives a [ __ ] anymore yeah because there is ten other movies that are coming out people give a [ __ ] about the stuff that's coming out as they are coming out and maybe a few months after unless it's like an iconic absolute iconic thing which almost never happens these days completely yeah it's leading up to release people Caroline yeah once the movie comes out it's kind of over those iconic films you can't choose them either you know you can try yeah you do you're never gonna pick the right one because it's so the iconic films are the ones you never think of and you don't see coming and it's that's I feel like that's just luck at that point I you know there's skill but but the the amount of things that have to go right for a film to hit at the right time to have the right message for the world to want to receive it to have the you know the the chances that they take to stand out the right to execute it it's it's such a perfect storm of things that you know you can keep betting on them it's very hard to choose them what is the last like on anything you've seen in like movie industry or games industry like the one that you know you're gonna talk about like ten years from now mm-hm yeah I think in the in the games industry for me was journey is the last one that like I will the last super iconic for what for me that I will talk about for right but what about I this is a subjective question obviously because like we all have preferences but I'm also trying to figure out like do you see those properties that come up that not only you like and you think are iconic but are in and honestly anonymously thought that this is wow like and I'll talk about as years from that yeah I mean it's when you think about those the ones that are gonna like transcend time you look at like the ones of the past before our lifetimes that transcended yeah and you only see any of them like now yeah things like gone with the wind Cleopatra right you know like those are the ones that transcended time and and when you think about like what are the ones in in our lifetime that that have done that it's hard because there's so much noise that I feel like we've not even given this space for something to to fully blossom until it's you know crushed by so much more noise right is there something that you think bike in the last decade that is gonna stand stand the test of time I don't know I I don't know I used to think the last of us would be like oh my god that's that's gonna like stay stay out there for a long time and that was like a random thing to like I was not expecting the the success that the car that that the project would get I knew it's gonna be a good game when I joined the studio because obviously Naughty Dog right yeah but I've never expected that is gonna get some so much attention and it's gonna create so much noise but I don't think it's on the level of when I look back at the 80s I think the eight is the 80s and maybe early 90s it's the last time we actually had like super iconic things that that basically spread like like wildfire and persisted you know through through time and we were still maybe or maybe we're older and we're still talking about while kids don't give a [ __ ] you know that's what's happening that's what I'm realizing it's happening because like and I had this conversation with James Klein recently because you know he's been working in the industry for a long time and you know back in the days like you you would have in order to - to see what movies are out there you know like hey like what is the new movie you would get like a newspaper snippet saying like this is the movie with this actor and you would not see a trailer you wouldn't know what the movie is about you only see a cover yeah like literally that right and if you went to to the theater and saw a movie you might have seen the trailer for what's next we're like what are the upcoming movies perhaps but you wouldn't see any of that anywhere else so I think that alone created this mystique about actors or like famous actors like Stallone and you know Van Damme like I'm talking martial arts movies action movies or Schwarzenegger right you would have you would understand who they are because you would seen them on the covers only and that was the only way to like see the movies that they made like oh there's a new movie coming out cuz I saw the cover and that movie might have come out like a month ago sure and you would get that VHS like oh my god I've never seen this before and that's been like a in circulation for like a year yeah but yeah it wasn't like you had a library where he could check what boobies came out yeah now everything is like that right like you go online and check what the mood what's this what's the lineup for next 20 years let's go let's go you know yeah and there was something special about choosing a movie for the night like you going to a blockbuster or wherever and you would walk through the aisles and you'd be like this is the one this is yeah we're making an event around this movie we can get some popcorn out we're gonna you know turn off the lights and watch it and now it's just like I'm 10 minutes into this Netflix oh I'm not really feeling it let me jump to the next one it's just there's yeah less weight put on it same with video games right like we remember video games some some of the video games specifically like Mortal Kombat and Prince of Persia mostly because how groundbreaking they were for the time that they were in you know now can you point any game that is like literally brought groundbreaking like know every every single game released this