An Interview With Susan Heck On Beth Moore

welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen my  name is justin peters i hope that you and your   family are doing well today i want to thank you  very much for joining me and it is my special   honor and privilege today to be interviewing  susan heck susan is a dear friend of ours kathy   and me my wife kathy kathy and i met susan and  her husband doug about nine or so years ago when   we were living in edmond oklahoma and while  we were living in edmond we discovered that   doug susan's husband's pastoring a church in  broken arrow oklahoma and once we made that   realization we started attending their church  grace community church in broken arrow which   is right outside of tulsa and we drove about 105  miles one way every sunday but we did it joyfully   because doug and susan became fast friends of ours  and uh doug is a wonderful wonderful guy fantastic   preacher if you are if you happen to be watching  this in the in the tulsa neck of the woods and   you're looking for a good church i would highly  commend grace community church a broken arrow to   you uh very good church uh but i am interviewing  susan today and susan has her own ministry and uh   i will tell you this because susan probably won't  tell you this herself but i'll i'll toot her own   horn a little bit but susan has the entire new  testament memorized the entire new testament   as well as susan ecclesiastes and you're working  on job now is that right genesis genesis you're   working on genesis okay so so all 27 books of the  new testament ecclesiastes jonah and jonah enjoy yeah so susan really knows her stuff but um  we're going to be talking about beth moore   today and the concerns with beth moore and i  figured it would be just a tremendous um help   to have a female bible teacher on uh to to kind of  give us her perspective and as you can tell from   the number of books that she has memorized  susan really knows her stuff so susan tell us a   little bit about yourself and what you do in your  ministry well i serve the lord it's such a desire   that i have to equip women in the scriptures  um when god saved me at the age of 30 30.   he gave me a hunger for his word and i just  couldn't put it down and so i began to memorize   books of the bible and after doug graduated from  seminary we moved back to oklahoma he started a   church and i wanted to teach the women the bible  so actually i went to a bookstore and i couldn't   find anything so i just thought well write my  own so started writing and for equipping my   women and then through the encouragement of my  husband martha peace and some others i had them   published in continuing publishing and continue  writing bible studies and not ever expecting to   be asked to speak somewhere or do anything like  that but through the just the lord i haven't   sought any promotion of myself but just through  his gracious kindness i've been able to travel and   throughout the us and and even overseas and teach  the bible to women and now have a youtube channel   and a lot of other things and so getting the word  out and it's a it's such a great thing to see how   women are so hungry for scripture and a lot of  women started memorizing the bible scripture   through my influence i'm very thankful for  that so they're seeing truth from error   and so i've been doing this for about  30 years now and traveling for about 25   and this year is picking up a little bit now that  cove is kind of hope hoping coming to occult so   it's going to be a it's going to be a joy to be  able to see some of these precious sisters again   so it's it's been a great journey justin  love have really loved it so yeah yeah well   everywhere i go i have ladies come up to me  and tell me that that you've been a tremendous   impact had a tremendous impact on their lives and  and so it's a great encouragement to me as well   um so susan we're going to talk about beth moore  today and i guess let me just start with kind of   a general question and i'm very grateful that  you're here because obviously as being a woman   you you can't be charged with being a sexist  or being against against women which is kind   of the common accusation that comes my way  in other men's way you know john arthur one   of you know when we raise red flags about beth  moore oh you're sexist you're misogynist you   you know you don't like women and so be kind  of hard to charge you with not liking women so   um tell us a little bit about your concerns  with beth moore your evaluation of beth moore   well the first time i heard her name was through  a lady who was discipling me and she wanted to   know what i thought about her i didn't even know  her she said if i get you a video will you watch   it and i said sure so it was a vhs so that tells  you how long ago put it in the tv one evening doug   and i sat down to watch it and after 15 minutes  he said i'm going to bed and i said well i want   to watch the whole thing in its entirety so  i can give a proper critique to my friend   so i did i watched the whole thing and honestly  when i turned the television off i bowed my head   and i said lord that was disgusting and if you  want to use me for your glory i'll go wherever   you want me to go and that was actually the  beginning of when things started happening with   with the master ministries but just on that one  vhs she i still can remember it was really bizarre   she said you know the problem with christians is  they have christian uh spiritual deficit disorder   and the cure is they need to be still and know  he's god and i thought what what is she even   talking about and so there were just little  things like that throughout the video that   disturbed me and really upset me that  she was adulterating the word of god   and very psychologized even way back then and so  my concerns about her justin are poor hermeneutics   she has terrible rules of interpreting scripture  she is very narcissistic she is very dramatic   she doesn't exegete scripture uh she  doesn't apply scripture the things that   i've seen i have looked at her twitter account  her instagram account other things like that   and i have screenshoted several things and and  have taken those with me on on journeys when   people you know challenged me about beth moore  i just hold up my phone and i say let me ask you   is this a woman you want to emulate is this  a godly woman and so the proof isn't i'm not   trying out to condemn her i i feel great sorrow  for her because she is the blind leading the