Aristotle-Confucius Dialogue

foreign [Music] civilizations so 2016 we established the Socrates Confucius dialogue a couple of years ago when I spoke to Jeffrey Sachs he asked me why Socrates it should be Aristotle so five years later we will do the Aristotle and Confucius dialogue so Confucius Moon and Aristotle Jeff sacks please join Roger Cohen who will facilitate this dialogue and prevent us from this Clash of civilization welcome everybody to the Democracy Forum 10th edition long enough looking at those images that we saw to see that a few years have passed um I am very happy to see you all here and rather remarkably I'm joined tonight by Aristotle on my left and Confucius on my right uh I'm not sure what Socrates feels about his replacement by you Aristotle maybe he'll tell us but in any event it's a great pleasure to have you both here on the stage uh we're meeting at a difficult moment um there's a war in Europe nuclear weapons the use of them is being threatened our societies seem to have a great deal of difficulty determining what the truth is some people speak of post-truth societies inflation is rising soaring food and energy prices are rising rapidly and there's a great deal of disillusionment in our societies I'd like to turn first to you Aristotle what is to be done about these problems what should we do to try to make a better world thank you very much for this wonderful opportunity I can tell you it's very easy for me to uh take this position because for 10 years I had the incredible honor to be special advisor to Secretary General ban ki-moon and I always felt that I was advising Confucius uh I really always felt that I was advising an extraordinarily wise man who understood the core of confucius's approach which was relationships because the Secretary General would always explain to me if I'm meeting my Chinese counterpart or my American counterpart or my counterpart from Germany what are these special implications and feelings what are the proper rights in order to honor the counterparts and by honoring those counterparts he accomplished remarkable things the Secretary General in fact bringing us the two most important agreements of modern times the sustainable development goals and the Paris climate agreement and those are agreements that reached 193 member countries to do that you need the wisdom of Confucius so what does Aristotle bring to this you may I remind you you are Aristotle and why do I sit as Aristotle and I suggested not as Socrates Socrates of course was declared by the Oracle at Delphi as the wisest person in the world he had great doubts about that so he spent his life asking people about what is a good life they could never give a coherent answer so he finally realized maybe I am the wisest person because I know I don't know the answers to these questions and that was his conclusion but my sense is that his philosophical grandchild from Eric Socrates to Plato and Plato to Aristotle did no important answers Aristotle gave us the two greatest books on this topic of human well-being ever written in the western tradition and they come together as a volume the first is the nicomachian ethics about personal Behavior and it is paired with the politics which is the invention of political science but not Machiavelli's political science Aristotle's political sciences politics for the good for the human good politics based on ethics now Aristotle told us something of enduring value 2 300 years of enduring value but I think in the Modern Age the first thing Aristotle would have done is to pick up the phone or send a WhatsApp to Confucius and say could you come over to the Athens Forum we need to talk and here you are here you are because it seems to me like our theories while they're phrased differently are really similar because both of our theories put the essence of a good Society in virtue it's the virtue of the leaders it's the virtue of the citizens this is the core of Aristotle's political thought and confucius's political thought we lost it in the year 1514 when Machiavelli told us no it's not virtue it's how tricky you can be and then politics became managing power not cultivating virtue and well-being and I believe that we need Aristotle and Confucius back again as our real guides not the study of power but the management of human well-being based on virtue because we've lost even the concept of this ladies and gentlemen of what is a virtuous life and before we hear from Confucius I want to say my favorite part about Confucius because it also exemplifies Secretary General ban ki-moon he said if we can come to appreciate and understand courtesy and music better there will be no more war and I want to put underscoring on courtesy because it's not even a concept in my country no courtesy we have the right to do this we do what we want Nancy Pelosi we fly to Taiwan because we can do that no courtesy if there's no courtesy there can be no peace there will only be War so Confucius has it exactly right we need courtesy thank you thank you very much Aristotle uh Confucius if I may turn to you and please remember you are Confucius when you say I you are speaking as Confucius Confucius in an age where everybody can shout publicly through social media and there's so much noise and as Aristotle just said um a loss of a sense of politeness respect courtesy um is it too much to ask that your virtues the virtues you believe in be respected first of all it's a great honor to participate in this 10th things democracy forum for the first time but last May I participated in the regional Forum in Seoul so this is my second time and thank you madam a present for your presence now thank you Professor Jeffrey sucks for your very kind words around me in fact he was my special advisor but I was his you know student in in fact