like this and next year not every single but most of the top games that are released this and next year the only differences are okay this game has a little bit of story a little better acting maybe a little bit of graphics just just a little bit better yeah but vastly better just a little bit better and you look at the amount of games I think it was in 2008 there were 600 video games released and last year there were 10 2002 video games released now there you go and you just I mean the quantity there's something to be said about that though because there's you start to look at videos and and start to take into account YouTube yeah billions of videos out there and there's just this kind of mass democratization of content which means there are things that are personalized to you that are meant for a smaller audience and it means that there's it's harder and there's less of those massive tent poles that are just a pillar of entertainment for yes amount of people I think video games is following that trajectory and hopefully this this video game world becomes a little less I don't know how do we get triple-a into the the quantity of YouTube and is that a good idea or a bad idea I don't know but I don't know I like to think that that more content means more content that that can connect specifically to a person whose interest might be too unique or too specialized for a tentpole right yeah that makes sense that makes sense this is just just an overall oversaturation is is making everything like more difficult to stand out I guess yeah have you read the book the inevitable no I did not about what is it what is it about it's the founder of Wired magazine and he wrote this book about like what his prediction is for the near future of the like the next 10 years basically and it's it's really interesting one of the things he talks about is curation being like a massive currency curation and personalization of like personalization you know getting something that is crafted for me feels really special when there's so much stuff out there right or like how do we take all of this stuff out there and curate it to your legs because now the you know filtering through all of this stuff becomes a monumental task it's interesting to see you know I think about this all the time with kid bash because I look at turbosquid and they have eight hundred and fifty thousand models on there and it's like boom tip bash is never gonna build eight hundred fifty thousand models with an in-house team like it's just weird yeah yeah and and and then thinking like well how the [ __ ] do you sift through that many models like and like it's almost like TV stations if I get through the first you know two thousand models and didn't find what I'm looking for then I don't really care about the next eight hundred and forty eight dollars yeah and it's kind of that that weight of like there's so much quantity in the world how do we create quality how do we create curation and I think content has a lot to gain there if we can start to find ways of like okay well ten thousand games came out how do we how do we make sure that we serve the right ten suggestions to the person who's probably going to connect to them it's the same thing with education where you know you can learn everything for free pretty much right you can go on on YouTube and every single aspect of how the software works and how to create the art is there everyone's created it's free all of it is free but finding the why the right one that's the problem that's where it's that that's where it becomes a problem and I think that I mean to your point with curation you can see that on social media as well with like if you go on Instagram for instance there's a lot of accounts that all they do is curate their they don't create any content they just grab someone else's content and then post it up link and like hey check this out you know mm-hmm that's all they do and well I'm curious what you're feeling a feelings about curation is because obviously it's work like you have to put some kind of effort to do it right and it and and it is effort to do it correctly - yeah and like I think learn squared you guys did such a great job of this it was but that's not really curation though right like you're I'm talking specifically only curation because like it would kid bash for instance like it's not like you guys are curating you're actually creating your own content that is curated for a specific audience let's put it that way I'm talking because I think those are two like different realms - like I think I think we need to distinguish between you know content creation for for poor audience or limited audience versus quote-unquote like let's grab what's out there and just like put it in a nice spot you know yeah yeah and like I wonder what's your take on this specifically because like I have really mixed feelings about you know that specifically looking at hey like huh is it really work like should I be really excited that you're sharing my work because you're getting the attention yeah at one point you know yeah it's kind of it is a touchy one because there's kind of two sides to it you know what one is like hey you're not actually creating anything original and you're you're building a brand based on other people's work right the other side of it is if you're a really trusted curator than the value that you're adding is is giving weight to where you think deserves it that might not otherwise get it right you know and I think editorial can can often fall into curation like you look at by some of the bigger video game websites out