AMX-13 | Tank Chats #174

this tank chat is going to be about this vehicle the amx13 light tank a French tank that uh started its design process just after World War II a vehicle that's still in service to this day over 7,700 of these vehicles have been built just under half of those have been exported around the world so a very important vehicle of the postwar ERA this video has been made possible by our supporters on patreon our YouTube members and our super thanks donors please join them if you can and support the tank Museum and thanks for watching now back to World War II France the free French forces are mainly equipped the armored forces by the Americans uh in the later stages of World War II uh deal as the French leader he's very keen that French military Industries get started again as soon as possible um because obviously France has been occupied some of the design work some of the planning even begins before the end of the occupation um but deal is really what he's trying to do is he's trying to make sure France is in a good position in that postwar world because France was an Empire it had colonies uh it wanted to get back to that status after the second world war and it knew there was going to be problems there uh so it starts planning processes for a series of airplanes vehicles that France is going to produce but it knows at the same time really importantly it also knows that America is going to be a key Ally because France for some considerable time is going to have to use American equipment and America being now the world's probably first superpower is going to have to help Finance not just France but the rest of Europe get off its feet and get going again in the postwar world now initially America is worried about its kit being used to help Britain and France actually reestablish their colonial empires they're not too sure about this but that tends to go out the window as the fear of Communism increases and you end up with in 1948 the Americans start something called or they pass the mutual defensive Aid act and that basically means large sums of money are going to be uh available to Allied Nations to help reform their forces and America seeing this as not just a good thing to do but a thing to do because of that fear of Communism and France can help be a Bastion against that you've also of course got the martial Aid plan which is helping to uh rebuild Europe on the civilian side as well um so America is a very important stakeholder in the French postwar economy but also in the building of the French military again after the second world war Now France before in the 1930s it's got a a defa an agency which basically helped plan the way the French military uh and Industry are going to interact and what's going to be required and have we got a sort of overall strategic plan and structure for actually making equipment now one of those key players who's part of this is a French en called General demitz and he's put in charge of what is going to be the light tank program that France is at the moment it's using American chaffy tanks what's going to be the French light tank of that postwar era and general demitz argues quite coherently that look France won't be able to maintain garrisons in all its colonies around the world and its placees spheres of Interest so it's not going to be able to have that many troops available to be able to do do that so why not make sure we have a strong paratrooper force and that paratrooper force can be flown to where the issue is or flown to support that individual militia or whatever it happens to be in that relevant colony and they may may encounter enemy tanks in which case we're going to need a light tank that's air portable and he pushes for the idea of a 12 ton light air portable vehicle now that idea is are argued around within the French and a key player as a designer of this who pre-World War II he worked for AMX he goes to America and studies in America during the second world war and he becomes a key designer of what this vehicle is going to be this light tank is going to be his name is Joseph molan and he pushes forward as well the idea we're going to need a powerful gun and keep that weight down for the air portability and and he ends up working overseeing what the company that AMX which is ultimately going to build this vehicle now they argue the case that they want a 75mm gun they go to a number of French companies three actually put forward proposals for this vehicle uh fcm is one of those companies they're basically saying what's the hull going to be that's going to carry that 75mm gun fcm one of the French companies comes up with a quite complex hydropneumatic system AMX uh the French company um that mol had worked for before the second world war their offer has a quite simple shell but quite radical in some of its design process um they are looking at putting an engine in the front of the vehicle they know that this 75 mm gun is likely to be a long gun we'll look at that in a moment so let's have the turret at the the back because you don't want a massive overhang of your gun and the problems that can sometimes cause and they go as well for torsion bar suspension five road wheels on either side torsion bar suspension that is the chassis that is chosen by the French authorities and that leads forward um to become what we now know as of the amx13 tank uh 1949 they start uh the process to build some five prototypes have started to be put together and they immediately start encountering some of the problems that is going to be devil this story which is you have an aspiration the postwar world comes into play and it knocks some of those aspirations of course um what you've got there is first of all so they wanted this vehicle to be airportable part of their planning was there was going to be a