An Expert on JN Darby examines the Roots of Dispensationalism

[Music] welcome to rev Reeds we have another author interview today and this is one that I've been uh I've been really looking forward to I'm super excited about this one recently I reviewed Crawford gribbons the root JN Darby and the roots of dispensationalism and I found it to be a great very helpful book and I hope that you go and and watch the review if you haven't yet to see my thoughts on ribbon's biography on Darby and the roots of dispensationalism which is mainly on Darby's thoughts and not so much uh biography on his life and since I am not a Darby expert uh I contacted the person that I believe knows Darby the best and that is Dr James fio and I want to go over his qualifications uh just momentarily because I think that uh you will agree with me that uh James is somebody you want to talk to about Darby uh James has a THM from Southern California seminary in New Testament ex Jesus he has a dmin from Southern California seminary in Christian education and he just recently we'll give the golf clap uh to James uh he just recently got his PhD from Queen University Belfast in history uh specifically looking at 19th century Irish evangelicalism and his dissertation was JN Darby and the ruin of the church did I get that title right for it uh James all right and so uh not only does he have his PhD in church history but specifically uh his disertation was on Darby today he's the dean of Bible and theology as well as a professor at Southern California Seminary so I don't know who else I would rather talk to about a Darby biography than James fio so James welcome so much to rev Reeds thank you good to be back with you again yeah yeah so we're we're we're thrilled yeah James was here we we talked about uh discovering dispensationalism before which he uh co-edited with Corey Marsh and also for forged from Reformation uh we talked about that other book on dispensational history so we got our our in-house expert on dispensational history with uh James FIA I'm I'm thrilled to have him here to talk about uh Crawford gribben book Jay and Darby and the roots of dispensationalism so let's start off with a question I think should be asked first as far as for ribbon's book on Darby and that is why should anyone want to read Crawford gribbons writing on Darby because I didn't know who Crawford gribbon is so so why is somebody that we should listen to why is he someone we should listen to on the subject of dery well I'll I'll tell you this um seven years ago when I was looking to write a a PhD on John Nelson Derby I I looked to Crawford grien and to study under him he had been uh previously involved in um uh Millennial premillennial research as part of a a study group that launched at Trinity College Dublin where he had been teaching for several years he had uh uh been he done a lot of work on Darby U um a lot of research on Plymouth Brethren and millennialism and perspectives on premillennialism specifically a dispensational thought so I was looking uh to study under him and by that time he had actually transferred to Queens University Belfast and so that was the reason that I went to Queen University Belfast it was to study under Crawford gribbons so he is one of the the leading experts on Darby um researching writing today um who who who if somebody wants a University degree that you know that's he's one of the few ones taking on those kind of projects and it was a wonderful experience for me to do so in fact he and I read through Darby and we were discussing many time probably on more of a bi-week pattern but um over the last five years uh and he um we've had a lot of conversation about Darby so as I was researching and my my research focuses on the first two decades of Darby's um the development of Darby's thought specifically concerning the ruin of the church his ecclesiology though I do deal with a little bit of his soteriology and well I mean it it covers the years when he got saved so his his grappling with all the ideas his ecclesiology his grappling with the Anglican church and then his his um uh drift away from that and so so in many ways it uh I'm looking at the same things that that Crawford um did but he really started his Approach at 1840 where mine ends and then looked at kind of from from the 40s all the way through to to the end of his life and so his reading was was in that area my reading was in the early early years because I was focused on how his ideas developed so I guess when it comes to a book on Darby uh when I talk to most people about Darby I feel like most people are in the same camp that I do and that is our knowledge of JN Darby Falls basically under the breadth of we know Darby invented the idea of the pre-trip Rapture and and that that's all that people know about Darby uh and it's it's very very surface level so most people are very much a novice on Darby's life and what he taught so most of the people approaching gribben book aren't going to know much about Darby do you think that this is a book that would be helpful for somebody who who doesn't know Darby or do you think you should have a certain understanding level uh to come in so do you think this is novice friendly um it depends on your interest um it this does get into the weeds a bit and it also is more of a history of um the Plymouth Brethren thought expanding from Darby deals with because of the 40s the 40s the decade of the 40s was a turbulent time for the Plymouth Brethren um it was the time when they were truly coming into their own and also um divided the Schism with Benjamin Newton and the exclusives and the open Brethren and I mean so much happened at at that time and that's really where he's entering into the the discussion um but it it's also for good reason because that's when there was a a a much more codified um ethos and character of of pinth Brethren ISM so it is a good place to start he's also uh Crawford also offers a very um I think a charitable portrait of Darby which is important that he is not a um you know an overly biased harsh critic who's just trying to um you know mischaracterize him so I I it's it's valuable in many regards also because of its kind of big picture um sort of a bird's eye view and the organization of it to look at the different areas of thought you know the way he organizes its tarology ecclesiology pneumatology and eschatology so it it it um it is a a big sweeping view of of these things but it it also um focuses on those areas less so with a with a view to Darby himself so you don't see the man as much as you see the thought that's the focus yeah yeah no yeah I actually liked that it was a focus on the thought that's I think I think that's the most important thing about Darby right right um but but I would say um another thing about Darby just in general this is this is a a major approach that that I've taken in presenting Darby is that Darby he's an enigma he is um a paradoxically and the the phrases on his Tombstone that he is unknown and well-known and wellknown in the sense that I mean as well known as as a more obscure Christian history figure could be but his name many people associate with as kind of you said earlier the one the one thing you know about Darby is he invented the pre-trip Rapture