when it comes to Logics and teachings I hope that Confucius would not be angry about me if I misinterpret what he had taught us as an as a nation and Korean student from the very young age we have been taught what Confucius allowed to and many other Asian great thinkers and Scholars have been teaching us so I've been really trying to use that kind of wisdom during my time as Secretary General United Nations is composed of many tens of thousands of people who come from different different backgrounds now here what I'm going to tell you about the theme of this Athens democracy Forum the white democracy format this time organized by New York Times and why we are here because the most of the countries are going through very difficult times because of the lack of leadership of our leaders who either elected or Kings or whatever positions that they may have I have met the hundreds of world leaders present prime minister and ministers but what I have found during my time unfortunately and this is exactly why I'm here I found that there is some something missing in their leadership quality what is that missing that's a global vision and global citizenship among so many world leaders current and test it was very hard to find genuinely Global leader with the global citizenship that's why you may you should know that the first thing I did after my retirement was to establish a pan given Center for Global Citizens in Vienna where one of the United Nations headquartered is located I really wanted to train and educate the succeeding generations with some global citizenship then what does a global citizenship means if anybody is with global citizenship then I don't think we are now suffering from all these political conflicts and poverty and human rights abuses that is what I'm going to say now then what did Confucius said to us he said as a leadership quality the governance of once a governor I mean governing governing rule is followed by the families governing covenants of the family then is followed by the governance of the state then if this means for example if you behave well with Integrity in your family then you will be able to govern the country then if you can govern the country peacefully then you can achieve the world in peace this is what what Confucius taught us I really wanted to follow his teachings ask you a direct question Confucius remember you are Confucius what might President Putin learn from Reading you President Putin yes if you read you you wrote these all these extraordinary things I met him I met him many times during my time but I was a deeply deeply disappointed by what he had done against the Ukrainian people his illegal aggression of Ukraine should be condemned as strong as the possible tongues as a member of the elders uh the private organization founded by Nelson Mandela composed of former heads of state and government and Overlord I'm working as a vice chairman of these elders and we condemned his aggression and we even urged the International Community to establish a special tribunal criminal tribunal to make accountability on him I visited Ukraine on August 16th with former president of Colombia Juan Manuel Santos who is a Nobel Nobel Laureate I was deeply deeply preconcerned and it was a horrendous atrocities atrocities which were committed by Russian soldiers then at that time I was also very much disappointed by the silence by many countries around the world except a few except the American Europeans and some countries in Asia like a Japan and South Korea that most of the countries all the countries in Africa Latin America Middle East I think they've been keeping silence eyes I spoke out in this case of aggression and then silence is not an option neutrality is not an option the famous very respected Desmond Tutu attribution Desmond Tutu he once said if you keep silence in the face of Injustice 10 means you are joining the side of oppressor this is what I'm going to tell you thank you Aristotle if I may turn to you um you've you've journeyed through time and done extraordinary things um to get here you have in your writings uh the idea of the the golden mean the idea that balance um is essential to life um moderation um Aristotle do you as you look around uh the world do you feel that we've we've lost that sense of balance that we just hurtle Helter Skelter from one thing to another and had lost this concept that can be an orienting compass in life I think that the war and the geopolitical crisis between the U.S and China is a reflection also of the loss of balance but not only in the way that it is commonly understood I Aristotle I guess uh yes was a I happen to be advisor to President Gorbachev and it's extraordinary how did you how did you do that were you on a because when some kind of what you learned in someone's greatest philosopher you could do all sorts of things uh and and the advisor to president Yeltsin and the advisor to president kuchma uh in the first years of Ukrainian Independence so I saw one crucial thing which was that at the end of the Cold War the United States and Germany promised to the Soviet Union into Russia if you disband the Warsaw Pact we will not extend NATO you actually witnessed this Aristotle you are saying that you witnessed it's disputed by former secretary James Baker you name it it is you you saw you heard that you were in the room if if anybody if anybody would like to write to Aristotle's email address sax columbia.edu I will send you to the archival files that show explicitly how Hans Dietrich denture said explicitly we will not move an inch East and also how the Secretary General of NATO in the NATO meeting in 1990 said we will not move East at all so Aristotle you're blaming the current crisis on the west breaking its promises I am blaming the current crisis on the lack of