blind   they're both going to fall in the ditch and  unless she repents the blackness of darkness   is reserved for her forever that doesn't that  doesn't make me happy i pray for beth moore   every week i pray that she'll repent i  pray that she'll consent to wholesome truth   she's leading so many women astray and it it  grieves my heart i'm i'm not happy about it it   grieves me and so uh i also i i don't know  but there's something in the last few years   it's even she's just gotten bizarre it's beyond  poor hermeneutics and poor exegete it is bizarre   to me to the point that at times i've thought  is she medicated is she on is she drinking i   i don't know and i can't know because i don't  know her personally but very concerned about her   but you know i was encouraged i'll have to say  she's coming to my hometown in a couple of weeks   and there's a big advertisement it was interesting  to look at the comment section because i would say   90 of the people that commented said no way she's  dangerous uh i wouldn't pay a penny to see her   she's a heretic i'd rather have a root canal than  see or some guy said so i mean i'm not again i'm   not trying to condemn her i'm just saying i'm  thankful i think at least uh people are waking   up and that's here in town where i live where it's  a word of very heavily word of faith as you well   know oral roberts and kenneth hagin are here oh  yeah and uh right so i'm very thankful that even   in my hometown there are people that are waking up  to her her ridiculousness so yeah yeah i agree in   the last several years uh saying to 2016 she  has just become she's become very outspoken   about racial issues gender issues uh she is  johnny on the spot anytime there's a whiff   of something in the news dealing with racism  she pounces on that and is very quick to condem   the person that has been accused of whatever and   several times she's been proven factually wrong  but uh yeah it's just um unhinged almost it   is it is i'm very i am very grieved about it  so i have i have many concerns about her and   but i do believe that uh through people like you  and uh michelle leslie elizabeth pratt and others   i do think that more and more women are  becoming very aware of the concerns and   the danger it is to follow her yeah right and  she's really left the authority of scripture   uh the scripture to her is no longer authoritative  it's no longer inerrant she kind of writes her own   sometimes i think that's very dangerous for  anybody who's a teacher of the scriptures   so absolutely yeah yeah what what is so what are  some of the effects that you see in the ladies   because you not only travel and teach ladies and  that's going to get we're going to get into the   complementarian issues here in just a second but  um what are some of the effects of her teaching   that you have noticed in the ladies that you  counsel you counsel a lot of ladies as well i do   and in fact that has increased quite a bit through  the last year counseling uh new women discipling   new women but the things i've seen mainly are they  don't know the bible they know quips and quotes of   the bible or phrases of the bible i can do all  things through christ who strengthens me or and   everything i'm to be content but they they don't  understand the context of what they're saying   so the bible taken out of context i've noticed  a lot of that very psychologized using a lot of   psychologized terms that are not in scripture so  also i think very weak they're running around in   their i could say like howard hendrick said  running around in their spiritual diapers   so uh they're not overcoming sin i've noticed  that very they're not knowing what to do in a   difficult marriage they don't know what to do  about uh sexual just all kinds of things because   they don't know how to go to god's word and  see what he has to say about those areas and so   um it's more of a they base their christian  life on their emotions and how they feel   instead of faith the ju and i i remind them the  just lived by faith not by our feelings if i   lived by my feelings i'd be a monster probably but  we live we live by our faith our my faith is in   christ alone and not in some feeling that i might  have so that's one that's a lot of the things that   i've noticed uh they're very weak uh just weak  christians if if christian at all i honestly i've   had a lot of opportunity to share the gospel uh  with some of these women and i wish i could tell   whoever's listening just the amazing several women  have come to faith in christ in this last year   through seeing some of my youtubes and realizing  they weren't even redeemed and so uh very thankful   for that the lady that travels with me is doing a  zoom bible study class on my first peter class and   she thinks several ladies on there have just  come to faith in the last year because they're   getting the meat of the word so uh yeah so  that's exciting yeah indeed and i've watched   a lot of beth moore i've watched a lot of her  teaching on youtube and you know television and   read some of her stuff and i'm not saying that  she's never presented the gospel but but one   thing that is noticeably lacking kathy  my wife kathy and i both notice this is   i'd it is rare that you that you hear her actually  present the clear simple gospel is that your   observation as well yes i have in the few times  i've seen things on her i haven't you rarely hear   the gospel of repentance that's what i've noticed  is missing if they're the gospel of repenting of   your sin and then also the lordship of jesus  christ those were those are the two things i   would say are missing sure she gets the the  facts right jesus christ died for our sins   according to the scripture he was buried  he rose again according to the scriptures   she's got that right but she forgets repentance  and that's over and over repeated in acts repent   repent and believe the gospel jesus preached  that john the baptist came preaching repentance   so uh i don't you don't hear that nor do i see it  in her life from what i can see on her teachings   on her social media accounts she's a very i  want to say one more thing the other thing   i've noticed about women that follow her  they're hateful and they're vindictive um   i have never seen the likings of it honestly  um when i went on uh i think as doreen virtue   interviewed me a year or so ago the the women  that attacked me were that were beth moore fans   it was vicious and mean and you know the  bible says you become like your teacher   a