Anders Hejlsberg and Lars Bak: TypeScript, JavaScript, and Dart

all right we're in Aarhus with Amber's house Berg at Lars bak and we're here to talk about typescript and JavaScript and dart and let's start right off me so we announced yesterday type script so I wanted to quickly get larsa's take on it so what do you think of typescript that is not true I actually looked at it yesterday but I have not coded in there of course it seems like a safe bet right let's say to me it looks like a CoffeeScript with optional typing why do you get classes and you have this optional typing which is great the optional typing is not that far away from what we have in that that's a little bit of type inferencing going on all in that at the end of the day they still compiles down to JavaScript so I don't know what the intent is with it if it's to influence the decoder Standards Committee to Twitter that kind of stuff but the I know that they have discussed the classes and and types as well as part of the egg new script for right and proposal maybe even comment on that yeah well I let me add you you know your CoffeeScript analogy is it's you're right that there's it compiles to JavaScript I I will say though that unlike CoffeeScript and unlike dart it also starts with JavaScript so it's a superset of JavaScript so so you can just copy and paste your code in and then you know there are only a few extra concepts you have you have to learn that but that was sort of part of the the reasoning about you know not creating a new language but just starting copy from JavaScript to to typescript yeah if not the other way around well there come well the compiled output you think that is JavaScript so you know it sort of starts and ends with mm-hm with good job it's a superset of JavaScript I mean - technically correct right I mean that that that's what it is now didi the features that are in there optional static typing classes modules arrow functions rest parameters the latter four are all you know aligned as closely as we can with what's currently proposed for ECMO script six so we're so we're not actually trying to sway the committee in one direction or the other rather we're trying to follow where the committee is we actually had a different design for classes originally and and once the committee decided on on the maximun proposal which is which is the current one we went back and and realigned I still like parts were all designed better but so you know there's a question since it's not determined in the committee which way to go mmm-hmm what if they take a different route well then well load up yes this is I mean that that is our intent now it all depends I mean I can't say because I don't know what what's what's gonna happen right but but but that's the intent and that's why we already but we had internal teams using it and we and we changed the model of classes and broke everybody you know and so for this reason it's a preview right and and so you know there it wouldn't make a lot of sense for us to have a different model of classes from what ultimately ends up in echo script six I mean that would just be just to make one thing clear from my side I think it's great that people are innovating in the web space so thank you for yeah just make sure that we contrast a little bit to that right that is a very different kind of programming language where we from scratch are trying to make cleaner semantics yeah I know you have some some opinions about the basic semantics of JavaScript okay to try to clean that up in dart you try to solve all the stuff than just having some study types and I think semantics right we also want to have better performance and we think actually we can make the runtime go much faster while we already know it's running faster because it's doing that today but in a short while we will have a fairly good factor compared to JavaScript and and startup is important to us for big application and I think that's a problem with J's with even forced typescript where you generated JavaScript and use the desk startup performance and and the reason why mentioning is the problem is the JavaScript in order to set up a daily program you have to run the script there's no way around it there's no self declared structure or in JavaScript when when you setup the program so that's just some of the differences between the typescript and dot I mean can we talk about the elephant in the room which of course is JavaScript I mean we see a lot of this out in the real world where people are trying to make job like they're trying to do this contortions to make JavaScript more of a structured language or a simpler to use or more familiar to you know object-oriented developers and stuff but one of the questions I'd like to ask right off the bat is from an angle of the JavaScript developers who are perfectly content with this very kind of strange world that they're in and in some sense this might be a testbed to see whether or not they really want classes and interfaces and that kind of stuff and in dart it's true maybe I mean so that's my question like from from the JavaScript developers perspective the ones that deal with this ones who write jQuery and India everyday with a really kind of strange attacks this is going to see whether or not this actually makes sense in their world maybe they don't want structure have you ever thought about that yes sure plus we have and so there's reasoning behind the madness I think in both cases we're at least trying to have a few common goals with these two languages one is that I think we're all experienced when you do big JavaScript application they turn into spaghetti code and they're very hard to maintain at Google we often try to put more structure on their script by having guidelines for the arrow script and put in comments that will sort of describe the types that have been passed in for the parameters and so on this is all an attempt to get structure in JavaScript to make it more maintainable the code so that's part of the reasons right we started at least the dark particulars to make sure that we can improve program productivity and also allow tooling to help manage the code afterwards that's one of the big advantages