there or movie websites and you're like well you know how much are you actually creating there if you've worked with a press release you know most the time the the people behind this story are the ones writing the press release and then how often does a journalist just copy and paste that into their article right at that point they're just curating curating to their audience but there's still value there right because there's a distribution channel there's a connection to an audience and I think this is something that we as artists have a really tough time understanding that the creation of the content versus the actual connecting it to the people who want to want that content yeah a lot of the times as artists we over value creation we undervalue the distribution I would say 90% of the time 99% of the artists yeah and in the business world they over value the distribution and undervalue the creation yeah that makes sense when you look at a movie that's being made the people who make the movie are on the lowest end of who gets the profits from the movie the people who distribute the movie make most of the money behind it yeah so there's like the artistic side of like oh content is everything but then also you could create the most amazing incredible things and no one would ever see it if you didn't have a distribution channel so and I use the example of the the LIVESTRONG bracelets do you remember the like Lance Armstrong got strong bracelets in terms of a product was it a brilliant product it was a rubber band you know but they sold millions of them millions because of the marketing and branding and distribution and everything that they had around connecting a mediocre product with a great brand message with an idea and with an audience yeah so yeah I feel like I have a pretty controversial opinion on this and from the arts world the artistic side because I think you can create something pretty awful and still gotta be massively successful and connect to a ton of people right yeah you know I think I think I agree on you I agree on this 100% i I don't think it's controversial I think hmm do you think it's controversial at all I I mean most people might think otherwise like they think like oh it's not fair that this distribution channel this this Instagram account has a million followers and they get more likes on my work than I do you know but is it the fault of your own or their own like it the your the way you're comparing it to a traditional distribution or distribution channel like movie reviews websites for instance right that's a good example because like okay on one hand like having a website like that is valuable because like okay and now I can find out you know which of those movies I mean maybe not not these days like it's so biased and it's so like all over the place and whoever is doing editorials most of the time is good but but some of some of those editorials are so controversially wrong not wrong for for reasons of like reviewing the the movie in the wrong way but like becoming unnecessarily political I would say sure and so like you're like that just making the waters a little more dirty it's like oh I came for a review I'm reading about politics like what's going on you know that kind of stuff but from the editorial point of view like it makes makes total sense when you look at it from that perspective right like okay like I could go and watch the movie and take a word of the studio that made it that this is the best movie ever or I could try it like this is the website they you know the reviews that they've done so far are totally on point and take their word for it right mm-hmm and go and watch it and if I'm disappointed then I'm not gonna really read a review from that side anymore you know yeah I think that applies to work as well although it's like a little different because it's like we're having like when you're seeing a work seeing at work you don't have to watch the whole movie to understand what it is good or not right total and it's the value of a brand if you don't trust the brand then you need to hear from people you know when it comes to you know learn squared isn't that form of curation I think what you guys have done is curated the the best artists and experts in particular fields and then created a platform for them to share their knowledge yeah and I think with with that you guys have built brand equity you've built a brand that people trust and they know that they don't need to hear someone else review a course they know that if you put a course up there it's gonna be very premium it's gonna be very thorough it's gonna have a or Matt that's easy to follow and I think that's kind of you know you don't you don't need that kind of curation when you have a brand that's trusted but you do when it's an unknown brand or when it's a brand that has a rocky track record yeah I agree yeah this is this is the this is where where it all makes sense and my question is this because you mentioned you know you've said like when you look at moviemaking and that's true like distribution is usually where the money is I mean obviously the budgets of the movies are like I guess half of the movies budget is VFX mm-hmm but it's not like the VFX artist is making the money because like there is just so much work that has to be done VFX that's why it's why it's costing so much money already start not getting them that paid that well when they do that and then then the and then the distribution is you know where the month the the real money is made I wonder if that's where you know the curation of art might go you know where