AN EVENING WITH RON CHERNOW, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING HISTORIAN

well we're in the room where it happens I can't  escape a certain show well I want to repeat the   welcome to you Ron and to our audience I we're  really looking forward to having an hour or so   talking idly not about Alexander Hamilton but  about your newer book ulysses s grant and those   of you who want to get an autographed copy  of this afterwards if you haven't purchased   it beforehand you can talk and go outside and get  a forklift and and bring it down and run through   every heavy book joke yeah my time well Doris  Kearns Goodwin beat you out with her Taft of   Roosevelt's book but and let me say one other  thing about this program because it's really   important it's because of the Bernard Bernard  Osher foundation that this good litte series   is presented so I really want to thank them  for their financial support of this tonight naturally you'll be paid in Confederate dollars  but other than how to do grant I went into reading   this thinking about grant just as a Civil War  general who was successful by basically having   so many Confederate soldiers killed that they  finally capitulated and I came away from it with   a completely 180 degree impression and indulge me  for a minute I'm not going to do a lot of talking   but I want to read something if I can find my  glasses otherwise I'll have you read you read   it can you read it this is from the government  our our government whitehouse.gov website right   I know what you're about to know where I'm going  it's graceful right okay so you lay the foundation   and there's the exact quote bottom there yeah this  appears on the White House website about US Grant   when he was elected the American people hoped for  an end to turmoil grant provided neither vigor nor   reform looking to Congress for direction he  seemed bewildered when visited to the White   House noted court a puzzled pathos as of a man  with the problem before him of which he does not   understand the terms I think it's safe to say that  every single word in this quote is incorrect ray   hope will be retired forever by this book well  I think that's a yeah and maybe we'll send him   a copy of the recording of this talk but so  let's start there this historical stereotype   of Grant was the butcher that drunkard the the  inept president the corrupt president you take   that on and let's let's take the big frame of  your book and talk about how you you know when   I started this this book they were really you  know three chief myths that I wanted to retire   you know number one was the image of Grant as a  hopeless drunkard stumbling his way through the   Civil War in a kind of alcoholic haze the second  myth that I wanted to retire that he was a crude   and brutal butcher as a general who one purely  by dint of hurling tens of thousands of you know   hapless young soldiers against the enemy and then  the third stereotype was that his was a failed   two-term presidency that was marred by scandals  and corruption nepotism and cronyism and I tried   to kind of run all through you know three of those  themes yeah the the book right and sort of develop   grant for us I mean as a person he starts off in  a relatively impoverished background right and so   the first part of his life you capture so well in  the book and it give us a thumbnail of that well I   mean he was born in 1822 he was born in the rural  southwest corner of Ohio about an hour outside of   where Cincinnati as today and he grows up it's a  very beautiful bucolic area and he grows up in a   very very interesting borderland because he's born  literally paces from the Ohio River and the Ohio   River separates on the one hand the free state of  Ohio from the slave-owning state of Kentucky this   you can imagine is very very important for someone  who was going to become the symbol of north-south   reconciliation and he's straddling these two  worlds and he's so straddling these two worlds   that the grants were ardent abolitionists but he  marries into the dent family their slave owning   family in Missouri so long before the firing on  Fort Sumter ulysses s grant is fighting his own   private civil war between on the one hand his  overbearing abolitionist father and his no less   overbearing slave owning father-in-law and as  you'll see the relationship between the dense   and the grants you know make the Hatfields and the  McCoys look now tame in comparison fact the the   grants felt so strongly about Ulysses marrying  into a slave owning families at the Grand the   entire grand family boycotted the wedding of  Ulysses and Julia grant in st. Louis in 1848   and the grants really never totally accepted  Julia which was a s'more point with grants so   it's interesting so he doesn't grant by his own  admission doesn't start out as a hero right on   the slavery issue and yet gradually he becomes  hero one of my favorite lines in the book Walt   Whitman describing grin says nothing heroic and  yet the greatest hero and somehow that raptures an   essential truth about ground you mentioned Julia  let's let's fill that in a little bit because   she's quite an important person in his life yeah  and I described you know grants I should give a   brief description of his parents his father Jesse  rout grant was a very avaricious Tanner he was a   windbag of a man he was one of these kind of  self promoting types they were very common on   the frontier and his mother Hannah that was a very  pious very prim and self-effacing and as they say   in the book Jesse root Grant never seemed to stop  talking and Hannah Grant never seemed to start   but one thing that they both had in common was  that this was a very very repressed household it   was a Methodist household that frowned on dancing  drinking card playing and in other words anything   that could be regularly considered fun it was kind  of outlawed in the grand house but there was there   were no displays of warmth or physical affection  particularly noticeable with Hannah grant and so   I think what happens when grant meets in st.  