Andy Woods׃ The Apostasy Controversy

there are many misunderstandings concerning the teaching of the rapture of the church these days [Music] [Music] and your discuss some of the misunderstandings and a in particular an interpretation of second Thessalonians chapter two is dr. Andrew woods Andy woods I'll just call you Andy okay and that Andy you uh have prepared a lecture on second Thessalonians chapter two which is getting a lot of traction these days a lot of people really love the way you present this particular section of the Bible and I think you do a wonderful job and that's why you're here I want you to kind of expand on second Thessalonians chapter 2 it is an important important passage right well yeah first of all thanks for having me and it's a pleasure to be here but you know second Thessalonians is really written as one appalls earlier letters it's probably his third letter and he's he's actually been pushed out of Thessalonica by unbelieving Jews and he's in Corinth and it's sort of like leaving your babies bond he looked at these new believers as his children you know spiritually who he had one two cries and they don't have a New Testament to consult they don't have prophecy Watchers TV to consult you don't have any institutions or seminaries and the guy that you've learned from the Apostle has been pushed out and lo and behold they get this forged letter telling them that they are actually in the tribulation period which I think unsettled them because in first Thessalonians Paul explained to them that they would be removed from the earth before the tribulation started so there's lots of eschatological prophetic confusion kind of like today but you can imagine how that would be exasperated when you don't have a Canon of the New Testament could be hello they don't have the new tip this is flawed about 80 50 50 100 so it's early in Paul's writing period and so they don't have a New Testament they can turn to no book of Revelation right and and the Gospels so forth and and and yet Paul has taught them something that we consider an advanced idea in the state and that's fascinating to me they're kind of baby Christians who would believe would tend to believe what what Paul wrote to them and naturally they would be a bit confused if someone came along and tried to sell another idea especially in Paul's name yeah because this when you go back to verse 1 and verse 2 it's apparent there's some kind of forgery letter spirit prophecy something allegedly coming from Paul saying the day of the Lord has begun now they had learned the opposite from Paul so Paul from Corinth writes to the Thessalonians believers and I think what he's doing in chapter 2 is he's telling them you're not in the day of the Lord because if you were in the day of the Lord you would see a sequence of events like the Antichrist in the temple and the antichrists miracles and the Antichrist being overthrown by Christ himself and right in the midst of it he says this in verse 3 let no one deceive you by any means for that day shall not come now that's an italics which means that's been sort of added and to kind of smooth over the translation but it's referring back to what was called the day of the Lord and the prior verse look no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except they're coming come a falling away and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition and it's this interesting phrase here you're not in the day of the Lord because there hasn't been a falling away hmm and it's the Greek noun apostasy ax and your typical interpretation of that these days is this is just talking about a spiritual departure mm-hmm you know the spiritual departure of the world to follow the Antichrist in the tribulation period that Greek word apostasy has been anglicized into our word apostasy this would be easy to kind of think of that in that way that's what the Greek word says and that's what the English word says end of conversation and the conversation and most Bible translations today we can get into this little later but they translate it as some kind of spiritual departure so a rebellion a revolt some use the word apostasy but the fact of the matter is there and that's the only view I knew for many many years but upon further study there's a whole different view of this that the noun apostasy a' could mean not a spiritual departure but an actual physical departure ie the rapture now the reason this is so significant is it says the falling away shall come first it's the Greek word proton and if this indeed is talking about the rapture of the church Paul is very clear that the rapture of the church occurs first and that settles the long-standing debate doesn't it that we've had for the last several centuries on when does the rapture happen relative to the seven-year tribulation period you know as you well know there's pre-tribulation lists our view mid-tribulation lists post tribulation lists then you have pre-wrath rapture ist's then you have another view called partial rapture and it's a lot of confusion as you get into that debate but if Paul is actually saying there's going to be a physical departure first in other words before the man of sin comes and the tribulation and so forth then it's sort of game set match you know there's no reason to debate this anymore so that's why how you define apostasy ahir becomes a big deal and many people use this as a proof text for the church going through the tribulation which you and I don't believe so we have then a major discussion underway here how do you interpret this and what we're talking about here is this letter from Paul which acknowledges that there are forgeries circulating apparently