it's like oh like you know I'm building as this curating channel that distributes else people's work right and then I'm monetizing it like well I wonder what the ethics of that are going to be eventually you know because like cutting clear if you're building a channel and you're posting someone else's work and then you're monetizing it that's copyright infringement right totally well there were unless you've provided enough value to the artists whose work you're using and I think that that's a that's what you mean the enough value like what were you let's say you're a brand-new artist you've never never worked on anything before and you have dreams to work on a big movie and let's say there's a website let's say like Kotaku right who's going to share your work and present it in a light to a bunch of people who could potentially hire you right Kotaku's monetizing your work because you're driving audience members to go view that article and yet monetizing that through ad revenue but as an artist you just got so much value of the increased exposure for it that it's okay that they're monetizing that article in their own way yeah you know they I feel like the trade-off there maybe it's just not spelled out for people so they're not making that decision consciously yeah but it seems like a pretty even trade even if you were to spell it out yeah on the legal technical level whatever your work is shared by someone I think they're there a certain there's a certain specific laws about like embedding someone else's work let's say you have Instagram posts and someone's embedding Instagram post that's been like a big point of contention recently because of the lawsuit that was going on in regards to embedding but if some I think that that's like a loophole that you could use like oh if some if you posted on Instagram anything yeah and we embedded that's actually legal right but technically if someone takes your work and post it elsewhere and that site is monetized that's on the on the technical levels legal illegal hmm right you can you can do you can basically go and say hey mmm that's illegal like I can see you for that right but then what you're talking about the trade off of it like is it first of all this is worth doing that you're gonna probably lose more money then you're gonna make right so that that's that's one point and then like yeah the trade off of it right hey I'm getting something out of it too I guess like is it a fair game yeah it's it's a very tricky tricky ground to step on you know because like hmm how do you go about it you know like one thing one thing you could say is like hey huh maybe we're just gonna focus on just building my own Brown like just you know me as an artist get out there [ __ ] post on social media and make a brand like yeah you know I think it's that's like the easiest approach I would say it's short game versus long game again you know right if you go and attack a website for sharing your work you're playing a very short game for a very small dollar amount if you look at what are other ways of getting value let's say I do want to start my own brand and be able to monetize then actually I probably want them to share that stuff you know I want to build brand Lea mission and I want to build brand association with reputable curators you know it's I think we fall into this trap so often of feeling very sensitive as artists about how our work is used which makes sense because artists traditionally have been taking advantage of a lot yeah I think you know understanding a little bit of strategy and figuring out what is your long-term strategy for monetizing your art and how do how do you use the playing field to your advantage sometimes that might mean giving art away I think there's that that too often notion of directors asking artists or anyone asking artists for favors and then saying you're gonna get exposure in return and then get paid an exposure you know and you know that that's a shame because what it's done is it's actually put a really negative connotation on exposure when I went really like for an artist to build your brand exposure is very important especially now like it wasn't important back then just to get any recognition or any notoriety and visibility I think I think your point too you know directors asking favors that have might have worked and actually worked when we were starting to be in the business like when nothing was popular there was no social media to spread the rumor or your art around and having having someone who's like a famous director or a production designer that has a good connections and doing a favor for that person let's say you work for free and you know that's a terrible deal but hey like this guy now knows that you're doing like really good work and someone else asks for like hey we need a concept artist for this new project the recommendation can be there but now this this kind of recommendation is like so much less valuable compared to like your general visibility and presence online you know completely yeah yeah I think it's it's the question of if you're gonna do those types of favors make sure you do it for the right people right you understand why you're doing it because you know the random person who hits you up by a cold email who's never done anything before who wants a favor who doesn't have much exposure on their own doesn't have much exposure to give yeah but you know when learned squared comes calling to do a course you know of course you're gonna monetize it as an artist building a course but also you have to do it for free but the mean value there is the