student will become like their teacher and so  to me that says a lot that there's no humility the   servant of the lord must not strive but be humble  and so we need to be humble as we confront even   even the the heretic of course after the first  or second admission you get away from them but   but we're supposed to go with meekness so that  they'll be recovered from the snare of the devil   so i don't see that with her followers i have i  have yet to see one that has approached me with   kindness and humility and but i always respond  with kindness and humility one lady even thanked   me she said wow she said i'm surprised you  responded that way and i said well you know this   this is god's word this is truth so anyway that's  another thing i've noticed with her followers yeah   and i would echo that as well i tell people from  time to time um you know i obviously get my fair   share of criticism from word of faith folks  you know obviously and uh but i tell you i   i do not get attacked as viciously by word of  faith people as i do beth moore supporters i agree   and that tells me something's fundamentally wrong  you know i've noticed that even in our own church   my husband as you know is loves people loves  god's word he's very friendly but you know what   that's one thing that people say about our church  it's very friendly well that comes from the top   the the sheep have become like the shepherd and  so that's the same way it is with beth moore her   you become like her and so i that grieves me  even more the type of women that she's grooming   in this christianity that she has so i use  that term lightly yeah yeah exactly yeah   and susan you're not uh you're not  jealous right because i know that's gonna   oh absolutely those their ladies are gonna say oh  you're just jealous of beth and she has a bigger   platform than you and she's so you know what i  don't want a bigger platform honestly i don't   my husband says the worst thing that could happen  to anybody is to be famous in the christian world   and honestly justin those that have become  famous it's the exception that hasn't fallen   fallen doctrinally or morally we've just seen it  with ravi zacharias we've seen it with josh harris   i mean a week doesn't go by that somebody that we  might know of has fallen and it's usually someone   that's they think they're something and i i pray  often the lord will keep me and i i'm thankful for   a husband who loves me enough uh to reign me in  if i need to be and so um i i think no i am not   jealous if she would repent and start preaching  the bible teaching the bible to women uh i would   be happy because i'd be more more women out there  that could hear the truth so i want god i want   god to be glorified right so i don't i don't want  any self glory so right indeed and susan we have   to be delicate with where i want to go now but  what you just said kind of spurred something um   and this is not gossip because beth moore has  stated this publicly on many occasions this is   not gossip but uh she's very open and has openly  admitted and said that her husband keith is not   is not really interested in the bible uh she says  one tweet i think she said i don't have in front   of me but my my man is not much for doctrine or  theology you know he doesn't read the bible much   i i mean there's multiple multiple times that she  has said that now she clearly loves keith we're   not saying that she loves keith and keith loves  her you know we're not saying that anything is   wrong in those regards but  uh but by her own admission   her husband who is supposed to be the spiritual  leader in the home is for whatever reason not   doing that uh cannot do that so what would your  do you think that plays a role in in what we see   from whether it's beth moore or or any lady who  tries to have a ministry and does not have a   um a spiritual head if you  will in the home does not have   a husband who can lead her spiritually what  are what are your thoughts on that oh i think   it can have a serious impact on her because as  uh paul says in ephesians the husband washes   the wife with the water with the word and uh he  is to be the head and so i i if i didn't have   my husband who is who is greatly knowledgeable  of scripture and theology and has studied we've   been married 45 years and i keep threatening to  bury him with the yellow marker because he just   that's been his life is his books in the bible and  when i met him he had most of the new testament   testament memorized and so i'm so thankful for  that and i thought if something happens i would   go to my son or my son-in-law who are both in the  ministry for guidance and health because i need to   be under the authority of someone who's stronger  than me more knowledgeable than i am and as is   a male and so i my husband and i know through the  year single women who don't have a head sometimes   they tend to get off on things they shouldn't get  off on conspiracies and different things and they   don't have anybody to rein them in and say this  isn't a good way so yes i would say her husband   keith um i've seen different things like that  too where she said he was building her a place   to study and he doesn't study much i've seen those  things and i think that is a big concern so who is   who is her head who is holding her accountable  who who is in charge of living proof ministries i   you know i don't i don't know so i'd say that is  fundamentally a problem even biblically it's a   problem uh with the role of men and women and and  where we're supposed to be under their authority   and even obeying those that have the rule over us  they watch for our souls so that's a big problem   right and i think i know you well enough  and know your theology well enough that   let's just say your husband doug was not who he  is uh and he is very sound he's pastor of course   but let's just say he was a nominal christian  or someone who maybe kind of professed to be   a christian but really showed no interest in  studying scripture didn't understand theology you wouldn't be doing what you're doing right now  probably not no because i would feel like i needed   to be sensitive to him as a as a nominal believer  i think that my role would be very very different   in trying to win him in a different way i think  the other could be more of a irritant to him   and i have to say now my husband he's my biggest  supporter there's been many times i've said you   want me to stop traveling and speaking and he says  no the work of the lord goes on i