of having types and I guess unless you can just yeah no I I think but but certainly the the design of typescript was very much driven by by feedback from from customers B the external or internal using our our tools or or the tools that they wish we had you know to write to write javascript code go this is too hard and you know I'll you don't necessarily have to have classes and you don't necessarily have to have modules but boy they do help you structure your code and I think that the world sort of has proven that object or any is useful for further you know at large and that modular programming does have certain advantages it doesn't mean that you have to use it but it's but it's there i I also think you know that that static typing you know the last decade of IDE advancements you know with refactorings and code completion and finding references and navigating big code bases a lot of that is driven by static type information and and if you don't have the static type information you just really can only go so far before the guesswork starts and then sometimes you're gonna guess wrong or you're not gonna have a guess at all and so you're not gonna be able to provide the help and that's fine for small code bases or single developer code bases where you can keep everything in your head or see everything on the screen you know but but as code bases get into the thousands or tens of thousands of lines of code you know you need you need help in reasoning about them you know and and and and that's really what this is about it's it's very much about doing what we need to do to bring the tooling up to the level of excellence that we want to that we want to be it I I would add to you know that one of the interesting things about starting with with what JavaScript is that that with typescript we allow you to use all of the existing frameworks that are out there and you know that yes javascript has all sorts of problems as any as any established adopt ik technology does you know be they're never pretty they're never pristine because lots of people have worked on him over lots of time and committees and what-have-you but on the other hand what they do have is they have an enormous community of users and enormous community of code bases out there that you can leverage right and we're we're being very conscious about you know not messing with that and allowing people to use jQuery node underscore backbone and actually sort of dip their toes by you know gradually providing static type information we've written the static type information for the Dom for the JavaScript runtime for node for the beginnings of on for node and for jQuery and and but the good news is that even without them you know we can still deliver value but with them we can deliver more value and you still don't have to go modify any of these libraries you can use them as they are can be much larger than Gmail at some point I'm wondering yeah I mean there are there are limits today probably I don't know where the limits are I'm continually amazed by the fact that these large applications actually do load and do work and and are still you know it's just some of the rain to hundreds of thousands of lines of code right and that the strides have we made you know like thanks to your work and and and and and they work on chakra Nighy is amazing you know so so you know I I must say I you know I have been surprised at what you can do yeah so it's certainly true that v8 spit-up and a long time ago the execution of Jo that's good so browsers have passed that way and it's all good for the users I think if you contrast these two lines we talked about right the the typescript is still a very safe bet whereas dot is is actually trying to to change some of the fundamental issues that's with JavaScript and I still from a computer science background I still have problems with that you can you can design an application with life ways where you can you can monkey patch the libraries when you get up running I just find that very very disturbing when you're trying to be big right big application so even though it's admirable to do a language that translates to JavaScript but still if you can write normal Tiarra scope the means that you can monkey patch the basic libraries and you'll end up in the same mess as if you use JavaScript to start off with I think that if you do the right kind of if you type check everything that'll probably be printed but it's still a risk when when you use the the basic execution and then a JavaScript so at least when you mix JavaScript and and this new language very tightly so I think it said it's about the risk and and I'm willing to try the extra bit and and go for something new I think that's the I guess you haven't looked at that oh yeah yeah yeah it's been a while but you know when it first came out yeah so but I think it's the the object model it's much simpler it's pretty much inspired by the small talk object model where objects they have a fixed format when you have created it and if you want to do a dynamic object you basically have to create a map or a list and use that and and then we put in stuff that I think is important in a language like instead of only having floating-point numbers which is the basis of computation in JavaScript we actually have integers I like integers because you can actually reason about their uses I so having a language that's based on numbers or doubles and you behind the scenes work really hard to make it act like integers yeah it's I think a fundamental problem in my mind so I really like integers when I code for loops I don't want them to behave romantically right like doubles no I you know everything you say and more I will I will readily agree but think the question is is is not whether JavaScript is broken you know in places the question is whether it is broken enough and to merit being replaced by something else right and then that's and I don't know the answer to that question and and then I don't know who if anyone knows you know what we'll have to see but yeah so one thing I thought about and I also have mentioned before is that in order to make JavaScript fast you have to apply a lot of heuristics to the compiler