plane that could take that vehicle around the world actually the budgets aren't there to create an air portable or a plane that's big enough to be able to take the 12 and then the 13 ton AMX tank around the world um so very quickly this early aspiration for the air portability that goes into its its 12ton makeup is dropped and very quickly we're up to by 49 it's now being called the amx13 the tonnage has gone up from AMX 12 um so 13 tons so uh the design process what are they going to come up with well for the hull they end up with a matys watercooled petrol engine about 250 horsepower 8 cylinder and that means you'll get about 37 miles out of a 13 ton Vehicles it's top speed so quite a speedy vehicle for that sort of early era that we've got there and that'll give it about 250 M range um they're going to put that on the side at the front of the vehicle transmission across the front and have the driver sit next to at the front of the vehicle sit next to that engine so as I mentioned the fact that this gun that they want to put on it is going to be a long 75 mimet gun turret is going to go at the rear that 75 mm again the gun the CN 7550 gun it's been developed and this is where we have to be careful with our language because we often say it's developed from the k W k42 L70 the gun that was on the panther actually people get upset about that if you're saying it that way it's inspired by you might be they're looking for the same outcomes as the gun on the panther might be a better way of saying it um they're not actually using the same Barrel the breach Etc this is all really a new French design but they want to match it to The lethality that was there on that Panther gun um from World War II so this gun that's come up with a CN 7550 gun it will fire an armor piercing round at about 1,000 m a second that will penetrate 175 mm of armor plate um so it's a powerful gun but it's also that long gun they give it a muzzle break um it can fire armor piercing high explosive um but you've got then the issue of how are we going to Mountain this is one of those radical features of the amx13 they go to a company called five Le um which is it's basically a suburb of Le they named after the company named after that suburb they are the ones who designed this radical new turret uh Misha the designer he's coming up now with this idea of an oscillating turret so we have a turret in two parts the top part is the gun doesn't have its own mantlet in this traditional sense the gun is fixed to the roof or the top part of the turret and that means to say that if you put an autoloader on that top part you've got no issues about trying to actually angle the gun for an autoloader to feed in the round it's actually all on one plane together so they build this new turret with an autoloader system at the back a carousel system with two carousels of six rounds each so this can fire 12 rounds through that autol system before it's going to need resupply or restocking the carousels cases are ejected out of a small port at the rear of the turret when the gun has fired so this automation means that you've now got only two crew members needed in the turret you've got the driver down the front of course so third member but you've got a commander and a gunner who's aiming the gun and firing that gun you don't need a loader in a traditional sense rounds can individually be loaded but in essence the argument is you take go away from the Battlefront after you f your 12 rounds you need to actually reload the rounds from the top of the turret if you're going to feed into those carousels um 12 rounds to load again and then back into action so their planning process is to always really have two AMX 13s in action together so one can cover the other should reloading be needed in a combat situation um it also is fitted with a co-axial machine gun 7.5 Mac 31 that's basically the pre-war French tank machine gun very reliable very uh sensible choice in many ways at this early postwar period 150 round drums of ammunition are carried as well and there's a co-a machine gun sometimes they put a mount in front of the Commander's position as well so you could mount a machine gun there the turret is made up of a casting on the front that's about 40 mm thick thickest armor and about 15 mm thinnest armor on the side and rear um when you look at that what they're saying at the time is really this is only going to be proof against small arms and shell splinters you are not there to take rounds uh 20 mm above will probably penetrate um your frontal arcs of armor on an amx13 um end of the' 40s February 1950 the first turret is off for trials they buil 12 prototypes and then of course marrying these two things together you've in essence got now the amx13 as a vehicle it is sent off to abdine Proving Ground in the states and this is part of the issue the French have to convince the Americans that this is a project worth funding um with that defensive money that they've put up so it is shown off in 49 and 1950 um the American say one point where there 300 American and French officers all descend on abdon to see the trials of this vehicle uh they argue the Americans say yep we like this we want a timetable and the Americans put pressure on the France French to really keep this project going and keep a momentum behind it so it doesn't dissipate into uh you know a decade or so before something actually reaches the troops at those trials by the way there are projects that the French are coming up with that the Americans refuse to fund so for example the amx-50 tank they're not going there they don't think that's a good idea or or a sensible spend of the money back in France a conglomerate is put together three state arsenals four private companies come together and uh production begins there are as inevitably with projects like