Louis Julia Dent Julia was very vivacious and   openly displayed affection and it's interesting  you know in all of the comments that I collected   from the grand family how offended they were by  the fact that she would be physically yeah motion   Aleeah fection it with them whereas poor grand  you can imagine was really you know parched I   you know this very arid household and just give  you a little bit of a flavor of their marriage   because this was a very very happy marriage  people said that there were very much well into   the marriage almost like a teenage couple that  they would sit there in the corner holding hands   together Julie was not was not a raving beauty  she had an eye condition called the strabismus   which would be a squint eye a lazy eye and she  was so self-conscious about this slight cross   eye that even when she was first lady she would  always insist upon taking pictures in profile   well one of my favorite stories in the book is  that during the Civil War by which point grants   had become in general and well-known general  he sees her one day and Julia says that she   is consulted adopted to see whether this eye  problem could be surgically corrected and he's   quite flabbergasted and he says to her why would  you have gone and done that and she said oh you   list that was written again she said oh you list  I'm such a plain little wife and you become such   a great man she felt self-conscious about it  and so Ulysses said to her did I not see and   fall in love with these same eyes and he said I  never want you to to touch them again and I mean   no Hollywood screenwriter could have improved on  that one really kind of pretty romantic line and   it's interesting because usually when you write  about you know such a famous figure as grant is   usually scuttlebutt you know around the edges  about affairs and different things like that   whereas the grand story particularly given that  there was so much gossip about the drinking but   no gossip in terms of grant having a roving eye  it was a real love match mm-hmm yeah I mean men   of power rarely monogamous and he was yeah yeah  and again I think that it had a lot to do with   the fact that he was he was emotionally starved in  some way and he really needed Julia and sometimes   I mean there's a certain kind of bashful man who  needs that unconditional love and support of I   can tell you know one other favorite story about  her grant goes through repeated failure before   the Civil War to the point where he's drummed out  of the army in 1854 kiss of a drinking episode he   then in tries farming in st. Louis I fails at that  he ends up selling firewood on street corners in   st. Louis when Christmas yes to pawn his watch in  order to buy gifts for his wife and four children   and during this terrible period and he's crafted  a log house for them that he calls hardscrabble   during this terrible period of failure julia has  a dream one night and it's a dream that Ulysses   is going through president of the United States  and when she tells friends and family about this   they will laugh nothing could have seemed more  preposterous he was just struggling to support   his family in selling firewood on street corners  so his career really started when he was able to   take command of a regiment in the western part of  western region of the Civil War and at first it   was divided there was the army of Potomac and  then the Western and he he got in there what   struck me and I'd like you to comment on it is how  much backbiting there was among the various Union   generals as he tried to as he would be successful  and they'd criticize them and Halleck wouldn't et   cetera you know what I'm saying yeah there was  a tremendous amount of backbiting and malice   and competition and you know this is where the  drinking issue comes in you know not only the   reality of it but you know the imaginary issues  too but you know there's a wonderful new addition   of grants papers that's been done over the last  40 years that's 50 thousand documents and when I   started doing the book you know recent books about  Grant that had been admiring of Grant have argued   that the entire drinking issue was completely  overblown and that these were stories invented   by malicious rivals and there was a very active  right so a very active rumor mill there were a   lot of anonymous and also signed letters being  sent to Abraham Lincoln secretary Edwin Stanton   etc and when I started doing the book and I  started reading all of these letters I too had   suspected that I would say that his letters were  just being invented whole cloth but what I noticed   was that the letters were in by different people  at different times in different places and written   up in other words by people who could not possibly  have coordinated their letters are consulted each   other and the description of a grant when he was  drinking was perfectly consistent there was not a   single letter for instance that ever described  grant as an angry drunk or violent drunk and   the language was often startlingly similar that  he was silly drunk idiotically drunk foolishly   drunk and this kind of very tightly buttoned up  man you know when he would drink there was like   this jovial personality would come out and  he would slur his words and he would start   to stumble about and I began to quite contrary  to my initial expectations say you know what   this all seems to be describing the same man with  remarkable consistency so we're hit I had expected   to completely dismiss her all over these letters I  said that to myself even though they may well have   been sent by people you know who were trying to  do damage even if you know in the most underhanded   way of sending these kinds of malicious letters it  also began to occur to me that and they may be an   embroidered and exaggerated in different ways but  that there were certainly a core of truth because   it was always describing the same character but I  was absolutely is you apparently were astonished   mm-hmm by just how much backed by demons yeah yeah  I mean as opposed to the Confederacy where Lee was   venerated Johnson was venerated and there was this  great you know a great line book where because   grant was always being asked what do you think  of Robert Ely and certainly respected Lee as a   general though he did think that he was overrated  as general how could he not and he did beat him   he died not only beat Lee he encircled his army  and captured it but he has a wonderful line would   one of his interviews where Grant said Lee was a  man who needed sunshine and he felt that Lee got   sunshine you know on the Confederate side and what  grant meant by that was he felt that one of the   advantages that the Confederacy had was that there  was much greater political unity so that there was   you know this almost kind of uncritical adoration  of Lee grant felt again in terms of the political   environment of the war that he was operating in a  much more complicated situation because there was   a very large Copperhead element and Copperhead  press