balance and moderation absolutely because the idea that this is only one side is a myth this is a crisis that has been brewing for 30 years and every year Russia said please do not come closer to our borders please do not come closer to our borders please do not come closer to our borders that's the truth ladies and gentlemen and in 2008 nonetheless do you interrupt Aristotle well sometimes I'm obliged to I'm I know you've come a long way you must be tired but I feel it's uh I feel I have to from time to time no Aristotle so the these broken promises they were uh they would not have been broken if the leaders had been wise enough to consult you is that what you're saying we had very wise Statesmen Statesmen who followed confusion and Aristotelian thought like you think that you really think they're one and the same like George Cannon who said in 1997 NATO expansion will lead to the next Cold War he said it immediately and we entered a region of Crisis and being Aristotle I called the White House last year and I said please stop the NATO enlargement because maybe we can still have peace but they're not philosophers they're people of action and they were not interested in stopping any expansion they declared three times in 2021 that Ukraine will be a member of NATO we trapped Ukraine in the middle of this battle between these two giants it's an utter tragedy for Ukraine an utter tragedy because if you have Aristotelian Prudence what the Greeks call phronesis wisdom contextual wisdom if you have Temperance moderation so frozeny in Greek if you have the sense of justice style can dial oh excuse my Greek what is it thou kiss me yes if you have these virtues you know don't push the other side don't fly to Taiwan because we have the right to do so exercise Prudence moderation sense of justice respect for the other side and then you won't have War this is what Confucius meant when he said if you come to understand and appreciate courtesy we will not have War courtesy please courtesy so Aristotle are you in despair [Applause] Aristotle have you despair this Century we uh we're not yet a quarter of the way through the century but Aristotle you seem to be writing us off because we've lost touch with the most fundamental values that we need for a peaceful world that's a very pessimistic message from such a brilliant man Aristotle was not um I am not a pessimist because what I teach is that human beings have two sides they have the sides of selfishness and they have the sides of virtue but the goal is to cultivate virtue in Greece Greek excellence personal excellence political excellence and what we teach as philosophers is not that human beings are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil but they are teachable that virtue can be cultivated exactly what my colleague Confucius says that people can learn virtues now I also know and I'll just say things it's every generation's responsibility to keep working for virtue because it's never a done deal and the greatest philosophers my teacher Plato was attempted three times to be an advisor to the governor of syracusa he failed all three times it's hard to be a foreign advisor by the way they don't listen to you even to my teacher Plato but it doesn't mean you can be pessimistic it means we have to redouble our efforts at our own virtue because by cultivating our own virtue we cultivate the response in others as well that's the idea of courtesy thank you thank you very much so Confucius um Confucius um given what you said previously I imagine that hearing from your distinguished fellow philosopher Aristotle that the West is partially somewhat maybe largely to blame for the war in Ukraine that seems to be quite a long way from what you were saying so Confucius what do you feel about that first of all what is conflict among the countries and between the countries I'm deeply deeply worried and angry that even in this 21st century now countries are trying to occupy by forces by force a certain territory this is a totally unacceptable at the same time I am deeply concerned about the weakening of multilateralism if a multilateralism has been supported and strengthened the United Nations systems particularly Security Council has been really up to the commitment in the chart of the United Nations I think we should not so on the unnecessary suffer from all this particular people from you know Ukraine and therefore is I'm as a former Secretary General I'm very sorry that the United Nations has not been able to discharge is a chart of provision Charter Duty there should be some loud and clear from the International Community that they should reform the security Council during my time just a lot of such discussions and even French government has offered voluntarily that they would be willing to refrain from exercising fetal power when it comes to purely humanitarian issues like in the case of Syria when a lot of people were suffering from this then most of the member you know veto power they rejected this one that's where we stopped therefore we should not repeat what we had been repeatedly making failures this is what I'm urging again we have to meet meet the demands of the international committee there are many people who are suffering from Hunger abject poverty there are many people who are whose human rights are abused by big powers and some people with the powers this is something which we cannot you know accept at this time thank you Confucius um I I imagine that I mean Aristotle was talking about how top secret he's been advising Western leaders about various things I imagine you uh as Confucius that you've probably been advising Xi Jinping also about what he should do what have you been telling Xi Jinping about the possibility of uh an invasion of Taiwan for example I imagine that you've been urging