want you to use   your gifts for the god's glory so if he weren't  saying that to me i would pull back and i mean   that would be a no-brainer to me so i think that  could become a deterrent for the gospel for him   more than a an endearing of the gospel to him and  also usurping a role that i shouldn't have right   right okay so that's a a good segue into our  discussion on complementarianism and uh for those   who are watching maybe you're not familiar  with these terms complementarianism is the   belief the biblical belief that men and women are  of equal value before god galatians 3 very clear   about that all scripts are very clear about that  we have equal value before god we are as believers   we are indwelt by the same holy spirit as men and  women but we do have different roles complementary   roles um as opposed to egalitarianism which is  the belief unbiblical but people claim it to   be uh that men and women can do the same things  uh fulfill the same roles a woman can pastor a   woman can preach to men so that's the egalitarian  belief and the complementary belief is that to   which uh of course susan and i would hold two so  uh susan beth moore made big news just a few days   ago as of this recording we're recording this on  april the 10th so three days ago on april the 7th   beth moore came out and i'll just read this  tweet for our listeners or viewers she says   let me be blunt when you functionally  treat complementarianism a doctrine of man   all caps man as if it belongs among the matters  of first importance yea as a litmus test for where   one stands on inerrancy and authority of scripture  you are the ones who have misused scripture you   went too far i beg your forgiveness where i was  complicit i could not see it complementarianism   for what it was until 2016. i plead your  forgiveness for how i just submitted to it   and supported it and taught it i trusted that the  motives were godly i have not lost my mind nor my   doctrine just my naivete and and then she ends by  and dudes do not dm me spend your energy tending   to your house so um so it was last month that  beth moore left the southern baptist convention   and undoubtedly that was to free herself from  the what she perceived to be the artificial   restraints on her on letting her full theology  be known and so now just a few weeks removed from   that she has come out of the egalitarian closet  she says that she is no longer complementarian   she apologizes for having believed it and even  taught it and asked people's forgiveness so um take it away susan what are your thoughts oh  goodness oh i i when i saw that i just grieved   but you know i was talking to my husband and he  said well i'm not surprised he she wants to open   the door to bigger venues bigger you know word  of faith people this just opens the door for   you know all inclusive whatever case or it'll  be it'll be just amazing to see what happens   from here on out i expect her to begin to adopt  same-sex marriage you know she never did answer   our letter on that that several of us ladies did  uh transgender i expect it to be a full gamut   of wherever the world's going she will conform  to the aeon of this world and uh it that was so   grieving to me and justin she will be sending  so much confusion to women and i i saw that and   i went to her twitter account and you know i i  was just grieved at the amount of women that were   applauding her and giving her that steam to keep  up that ridiculous idea and as i mentioned earlier   at the beginning she's left the authority of  scripture the scripture is no longer authoritative   it's not sufficient it's uh not everything she  needs for life and godliness and so she's you   know the lo the chains have been loose now no  telling where she's gonna go yeah so and and she   self-identified as complementary and up until very  recently she always said oh i'm complementarian   what would you say to those in fact i'm looking at  it right now uh an article in the atlantic which   is dated 2018 so just three years ago it actually  says like other southern baptists moore considers   herself a complementarian she believes the bible  teaches that men and women have distinctive roles   and that men should hold positions of authority  and leadership over women in the home and in   the church yet her husband keith a retired  plumber sees his vocation as helping his   wife succeed that's what i do he told me i lay  blocks so oj can run referring to o.j simpson   so and twice in this article just three years  ago she called herself a complementarian   and yet at the same time whenever she gets an  invitation to preach at a church on a sunday   morning i shouldn't say whenever but but she  does preach on occasion on a sunday morning   if a church invites her to do that you know  mixed uh genders there men and women together   good morning church good morning church  i don't know why jesus loved me enough to let me serve here this morning but i am  mighty glad he did anybody say amen this morning can you be a complementarian and still   say it's okay for a woman to preach on a sunday  morning as long as the pastor asks you to do it no   no because i mean you know what the  word says i permit not a woman to usurp   authority over a man and first timothy is written  so that you know how to behave in the house of god   which is the church of god the pillar and ground  of the truth so that's a whole book written on   church order what do we do in the church and  in the church i am not allowed as a woman   to usurp or teach a man that is very  clear has to do with the created order   for adam's first form then eve so uh no she is  not allowed but well i think now i mean according   to the plain meaning of her text that three days  ago that she has renounced complementarianism but   i mean it's one of those things like you could  tell by the things that she was teaching by the   things that she was tweeting for the last several  years she was not complementarian even though she   held on a title but she was clearly not  complementarian now she's just made it very clear   now that she's been freed from the as i said  the artificial restraints of the sbc and trying   to keep that audience she's just freed from  that and so she's gonna and i agree with you   and i this is gonna be a future video but  talking about uh the homosexual issues but   but uh so let me let me push back a little bit  um okay and play devil's advocate a little bit   because the egalitarians have a few arguments  you know and they're in their quiver