in the North Copperhead press being you   know people who were opposed to the war wanted  a negotiated peace or even were sympathetic to   the south and so grant felt that the political  divisions in the north were much deeper than   the political divisions in the south and what  that meant was that generals like Grant had to   put up with much much more criticism in the press  and he felt that robert e lee kind of thrived on   all of this adoration in the confederate press  and you could see there's almost a slight envy   that he had you know that that lee enjoyed that  and clearly the northern generals and lee was six   feet tall and man of stature and grant was was  about five eight in depending upon the period   you know was described as either slight or or  stabbed and and didn't care whether his clothes   were rumpled or clean or no now grant was always  kind of slovenly I got very very interested it's   hard not to writing biography of Ulysses Grant  I got very interested in robert e lee as well   because you know the stories I was told about Lee  that when the Civil War broke out you know he was   he was about 15 years older yeah grant grant had  graduated her in the middle of his class at West   Point where I really had graduated second and  class but the story is always told that when   the Civil War broke out that robert e lee was  offered command in the union army and decided   to go you know back to home in virginia kind  of a sense of loyalty to his native him stayed   and the story is very often told in I was kind  of sentimental I'm not saying there's not an   element of truth to it because there clearly is  but what I discovered you know the more deeply   that I delved into Lee's life and views he was  a true believer in the Confederacy not just in   you know defending his native States he said  we have we had sacred principles maintained   sacred principles were preservation of slavery  and I can't find a lot of things you know that   he said about slavery that were really shocking  yeah that Lee said that the slaves for instance   were immeasurably measurably better off in the  American South and they had been in Africa and   he said the African race that they were undergoing  a painful discipline slavery but that there was   needed to bring them to kind of a higher level  of instruction and even after the Civil War he   signed this manifesto saying but slave the cot  the kindness of slavery should be restored very   hard to kind of imagine you know summer and  and also said he wrote in one letter he said   I noticed wherever the black people are things are  always getting worse and worse and remember white   people are things are getting better and better  this was really I think that it's been very much   underestimated the extent to which he subscribed  to the theology of the Confederacy he was fighting   more than just to defend his native state yeah I  want I don't want to dwell too much on the Civil   War because the presidency is so important but the  I do have two questions about that one is what was   it Lincoln went through four generals or more who  were incompetent yellow and Joe hooker etc grant   came in and was different what was different about  grant yeah I think what it was with Grant is that   up until the time in March 1864 grant is winning  one battle after another in the West you know it's   funny if you kind of see a documentary you kind  of read a book about the Civil War in it but it's   just focusing on Virginia it seems like one Union  disaster if you know that but if you're looking   what was going on in the in the West grant for  Donaldson you know in Vicksburg and Chattanooga   you know etc grant is winning one victory after  another finally in 1864 he becomes the general in   chief I think had it not been for the rumor mill  about the drinking he would have been brought you   know East sooner as General in chief you know and  it was really granted was the strategic genius of   the war because what he saw was that the various  Union armies in the different theatres of war had   been operating independently of one another  so he come he really comes up with a master   plan so that all of the various Union armies  you know their movements will be coordinated   he was able to do this through his mastery of  the telegraph and the railroad very significant   when Grant fought in the Mexican War he was a  quartermaster by background and training which   meant that he had an immense sense of logistics  Sherman had a wonderful line he said that grants   a strategy encompassed an entire continent he said  Robert Lee strategy encompassed one small state so   grant has this kind of spacious vision and so  during that last year of the war when grant is   general chief everything that is going on relates  to everything else that is going on so Sherman may   be marching to the sea but one reason Sherman  succeeds is that Grant has robert e lee pinned   down yeah you know in Virginia and Kant a system  that's just kind of one small you know example of   what was going on in the way that grant actually  masterminded you know this coordination of all of   the different Union armies well so you know when  Sherman was asked about grants genius as general   because he did think that was the great general  produced by the war Sherman pointed to the fact   of grants simple faith in success he said every  battle laid forward together grant was convinced   that they were going to win and Sherman said  I can only like like in Grant's simple faith   and success in battle to Christians faith in  his Savior grant and this was something that   communicated itself to the men that there was  this quiet yeah the determination as they were   used to fighting a battle and then retreating  back across the Rapidan like yeah there was a   great there's great moment in the story I actually  had thought at one point of opening the book with   him that you know when he takes over you know the  army he makes his headquarters in the field with   the Army of the Potomac and they cross the Rapidan  River at the beginning of the so-called Overland   campaign and this is the first time he's really  in charge of the Army of the Potomac and there   had been a series you know of generals going back  to McDowell and McLeod here and you know Pope and   Burnside Hooker you know me they'd all you know  failed to destroy Lee's army so after there's   the first battles is a very very bloody two-day  battle at the the wilderness and grant was very   very secretive as general that is he would not  even reveal to his top commanders what his next   