and the fact is he didn't invent the pre-trip Rapture right you know and and it's true of so many other people who would say well the one thing I know about Darby is you know he held to multiple ways of salvation for the different peoples of God or the one thing I know about Darby is you know and pretty much whatever the one or two things that anybody knows about Darby you know he's he held to seven dispensations he started the seven dispensation scheme everything anybody knows about Darby is not true it's not it's not a accurate characterization of Darby Darby didn't hold any of those things and I I set that out in in in my work I say look all these things that Darby is known for he didn't subscribe to any of them and and because he remains very much unknown it's a lot of people are anachronistically looking back on Darby through the lens of more modern dispensationalists whether it's scoffield which is usually the extent to which anybody's looking at dispensationalism yeah or you know um or or or even more recent perhaps than that whether it's you've got um Brooks or or or um uh um schaer or ryrie or walber or you know all the way up to Dallas Seminary a lot of people are looking back on on Darby through the lens of these people and not really looking at Darby at all and none of those accurately or even even really claim to or try to reflect Darby that's it's it's really not it Darby is just this shadowy figure in the past that that really nobody typically will engage with yeah I I mean I thought coming into it from my perspective as a nov is probably the only thing that really I would have liked to have had more background information going into it was was about the split with the Brethren um that you mentioned like the exclusive open Brethren that was one thing that he just sort of the way he talks about it you should probably have a some background information on what it is because a lot of times he's talking about like this is but I'm just you know going through for a look at what Darby said about stuff there is a a good book out there it's been out for for quite a while about maybe almost two decades now called the story of conflict and its entire focus is that conflict alone uh Benjamin Newton and Darby um controversy it's called the story of conflict patterer as I I believe I know they originally published I think they're still publishing it um unless somebody else has got it but it's um it's it's still available and that's the focus of it say so if somebody has read other books on Darby and they feel like they are familiar with Darby uh they they've read the synopsis of the Bible maybe and some of his other letters and writings and so forth um what do you think someone who is already familiar with Darby will be able to G glean from gbon what do you think might be some some unique contributions he brings to the thought of Darby those who are already experienced I would say anybody who's already at least to a cursory level familiar with Darby this book would be tremendous a tremendous value because um if if you know even a little bit about Derby this will help as I said the big picture the the the trouble with studying Darby is that um there's there's so much there's voluminous works out there uh even just of what's published and not to mention what is not readily available um so so there's just so much that Darby wrote and almost never organized in any form of fashion um besides that you have a body of literature that was produced over six years you know at least 50 years um that is is quite diverse even in the views that he expresses and and and Crawford will point that out that there are times that um you know he he can almost seem to argue both sides of an issue or because he has changed his position so the development of his thought um I mean especially when you've got writings going back to the 20s and then all the way up to the end of his life in the late 70s early 80s um there are I mean you sometimes there are multiple changes and and you know and and it may not even be changes it also could be um that he is very robust in his in his exegetical engagement so that think of it this way and we we have this problem all the time where people if if you could preach a sermon from uh Ephesians Paul's statement on being saved by grace through faith alone and not of works and then the next Sunday if you were to preach through James um somebody would think that you're all over the place you've changed your you might sound a little different yeah yeah right and and and so there you know um especially when we are used to organizing our thoughts according to systems or people or characters Calvinism for instance is one which you know Crawford points out that he's calvinistic um and yet uh you know there are certainly limitations to that um I mean Darby would not be a self-described calvinist um you know and of course we would we quickly gravitate toward these labels because that we say hey that's going to show you exactly who I am based on this or that um you know that that the Brethren would completely isue all labels you know um they wouldn't want they wouldn't want to be characterized by anyone's thought and to the extent that these people other writers of the past may have influenced him it would always be tempered by other writers and I mean you know Darby um read just prolifically from the patristics the early church he actually read more when you look at who he's ascribing to ideas um it's usually comes out of the first couple centuries of the church more than anybody through through the history of the church afterwards um including you know much closer contemporaries I mean he almost never attributes you know ideas to to uh modern or or even um uh I mean obviously he mentions Calvin and Luther several times in his writings but he always always with limits and always at an arms breadth um so I mean that's very important to understand that that we are quick to categorize and you know he he would have done the exact opposite and and that was actually pretty common in his day especially when um calvinist to to be a calvinist would have been for some I mean it was it was a especially those in the Church of England at that time it was it was a it was a um accusation that would kind of label somebody as in discorded from the teaching of the Church of England and so many of the of the denters were often accused of that I mean a forerunner of of Darby was John Walker and he was also accused of being a calvinist he definitely held calvinist IDE ideas but he always he he actually made a remark he said he said although I have nine volumes of Calvin on my shelf I don't think I've read even as many as nine pages and so he says if if I agree with with Calvin it's only because he and I are reading from the same Bible and for no other reason you know so I mean that that kind of goes to show the kind of attitudes um of of those who were in The Church of of of Ireland at the time and who were um you know trying to uh approach develop because what they what Darby was doing he was within a line of those who were looking at the limitations of the established church of England and Ireland at the time and how they would proceed in their Christian walk outside of that and the extent to which that