and they   they shoot those at us complementarians and uh one  of them would be deborah well what about deborah   deborah was a judge in the old testament  so i'm sure susan you've encountered this   argument what would you say to those who try  to play the deborah yeah well she was a judge   and she was a judge not a not a preacher not a  pastor not an elder if a man desires the office   of a bishop he desires a good thing a man not a  woman so yes i've been also you have to look at   the end of judges every man was doing what was  right in his own eyes it was a horrible time in   the nation of israel the guy cut up his concubine  in 12 pieces and sent her all you know i mean it   was it was a perverse wicked time men were there  was obviously a vacuum a leadership vacuum of men   and that was very evident by barack and so um  you know god appointed her as a judge she was   the fourth judge but she wasn't a preacher she she  sang that song and in judges five her and bear had   that song but that like miriam and you know in  the old testament with moses you know his sister   and i don't i don't see the issue with deborah  she was never up in a synagogue preaching   the bible right she was appointed at the  time for that purpose in a very perverse   time in the nation of israel she was tending  to civil and military issues that was her whole   reasoning so uh that doesn't fly anywhere  i haven't seen anybody really proof text   that very well to say that that gives women the  right to get up on a sunday morning and preach to   an audience of people i don't see it that's really  going beyond scripture which we're forbidden to do   yeah absolutely and and not the least of which  reasons i mean we're talking about old testament   yeah opposed to new testament new covenant church  and you know you're trying to prepare apples and   oranges there it's just right well and when i when  people talk to me about this i just i the proof is   on them i say show me in the bible where you had a  female pastor it says if a man desires the office   none of the apostles were none of the disciples  were women they were men always and so   to me it's a no-brainer unless you're  going to do what she's doing i believe   is denying the authority of scripture it is no  longer authoritative it's going to be the bible   according to beth and that's very dangerous  and the bible says if you add or subtract   you know what happens it's not a good thing yeah  that's exactly right not a good thing at all   and uh her daughter melissa moore writes  a lot for her and helps her with her   studies and melissa moore for years has  been openly um endorsing and embracing   female pastors gay christians lgbtqia xyz  whatever letter christians uh openly so and um   beth moore hasn't done well she has uh she  did endorse a a lady who tweeted one time   and maybe i can find this put in the video but  this lady tweeted and she said next sunday will   be my first sunday as the pastor of fill in the  blank church whatever yeah i saw that did you see   that yeah oh yeah i saw that yep yeah and beth  moore commended her encouraged yeah i saw that so on april 18th 2020 lisa saunders tweeted  this i assumed my new and first pastorate on   easter sunday i was on the phone preaching and  singing with my new parishioners i thank these   dear people for trusting me to shepherd them i  am now busily seeking god's wisdom on shepherding   from afar and she says that in reference to the  covid restrictions it's daunting but there's grace   and beth moore replied to her and said this  thank god there is no limit to his grace i   had to take a few minutes last night and mourn  what may never be again and steady myself for the   blessings ahead these are new ministry days lisa  and he who calls us knows exactly how to equip us   so when beth moore sees a lady saying that she  is about to assume her first pastorate and she is   seeking god's wisdom on shepherding beth moore  does not reply by saying hey lisa since you're   wanting god's wisdom on shepherding the  first thing to know about shepherding   is that that is a role in responsibility that god  has delegated to men only no she doesn't say that   she doesn't correct her she encourages her beth  moore cheers her on and just out of curiosity i   did a little bit of research and i found this lisa  saunders this is a screenshot of her whatever you   call it on twitter home page or whatever but uh  look at her look at how she describes herself lisa   saunders yep a woman pastor so she's very open  about this and then quite proud of it and then   look at the description i'm lisa saunders wife mom  grammy pastor and look at this prophetic decreer   declarer and atmosphere shifter so not only is  she a female pastor she's also word of faith   and apparently more of the social justice  stripe of word of faith but i mean this   she's word of faith and she's a female  i mean this is a theological hot mess   so beth moore can claim all day long  how she's complementary and clearly   she is anything but complementarian and  she has not been for a very long time   now back to susan so yeah so she's she hasn't been  complimentarian no she hasn't she's just finally   come out of the closet so yeah and we'll  have a lot of more coming out of the closet   in the days to come i really believe that unless  she repents we will it'll get just worse and worse   evil men become worse and worse so it's not going  to get better that's right that's right and and   one of the things you're saying that um i would  now i would not say that beth moore's studies   her books have ever been good or sound but you can  go back to the stuff that she was putting out 30   years ago 20 30 years ago and it was less bad if i  could say it that way than it is now it's like her   her she's progressing in the exact opposite  direction of what you would expect from someone   who is actually qualified to be doing what she's  doing right your teaching is not getting better   it's getting worse it's getting it is more bizarre  would you say it is when she first started my   husband would call her a female charles stanley uh  very psychologized you know she has a cute little   outline three points in a poem and you know she  he said she's very dramatic and you know she's a   charismatic speaker i don't mean that sense in  the charismatic movement but she's got a lot   of charisma and that's very attractive to women  unfortunately women and i am a woman so if you're   listening and you're a woman i'm not criticizing  our gender but women