under Paul's name or some other authority saying that wait a minute the day of the Lord has already begun and the tribulation has already begun and we're in it and we then have to begin to behave a certain way apparently what would be your motivation for saying that the day of the Lord has already come and the end that you're in it would it be to gather followers unto yourself in other words you become a kind of a leader a group of people and you said I'm the one that can sort of take you through the tribulation I really don't know what the motivation of the proponents of the false doctrine are but I know that I know the angelic motivation it's always to cause confusion and it's to undermine what the Apostles have said and there's always an agenda by Satan to remove the Church of Jesus Christ from apostolic teaching because once we cut that cord we fall prey to anything so Satan somehow is using these imperfect vessels what the proponents of this false teaching you know to bring confusion okay now here's where it gets interesting and your presentation on this is fascinating because you offer 10 distinct reasons why a particular term in the Bible is to be interpreted a certain way let no man deceive you by any means verse 3 for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition and this this term falling away translated from the Greek apostasy a' is a fulcrum it's a balancing point around which everything else sort of stands or falls and you offer 10 reasons why that hurm falling away should be interpreted not as falling away but as physical departure it's talking about the physical departure of the church right and you've studied Greek and you understand it and you understand the tradition of translation so go from there yeah well before we get to the ten points I mean I think Paul is just making a very simple point here he's saying you're not in the day of the Lord you Thessalonians despite what you've been misled to believe because you're still here in other words your presence on the earth proves you're not yet in the day of the Lord because there has to be a physical departure ie rapture you know before the day of the Lord starts I think that's what Paul's point is okay so now to these 10 points you know why would I understand this word apostasy it as a physical departure well the first reason is there's always been spiritual departures you know today you know you can talk to mr. and mrs. America about their local church and they're upset that their own local church has spiritually departed so how would a spiritual departure be some kind of you know definitive sign you know the end times and one of the illustrations you know I like to use to prove this as Harvard College founded in 1636 and you go back to its original doctrinal statement and it says let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly exact expressed or pressed to consider the main end of his life and studies is to know God in Jesus Christ which is eternal life and therefore to lay Christ at the bottom as the only foundation of sound knowledge and learning and seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom let everyone seriously set himself by prayer and in secret to seek it of him every one shall exercise himself in reading the Scriptures twice a day that he shall be ready to give such an account as his proficiency there at Harvard now I don't think the credo of Harvard is being observed today yeah and what's happened there's been an obvious spiritual departure and you know you can look on the evangelical landscape and see institution after institution that was started on godly principles that has departed and this idea of spiritual departures is normative sadly in our age and so when you read here in second Thessalonians you're not looking at a spiritual departure would not be a unique event yeah how could that be a unique sign it would be oh just another day in the news all right so that's sort of my first reason okay the second reason is this book of second Thessalonians is really one of the earliest letters Paul wrote so he broke Galatians first most believe first Thessalonians second Thessalonians and the last days apostasy is really not a massive subject in Paul's earlier letters he does talk about the Galatian heresy but that was an apostasy happening you know right then and there right but when he begins to forecast when he begins to predict the last days apostasy you really don't get much treatment on that you get into the pastoral letters particularly first Timothy and second Timothy and then Jude and Peter written around that same time get into that subject in depth so it just seems sort of out of harmony that Paul would broach that subject so early on when his his custom is to deal with that subject later in his ministry and you know if you look at second Thessalonians as a letter the whole letter we won't have time to do that today but essentially the letter says here's what's true and I want you to wait patiently for Christ that's the subject matter it's really not talking about what's going to happen when people fall away from the faith as you say those are the later letters of Paul to deal with this letter is is the patient waiting for Christ because they were in the midst of suffering and it's sort of hard for a suffering church to be apostate yeah and so it's kind of a different scenario in Thessalonians than when he said he started then when he starts to develop later elsewhere the but by the way I really think Paul really gets into the subject of the apostasy of the future when he begins to describe the last days of the church to the Ephesian elders at my Letus he gives a tremendous speech to those elders in