and has to do with the shape of the optic has a has a well-known form then you can optimize otherwise not and that means that in certain situations where if you from the side are manipulating an object that's hot in the desc abandoned suddenly the performance degrades and I know people are trying very hard to make that not happen but it's still the case for all first year scheme Indians and that's something I'm also very keen on is to have a language like that where you can predict that the performance will not degrade no matter how you use it from the side and I think we cannot sell that as just on the language part we also have to make sure that system properties are demonstrating its better and some respects like performance and and pretty pretty ability in performance and size right so I had my plane in in v8 and we all do these hidden class our shapes or objects behind the scenes and depending on how dynamic a program is right the the bounce of or the limits of these hidden classes is the suit right so you get sort of you get bloat in in the VM and there's no way around it no matter how you do it so in JavaScript program where you invoke it on optimizing JavaScript engine you have some bloat associated with trying to recognize structure behind the scenes stuff like that we can avoid completely when running that so I think there's many issues you can discuss it if it's just the language life it makes sense to make new language but I also like to see it as if you actually build an application in this new language called that then you'd also get some guarantees that there is faster if you have the dart VM installed in your browser of course we also translate to JavaScript by the way very different yeah solutions to a similar problem obviously but one has to ask that JavaScript why can't it be like C to C++ in the sense that you have JavaScript JavaScript is not going to go away now it may go away but I don't know that it's really ever going to happen it seems to just continually grow in terms of you sweet even in Windows now in Windows 8 you can build native html5 applications you're programming in JavaScript or typescript and why does it have a go wait I don't know but this is what I'm trying just this is where I'm trying to get you you mentioned these fundamental problems if the language evolves to a level where those problems disappear then there won't be a need to invent a new language with a new virtual machine you can just have JavaScript in the modern version so javascript plus plus which has classes and interfaces and object orientation yeah fix problems you see what oh it is a reasonable if you have an infinite amount of time so I'm getting I'm getting close Henson aids well or respect for the the committee doing JavaScript but if you have seen the adoption of new standards in their script I don't have time so it's the we started with v8 in 2006 and the big hard thing there was to do a coma script for with for four reasons I do not really understand fold it completely I guess you can elaborate on that actually I was not involved in the script for either but so yeah no but that's a representative for the company way it's the the point is that it's pretty much the same language sass we started with in 2006 right there's been a few additions there's like my script 5 but most in reality most programs out there are still a coma script 262 revision 3 so um so it doesn't change that fast so when you say well why not make it incrementally better I hope it can happen that way but right now it doesn't seem to go very fast it might be that changed after airing this but I think the the the innovation right in the web space is crucial right I think what what the big problem is right now is that if you don't innovate with new languages new systems in the browsers the proprietary mobile platforms are taking over and I don't like that right so we need to make sure that we push this technology as far as you can to make sure that web technology is also brilliant when it comes to mobile phones and we're doing our part like both of us I guess in in doing better languages and and systems for for the web yeah yeah it's a it's bit of a conundrum you know because the real power of JavaScript is the fact that it runs in so many different places on so many different devices and on so many different platforms built by so many different people with so many different agendas right and it's really hard to get them all to agree on stuff right but there are some things that have been agreed on you know like an echo script five did move the ball forward and it is getting to a point where most of the browser's now sports strictmode and and you know a bunch of the stuff that's in my script five and you could certainly envision like stricter mode you know with like even with hints for object layouts or urban ever I mean they're certainly things that could be done you know to JavaScript to to make it run faster as it exists right or you know I don't know you know you're saying that v8 and the work that you guys do the great work that's been done and the great work that we do in chakra and stuff with her use some different techniques and I'd love to have that conversation in a different interview here be the question I have is as you mentioned you could make JavaScript execute faster if you change the language if you added to the language yeah I think I was well I was trying to say something subtle or I think you could you could you could make it run faster if you provided hints about how it might run faster you might for example have a hinting system that you know just like a string literal that says nothing you know like you strict and it for your order or whatever you know you could have some information in there that everyone would ignore except for those who look at it you know and understand it you know I'm saying and then pick up the hints that are in there for example I mean I'm not you know I'm not just throwing out ideas here you know so like blackness and see this they're great yeah well I'd you know I'm not it's not it's not and the questions will be are we sure we can't get any faster but course we can make it faster you can always make stuff