don't sometimes think   biblically and intellectually with their minds  they think with their emotions so that appeals   to their emotions right and that kind of teaching  but it doesn't leave you to take anything home of   substance that you can then go home and then  how do i be a better wife to my husband or how   do i help you know love this neighbor next door  that is driving me crazy or you know it doesn't   it might give you a warm fuzzy up your spine but  it doesn't last yeah does not last exactly right   all right well let me ask you about  another uh arrow in the egalitarian quiver   and uh that is dealing with aquila and priscilla  acts chapter 18 because i hear this a lot too well   equivalent they instructed paul both of them  together they instructed paul more i mean not   right apollos paulus yeah yeah apollo the way  of the way of baptism yeah yeah so is priscilla   an argument a valid argument for egalitarianism  yeah again i i don't see it she wasn't a pastor   in fact they took him aside aside privately and  explained to him the way of god more perfectly   regarding his heir of baptism and some people  believe that that the greek order is priscilla   was first there and that she might have been but  most of the talking the study i've done on her   in church history she was supposed to be a little  bit more knowledgeable than her husband but again   if you and i and kathy and doug were sitting  here at my house right now and we got into   a theological discussion and i would say  hey justin have you ever considered this   there's nothing wrong with that at all but i'm  not standing again in the local gathering of god's   people on a sunday morning or wednesday night or  whatever and preaching exegeting scripture to you   right but i'm doing it in my home in a casual  way there's nothing wrong with that and that's   where i see priscilla and aquila again never  says she was a pastor she wasn't a deacon she   wasn't a bishop she wasn't any of that so yeah i  don't see the again i don't see the argument it's   like they're trying to do spiritual gymnastics to  me i and again the proof is on them i always say   it's the proof is on you you prove it biblically  i'll believe it but they can't right yeah and   as you mentioned a few minutes ago it's not just a  flip of the coin that all of the disciples all of   the apostles were men you know it's not that was  not just a random decision that was intentional   it was well yeah for sure yeah  you're right yeah and none of the   books in the bible none of the 66 books were  written by women all of them written by men so   this is not just a random thing this is this  is intentional and let me bring out that god   there's nothing wrong with women i mean the  bible's full of women there's four of them in g   in jesus genealogy god loves women there's no  like you quote mentioned galatians 3 you know with   christ there's no male or female we're equal in  his eyes as far as our value as far as redemption   redemption but as far as what he's created  for us to be on earth is very different   yeah absolutely and i've told people in in some  of my own preaching i've said kathy is kathy isn't   dwelt by the same holy spirit who indwells  me and you know there there have been times   uh that she has brought things to my attention  and i've realized you know she was right like   you're right you know so there there's nothing  there's nothing wrong with that but it's a it's a   totally different thing when you're  talking about the gathered church   on a sunday you know under the authority of a  man who was executing scripture and that's that's   um what about what about junior in romans 16  yeah they're almost 16 full of women phoebe and   uh we have forget nerius her sister mary there's  a lot of them in there romans 16 so a lot of a lot   of men women that paul mentions well it says she's  a note among the apostles is what king james says   she's noted among the apostles my understanding  of that is that she was the apostles just made   notation of her she was recognized by them she  must have been some kind of a great woman i don't   you know can't find you can't find out a lot about  her but uh she was just noted among the apostles   it doesn't say she was an apostle you can't you  look at the greek language it does not say she was   an apostle it just says she was noted among them  like you know i'm i serve in my local church and   maybe my elders would say there's five of them say  you know susan's noted among us she does you know   she's heads of women's ministry she teaches  the ladies the bible she disciples lots of   women in the church so she's noted she's given  recognition or whatever something like that but   again justin all those three women is like i prove  it uh the burden of proof is on them not on me   it's on them to try to figure out how to  make that work in the bible yeah yeah it's   not there no no it's not dude they're really um  they're isolating these texts they're they're   taking them to an extent that they're they  obviously were never intended to be taken to right   stretched beyond any credulity um one other one  other argument that i hear a lot well what about   the women at the tomb it was it was women who  first reported the resurrection so how can you say   that women shouldn't preach when it was the women  who were at the tomb and they went and reported to   the disciples that jesus was raised from the dead  is that a valid argument no not at all and again   there's nothing there that said they preached  they didn't go run to the nearest synagogue and   and push the priest aside and say let me  let me have the podium they didn't do that   and you know the one of the last people jesus  saw was a woman the woman that washed his feet   with her hair and anointed him with oil  and kissed his feet i i think it's a great   to me it's a humbling thing to see all the women  in the bible whether they're at the tomb whether   they're at the the cross uh jesus loved women  he loved women he loved men he loved children   he loved all his you know what those he created  and uh so i i don't again where is the where's the   proof in that they just ran and told the disciples  hey he's risen from the dead that's not preaching   yeah it's reporting yeah it's just reporting what  happened or rhoda you know when she saw peter you   know that you know they she can't went back and  told the told what had happened to him but he'd   gotten out of prison so yes again she wasn't  rhoda wasn't preaching either so i don't know