this early teething troubles uh the first vehicles are actually shown on a Basel Day Parade as early as is 1951 but it's quite sometime later before up to 54 some people say before they really getting out to the French troops uh in numbers and as they're producing these vehicles the hulls um the Mattis original engine company they go bankrupt so they're taken over uh things change as inevitably with large Productions run four different types and identifiable Hull uh types so you've got major changes so they tend to go under uh letters 2 a 2 b 2 C 2D um for the hulls as improvements are being made on that production run five different turret um configurations in essence are going on there with slight variations whether we got rubber or canvas gas stics uh where the join is um so things Chang during the production the French are looking at this vehicle that air portability they later on they're still trying trying to find ways you could put it in a plane um they do experiments they they end up having to take it into three major component parts taking it apart that way so you know whether you can really claim that's air portable because it's going to take quite some time to put a tank back together again but so they look at giving these um tanks initially to the Cavalry um the French go through in the 50s and 60s a series of changes with their formations how are they going to use armor what is going to be a side who should have the armor the lighter armor they've tried already early 50s they look at using the mx13 as potentially a wrecky vehicle too noisy they come back straight away they prefer the wield armor for reconnaissance um so like Cavalry units end up having uh these AMX 13s initially but France also just like so many other countries they're being hit by not only the economic circumstances but the world situation they've been fighting in Indo China they end up fighting as well in Algeria that puts various projects off course and delays and changes what was originally the French design and uh aims for the use of this amx13 tank now the vehicles are used um you see them in sez two squadrons go out to sez there uh alongside American m47s that the French are using they're also used out in the Far East but one of the problems is if you're trying to fire in counter Insurgency rols Algeria Far East they were looking as well for a better high explosive charge than what was being fired by the 75 mm gun so one of these changes and there's quite a number of projects to either up gun or change their mx13 one of those first projects is the idea of taking basically the chaffy turret giving a new turret ring on top of the AMX Hull dropping down the chaffy turret they ended up calling these they converted about 150 of them uh and they ended up calling them AMX us us tank turret that they're putting on there and they were the original intention there is because basically the chaffier has got a better high explosive charge on that 75 mm gun that it's carrying uh that meant the crew of course went up to four on those particular variants they weren't in service that long they were done particularly for this counterinsurgency Ro to fire a better high explosive charge when that was over most of these AMX us Vehicles had the turrets taken back off and many of them were then converted into turretless driver training tanks in service that way but this uh project it also looked at the end of the 1950s they looking at the fact that actually the world's changing out there can we with that gun 75 mm meter the French are saying to themselves actually we're now in a position that fine for Ambush fine for hit and run using the mx's good speed 37 milph Mobility but actually if that gun won't penetrate things like the frontal armor of the t54 55 then we're in trouble so upgrade programs to the Firepower start relatively early on one of those programs leads to something called the amx3 that looking at a French designed 105 mm gun that they end up um being able to put on what they then called the LL uh 12 turret it has a double muzzle break at the end it's a very impressive uh engineering feat but the French can't really afford to do this with the numbers of AMX 13s they've got in service at the time so even though there's an up gunning program there that program ends up only being offered for export sales and this of course is a vehicle we'll look at in a moment that is really their V very keen on those export sales to help build their own industry and again secure these markets around the world the French meanwhile though still having that problem of being able to up gun they come to a cheaper and more practical for them solution which is basically bore out your 75 mm High velocities gun make the medium velocity and that gun becomes the 90 mm cn90 what they call the cn90 F3 gun now for that they don't need a muzzle break on the end of the gun because again the pressures inside are not so great they uh it's got less recoil so from that point of view it's actually quite good on a smaller vehicle that way they add a thermal sleeve to that gun again because now the metal is thinner they don't want to any warping bending making that gun inaccurate after it's been firing a few rounds back to if you got a cold wind blowing across it give it that thermal sleeve and they end up converting about 875 of the French Fleet and that's a fleet that then with this new gun continues serving in French service right through into the middle of the 1980s so it adds about 20 years to the AMX 13's life um so and I got with that as well they add infrared SES for the gun system infrared infrared night driving sites for the driver as well so uh these are improvements that help keep that vehicle into the French service in the front line Because by the end of the 60s the amx3 is coming into service and that