needed to be a complete separatist you know um and and you know this is this leans into why Darby was so unique being as gin me being Catholic um obviously not the way we think of Roman Catholic in any way but in in you know we might use a term like ecumenical um but you know he wasn't saying hey let's all grab hands and and you know and erase all distinctions yeah but instead he said let us stand on the basis of the unity of Christ you know so so even the terms can be very misleading if if we don't really understand the context of Darby's time so yeah so I guess it helps it takes a lot of that terminology that people throw out and he ribbon helps you put it into into a broader context of what Darby actually believed uh so and this might play into your book that's going to come out eventually on Darby at least I'm gonna cross my fingers Lord willing that you'll you'll get your book out there on Derby but uh what do you look looking through his book what Was there anything specific that you were like oh I wish he would have included this uh anything left out that you would have loved to see in in grib's book well um yes I I one of the big things that a lot of people when you when you deal with these you're talking about methodology methodology is the most important I always like to get behind the ideas and think what was driving these ideas so when you talk about Darby's um soteriology pneumatology ecclesiology and eschatology well they're all preceded by his methodology his his theological method and um a lot of times what dispensationalists today talk about or really most Christians when they realize that we're on different different sides of an aisle on just about any issue we realize that it's a hermeneutical issue so to really engage what was Darby's hermeneutical approach um what was his methodological I mean how did he come come to these conclusions would have probably been a a a really helpful maybe even a a first chapter before jumping in to soteriology would have been what was Darby's methodology um but you know that will you cover that in your book no no no no mine's mine my Approach is a little different than his he was doing a systematic approach he was actually showing how how systematic even though Darby rejected systems the systematization I will say developed in the in the late years so my focus of Darby's developing years is actually on the other side of that you know when he was just kind of moving through a lot of different ideas in order to arrive at what he arrived at in 1840 because by 1840 like I said 40s is is when it had largely coalesced so the the the my my focus was how did Darby get to that point what did that Journey look like so I I was going to ask this question later later on in the interview but I'm going to ask it now because I'm I'm curious at the moment uh is there a book on Darby's methodology out there no little there's very little written on on on Darby um because it's such a such a daunting you know I mean a lot of people just aren't aren't that concerned like I said the um I mean even I hate to say that the the the title of the book you know Jay and Darby and the roots of dispensation ISM I think that roots of dispensationalism got kind of tacked on there a little bit more um because the publisher wanted it because it sells rather than because that's really what the book is about I mean the book is really about um the the systemization of Darby's ideas right I mean you know oh totally yeah yeah it's it's really not even engaging that issue but in other words the point is the market drives certain factors you know in terms of publishing and titles and things like that and um and so uh methodology might be important to a handful of us but um it's it's not going to sell titles so it's not really what a that there is a challenge there between what we might want to read we are the few we have to recognize we're the minority we're the underrepresented we're the ones who are you know we we want to see those things but somebody else isn't going to do that work and put it out there because it'll sell five bucks yeah I guess I guess that that that just frustrates me because I feel like what defines dispensationalism today is our hermeneutic and methodology of how we approach scripture that's you know that's what that's what makes a dispensationalist like because there was a point in my early Ministry where I was like I was tired of some of the ridicule I felt like I got for being a dispensationalist and I kind of wanted to walk away from it but I couldn't leave the methodology I couldn't not look at the Bible yeah through the human hermeneutic lens that we do through us dispensationalist so I like you know sort of begrudgingly was like ah I guess I'm going to stay in this group anyways because I can't see a better way to read the Bible like this is how I want to do it so I would love I would love to see what Darby's actual methodology was yeah I'm not gonna do that work because it's insane yeah um the amount you'd have to go through to you know to figure that out but I would love somebody like you to do that work James it's just not it's not going to be um broadly appreciated so so even even even um if to the extent that you can describe it you're not going to be able to have a book on it because nobody really wants to read that very few want to read that um probably got like 15 people who watch my channel would probably want to read that book right that's right yeah no you know he's I mean he's broadly characterized and accurately so as a literalist you know obviously his reading of scripture is is is very much in line yeah no you say that though James but then I'm like after reading gon's book like maybe he really wasn't when I looked at the No No he he and and he wasn't that's why I say he was broadly characterized that way but um it would you know the idea that dispensationalists take today and talking about it's all hermeneutics it's the grammatical Historical Method no it wasn't for Darby I mean that that that's not it at all that wasn't it I know and in fact his reading of the Old Testament he tended towards spiritualizing a lot of the Old Testament I mean if you saw the way he um you know I mean on in the New Testament it's much more the way uh somebody following grammatical historical approach would would handle scripture today but but he spiritualized much of the Old Testament he was always looking for for Christ or Parallels to the Old Testament figures looking for almost like spiritual um spiritualizing the text yeah no because I guess what's what's piqu my interest to get a book on his methodology is is I I got the synopsis of the Bible by Darby um and so I got it so I could do a review on it and uh so I look at it you know fairly regular and there are definitely times where I read it and I'm like that is not a good dispensationalist approach Darby so i' love to love to see something on on any any other book are there any books that you would recommend on Darby that are out there well um on Darby if you want to know Darby um I mean Max waram Chuck's biography is really what what what started it all for me too and piqued my interest when I was a teenager I read his book The just it's all the way back to the 80s um or maybe in English it was the