i   guess we could go through every woman from eve to  to jezebel at the end of revelation i don't know   right right yeah so i don't know  crazy crazy crazy but you know when   when you i think when you are in a situation  like that and you want to prove your doctrinal   argument you will rip scripture out of  its context to try to make it say anything   that you want to say for proof of argument and for  proof of being right and it's not about me being   right it's about me rightly dividing the word  of truth that's what i'm supposed to be about so   that's right um i always just put it back on them  you show me from scripture and i'll i'll change   exactly yeah that's what john mcarthur says you  convinced me otherwise you're not changed yeah   so well susan how does this flesh out in your own  ministry when you're it let me put it this way   so you travel and speak at ladies conferences uh  what is what is your what is the complementarian   view your convictions on that how does that  fleshed out in your own ministry um if you   were ever asked by a pastor to speak to a mixed  group of men how would how would you handle that   i don't and i won't um and usually when i go some  i mean they know that it's for women only but i   have been in places where uh i was in a situation  i think you know about this years ago where the   men wouldn't leave and so the man who had  invited me got up and he said until you men   leave because it was a mixed audience but then  they were supposed to have breakout sessions and   the men wouldn't leave and so he said  she's not going to start till you men leave   and i made some men mad i do biblical counseling  and so when i go to the counseling conferences   i do workshop for women and it says very plainly  for women only but i have to have my friend that   travels with me debbie stand at the door because  often women try or men try to get in there   and so now i will say this there are times  in some churches are funny about this they   have a man do the recording so he'll start  the recording and run out the back door   but sometimes they're not able to do that and so  you know i don't i don't feel like i'm breaking my   rule or god's rule but sometimes in those  situations there's not much i can do but it's   very clear that they know i do not teach men and  so i really haven't had a lot of issue with that   because i go to more churches that are like-minded  but i have been to some places where um   they've wanted me to bend that rule and i haven't  i was in a church one time where they had to   have security it was a very dangerous area in  massachusetts and they had men uh with guns you   know to protect us and so um not in that situation  i wasn't quite sure what to do but it was for our   protection they said it was a bad area of town or  something i don't know so you know those kinds of   things are kind of hard but um but no i i make  it very clear and i've i remember one time i was   doing a dinner sometime for the ladies and the  men that were serving wanted to stay in and i   told the lady who invited me i said they need  to go so she told them and they left so okay   yeah yeah that's kind of my rule right right  and and kathy and i have long appreciated your   consistency in that and uh your fidelity to  scripture and and you don't feel slighted in   any way uh you know the egalitarians will say oh  women are just as spiritual as men are they can   have you know they're just as close with god  you know and to say that a woman can't preach   you know you're demeaning women you don't you  don't feel any of that do you in your own no   i tell you what i do feel when i don't know how  beth does it and others do it because if i were   to get up in the podium and start and there were  men there i would feel so such a heavy conviction   before the lord i don't think i don't know how i  could do it i think my spirit would be so grieved   now does that mean men can't read my stuff i  mean you read one of my books to critique it   but that doesn't mean that i'm i'm again i'm not  standing in this in the church preaching to men   uh but i know that there have been men that have  read my books um that's up to you know it's up   to them i don't know why but uh you know but i i  would feel so heavily convicted i i would not be   able to do it i would feel such condemnation from  the lord that i was sinning um i couldn't do it   right so i don't i don't feel like  i'm missing out on anything i've got   so many women that want help and in their lives  right now that i i'm not missing out on anything   right and you're doing titus 2 right the older  women younger women and amen and i'm grateful for   that the lord's given me a great ministry i'm i'm  so grateful and humbled by it and thankful right   and we're not saying that a woman does not  that some women don't have the spiritual gift   of teaching clearly you do but you use that  gift properly and you teach other women which is   what scripture says yep yep well susan if i  can ask you kind of go off on a little bit of   a tangential direction here i get emails pretty  real frequently from ladies who are basically   in a situation in which they are believers they  are growing in christ they're growing in their   knowledge and understanding of scripture but their  husbands don't share that desire they're they're   either unbelievers or they're very weak believers  um in all likelihood unbelievers um and sometimes   even ladies will say my husband doesn't want me to  go to church so what does a what would your advice   be to women in that kind of a situation uh i want  to go to church i'm growing in the lord my husband   doesn't want me to my husband's not what would  your what would your encouragement be to them   well in that situation what i would do is uh  encourage her first of all to find an older   woman that can help her and mentor her and pour  into her pray for her hold her accountable for   being the wife she needs to be the first peter  3 wife and then i would also encourage her to   obey the lord over her husband but let me  let me explain what i mean by that let's say   she wants to go to church i our church we have  sunday morning sunday night tuesday night we   have wednesday night prayer meeting i would  tell her so that her husband can still lead   is that honey i you know i love you um i want  to be under your authority but i the lord is my   ultimate authority and he commands me in  hebrews to not forsake the assembling so   i do want to go and i will go but i what service  would