faster system s of med of throwing resources at it so I don't think it's that's that's a shoe answer on that one but if you can make so if you can make JavaScript faster just throw another thousand developers on it you guys have all billions of dollars in the bank but you know in reality so let's put you know in some sense if you can get faster and the language doesn't have to get better to me that seems like a wasted that's a waste of time is what you're really saying I mean why doesn't the language just grow up to meet its needs right everyone's writing these giant applications in JavaScript language design for that I mean it wasn't no Rendon's the first person to tell you yes I have no idea whatever turn into this yep see ya so it has yeah and now you have to deal with it one way to deal with that is to develop a beautiful alternative you know brand new language really modern or some old things of course you do some small you have that really interesting isolate model the would I mean it's interesting it's very interesting model that's one way but it's completely new yeah you have these thousands and thousands of developers that are already writing in a very different context so it's gonna be like bringing people to D from C++ it's gonna take time even though D is a beautiful language but who will see if that actually happens the code base for C++ is just insurmountably large now in this case this is why I'm asking you have these two very different approaches at the end of the day the goal is to make developers more productive right and in big projects that's what you mentioned from the office one of the goals that's one of the goals because on the typescript side it doesn't actually change the semantics of the actual language or doesn't make it safer right type typescript is purely a tooling thing you know and and and and it all goes away at runtime right we're we're we're dart is large describe it but there's a VM there yeah and it's it's a different it's like it's a different design point right well we can also we also preserve the same semantics of dart when it ends to Tedesco but it's more strict in terms of that it's certainly closer than Java or C sharp and yeah you know like like GWT and scripture for example yeah but I think one thing the is still important talk about the the optional typing at least for us or so for that I haven't looked I'm tried the typescript that much but in that write one of the design points for the option typing was to make sure that when you do experimentation inside the browser you could do that without being bothered by types which is great because then you can in the deep of universe the available expressions as if there's on typed yeah NS to develop the application in the in a prototype stage so we can just ignore the types and as you as you get more structure on your program and your interfaces you you you're sprinkling the types where it makes the code more readable and makes it so usable by all our teams so that's also one of the reasons why the optional static types are put in that and I think the if you contrast the these web programming languages to more traditional programming languages like C sharp and Java they completely missed the boat when it comes to incremental execution and I think we just need to face that this is an important part of a web development then you get instant gratification when you do web apps ya know it it it it is interesting both with art and it would type script that that that there's this space in between statically typed and dynamically typed where where these languages allow you to dial it to to where where you want to be if you don't put any type annotations then you're just running in the dynamic world and then you know well certainly in a typescript it's basing your JavaScript at that point but if you start adding type annotations then we will statically check those and make inferences based on those such that we can infer further types and carry those forward and and thereby you know the tooling lights up and we get you coke completion and whatever we get your error checking red squigglies blah blah one of the difference I believe is that in that objects carry one type type information so you can actually do verification of the types as you run if you use a special flag you basically check that the assignment obey the types at runtime mm-hm so if you have a piece of code that's a mixed mode like part of the code is untyped and part of the code is tight we make sure that when you pass objects from the on type code into the type pod at run tide will actually open the the that hides I think that that gets harder when there's only a tool on this generates make sure you're sure now and we we have considered having a debug mode where we inject more checks based on the static type annotations which currently is not there and that will add cost no of no doubt about it I mean like trying to verify that a function object actually has these three parameters that you think it has is non-trivial checking that something implements an interface you know means you've got to go grovel through all the properties and see that the right ones are there and and then it turned if they're functions you need to see you know and that's cheaper him in that the apps are guide I have no doubt it's cheaper and dying yeah because it's sure cheap in in beta JavaScript but basically cannot do it right because the other you can never you can never do all of it no but it a question is whether whether it matters enough you know I mean that that's idea I mean because everything has me it's not see the difference here is like like in a in then let's say you took away types in a language like C for example you took away function prototypes like that go back to before ANSI C right you if you call the function with the wrong arguments your stack would get out of alignment and your machine would go haywire and start executing the characters on the screen or whatever your weird weird stuff would happen right that doesn't happen in in the JavaScript world there's a well-defined behavior for everything there's a well-defined behavior for calling a function with too few arguments or with