early 90s when it was first published but it just called John Nelson Derby and um and SCS press has has produced a updated and expanded because it went out of print it was lzo Brothers which is a defunct publisher now but um SCS press picked it up and and put it out uh a few years ago now so that is a very good um starting point and a good look again I think Max waram chuk does a good job looking at the person um you know his ministry I mean that you know I talked about methodology another thing is um ideas are only I mean ideas are important I'm I'm a historian of ideas really I mean I'm looking at Darby's thought and that's yeah that is you know so I I it's important to look at the ideas but you can't you really need to look at the person and the ministry that They carried out in their life of you know what did these ideas motivate him to do and again once more he's he is such an enigma and the the paradoxical I mean he was at once um I think waram chuk does a good job pointing to some of these features where he was caring compassionate um you know would would um extend himself to to the needy or to underprivileged um but at the same time he was uh really um a vigorous fighter when he was dealing with an equal he would lock horns with anybody who you know could could could go toe-to-toe with him I mean the the Beast came out you know sort of a Dr Jackal Mr Hyde you know in Ministry context anytime he seemed to be ministering to what you know and he also had a social standing um you know I his family was was um certainly of the Gentry class being an Anglo Irishmen you know raised in a castle I mean you know family had even um land and and and in the new in the new world in America there was all kinds of um wealth they came from a privileged position so interestingly you know he didn't use that as as many would think to you know Lord it over underlings in fact he would serve the poor Catholics I mean he was just known for his charity toward those who he would who he regarded as lower in social status but he was a bear to anyone who was equal or or higher he took them to task so so wechu shows us about Darby anything else to recommend or is that well I would suggest if you want to know Darby's thought as opposed to just knowing about Darby himself there's nothing better to read than um Roy hu hubner hubner is the way for anybody who's wanting to understand how Darby thought I I really wouldn't recommend to anybody who's not ready to commit their life to the study of Darby I wouldn't really even recommend reading Darby um if you want to know Darby's thought read humer Roy hubner and uh that's that's actually the best the best place to start it's it's it's available online pdf you can get a lot of his works and it's also available in print I'll I'll look up the link to that for anybody who's watching put in the description below so you you can find that um so so we got hubner we got um we got worm Che uh any uh and then we got gribben do you have any issues with gon's overall portrayal of Darby did you take any issue with any big picture things he might have brought out about him no like like I said there's um there's it's just if you if you don't understand um so like he he really you pointed this out in your review that he and and he did this kind of a few times uh gribin mentioned that he was um Catholic of he was um calvinist Catholic um charismatic and catastrophic and and I I think that he was um kind of doing that in along with the calvinist in terms of soteriology Catholic in terms of ecclesiology charismatic in terms of um uh pneumatology and catastrophic in terms of ecclesiology so my point is that those those are maybe helpful labels but sometimes the labels can get in the way because I don't think that they they they don't say enough and he also doesn't leave it there he leaves those as he presents those as headings but if you don't scratch under the surface you you won't see that Darby as I think I said earlier he Darby did not um he wouldn't have characterized himself as a calvinist he wouldn't have used that label um you know he would he would refer to himself as a biblicist and and and he even in his writings points to areas where he would differ with Calvin or or or even what much of what is Calvinism would differ with Calvin um his reading of Calvin so um you know I I think I think I've got a quote here I pulled up I think I told you on the presence and action of the Holy Ghost he said um let me see that I'll read those who led by the Holy Ghost have searched the word have while following the word and the principles and truths that Calvin himself found there found themselves outside his system in several particulars they followed the word and not the system I mean in other words you know he's he's not trying to follow a calvinistic system uh um he's trying to follow the word and that that lends itself toward what I'd said earlier about a a predecessor of Darby's um John Walker another another somebody in a very similar situation in Ireland in Trinity at the time when Darby was a student there and he made this statement of you know I I don't read Calvin um but you know I'm frequently accused of holding to his ideas but that you know just recognized that we're we're taking an exegetical approach to scripture that's what we're doing now Calvinists have since systematized just as dispensationalists have systematized dispensationalism and then we look back on it and say this system of dispensationalism is not what Darby taught and I think much of the system of Calvinism is not what John Calvin talk so I guess you would probably say the overall issue with gribben would not be actually what he wrote in the details but it would be maybe somebody taking those headings and being like Oh I already know what those headings mean so I know how to define Darby not looking at the details right yeah yeah and and and even the presentation I mean is is is very spoton in everything he says but he's also pushing back so bear in mind right I I'd mentioned earlier um mischaracterizations of Darby are that um you know one a common one soteriologically one of the biggest mischaracterizations is that he was heretical in his soteriology that Darby soteriology that he believes in different ways of salvation for the different peoples of God that Derby bifurcated the peoples of God and said this people get saved in this way a different people get saved in this way he he didn't draw out any and there was I think perhaps a missed opportunity because I would have tackled that headon um well and of course I think he knows that I do tackle that head-on so he might have saved that for me to make that clear but there are numerous places where Darby refutes that statement he makes it abundantly clear he does not hold to that position I think I think now that you said that I think one I don't know if long term it would not matter or maybe it's just in the moment but it does not seem like gribbon explicitly was interested in saying here's mischaracterizations I'm gonna correct them he was more just presenting Darby and then allowing that naturally to take care of that's right that's right and and I I you know and so I take a very different approach in in my presentation of it I like to say you know because