him to show restraint I am deeply disappointed by what Chinese and particularly India and some other countries have taken positions uh the loud another great Chinese scholar who lived almost at the same time with the Confucius even he was born 20 years even before Confucius many people know about Consciousness but not much no not much people know about loud Sim he said in his teaching and that the way the heaven is to or help the way to Heaven is now let me see the way of Heaven is to be beneficial to all all the things and the way of sage is serving the people without competition without competing this means when it comes to some disagreement then you have to really um compromise with other people Professor sax mentioned about the China and U.S relationship at this time without United States and China working together it will be almost impossible to address all Global challenges not to mention climate change but also all these Global Security issues and therefore what I'm urging both leaders of course the significant difference in political systems ideologies and the way they are doing but I think at this time when you really want to address all these Global challenges we have to join all our hands on the deck together both U.S and China must work together otherwise it will be only the people it will be only the countries who will suffer there are some some Scholars have suggested that I think they um their relationship if they change the course of their work I think we can make some progress thank you I can say there may be three capital C's cooperation competition conflict but they began with the conflict when you begin with the conflict then nothing can happen let them cooperate thank you very much in transparent manner in the course of this competition and cooperation there will be a way of a mutually understanding better this is what Asian way of thinking can help resolve all these problems thank you so much confused the final word from from you Aristotle and it needs to be too quick I'm sorry I know it's been a big effort to get here but when you look at East West relations um are you are you worried that your Universal ideas are only understood in in part of the world do you think there is a fundamental issue in East-West understanding I I literally think that the fact that the core of Aristotelian virtues and confusion virtues are so similar is the core basis for hope there is a common Humanity that can cooperate together can work together can build virtue together there is zero intrinsic reason for conflict between the U.S and China the problem is actually a little bit of uh U.S neurotic reaction to China's rise China is viewed as a threat it should not be viewed as a threat China should be viewed as a normal country trying to have a normal life in this planet it just happens to have a lot of people in it and that makes it big but the idea that it is some threat that must be combated is an unvirtuous idea because China and the United States and the West can cooperate with each other and we have to cooperate with each other but Aristotle you see no difference between American democracy and the Chinese surveillance state I think it's absolutely important to understand something about my philosophy and please re-read the politics I will I will I promise It's a Wonderful book and it says something there are three basic forms of government by the one by the few and by the many but they each have a good side and they each have a bad side the good side of the one is monarchy the bad side of the one is tyranny the good side of the few is aristocracy the bad side of the few is oligarchy the good side of the many is Republic the bad side is uh is uh he called it democracy by the way but just uh so you know it it is uh Mob rule so we shouldn't saying the United States today is a state of mob rule did I understand you correctly we have mob rule in the United States to a large extent you should be very clear we had a mob attack our Capital led by the president of the United States that's mob rule that's pure populism that worried Aristotle a lot when he wrote in 330 BC that we would have populists like Donald Trump or Boris Johnson or many others but the attention was reposed and what in the end nothing's in the end that's the whole point everything is a continuing effort for the good and we are so far from achieving the good that we need to achieve we need to do better but my point is the following we should not judge simplistically another social system even another political system by simplistic categories I never did as philosopher I asked the question is this for the common good one thing about China that I would like to emphasize China went from 80 percent extreme poverty in 1980 to no extreme poverty 40 years later it is the most successful economic development in history it learned a lot from Korea by the way it learned a lot from Japan it learned a lot from the neighbors it's extraordinarily successful life expectancy Rose enormously education Rose enormously quality of life Rose enormously hunger fell completely this is an accomplishment we should take joy in China's accomplishment not fear from it we should congratulate China for its good works and we should sit down and understand each other because there is so much common interest but we don't even talk to each other we point fingers we say they're on the other side of the Divide we don't want to talk the first bit of wisdom to go back to Socrates is to talk and that's what we need to do thank you very much Aristotle thank you Confucius thank you [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Athens Democracy Forum

Views: 132,703

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Length: 36min 52sec (2212 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 07 2022