exposure that that the learn squared brand can have by connecting your brand to it so I think it's just about being smart about when you do those things it's very interesting topic man like I feel like we could talk about this for like hours honestly I I mean from like personal perspective because there's just so many like land mines you can step on I hope your your viewers aren't I don't know bored from from email talking art and only talking you know business side stuff but their business is like I would say and I'm everyone everyone eventually learns it it's as important as art unless you have a partner that can take over the business and do it with the best intentions for you you have to be savvy at it like you have to you have to get some understanding of the business you know here's here's what you're gonna learn when you talk with most prolific biggest art figures you'll ever meet you know and from the surface level they might look like oh they're so only art oriented I'll give you an example like people right you look at people he does everything for free you know L mean not everything for free he releases everything he does for free it's right like most of it is royalty free right if not all and he does like work all the time and he's persona his character like the way he talks and everything thing makes you think that he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to business sure it couldn't be couldn't be quite opposite right he knows exactly what he's doing when you look at other artists that are on the high level that all you know the only thing they do is focus on posting art and and talking about art and then you and then you talk with them it's like oh you have actual business plan that is related to it you know and I'm talking like the highest highest level like big popular figures right all of them know what they're doing there they never go into that to get advantage to get taken advantage of and I think pretty much all of them realize that somewhere along the way where it's like hey wait a minute from art point of view like there's a lot of artists that do crazy work but they have no distribution right they are not out there and they get taken advantage of all the time right but now I have this distribution channel and I get all of those offers coming in hmm do I have to say yes to this random thing do I have to say yes to everything maybe I should start saying no and like raise raising up my stakes and like as you go through this process right you start to learn oh maybe it's a good time to start a company like actually have LLC and and and formalize it some protected you know maybe this is a good time to you know get higher tax consultant instead of like using TurboTax or whatever and get like the best benefit out of it right maybe maybe having like a business advisor to help me navigate through like contracts and like best practices of how to deal with you know business people because they think completely differently yeah you know the do you guys work with the business advisors at all with the kibosh oh yeah we I mean we have an Operations team you know we have right there you go yeah we have ten people whose only job is is that we have exactly massive team of lawyers bookkeepers Accountants CPA's you know our head of ops who's running that and we'll think like it's it's what allows us to do what we do yeah and and it's also you know we we define our departments with like a clear goal and what's your metric for success like how will we know if your department is successful and for operations which handles all of that they're metric is that all the other departments accomplish their goals right and it's like without this you know then we can't hire more people on we don't have the the recruiting or the contracts in place or the budgets set up or you know it's all of those things that need to be taken care of so that the product team the R&D team the sales team in the marketing team can operate at their full efficiency yeah same way as an independent artist by taking care of the business side of things and having a handle on that it actually frees you up to be more creative to be more selective about the clients that you choose and you know that that really is your your your freedom yeah the biggest the biggest problem with that is boring it's boring sure for a lot of people it's just boring like when you when you have to start thinking about setting up LLC and building like you know proper proper setups for how the company's gonna work and how are you gonna account for it all and having counting and having a lawyer and having all those things you know working in your favor like it just becomes such a burden at one point I was like hi I only wish I could just did art you know but then when you make that decision here's here's like the the point of it all when you make a decision not to focus on business you cannot be upset about people taking advantage of you then yeah right only takes one or two really bad client jobs before you go [ __ ] I wish I could say no to these jobs you know what screw it let me read the contract let me let me go and get this [ __ ] set up and like it seems like a mountain of a task it's really not you know getting a bookkeeper you know it's it's gonna cost you a couple hundred bucks a year they're gonna tell you our thanks you're gonna have it handled for you to your personal get us is I yeah it'll pay for itself but don't use TurboTax go and hire an accountant and the tax return alone will cover their cost and you'll make more money which means you can say no to the next job