again my angle is Darby is unknown and well-known and so the point is these are all the things that people think they know about Darby and they're wrong on all of them and so I think his purpose of simply saying Darby was calvinist was was to say who who today can say the the Darby's critics today would say Darby is holds to unorthodox or even you know heterodox or yeah or or heretical cerol that's that's the accusation of of critics of Darby's critics and and without even taking that challenge at all gribin has simply showed how Darby is within the stream of calvinist thought now that's that's kind of the the way I would put it um he's within the stream of calvinist thought um now I know today there are fiveo Calvinists that would call four-o Calvinists non- calvinistic and so on and so forth right so so you realize that the system takes a life of its own but but in fact it's absolutely Orthodox soteriology you know and yeah and that's his point on on all of those now I mean charismatic again very in many ways a a a gross overstatement he expands on it in in a very good way oh yeah no like I said in my review I hit the charismatic and I was like oh I'm not gonna like this but then I loved it so yeah yeah yeah so all of those things need to be you know tempered but he does he does in the chapters and but even even though once again what I'm saying is even when you read the chapter sometimes it's pushing back on a thing so hard that it maybe doesn't present the full well-rounded picture of it it's just saying hey here's the thing you didn't know look at how much you know um look at how wrong you are yeah yeah and and his you know I mean being not a strict cessationist is important but but then again neither was Calvin right so saying not a strict cessationist as it's defined today Calvin wasn't Darby wasn't you know and yet you say did he believe in tongues and you know and all these miraculous demonstrations no he did not so he he actually was on the other side of Edward Irving and those who were doing these you know manifestations and saying this is not these are not adequate representations of the spirit today so um you know so again you'd say what we know about charismatic usually the first thing that comes to our mind is you know a glossal Alia phenomen where people are yeah or something like that and we say no he would have absolutely reject he did absolutely reject it he he refuted it and those who practice those things and you know so you know you've got to take really temp a tempered approach to to to those so the book uh so G gin's book looked at four areas of theology as we've said he looked at soteriology ecclesiology pneumatology eschatology now if he got done with those four James and he said all right I got four areas of of systematic theology I've covered I want to do a fifth but I'm not sure what to do you can write the fifth one uh what area of systematic theology would you want to cover next for Darby that you think would would next be the most important well well um I I I maybe go back to something I said earlier um I I think hermeneutical I mean rather than another area of theology um I mean bibliology which might include hermeneutics his approach to scripture um the point is that's not an area where he's been I mean in terms of his regard for the word that's that's much more welln his hermeneutics is much less known and his theological method is is and entirely unknown I think I would I would really go back to it and write a first chapter is what I would do and I would kind of lay the foundation for it before jumping into soteriology with theological method and hermeneutic and his approach to scripture and those kind of things I think that that would best serve the book If I were to add another chapter bibliology focusing on is uh is hermeneutical hermeneutic yeah stud yeah sometimes in most works of systematic theology we almost refer to it as a prolamina right like before we go into the theology let's look at the background the theological method the approach to scripture how he's arriving at these conclusions that that I think that would be helpful yeah no that it would be it would have been uh but uh thankful for what we got even if that that chapter's missing so we we've talked about some common mischaracterizations that people have from Darby and I feel like what we've brought out for the most part so far have been the I hate dispens ationalism so much that I'm going to talk about how Darby was a her like you know I'm using these things with Darby that I'll bring out to just totally dismiss the whole dispensational game but if we were to talk among dispensationalism so James like you think for a moment about conversations that you have with other dispensationalists who are in the group they'd have a positive overall view of James Derby probably even if they don't know him well uh what do you think among dispensationalists is the place where we get Darby wrong most often today like that thing that that like somebody you would love like like somebody like like something that maybe somebody like Cory Marsh would say about Darby and you'd be like oh Corey oh yeah it's not quite right so uh so somebody in our camp that would get something wrong where do you think most often people get things wrong about Darby today well um Darby Darby's dispensational scheme was entirely different than what we um than what we imagine as we you know the charts and everything like that the successive dispensations of you know one ends and another one begins is not at all the the the the framework that Darby was working in you might say concentric dispensations for him or um parallel dispensations he had a dispensation of Israel that um was synonymous it was going on at the same time with the dispensation of the Gentiles um and by that I mean like the neb Nebuchadnezzar's image so in other words you know when we talk about two peoples of God we often hear you know two peoples of God in terms of criticizing Darby you know Israel and the church well Darby also very much accounted for the Gentiles and the Gentile dispensation not as the church but as the church being neither Jew nor Gentile but a new creation so now you've got a third people which which never comes into the consideration of dispensationalists today what about God's program for the Gentiles and dispensationalists would almost in almost to the man wrap that up with well the church is the dispensation of the Gentiles no the the times of the Gentiles you know goes all the way back to to to Daniel's image the the success of Kingdoms God was dealing with the Gentiles in a way distinct from the Jews and and then the church being an altogether different thing which is why Darby ultimately doesn't even regard the church as a dispensation at all which is you know so you you realize his scheme is is is very different and his perception of what dispensationalism is is quite different than what dispensationalists do today so this is something yeah this is something that that caught me by surprise in the book when when gribbon said that the church wouldn't be a dispensation yeah what would what would Darby say it is instead of being a dispensation mhm MH well it it comes down to what his definition of a dispensation is you know um again