move was he would just say things like the Army is  moving out tonight you know and everyone get ready   and they were really not sure you know what the  master plan was and after the two-day battle of   the wilderness you know that night he tells his  commanders to have you know the troops ready to   move out that night and the troops start moving  and the trips had been so accustomed under all   over the previous generals that after defeat you  know they would slink back towards Washington DC   licking their wounds in my feet and what happens  you know the soldiers first they kind of march   east and then they were all expecting to turn  left in other words north towards Washington   instead this entire massive army starts wheeling  around to South in other words after this very   bloody battle they're moving on to Richmond and  this great cheer goes up and grant you know on   horseback shadowy figure comes barreling down the  road and they're these tremendous cheers grant was   actually you know worried that the cheering would  tip off you know lead to the movement of the army   but it was a sort of very quiet way that he would  radiate confidence in the outcome of individual   battles and and and and and and the war and you  know immigrants famous lines the two-day battle   of Shia the first day was really a disaster for  the Union Army they were thrown back against the   Tennessee River you know and that night grant  walks up the hill it was raining so he thought   he would take refuge in a farmhouse but farm s has  been converted into a field hospital and a field   hospital in the Civil War the night after battle  essentially the surgeons so on you know amputating   limbs grant sees well you know with the blood  and the amputated limbs and even though he was   derided as a butcher he was a very sensitive very  squeamish so he goes back out into the rain and   he decides that he's just going to sleep outdoors  under the spreading branches of this tree and he's   standing there with the rain you know dripping  down the brim of his hat and Sherman comes over   to him and says grant we've had the devil's own  day but haven't we and grant looks at Sherman   says lick'em tomorrow yeah and I don't think that  there's any other general in the Civil War at that   stage of the war at that point said we go on the  offensive on the northern yeah and in fact Grant   said you know grant saw a pattern in his battles  he said the Confederates very often won the first   day they would it was kind of you know Confederate  pluck and gallantry and then the second day grants   sheer determination and will to win would begin to  have them down and he felt that the Confederates   often had the advantage the first day but the  second and third day were always his no auntie   bun and he was he was right yeah and he you  know what comes through here is his instinctive   genius for field maneuvers tactics strategy people  everything the other part of the civil war I want   to go into him I don't want to wear this joke out  but if there were a in the room where it happened   but it came out of this book to me that would  be the Appomattox Courthouse yeah well you know   it's very interesting cuz at Appomattox Courthouse  and mind you this was the third Confederate Army   that granted had captured it's very interesting  grand captured you know 1862 Confederate Army   at Fort Donelson Tennessee 1863 captures the  Confederate armies of Vicksburg and then most   famously captures Lee's army to have it Maddox  courthouse in 1865 so grant captures through the   entire Confederate armies Robert II and he never  captured a single Union Army but what happens at   Appomattox Courthouse it's politically very very  important grant is as you all know the story was   a very magnanimous the Confederate soldiers were  really starving by that point and he immediately   distributes 25,000 rations to them he allows  the ordinary soldiers to keep their horses and   mules he allows the Confederate officers to keep  their sidearms and I think very importantly grant   refuses to allow the Union soldiers to either  gloat or celebrate over this in fact Julia grant   after the fall of Richmond you know had said to  her husband that he should enter Richmond which   had been the capital of the Confederacy and grant  turns to Julia and says Julia don't you realize   how bitterly they are experiencing defeat and why  should I add to their misery at such a moment so   grant believe it or not never entered Richmond  Lincoln you will know the story Lincoln did enter   Richmond immediately afterwards and and and grant  Rancic went so far in terms of not wanting to   humiliate the South that after the war when there  was a proposal to do a big historical painting to   hang in the rotunda of the US Capitol of Lee  surrendering to grant grant refused to allow   that because he felt that it were you merely  aid the south and you know so grant becomes   the great figure of north-south reconciliation  and Appomattox and I wish that was the end of   the story but you know that it wasn't yeah right  well I actually what Grant says about that I think   is so telling about his character and I marked it  and I think it to be worth reading because these   are grants own words about that you know what I'm  talking yeah this is a beautiful passage from the   personal memoirs of you this is s grant maybe the  most famous passage well general these feelings   were I do not know as he was a man of much dignity  with an impassible face it was impossible to say   whether he felt inwardly glad that the end had  finally come or felt sad over the result and was   too manly to show it whatever his feelings they  were entirely concealed from my observation but   my own feelings which had been quite jubilant  on the receipt of his letter announcing that   he won't surrender but my own feelings which have  been quite jubilant on the receipt of his letter   were sad and depressed I felt like anything rather  than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had   fought so long and valiantly and it suffered so  much for a cause though that cause was I believe   one of the worst for which of people ever fought  and one for which there was the least excuse well   that's not only beautifully yea written but  you know that formulation of simultaneously   acknowledging the Valor of the Confederate troops  at the same time saying that this was a completely   yeah misguided thing and then you know it's very  interesting part of the agreement at Appomattox   very important part and less emphasized is that  grand promises Robert