that isn't exciting to you yeah exactly like I've been using a CPA for pretty much past ten years now well yeah ten years and never looked back like my first taxes in u.s. I think I did it with TurboTax and I even though I was working full time I just didn't like their to know how to set up properly you know I just know how to do basic like okay put those things together boom here's a tax return I got nothing out of it I think I think I've even owed like 100 bucks or something to the to the IRS and then the next next year I went with CPA it cost me $600 500 bucks or something I got like a check back like 4000 bucks or something you know it's like hey I lost $500 you know like you'd look at it that way but then I made a thousand meaning I'm that positive five hundred right yeah from it all versus if I did it myself I would probably maybe big get a hundred or something you know because like I wouldn't know that hey those and those and those things you can actually put into as a tax deduction yeah which is something he is very difficult to find out unless you do a research and spend a lot of time doing that and that that's where it kicks in like is it worth for me to spend two days on doing a research how to do taxes with with your rate let's save your rate is on mid somewhere in the middle like five hundred six hundred dollars for like us for you know a starting artist or you know junior artists or whatever whatever I'm trying to run them number that's the twelve hundred dollars you've just wasted that you could have done working instead yeah doing research we talked about this all the time like a bashful Bankston I talk about this all the time it's like but there's two levers that we have to the to the money we have which is how much do we earn and how much do we spend and then sometimes there's really low-hanging fruit in the spent category and sometimes just really low-hanging fruit in the earned category and sometimes you're working all the friggin time so how much you're earning is really really high and you're not paying attention to what you're spending and it's actually easier to make a couple little adjustments to what you're spending or how you're doing this and you'll see you know your actual end of your profits kind of shoot through the roof just from a couple small tweaks yeah and if that's taking a one week to set things up so you don't have to look at it anymore and you just know that it's taken care of and you know those returns scale with your rate so you know maybe it's not a lot when you're making two three hundred dollars a day you start making you know fifteen hundred sixteen hundred dollars a day that little system in place starts paying for itself pretty massively yeah yeah you look at the LLC setup for instance right that's a good example too of scaling on average ten percent of your taxes go to you know social security and whatnot and when you set up when you set up LLC in the proper way you can actually save quite a lot of money on that ten percent now if you're making a 50k a year that's not that's not a lot of money I mean it's it's still a lot of money right sure I mean let's say if you say five percent because of the way you set up your taxes that's uh I know like what is it is it $250 or something like right hundred yeah yeah so that's mm-hmm yeah I don't know it's not a lot right it doesn't you know it doesn't seem like a lot what are you making like half a million as a company now that's like a budget for first for doing something sure it's a Tesla yeah exactly exactly right so I mean I know 5% wouldn't be a pest out of half a million come on whatever yeah it's a pest light and that's a business expense that you can deduct from taxes and save more money exactly right yeah yeah like once you shift your minds like okay business is important and it's know you know it's that's when it gets until like accounting and tax stuff that's not creative well you know it's all creative at all yeah not fun it's dry it's [ __ ] dry and you know sometimes you got to rip that band-aid off but for me in the in the business world that's the equivalent of me masking things out in Photoshop you know right sometimes you got to do it it's not yet but it's part of the process and yeah just try to get it over with and put on some headphones get through it and you know and then and then you take yourself out for a really nice dinner and buy yourself a Tesla as a reward that's funny dude we've been talking for almost an hour and a half man I know I know you have limited time because you got meetings coming up and we got some hiccups on the way but that's good we figured we figured dos out I I got to work to do as well but dude I think I think we should meet up again and continue that conversation later on cuz like maybe when we're not so busy both of us because that's just like that's a whole like you know a whole ground to be covered you know business in general because like I remember when you guys started with kid bash and and seeing how you guys grow and you know the kind of paints you had to go through yourself even before it get bashed as you explained right like oh those things sound you know for an average artist from from an average perspective he'll be like I don't want listen to that is boring you know but you I mean I'm pretty sure you get those questions every now and then like one of the most requested courses was like hey do a business course you know and learn squared because people like genuinely starting to realize hey like being business savvy is starting to be important totally and you know the funny part about