acts 20 and around verse 26 27 28 you know right on through verse 31 that's when he begins to say you know from your own number men will arise and distort the truth so it just isn't really a big subject that Paul deals with early in his ministry it's really not until the third missionary journey that he gets into the subject of the apostasy but the third reason as you look at verse three carefully in front of the word falling away at least in the original Greek the noun apostasy a' is a definite article and traveling through the verse where it talks about the son of perdition who we think is the Antichrist there's a definite article there so just like the manifestation of the Antichrist happens at a specific point in time I believe he comes forth with the opening of the first seal judgment in revelation 6 the you know the rider on the white horse just as the Antichrist comes forward as a specific point in time the apostasy ax is not talking about some kind of gradual event but it's talking about something that happens at a specific point in time and that would better fit the rapture then a gradual spiritual departure interpretation good point and I agree it makes the case so where do we go from here well my fourth point is that apostasy a' can refer to a physical departure and that's where people are confused because the way this is typically handled is the the noun apostasy occurs only one other time in the New Testament it's over in acts 21 verse 21 where Paul was accused of causing Jews to depart from Judaism so there it very clearly means of spiritual departure in departure and so people think well that's what it means over there that's what it means over here the C words mean things based on their original context or the context those words are found in for example take the word Apple how many meanings can we generate with the word Apple I could be talking about a computer I could be talking about New York City the Big Apple I could be talking about a piece of fruit mmm I could be talking about the pupil of somebody's eye the apple of one's eye and so when I see the word Apple in a text what meaning do I supply and the three rules of real estate are location location location the three rules of Bible study are context context context okay context determines the meaning of words because rarely is a word a technical word meaning it always means the same thing everywhere it appears so it's the same with this word apostasy ax it can refer to a spiritual departure over in acts 21 verse 21 that's what it means over there that's not necessarily what it means here and when you look I quote you know in the presentation I quote liddell and scott which is a very you know famous you know well-known greek lexicon and liddell and scott indicate that yes the word apostasy can mean a spiritual departure but it can also refer to a disappearance it's actually listed there in their lexicon it can refer to distance so it's within the semantic range of the word to mean a physical departure so it can mean spiritual departure it communes physical departure so how do I figure out which meaning to supply the context helps me and here the context is Paul attempting to console those who have been told something that isn't true right and if you go to the immediately preceding context he says that verse one now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our what gathering unto Him yea by the way that greek verb gathering is at the SU nago where we get the word synagogue you know a Jewish gathering and that's what what is our gathering to him it must be the rapture of the church which he's unfolded in the first letter 1st Thessalonians 4 I linked together coming together being caught up in in the air in the sky to meet the Lord and so therefore in context the whole context here is dealing with our gathering together with him so when I see this word apostasy ax I'm very comfortable applying a physical departure rather than a spiritual departure because I have contextual support to do that mm-hmm so a physical departure now other people have mentioned this in the past from time to time there's been a discussion for many many years but it's becoming a more important discussion right now there there are many people who are looking at the world today and they are seeing developing trouble out there and they are concluding that the tribulation must be very very near and they're saying ok you're going to go through the tribulation so I think this has become a powerful conversation just because of what's happening in the world today mm-hmm and you know the heated 'no sand the acrimony of the debate between the competing sides has brought this interpretation under great scrutiny yes but if I'm understanding it right this almost seals the deal for our side there has to be a physical departure before the man of sin can ever be unveiled so you're right it it does become a very big deal now my my let's see it where are we up to I think Oh number five I remember right the the fifth fact or a point that I bring up is the when you get into the verbal form of this word and let me just back up for a second words have roots and from that root you can use the word in a noun form or you can use it in a verbal form like when I say you know Jane went on a run you know I'm using run as a noun but when I say see Jane run I just converted into a verb so it's the same in Greek you have this common root and the noun form is apostasy ax the verbal form is a system II okay now let's focus on that verbal root just for a second when you track a fist to me through the Greek New Testament it's used 15 times only three times does it refer to a doctrinal departure the remaining