II leave that he and the   other Confederate generals will not be prosecuted  for treason after the war now grant did this even   though he thought that they had committed murders  and he felt this very strongly but grant felt that   they could never have ended the war at that point  if the Confederate generals felt that there have   to be prosecuted for treason after the world  anyway what happens and this was probably about   six weeks after Appomattox there's a grand jury  in Norfolk Virginia that indeed wants to indict   for treason not just Lee but James Longstreet  and Joseph Johnson in other words kind of the   main Confederate generals well what happens  is and Lee was thunderstruck Lee you know   contacts grant and said I thought you promised  at Appomattox Courthouse that there would be no   treason prosecution and Lee was right grant goes  to President Johnson who succeeded Lincoln after   the assassination and Johnson at that point he  changes his view after is at that point Andrew   Johnson saying treason is odious he's on the  warpath for revenge and grant goes to the White   House and says to Johnson you have to squash this  treason indictment because I promised Lee that he   wouldn't be indicted that promise was backed  up by Abraham Lincoln and the world in Grant's   estimation would have gone on for another year  without that promise Johnson doesn't want to go   along with that he wants to prosecute and then  grant finally has to kind of play you know no   it's a trump card I did a grand finally has to  say to him that he will resign as he was still   General in chief that he would resign if there was  a treason prosecution and at that point President   Johnson did indeed give orders that the recent  prosecutions would be quashed so grin saved saved   Lee but you know it was kind of I think about  it it was a very mixed blessing because maybe   what we needed after the Civil War was a kind  of Truth and Reconciliation process of actually   confronting what had happened and the reality that  the South you know had fought to preserve slavery   and I think that it's one reason that there still  is a lot of unfinished business in this country   surrounding the sound war because there was never  that kind of confrontation legal and moral and   political confrontation with what had really  happened and then there was a whole school of   thought that began to dominate the South it's kind  of known as the lost cause and the lost cause and   this started right after the war the lost cause  began to essentially rewrite history began to   romanticize the Confederacy the tenets of the Lost  Cause routes that the slaves are really happy and   contented the slaves resented the abolitionists  the Lost Cause school said that the war was not   over slavery was our state's rights lost coach  school said the greater General was robert e   lee grant was just a brutal butcher and then you  know it was reconstruction went on the lost cause   school said that reconstruction was not a noble  experiment in trying to create a fully biracial   society what was this terrible fiasco of carpetbag  politicians from the north and the literate black   legislators and these all became very you know  incorporated into southern dogma and in fact   this was the political backdrop to all of these  Confederate monuments and started going up around   1875 in other words towards the end of Grant's  second term as as presidents I was Faulkner said   you know the past is never past we're actually  still living with these two competing narratives   of what happened that's an interesting thing  because Lincoln had certainly set the tone   with his second inaugural so grant was just  picking that up you've you've taken us nicely   too Grint as president because reconstruction was  obviously one of his biggest thing so let's let's   go to that phase of his life yeah because I think  particularly I was saying earlier you know people   associate his presidency with the scandals the  nepotism those things happen I go into them in   great length in the book I'm not trying to excuse  them but Grant was not personally involved in the   scandals actually he insisted that the scandals  be vigorously prosecuted but what I try to show   in the book is that even though you know those  scandals have defined the historic stereotype   of grants presidency the big story far and away  the big story is what grant did to protect the   four million former slaves who by the thirteenth  amendment of slavery was abolished by the 14th   amendment they're given full citizenship rights  and by the 15th amendment most significantly   they're given the right to vote and by the time  grant becomes president there is a full there   was a terrible violent reaction going on in the  south in the form of the Ku Klux Klan let me just   sketch in a little background on the Klan because  the Klan starts in 1866 in place called Pulaski   Tennessee it starts out innocuously enough was  the kind of social club for confederate veterans   they tend to assume the character of a militia you  know and within a year or two the Klan has spread   throughout the south and the Klan begins to at  night on hoods and robes and go out on horseback   and terrorize the black community because the  black community was voting in great numbers it's   kind of very impressive you know the had just  gotten the vote and in many southern counties   black participation rates 70% to blacks turning  out 90% of blacks turning out this was sort of   due credit to us today to have those kinds of you  know voting rates in the electorate and so blacks   constituted more than a third of the southern  population in states like South Carolina and   Mississippi actually majority of the population  which meant that if the blacks dared to exercise   their right to vote that they would actually have  a significant power maybe even controlling powers   so the Klan begins a reign of terror and not tens  not hundreds but thousands emphasized thousands   of blacks were murdered in the South without a  single prosecution there was no southern jury   that would convict a member of the Klan there  was no southern white who would testify against   a member Klan there was no southern sheriff who  would dare to arrest a member of the Klan ulysses   s grant the Justice Department was created during  his first term as president grant was the moving   force behind something called the Ku Klux Act  that gave him the power to declare martial law   suspend habeas corpus and he appoints a crusading  attorney general from Georgia named Amos Ackerman   and under