about it all is also how how contracts are changing currently as well you know you still work with studios right I do and it's a man this is a I I've learned all of these lessons from like [ __ ] it up so many times yeah yeah like I consider my career to be like a pinball table and like I'm just a little ball that got launched out and banged against every possible surface on the way down you know with contracts it's like I tried to hardball negotiate when I was like a junior artist and my crash didn't burned and watched out how that played out I got the blacklisted from my favorite studio because of a negotiation and a contract notes that I had and it took me six years to get back into the good graces of that studio and then they became like one of my go-to favorite clients right it's it's so much the understanding of like where's the value who has the leverage here and like yeah when you're working for us to do like Marvel like you're not going to negotiate they got all the leverage and there's the 20 concept artists behind you who are clawing at the door so like when they put a contract in front of you you're gonna sign it or you're going walk away pretty much yeah you know said I think you're right businesses is such an important thing because like if an artist [ __ ] it up even you can lose a wonderful client you could sell yourself short and shoot yourself in the foot I've worked on projects where I spent six months doing paintings for him designed a huge part of the film and was never allowed to show the paintings to anyone or even say that I worked on the film and like that's a shitty-ass contract and and and I didn't realize it until it was too late yeah so there's a lot of like you said minefields here and I think when I look at that the art community there's so many amazing artists sharing their techniques and skills and I feel like if I can share a little bit about some of the business lessons that I've learned or am learning as we go right now as as we're scaling a company and entering new territories that I don't understand and don't know what challenges lie ahead I feel like that that's something that I can contribute to this community quai yeah it's it's such a vast topic could literally be a class and that wouldn't like the class wouldn't cover any of it either you know it's an experience dude was fun it was a lot of fun man great chatting with you dude and definitely would love to jump back on when when both of us calm down a little bit and we'll see ya ugly be inside so we'll we'll have to set now I'll be I'll be with my balls out running around yeah we should definitely catch up again and maybe talk strictly biz like literally just talk about business and some of the best practices that would be fun fun exercise for sure awesome I mean III we didn't even touch upon any of your career at all you know that's the funny part like you haven't talked about anything you've done any work you've done so that's crazy dude good times we'll definitely do it again we both got got other things to do right after this anyone who's listening thanks so much obviously thanks for being here listening to it all if you like the content if you like the podcast subscribe rate it you know the art cafes available not only in YouTube but also Spotify Google Play stitcher SoundCloud all of those places you go to our cafe del TV and all of them are listed if you want to listen to it as well is there anything you would want to plug in anything you would want to talk about before before we wrap it up check out mine squared it's awesome I did of course there I'm very proud of it yeah definitely check that out that went out and buy it like Buy It Now like it's the best it is the best theit is it's just really [ __ ] good thanks it wouldn't be on alert squared if it wasn't deep that's true and yeah cache 3d comm that's that's where we're putting out all these worlds and assets dude let me sell it for you okay and then you can rate if I'm good salesman go to get bashed kid wash you know like let's say all right you get a client right you get that client call and they're like hey like we would really love to really love you to do that awesome CD concept you know like we have this idea for a city with this character but man it's like a it's like a large city you would need to build and and we have a budget of I don't know whatever [ __ ] $50,000 and then you all right let's do it right and then you're like you scratch your head I was like [ __ ] it's only 50,000 I cannot build the whole city but then you find through the word of the mouth that kid Bosch 3d comm they have a whole city for it how much one on one 99 there we go yeah $1.99 holy [ __ ] I can save 48 like 40 9800 buffets I'm not building a city and just kid bashing it see that's the salesmanship how long was that read oh man we're getting this clip over to marketing start running this as a dude okay I I won't CPM for that how it's fun all right man good times thanks thanks again thanks guys and till the next one take care you guys cool we're done

Channel: Art Cafe

Views: 7,387

Rating: 4.9756837 out of 5

Keywords: artist podcasts, art cafe, art cafe tv, art cafe podcast, artcafe podcast, artcafe, art podcast, design podcast, kitbash3d, kitbash3d.com, maxx burman, maxx burman interview, art cafe artist interview, artist interview, art interview, maciej kuciara podcast, learn squared, learn squared school, business for artist, art of business, artist business, tips for artists on business

Id: CewoWbTpbbM

Length: 88min 40sec (5320 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 09 2020