too many you know now you may not like what the worldís a well defined behavior is but it's not gonna go do bad things in the same sense you know we really so therefore these 8th execution environment it's right saying right so we said I understand the I think one point is here then let's assume you have two teams one team is doing a library where they're sprinkle types static types on the interface and you have another team trying to use that library the the fact that you can validate the types when you cross into that library means that you don't have to debug the other person's code is correct right you can see it at the interface level if it breaks down so certainly it has value that you do that I understand the safe a secure environment but it'll basically amount to the deep down in the other library this type you get any error or by the way in JavaScript I didn't know if people are following that or you don't get errors so if you gather if you have a spelling error why'd you try to address a field all property is not there right now it just keeps on truckin well so I'm just saying that keep calm and carry on which is fine I don't have a that was the intent of the design I assume but again if you run on typed in entire script while you have these peculiarities that are as a developer hard to cope with because you don't if you don't check there as a spelling error right the program will never execute the if statement trying to direct that property like a common one is like the ready state for for an event handler if if you have that all lowercase right it just plows through and nothing happens in that what we try to do as part of the foundation of that is that if you try to access a property or invoke a function along the function is probably wrong but access a property and it's not in the object you will get an exception that point so that you're doing development can actually see something is wrong and they'll certainly catch it earlier than if you just keep on truckin I I think you know it all comes down to static typing is a dial you know and you can put the dial in different places and there's different a cost associated you know both for paying for the programmer and cost at runtime and so forth with the with the different settings and there are there's a certain threshold beyond which it will not make sense anymore for JavaScript because it just gets too expensive you know to try to verify but I do think that that I will say I think with typescript we're capturing a good you know 80 90 percent of the meaningful settings on that dial you know so so I do think there's a lot of value there but it's not gonna solve every problem known to mankind in JavaScript well I I think what it did think well the thing that I I think has has been lacking for for large JavaScript development is a an agreed upon way to reason about libraries how do I know what's in this library and how do I know what's in this other library and how can I in the same language reason about this versus that and are they compatible are they not how do I document them and that you know today it's it's very ad hoc right if I'm using jQuery I gotta go to their website and sort of grovel through one kind of documentation then I fit if I'm mixing it with node then there's another kind of documentation that uses a different vernacular and and or man plus there's really nothing there that you know programmers forget to document a few things or there's this undefined behavior or it's very ad hoc right and and and I think the thing that's useful about you know having the ability to write down these static type definitions and and annotate them with documentation is and it gives you a place to say what it is and have something validate that what you what you made actually is what you said it is it allows you to sleep better at night then have greater confidence that that your app will work you know when when you actually like the point so and the interesting story there is what you say it is isn't really actually what it is when you define his runtime which i think is what wishes but it solves the core problem of being able to at design-time understand what it is yes whereas runtime it's still just JavaScript right and I think that's really cool well I think you know what we've tried to do it or not what we tried well we have done in in in in typescript is basically formalized a static type system that that mirrors the dynamic type system of JavaScript on weeb and we have really worked very hard to stay true to that you know that it really is JavaScript type system and there are no new concepts per per se you know well it is when it runs yeah but we also generate their script and run queue so so that can be translated to so the only difference so the big differences I would say about that it's certainly much easier in typescript because of the tight integration with JavaScript - twin - to interoperate with other libraries yeah I am fully aware of that but as we as we also heard during this conference that there's some websites they download a boatload of functions when they start up and they only run a few percent of the functions right which is a pain for download time and so on so one thing I want to just talk about about with that is also that because it's more structured right yeah also compared to the typescript we can actually do analysis on the complete program and - it's tree-shaking and throw out methods we can prove that are not being executed so that the deployment of either the generated JavaScript code or the snapshot we have on the VM will be minimal much harder to in JavaScript because when you glue it in with existing JavaScript libraries you cannot do that analysis because you dookied access on an object and it's basically the key you use can be a composed string and what have you so it's very hard to do that analysis because of the lack of structure in JavaScript regardless whether you put in typescript on top now I'm curious actually about the tree shaking so so but that only works if everything is statically typed and right I mean if you have anything that's dynamically typed then how do you know whether you're gonna be calling a particular