Grant the Justice Department brings  3,000 indictments against the Ku Klux Klan they   win more than a thousand convictions and as  Frederick Douglass said the slaughter and   scourging that my people have have ceased this is  such an enormous thing so much more important than   you know the scandals which again did not involve  grant and yet it's become a forgotten chapter of   American history and required a lot of courage  because grant not only had to do this in the   tape obviously a massive resistance from the white  South but drink this two-term presidency there's a   shrinking base in the north where there's a lot of  racism and interestingly enough it was the it was   kind of the liberal wing of the Republican Party  mm-hmm that began to retreat from reconstruction   so that Grant is kind of fighting a battle  on two fronts most obviously against white   Democrats in the in the south but also a against  you know with his own shrinking Republican base   and I just think it's one of the most courageous  you know in farsighted things that any American   president has done and you know unfortunately  there's been a kind of complete amnesia yeah   and that's where for example Horace Greeley comes  in honest at the second term election right yeah I   love grants lying about how he said Horace Greeley  who was the editor of the New York Tribune he said   ours Greeley was a genius without common sense it  kind of delightful dry yeah also you know kind of   a great adversary during this period was Charles  Sumner mmm-hmm who was the imperious head of the   Senate Foreign Relations Committee and Sumner was  terrific terms of abolition but boy I mean he was   a very egotistical and difficult character and  Grant had a couple priceless lines about Charles   Sumner he was once asked if he had ever heard  Sumner converse and he said no but I've heard him   lecture and he once was was told that somebody did  not believe in the Bible and Grant said of course   not he didn't write it but it was interesting  when said you know grant was two-term president   actually was the only two-term president between  Andrew Jackson and Andrew Wilson sir he became a   very very adroit politician but can't to give  you a little bit of the flavor of the politics   of the period this is white supremacy business  as oh yeah and it's not new and he mean I just   reinforcing what you said he used every tool bar  in the in his toolkit that he could as president   to try to stop this but absolutely you know here  in 1868 his first election he runs against a man   named Horatio Seymour who was governor of New York  and the platform of Democratic Party in 1868 was   this is a white man's government yeah Andrew  Johnson who was the president preceding grant   grant as president he said this is a white man's  government and goddamnit as long as I'm president   the white man will rule I mean this was how didn't  the out in the open and that when you know Horace   Greeley ran against Grant in 1872 really said you  know we have to kind of shake hands with the south   across the bloody castering that was you know  his big line and so and you know one thing that   I was very very fascinated there's a four year  period between the end of the Civil War and the   beginning of grants presidency when he still does  general-in-chief he's even Acting Secretary of War   and there and these are very very important years  also because what I discovered was that there was   a civil rights movement than the sound that again  it's been completely completely forgotten in 1867   the Radical Republicans in Congress the first  reconstruction act divides the south into five   military districts the district in Louisiana  and Texas the commander was Phil Sheridan who   we all know from the the Civil War Phil Sheridan  in 1867 writes led to grant again grant is still   the general and chief so the five commanders are  all reporting to him 1867 Phil Sheridan writes   grant the letter from New Orleans that absolutely  astounded me because he writes to grant he said we   desegregated streetcars in New Orleans this week  and he proceeds to tell the story that blacks and   whites rode on separate streetcars and he said  that the black streetcars had a star on the side   to identify them as black only and then there  were white only street dress he said that the   blacks in protest at this segregation had begun  to pour onto the white streetcars the streetcar   companies wanting to maintain this segregation  then appeal to Sheridan and Sheridan says to   these two these Street car companies he said that  if they don't integrate streetcars that they will   not be able to operate right and so then Sheridan  writes very proudly to grant he said there was a   little bit of a ruckus at first you know when  I made this decision but he said I'm happy to   report now that blacks and whites are riding  side-by-side on streetcars in New Orleans 1867   folks Wow and mind Joe you will probably know the  story of Rosa Parks yeah this was 90 years before   Sheridan is writing that many blacks are pouring  on to the white streetcars we don't know their   names and it wasn't just one person or you know  doing it and so there was this entire civil rights   movement budding in the south we you all know the  Civil Rights Act of 1964 the Voting Rights Act of   1965 but how many people know the Civil Rights  Act of 1866 the Civil Rights Act of 1875 which   banned desegregation in public accommodations and  transportation and you know juries etc it's just   so interesting what we as a country have decided  to forget and to yeah that's as you were talking   that's what was pounding out of my mouth was why  as a generalization why have we kind of whited   out the history speriod of history pardon yeah I  you know I read I've read recently and I highly   recommended a beautiful book written by David  Blade historian at Yale called race and reason   everyone in fact get the whole backdrop to the  Confederate monuments it's a wonderful book you   know and what he shows was that after the Civil  War in an attempt to create reconciliation and   there would be all of these events like all  of the veterans of Gettysburg you know both   the blue and the gray you know they would meet and  they would you know embrace you know and that was   nice that was important that we heal as a country  was important that we have reconciliation but what   he argues in the book which I think was you know  definitely true was that that came at a price and   when what the price was to you know de-emphasize  emancipation and race relations and all of these   