we we look at epochs right again we we're and then and then dispensationalists had to in the generation after him in the early 1900s dispensationalists found themselves really having to argue against dispensations being ages and said oh wait wait wait let me clarify dispensations take place during time but they're not defined by time and yet the reason they had to push back so hard on that is because they had effectively created a history of time that you could just lay out there that is entirely successive one dispensation start time it continues until the next one starts which continues to the next one starts and it goes right up until the end of time so in in in effect you know dispensationalists are arguing no no no it's not time but really the way that scheme works it it is time Darby realizes that they were stewardships you could have a stewardship at the same time I have a stewardship we could have two stewardships going on on Earth right now or three stewardship I mean that is the after all what a dispensation is what has God given you to do what has God given that Israel to do and what has God given for the Gentiles and then also he gets into governments and the way governments where there isn't government there isn't an Administration which is why he doesn't have dispensations going all the way back to Adam in the garden and so the church itself because there isn't government it's a it's a spiritual entity um it's the it doesn't properly constitute a dispensation as he defined it he says the dispensations properly begin with Noah and then would we would if if they can be like like multiple ones layered on top of each other because we all have different stewardships does that mean because of what started in Noah never stopped like we're still under the noic dispensation coven like is that still that you would that be more how you you look at it like that's still yeah yeah um he doesn't he doesn't elaborate on that but I mean he uh but I think you know then he he mentions the promise with Abraham I mean so you've got government beginning with Noah and promise with Abraham but but you're right any other dispensation a dispensationalist would say it stops with Noah well why on Earth would it stop with with Abraham why would it stop with with Abraham right I mean government continues to the very end so that does show and and he doesn't outline that he doesn't exactly explain that but you can but he certainly doesn't suggest that it stops he just says that a new one begins and so I almost I almost picture this aged Irish guy like like if Darby came into one of the churches and we were talking about the seven dispensations and if somebody had a a chart on the board he'd walk in and be like this cronly old Irish guy like ah you're getting it all wrong and he' go tear it all that's probably terrible Scottish accent inste and he' just rip it all down and be like this is the worst like this isn't you don't got it right at all like like is that kind of what he'd probably be like totally but beyond that he would be I'm sure tremendously troubled that we're that we're bothering with charts right now when the church is in such a mess because that's really what he cares about is the testimony of the spirit on Earth um you know the fact that the fact that his and and and Crawford point this out I mean um North America really picked up on his dispensationalism more than more than you know I mean his his ecclesiology with with the Brethren continued overseas but um um you know over in the British Isles but over in in North America there was there was we pretty much rejected his ecclesiology rejected his pneumatology we basically just grabbed a hold of his esoy that's it and just stamped it you know import it um and uh that would that would trouble him to no end far more than anything else the fact that we're even caring about esthology and we don't care about the church and um the spirit and the testimony so obviously if you're an independent church dispensationalist Bible Church Baptist whatever um if you're an independent church dispensationalist you believe in the ruin of the church like did like I I think that's one thing that's still today like like we're all like you know we're the church is not going to save the world we're going to need Jesus to come and and do what we can um and we're we're not in a denominational structure that's you know cutting off other people like anybody could join a independent one of these independent churches where do you think Darby would say we went wrong in ecclesiology uh I would think he would say we got a lot right yeah no I don't I think if if there's if there's a pastor leading that church he would say you got it all wrong oh he would wouldn't he he would oh yeah yeah because the spirit has been displaced by the pastor yeah yeah he would he would so that's that's really important to him and we don't even think of that you know I I know it's in the book and I totally I totally forgot about it um uh I mean I mean he you know again his idea of the ruin of the church was was such and that's the focus of my my research is his concept of the ruin of the church it is it is to such a degree that he even rejected the appointment of Elders I mean who who would who would even conceive of that right like we'd say that's obviously instead of instead of an executive Pastor or a congregational model a plurality of Elders and deacons is God's government for the church as uh prescribed in the New Testament and he would say yes but those Elders were appointed by Apostles or Apostolic delegates there was no succession laid out so who should be appointing elders and he says because there's no one around to appoint the elders in other words Elders don't appoint other Elders or churches don't just create you know and start appointing Elders or or but you know or as happens in most places somebody you know with an ENT an enterprising young man says I will be an elder and then start uh uh their own church I mean he would say that is called a sect you are now calling yourself a church and meeting on one on what basis you know you have the minute you have defined yourself as a as a church as distinct from the church next door you have formed a sect you know with its own body of membership and its own I mean you know so it had a very very different um view of those things that that would just I mean yeah and and that's that's yeah that's where I really didn't like Darby cuz I feel like if you did practice fully what he taught and and I think I think I said this specifically my riew you would just be a personality driven Church whoever had the strongest personality in the church uh would dictate it um because you you have no structure to prevent the most charismatic person right from from taking leadership and control church he the most woo would lead the church and the conflict in the 40s was that he saw the preeminence of Benjamin Newton who had a strong personality and things were very much structured around him and he points that out um you know by the by the 70s I mean he was that figure he was the figure that everybody rallied behind and now he had he had sub I mean obviously Benjamin Newton had long since been uh he Newton actually ended up becoming a Baptist later um but