twelve times which is what over 3/4 of the uses it usages it refers to an actual physical departure for example Paul pleaded with the Lord 2nd Corinthians 12 verse 10 to remove the thorn in the flesh from him we don't know what that thorn of the flesh was but he actually wanted it to be physically removed from him that's a fist to me and I wondered it could be part apart and he's talking there about a physical departure and there are many many examples I could give of this for example Luke 4:13 when the devil had finished every temptation he left him for a more opportune time that's a fist to me again departed from physically departing Luke 237 remember the elderly prophets there in the temple waiting for the Lord it says and then as a widow to the age of 84 she never left the temple serving night and day along with fasting and prayers and there at left is a fist to me she never physically departed and we could go on and on reading reading verse there is ample precedent we were running out of time so we need to come down to the to the rest of your 10 reasons go ahead well continuing on that you know we get to number six and since the noun and the verb can be used to refer to a physical departure we've got to ask ourselves a question what's the context here we've already dealt with this briefly but the whole context here we've already mentioned verse 1 Paul down in verses 6 and 7 talking about it restrainer mm-hmm now I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the church and Paul makes a point here that the that the Antichrist can't come forward until the restrainer is removed so the context is again the removal of the church before the man of sin can even manifest and you know you I think this point deserves some conversation because the church is the great restrainer wherever the gospel is not proclaimed and wherever for example young children are not taught the Bible and grow up in Christ you see a social degeneration that is to say and I think we're seeing it today yes generations growing up without knowledge of Christ are free you basically do anything they want to do and that the restrainer then or restraint I guess is the function of the church mm-hmm whoever this restrainer is he's got to be big enough to hold back Satan because Satan according to this passage is the Antichrist rather according to this passage is Satan's man of the hour Satan is going to perfectly express himself to the Antichrist through counterfeit signs and wonders so this restrainer has to be stronger than the devil and only an omnipotent God can hold back the devil's hand and therefore I believe that this restrainer is the spirit that lives permanently in the church and so the Antichrist really cannot come to power until the church is physically removed my only point in getting into all that is that contextually there's tremendous support for defining apostasy and not as a spiritual departure but it's something physical it's within the semantic range of the word and it fits the context beautifully I guess we go over the other points in our next episode together easily I have to talk about this because this is a big subject I want to talk about for a moment a book that Andy Woods has written is called the coming kingdom it's a complete exposition and presentation of what the Bible says about the coming kingdom this is a grossly misunderstood subject in our era and that's why he wrote this book and I find it explicit I find it easy to read and absolutely startling in the way that he's put ideas together it's very important that you understand the coming kingdom and this book I think will help you more than any other book I've ever seen and I do not say that lightly called the coming kingdom and also we are going to offer with that today on the basis of our discussion defending the rapture I recently had a long conversation with dr. Thomas ice Tommy ice and I turned out a a DVD here called defending the rapture and we go into a lot of what Andy and I have been talking about but from a different perspective you can order the rapture package from our online bookstore just click on it prophecywatchers.com online bookstore scroll down and you'll find the rapture passage by the way we're still offering a charter subscription just for a limited time to our magazine the prophecy watcher for $100 it's a charter subscription for as long as you live you'll continue to receive the prophecy watcher and by the way it's going to have great articles in it dr. Andy woods has provided an article for our May issue and it's going to be on guess what the rapture of the church I can't wait to read it a one-year subscription of a prophecy watcher 1995 and you can find the online bookstore prophecywatchers.com just click on it scroll down and you'll find the rapture passage and information on how you can become a charter subscriber to our magazine Andy I wish we had more time but we're going to come back and we're going to hit this again and pull the little strings all together and and into a nice package I think your presentation of the pre-trib rapture the church is right up there at the top I appreciate it well I appreciate it was good being here thank you and we'll talk to you again good I'm Gary Stearman hey you keep watching we are thanks for joining us on prophecy Watchers you can find us on the web at prophecywatchers.com where you can sign up for our free email newsletter in the meantime keep watching everybody and we'll see you soon [Music]

Channel: Andy Woods

Views: 11,196

Rating: 4.8497109 out of 5

Keywords: bible study, Andy Woods, bible prophecy, pre-trib, Rapture

Id: eiY4_DfK7ak

Length: 28min 30sec (1710 seconds)

Published: Sat May 20 2017