different things and to create a kind of false  equivalency that they were brave you know Union   soldiers and they were brave Confederate soldiers  and they would meet on these battlefields you   know after the war and embrace again and I think  that it's one of the the reasons why that there   are so many Americans who it's very impressive  to me there's so many Americans who know their   Civil War battles in great detail and they know  all the maneuvers and the generals and that's   great but I have been struck by how many people  who very detailed press ibly detailed knowledge   of the Civil War know little or nothing about  reconstruction and I feel it's kind of Civil   War reconstruction we're two acts of the same  drama and if you know everything about Civil   War and nothing about reconstruction it's a little  bit like walking out in the middle of a play and   the play ends very differently from the way you  would think if you just sat you know through the   first two or three acts of a five act drama and  I would add that not understanding reconstruction   and its failure is a handicap to understanding our  current problems absolutely you know and you can't   understand why to this day there's a solid South  without understanding reconstruction because the   solid South you know up until the time LBJ signed  the Voting Rights Act there was a solid democratic   South you know now we have a solid Republican  South but the south continues to function you know   as an economic bloc and it's really because you  know during reconstruction grant has to repeatedly   send in federal troops in order to prevent  massacres against black citizens and the South   raises the cry of bayonet rule and Cesar ISM and  you know so the south develops his rather extreme   hostility toward federal action raises the banner  of states rights and really functions very much   as a political unit and that political culture  still exists and I think you know underlies a   lot of him but we still see to this this day the  past is not past as mr. Faulkner said right and   I'm gonna start say going into audience questions  and one of them is extremely timely to grants very   enlightened attitude towards African Americans  and that was a question is regarding his attitude   towards Native America that's a very good question  yeah because it's an important part of the the   story I perhaps concentrate more in the book on  African Americans than a Native Americans but what   happens when grant becomes president you know he's  to an unusual extent he was very very sympathetic   towards the mistreatment of Native Americans  and I have quotes in the book you know Sherman   supposes Sheridan supposedly said you know that  no-good Indian but I'd bring a dead Indian now   Sherman said writes to Sheridan the more Indians  we kill this year the fewer will have to kill next   year I mean there was a very very bloodthirsty  attitude from all these generals that fought in   the civil civil world grant from the time that  he was a young soldier posted on in in Northern   California actually he was at Fort Humboldt which  was up around Eureka right and then also Vancouver   barracks across the river from Portland and even  at that he wrote very sympathetically about Native   Americans he always said that Native Americans  needed as much protection from the white man you   know was his vice versa so he becomes president  and he says things you know in in in in one speech   he said I never could believe that the Lord put  different races on the earth so that the stronger   could exterminate the weaker this was talking  about Native Americans so I mean it's kind of   full of good intentions he was friends with a man  named Eli Parker whom he had in Galena Illinois he   makes Eli Parker was a full-blooded Seneca sachem  he makes Eli Parker his first head of the Bureau   of Indian Affairs first Commissioner of Indian  Affairs and there was a lot of corruption going   on with the Indian reservations of crooked  government agents you know selling Indians   shoddy goods or overpriced goods grant actually  strikes a deal with the Quakers and replaces all   these corrupt agents with Quaker agents because  he felt that the Quakers had a good history with   Native Americans unfortunately the story ends  badly yeah the story ends very badly because   ultimately in spite of all of his good intentions  grant believes that as he said you know and should   be Christianized and civilized that they should  go to reservations they should speak English they   should become farmers and for the Indians this  was kind of offering them a suicide pact for their   culture and then what happens in the last analysis  grants constituency the West the Western settlers   and the mining companies right the railroads I  mean there's just tremendous you know expansion   going on across the country and unfortunately  the story I wish I could report that the ending   was happier but gold was found in the Black Hills  even though that area had been ceded to the Iguazu   and so grants administration in July 1876 towards  the close of his second term Custer and his men   are massacred at Little Bighorn and what happened  you know after that massacre was that hue and cry   went up you know in Congress and across the nation  for revenge against Native Americans so there's a   tremendous you know increase in you know military  forts and actions against Native Americans and   just a very punitive and vengeful actions so  you know grants policy kind of paved with good   intentions unfortunately the road leads to a very  bad place mm-hmm and continues to another question   that really ties into our narrative here's grant  ended his presidency extremely popular his second   term in fact he all had that he almost ran for  a third term but he tried yeah and so he ends   on this point of popularity yet in 1948 Arthur  Schlessinger published a list of presidents and   only Warren Harding was below grant on the list  yeah and laughingly yes so he's kind of next to   the bottom yeah in 1948 the most recent poll of  presidential historians I saw placed him number   22 which means he was moved up from almost last to  the middle of the pack and I think that he's going   to go higher I think there's a you know in the in  the stock market of historic reputation yeah bull   market by grand shares at the at the moment and  so I think he's getting his due and I was talking   earlier about that lost cause school that lost  cause school also really glorified Lea denigrated   grant both as a general and as a president and  it's amazing how