Darby supplanted new in terms of that role and even in fact exceeded Newton in his prein among the Brethren exclusives certainly but even really among all the Brethren I mean he became everybody you know cow toow to Darby uh he was the the preeminent one and so you know I mean if Newton was wrong for it how wrong was Darby and yeah so it's I yeah I yeah I'm not I like some things of his ecclesiology like I like the ruin of the church because I think we need Christ to come back and uh and help us but now not as far as he took it um but I guess I guess Darby and I would have probably I probably would have been somebody that Derby would have been like really he would have gladly butt heads with me I wouldn't have gotten the gentle Easy Pass right like you book reviewer I'll uh I'll I'll I'll get you um so let's then go to book reviewer uh so I put my review out there about the book and I gave my thoughts about Darby and what I liked and what I learned and all that um I really I as soon as I got done R in my review my first thought was I want to know what James thinks about what I said so now I get to ask publicly where did I did did I go what did what did I get best about Darby in my review and what did I get worst about Darby or about gribben work what do you think I had the best and what do you think I had the worst well I think um in my in my opinion just watching it I it's it's difficult I'm sure especially if you're not too familiar with Darby to um assess Darby without measuring him against yourself as a standard oh of course that's what I'm doing yeah that's that's what Christians do basically what did he get right what did he get wrong according to is and we all do that right so yeah so um you know again realizing he was he was a man of his time and his time was very different than ours and he actually was in a very different country so he didn't really even understand North American the church in North America because he came from a um the Church of England the Church of Ireland you were born in the church so when he was pushing back on on clergy and clericalism he was he was pushing back on a very different system than what we have um you know where everybody in the country is born into the church baptized into the church you know the the the the the idea of separation between church and state he argued for um you know I mean that was that was one of the biggest things he was championing separation of church and state well we had that in America you're right America was founded on that so he was pushing back on something so there's just so much different that it's always difficult when you're um looking at a historical figure to to assess them on on our conventions and our you know our our values and things like that um yeah so you know he was he was a man of his time and he was fighting back against things in his time and I I think to this day um the church would in a much better place if we paid a lot more attention to Darby and I do not mean by that and I would not call myself a darite you know been associated with with the Plymouth Brethren in any in any way but I believe that his um voice uh we need to pay a lot more attention to it he has a lot more to benefit the church than the church has gained from his wealth of of um exercise in the written word and and you know I mean and it becomes comes really easy to dismiss someone because of their errors but if everyone's dismissed based on their errors then we're all dismissed who who should we be listening to you know um so I I think I think uh everyone would do well the church would do well to pay a lot closer attention to Darby's um research and writing and and his ideas that was that okay that was a nice nice peaceful uh um Switzerland type answer I I guess I didn't pay attention to his time well enough but was there anything that like that you would specifically say like I got wrong that like you would think that well I mean that I might have just gotten like factually wrong like Darby didn't believe that or I said that he did yeah no except that uh again you know I mean I think you're your push back on his Calvinism your push back on his um you know it's it's it's understandable that uh I mean I think uh I don't know exactly where you're at theologically but but my guess is that um many if if you believe in Divine election individual personal Divine election and some don't I mean free Grace some believe in corporate election um if you believe in um uh uh eternal security um I I mean Arby was huge on eternal security right right yeah yes so I mean the the point is uh it could it's it's very possible that by the critics you also could be called a calvinist what I'm saying I mean yeah I do think that you one one point that I've learned reading some of the older people is that we have we've we've tightened the net maybe if the right word to say over the last 75 years as far as narrowed what a dispensational is narrowed what a calvinist is when it was much looser and broader for a lot of those terms before you know the 1930s or whenever they decided to start making those more narrow because it is surprising sometimes when I read some views of of older Calvinists like wow you would have really believed that like like you know because I wouldn't put you in that category um for instance uh Larry pedigree who's with the Lord but his his book forsaking Israel um he's got a couple of uh like sermons by some Calvinists and it's like I don't think any calvinist could say what those sermons said today and still be counted as a Calvin but you could back then so you are right the the terminology does does change a little bit and you're right maybe I do need to dig deeper than just what I see in the book yeah so I've got a I've got a quote here this is not from from Darby this is again from John Walker um who but I I mentioned there's a lot of similarities between these men in their time and their upbringing and their in their uh posture and with the Catholic with the Anglican church and and he's the one who was frequently accused of being a calvinist and he said um just a quick quote here he said I cannot prevent others from calling me a calvinist but it is not a name that I but it is a name that I never wish to assume and this not from any cowardly desire to conceal my of divine Truth for I would Rejoice to Proclaim them to the world but because I see that the scriptures positively testify against the practice of Christians distinguishing themselves by the names of human leaders if I were to choose any man by whose name I would distinguish myself I would be apt to select Paul and call myself a paulite but against this Paul himself would protest and shall I call myself a disciple of Calvin and then he says but you call but we call you a calvinist because your views of scripture are the same with Calvin and he says I do not know that and some points I believe they are and some points I believe they're not at any rate it is not from Calvin's works I've learned them so you know it's it's just I I think that is very typical and I think that would speak to Darby very much in the same way that people in that day were putting that label on him and and and of course in this day people don't put that label on him but it's saying hey within his