you like me to go to you know you yummy go   sunday morning sunday night so that he still  is the head but she can't deny her lord uh in   order to obey her husband but again i i think she  needs a lot of training how to do that with all   respect and graciousness uh that she might incur  persecution from that but then i would teach her   how to handle persecution from her husband things  like that so it's more than just a pat answer   and how to do that graciously and kindly but  i never ever tell a woman to disobey the lord   so that she can obey her husband but there's a way  to do that that's kind and gracious and still with   an attitude of humility and submission right it's  hard it's hard it is hard and i usually go through   the excellent wife with her by martha peace i  think that's a great book on just teaching her   what the role is of the wife to be submissive and  how to respect him how to love him uh how to be   the keeper at home she used to be and things like  that so i usually go that through that with her   yeah yeah the excellent wife and the exemplary  husband they're kind of too companion but   kathy and i both read those well i haven't  read the exemplary wifi i mean the excellent   wife i've read the exemplary husband so  uh i would commend those those books uh   yes to our viewers here absolutely very good yeah  that's a hard situation very hard yeah it is it is   hard um well susan where can where can ladies find  out more about your ministry what's your website   uh www.withthemaster.org so also they can find me  on youtube now i have a lady in my church running   my youtube channel we have five of my whole series  on there plus we're trying to get them all up   i've written 13 studies to date working on number  14. so they can get those there and that's a good   place to go too but the website will lead them  to all that so okay all right excellent and um   susan as we close if um by some chance beth  moore ends up watching this would you have a   a word to beth moore yes i would love to  i would you know my daughter lives in the   houston area and i've always wanted to figure  out how i could go to her beth moore's house   with an open bible so if beth moore is listening i  would love to sit down with you with an open bible   and talk about god's word together and reason  with her um i would encourage her to uh back up   everything that she is doing even now by the word  of god that was the other thing i noticed when she   did that tweet about complementarianism do you  know that she had no scripture to back up her view   and i don't know if you noticed all  the people that were heralding her   had no scripture yeah none whatsoever yeah that to  me beth is a is a dangerous place to be very very   dangerous if you can't say thus says the lord then  she really should probably step out of that role   of teaching women the bible so i would encourage  her to step out of that role unless she can repent   and find you know i'm sure by  now she's got plenty of money to   to live and i don't mean that unkindly sure she's  made a lot of money on her books and her teaching   you know her speaking and just be enjoy her  grandchildren in her her home you know but she   shouldn't be up teaching the bible if she can't  teach it and it's in its fullness and context so   that's what i would say to her yeah and i would  say even if she did by god's grace come to that   realization uh then then she would need she would  need her own time in arabia you know like paul had   before he before he started his his ministry  so she would because there's there's a lot of   a lot of deprogramming that that she's gotta  that she would have to do a lot of re-evaluation   well the warnings to false teachers in  second timothy and jude are frightening   to me they're terrifying yes and so i i don't  understand it but you know so many of them   are deluded they've deceived themselves and  so she's probably just doesn't see it i mean   she's probably blind you can't see it so it's very  dangerous and yet she's been confronted unlovingly   maybe some people have confronted or not lovingly  but yeah i tell you if i had people coming after   me like they go after her i think i would stop  and think and listen and evaluate my ministry   so yeah you know and and when you have a man  for example john macarthur a man of his stature   and he's asked all the all the publicity  was about those two words go home   but uh he had a lot more to say in answer that  question regarding beth moore but when you have   a man of the stature of john mcarthur it's been  pastoring now for i think close to 52 years   um written commentary sets preached through every  verse in the new testament i mean in in and he   indicates that there's a there's a problem some  things you need to consider i if john mcarthur   came to me and said justin you've got some serious  things here that you need to be evaluating i would   listen to him if your husband doug came to me and  said that there just you've got some serious error   here in your theology i would listen to him um and  it's it's unfortunate that beth is not doesn't i   agree and when women come to me and say could you  explain this i don't understand what you just said   on your teaching then i do i i respond to them and  i think through it sometimes i'll ask my husband   you know so um i i try to be open but i'm not  gonna i'm not gonna deny scripture i'm not gonna   change my views just to suit some woman who  doesn't like my interpretation of first timothy   or something else so i have to stand before the  lord and i've heard you say this many times justin   you've got to worry about pleasing one person  and that's god i can't worry about pleasing   people so yeah we've got one person  to whom we will give an account yep   yep amen well susan thank you so much  for your time you're welcome it was great   yeah so thanks for letting me be on and i hope the  lord will use it for his purposes and maybe awake   awaken more women uh to the truth that would be  my desire indeed indeed thank you very much susan   all right all right dear ones i hope  that this was an encouragement to you   and uh thank you very much for joining susan and  me until our next time together may the grace of   our lord jesus christ the love of god and the  fellowship of his holy spirit be with you all

Channel: Justin Peters Ministries

Views: 251,274

Keywords: Beth Moore, Susan Heck, False

Id: r5b210e1ZWk

Length: 58min 20sec (3500 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 12 2021