method or not well coincidence if you know that the identify foo is not being used anywhere anywhere I see yeah and that's certainly the simplest form of tree strong and it works amazingly well yeah right so yeah but what do you do is you do you certainly do type inferencing while you do tree shaking where you start with the either the main method or the way you who could opt your arm and then you just plow through oh no no I know and do that yeah yeah and it actually works and it reduces a lot of the code being deployed and that's what big companies want when they deploy a web app they don't want all the stuff that's nothing executed of course so that's a way of doing that and we actually do this the same on top of Jacob at Google by specifying a sort of pseudo types in common so we can figure out how stuff is is connected but that's only if you use a JavaScript in a certain way so all the code has to be written in a clean way so you know exactly how the in the dependencies of the program we could do lots of different things if we yeah absolutely I I don't see why boy I I don't think there's any fundamental difference there we have not built a tree shaker and certainly tree shaking there are certain things we would not be able to to tree shake right we'd be able to tree shake typescript code we probably wouldn't be able to treat JavaScript code so something like jQuery or whatever it's it's not clear that that one could tree shake that you know but but I I will say that that the thing that we find that people do with with typescript is that they use it at development time to provide a better development experience and then they then they get this data verification you know all of their code completion etc etc then they compile to JavaScript and then they use other JavaScript tools like minifiers packagers etc you know if you're using require jas they're tools to package AMD modules together and so so it just is part of an of a tool chain right and in that tool chain there are certain tools that will that will try to shake your your javascript code - and you know some can do some things and others can do other things so so I think you know at the end of the day I don't think either neither dark nor typescript will ever do everything that anyone will want in that tool chain right so but of course not yeah yeah but I still want to get back to that if you integrate if you take a library that's written 40 our script and mix that with typescript are this claim that trishing is very very hot because you cannot compute what's being called you can try but it turns out if you deploy something and suddenly taken out too much right you in trouble because then you don't preserve the semantics that's one of the benefits by having a more structured language for the whole thing then you can do tree shaking and I'll still guarantee that that we can we can do a small competition who can do better tree shaking but I can guarantee you I'm oh right better hand yes on purpose we so it's not by accident we have there really isn't a this or that writer right you've got it's not dark or tie script I script is it's a small show on top of an already existing tool chain called JavaScript at all everything they come along with that whereas yours is more about let's rethink how we do this from the ground up so that's a it's a very different thing the core problem is that both of everybody has to face is JavaScript is what people use and when you use JavaScript you're guaranteed they can run everywhere without having to install virtual machine yes but that's the Stockholm Syndrome I always look backwards you don't innovate so in my mind so the argument about oh we don't so when we did v8 right it was like why do we need fast performance all the programs are running fine I says that's stupidity right so it all boils down to that if you don't innovate try something new right the application developers cannot innovate and this is what you're trying all right is not something versus darts I'm very happy about typescript I think anything that tries to innovate in the web space is great and it's not something that if you do that we cannot do the other I think that's room for for several solutions and that's already now it's not like this is a the only two knurled new language for the web right there's a new one every JavaScript so the more the merrier because at the end of the day it'll be the programmers out there that will make the decision what kind of language on use and if you look back 20 years it was exactly the same there'll be a lot of language to choose from and please do not shoot on developed into only using one language yeah so I just want to say that right so the like typescript a dot is completely open yes we have a virtual machine and we can transfer JavaScript right one of the reasons why we we open sourced it also the word machine is of course that when we show this nice property of Roundup Pro program we want everybody to take it if they like it right so we are still not trying to to come up with a proprietary technology here we're trying to sort of breed the web basically is also open source and runs everywhere and it's not about only using a visual studio in fact yesterday they ship three you can run it in the bi you can run it in Emacs you can run it in but they went out with just more than just visual studio and running on Windows so I think everybody is into that same mindset it's cool to see these innovative solutions very different though they are mm-hm no I'm I'm certainly excited about the the the open source stuff I was just like like right before we sat down I was looking there were like nine Forks created out of out of the type group Depot already so so yeah yeah can't wait to see what ensues we hope yeah we're both in the business and yeah thank you thanks Josh it's great

Channel: DartlangTV

Views: 11,215

Keywords: javascript, dart, Gilad Bracha, conference, typescript, Lars Bak, Erik Meijer, dartlang, GOTO 2012, Dart Programming Language, Anders Hejlsberg

Id: 5AqbCQuK0gM

Length: 43min 13sec (2593 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 09 2013

Reddit Comments

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