time he suffered and was accused as a calvinist at a time when it was not a pat on the back um it was actually to show how discordant he was it was an accusation against him and and the same could be said of Darby and and and so um um I think the the point that Crawford is making is he's saying hey this guy was completely in line and and would be embraced by Calvinists today um but but at the same time he would completely distance himself from the label from the system from many of the things that Calvinists um um have built upon Calvin just in the same way that like like I said is really unrecognizable from from Calvin's own teachings just as the way the systematization of anything becomes so much more rigid and and in fact almost um you know no longer even reflects the views of of the founder and we've already seen that with dispensationalism haven't we yeah do you think there are any Darby ites today you think you think there's any churches who follow yes they're they're main they're very very few and they're a Dying Breed and they are in overseas in uh I mean but they're the exclusive Brethren and they are you know um there's still some exclusive brother there are still some there are still some but they're like I said they're not uh reproducing they're not they're not going to be around for very long would you even would you say that the Brethren Church in America aren't Darby ites anymore well I mean Darby I they there Darby has um a lot of the open Brethren have a tremendous respect for Darby and read Darby and I think that the open Brethren actually do a much better job continuing in the tradition of of of Darby's locus of thought and his heart and his you know I mean again I think I think the whole exclusive movement got away from him I mean and and gribben did a good job pointing that out even that that you know to end up being on the he lost almost every one of his friends and it he lost control and yet he was he was the very figure that was at the head of it all and yet um you know based on his rigid um separation from different uh sects within uh the Brethren movement it it kind of took on a life of its own and um he ended up very very discordant even with with the direction that the Brethren went the exclusive Brethren it's just it the it is so fascinating his Heritage that he's talked about he's demeaned he's hated um like like I mean the the vital toward Darby and toward dispensationalists at times is just nuts and like they living like well well it's just being honest about him but but if you look at the people who actually follow his writings like it's so few but then at the same time he's had this massive impact so it's just it is it is just kind of mindboggling how his place in church history very very unique yeah yeah because like we still have the Lutheran we still have the Cal the you know calvinist obviously you'd think we'd have Darby ites more that really followed his teaching but not not so I don't even feel like dispensationalists could take that title because we've changed it so much yeah not at all dispensationalist are not the the you know the line of Derby at all really um and there isn't but you know he also wanted it that way I mean there's a reason why um you know he he he didn't even use his name in print you know he he there's a reason why they use the J and D um moniker you know just the initials and and many times when when referring to other people or other people refer to him they would just say you know Mr Mr D line so that it doesn't even say Darby and it doesn't even you know they wouldn't even identify one another in print they they they wanted Christ to increase and that meant they had to decrease and and as as which again is the tremendous Paradox of Darby becoming this Larger than Life figure in his teachings becoming so um prominent within the Brethren movement and overseas everywhere but at the same time he he didn't want his name on things he didn't want anything ascribed to him you know so it's it's paradoxical for sure yeah and in an odd way he lived out uh John the Baptist this uh he must increase so uh I must I must decrease uh and you know had a big impact uh nonetheless so but there is uh our discussion with Dr James fio on Jay and Darby and the roots of dispensationalism by Crawford Griffin gribbon um I've already had some people comment on my first review and said that they've purchased the book as a result of the review I hope that this interview will encourage more people to go out and purchase it and know that I I think the biggest thing for me in this James which which I'm happy we we've been able to have this discussion is I feel like I can have a little bit more confidence in not having a mischaracterized view of Darby because I do feel like there is far more lies about him circling around the church than there are you know factual information and not even necessar lies but just we think something is from Darby when it's not like like it's it's really from scoffield or Schaefer or Brooks or you know one of those guys or ryy but it's not from Darby um and so to to get back and to see what Darby actually believes it's it's it's a fascinating Journey well I I appreciate the time and uh I'll be looking forward to your book so uh G get get me a front row seat uh when when that when that comes out and we'll uh we'll have you back here on on rev reads but uh thank you so much for your time uh James I appreciate it thank you yeah good to be here with you again all right and if you're new to rev reads uh subscribe to the channel so you can stay up toate uh with the current review there there's another uh worm Che book on Darby that's coming out right in the yes next couple of months yeah no next month yeah in May yes yeah we've got his um it's called becoming jnd D and it's the early life of Darby from birth 1800 it really gets into the weeds of the background of Barby um from 1800 to I think it's 1829 yeah so I've already talked to Cory Marsh uh to get like one of the first copies of that when that's uh able to get reviewed so so we will have uh becoming j& D covered here on rev reads so if if you're new to the channel subscribe so that you can stay up to date with what we're gonna be coming out with in the future if you want to help and support what we're doing here you can go to buy meac coffee.com revs and become a member of the Channel with a small monthly donation goes a long way to help cover the cost of having a YouTube channel uh but again uh the book that we are discussing is Crawford gribbons JN Darby and the roots of dispensationalism we got uh Darby expert James fio here so congratulations again on that PhD from Queens University Belfast and I hope that you'll be with us again soon

Channel: Rev Reads

Views: 1,058

Keywords: Rev Reads, Christian Book Reviews, Theological Book Reviews, Shawn Willson, Christian Book YouTuber, Dispensationalism, JN Darby and The Roots of Dispensationalism, James Fazio, Southern California Seminary, JN Darby, Darby, Pre Trib Rapture, the Ruin of the Church, The father of dispensationalism, Darby's dispensations, Dispensations in the Bible, Darby history, Darby Biography, Church History

Id: 161Q_TN1Hzc

Length: 64min 21sec (3861 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 25 2024