influential that was not only   in the South but in the north and just to give  it a very simple illustration of that it amazes   me that to this day the greatest Hollywood movie  about the Civil War is Gone with the Wind yeah   which completely reflects the lost cause view and  the movie opens and all the slaves are happily   singing and the fields and they're fussing  over their masters I mean it's amazing that   you know in many ways the the North militarily  won the war then you know lost the subsequent   peace and so it's only and it's not just my book  I mean because there been a number of books about   grant in recent years good books and you know  we're all kind of coming out with a much much   higher estimation of grant and again I think that  didn't know this reflects our values it reflects   our I think greater sensitivity on racial issues  what he did to protect mm-hmm the african-american   community of the South is no longer regarded  as kind of minor story of his presidency nor   did grant regarded as such and I think that after  Lincoln died granted been tremendously influenced   by Lincoln he made a very interesting statement  because you know they were 1864 Lincoln had to   run for your election during the war and grant  you never writes a letter and he says I think   that Lincoln's re-election is as important as  anything going on in in the battlefield so I   think that after Lincoln is assassinated and Grant  said of Lincoln he was incontestably the greatest   man that I know I think that grant takes the  agenda Lincoln's agenda of the war preservation   of the Union and emancipation and I think that  that really defines his agenda for the rest of   his life he really gets religion on those issues  and Lincoln that enormous influence on them yeah   I love the phrase in the second inaugural and  the war came yeah you know like there's nobody   at fault in passive voice and and seems as though  grant picked up where Lincoln left off in carrying   that theme but he doesn't get credit for that  or at least I mean go back to our whitehouse.gov   summary of his president yeah and again you know a  Lincoln you know would that he had lived and dealt   with this in terms of how Lincoln might have dealt  with reconstruction is a fascinating question you   know Whitman another great statement about you  know granted reconstruction he said grant was   faced with a problem of peace as great as any  problem the of the war and you know Lincoln   real associates second inaugural malice toward  none charity for all and grant Lincoln says to   grant late in the in the war he said we don't  want to be hanging the Confederates afterwards   we want to be hanging on to the Confederates  after us so he's talking and you know a very   kind of liberal and humane and charitable way but  Lincoln felt tremendous responsibility for those   4 million if suddenly were full-fledged American  citizens and it's absolutely impossible for me to   imagine that Abraham Lincoln would somehow have  been indifferent to the murder of thousands of   African American citizens after the the war and I  think he would have done exactly what grant yeah   you know dad would have sent federal troops and  himself there's an excellent question which is   perhaps a way for us to wrap up which is what is  the access to archives and information on Grant   that may help future historians under that's a  great question you know I just got an email just   three days ago from the Michelle Corral who's  the head of the Civil War and reconstruction at   the Library of Congress and she said to me the  grand papers have now been digitized they're   online his papers you actually want to see the  you know original documents online he's just a   click away which is so extraordinary where do you  go what's the what's the link I yeah I don't know   it's kind of HTTP I didn't yeah I'll let you folks  figure that one out weld is not good at that you   know backslash backslash but one of the reasons  I decide to write the book was that between 1967   and 2012 in addition of grants papers 32 fake  volumes were published before that there had been   no volume not even a small addition of his papers  those 32 volumes contain 50,000 documents papers   written by to or about grant the there's something  it's now believe it or not at Mississippi State   University ulysses s grant Presidential Library  not only has those fifty thousand documents but   another two hundred thousand documents so I just  realized that this was a scholarly feast and that   you know we know more about Ulysses and Julia  know where his point that really that the ideal   materials were at hand and I think that you  know in the earlier years Grant was not taken   seriously enough you know to kind of warrant the  sort of additions the papers that I worked with   for Alexander Hamilton or George Washington and I  think that I feel like I and you know a number of   recent historians the editors of the US current  papers make us look very good in fact there's a   man named John Roy Simon who died a few years  ago who really was the moving force behind the   grant papers and I wish he had lived long enough  for me to meet him and thank him because I feel   like we're all you know standing on his shoulders  here and if we see farther is because we have all   these you know unsung scholarly heroes in the  background who don't get to sit on stages like   this but they're kind of doing the quiet scholarly  work that really forms the basis of all of his   biographies and his personal memoirs are such a  work of literature yeah and there's also the grant   library down Mississippi they just published a  wonderful for the first time an annotated edition   of the memos careful but put out by Harvard  University Press so I'd love it if you read my   book but by all means go and you know read great  memoirs if you've never read them you're in for a   great treat well read this book and then answer my  okay I'm so in happy and appreciative of the fact   you could be here and that you are contributing so  much to our understanding of Washington Hamilton   Grant and whoever is next my great pleasure  and thank you for coming thank you guys

Channel: Commonwealth Club of California

Views: 17,455

Rating: 4.8550725 out of 5

Keywords: Ron Chernow, Pulitizer Prize, Historian, President Barak Obama, Alexander Hamilton, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Civil War, Ulysses S. Grant, Commonwealth Club of California, San Francisco

Id: LgVqOdTy8o4

Length: 61min 31sec (3691 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 23 2017