of course is actually really uh it's a you might call a medium weight tank but it's taking over some of the roles that the amx13 was needed for originally when there were larger numbers in French service another way of upgrading the Firepower on amx13 is by looking at the ss11 uh missile Nord Aviation the French are pushing the idea of wire guided missiles in the 1950s they're leading the way in some of this what you've got with uh the ss11 missile system um 3,000 M range 660 mm of armor can be penetrated by that Hollow charge Warhead on that missile and that basically means that that can destroy any known tank in service at this particular time so the French authorities start looking at ways of mounting the ss11 missile system on the turrets of amx13 Tanks um in actual fact it's a French officer that comes up with a very simple idea of firing these missiles from rails that are attached to the outside of the turret and that becomes a very simple way of mounting four ss11 missiles which again as soon as they've been fired you've just basically got your standard um amx13 tank underneath with its full complement of ammunition there afterwards so with some of these mx13 tanks coming out of French army service these are available for selling on and as I've mentioned the sales Drive behind amx13 has been there right from the word go um initially the French are looking to sell to neutral countries we've already looked at our video our tank chat on the Centurion tank being sold to Switzerland the Swiss sent and that story goes in there where the French are coming along really competing with Britain at the same time saying look we've got this new tank the mx13 it's going to be available soon why don't you buy to that France ultimately it sells 200 AMX 13s to the Swiss 55 when Britain's uh we've got over the Korean War uh Switzerland finally then goes back and buys Centurion tanks it's a tricky era because you know what was the amx13 up against well from the Soviet side You could argue pt-76 is being touted around the world about the same time the Americans The m41 Walker Bulldog You could argue on that firepl on the amx13 is better than what's being offered by the Americans and the Soviets there some neutral countries there's certainly there's a market there initially uh for the amx13 and some countries of course when France makes a deal with Israel it will sell weapon systems to Israel where many other countries aren't uh don't think that's right at the time so Israel again is a big user as well as India and then this plethora of other countries end up buying including other countries in Europe the Netherlands Etc um end up buying quantities of AMX 13s quite often with subtle differences again on their orders so there will be differences across that amx13 Fleet now that story of the sales around the world because of course France at this time is competing with other nations like America but also Britain Britain's another one of those countries that was really Keen to get sales around the world post World War II because basically we were bankrupt in Britain at the time so how do you make money again and one interesting bit of paperwork I found in the archives worth reading because it shows a light number one on what was going on at the time in terms of sales and some of the issues there but it also dated 1968 get some contemporary views on the amx13 and its pros and cons in service but the letter originally comes from the ministry of Defense it's basically going out to a number of British defense attaches and interested parties saying this we are at the moment encountering competition in many countries from French afes in particular the amx13 and also some of the Armored Cars we are trying to get together some Consolidated information on our competitors on these French vehicles and their weapons which will enable our attaches to be properly armed to further our interests what we are obviously looking for are adverse comments on the effectiveness handleability and reliability of these French Vehicles as compared to what we have to offer so we kind of almost you know this sort of thing is going to be going on but it's lovely seeing this uh as a real item as a letter that was being sent out and we've got some of the responses in the file as well and that's quite interesting because they're contemporary views of the pros and cons of the amx13 and one of these comes back from the British defense attache actually in France having had good relations at samur Etc coming back having spoken as well to French mx13 crws good points agility powerful gun using heat uh effective up to 1,600 M autonomy uh roughly a battlefield day 8 to 10 hours good silhouette with the oscillating turret low profile vehicle another point we haven't really mentioned but it is a lowprofile vehicle speed 37 mil on the road 30 to 40 mil cross country and then to counter that the bad points crew Comfort not good um even from the French who were serving on this uh were saying it's just mediocre in terms of uh uh you know what it feels like being inside there secondary Armament is in Ager to no nuclear protection very thin armor so vulnerable three-man crew makes for crew fatigue conventional gearbox leads to different difficulties it's noisy and it's not robust um that's one of the reports that's talking on this um other ones come back about uh Cruise space very rest restricted although air portable it needs 15 very large aircraft to carry a squadron's worth um this one we're talking 90 mm low pressure Cannon fires fit stabilize Hollow charge low muzzle velocity accurate only up to 1,000 meter after firing 12 rounds the tank must retire um to for crew member to Dismount and reload ideally the tanks have to operate in pairs to cover this uh armor thickness is mentioned again not being particularly strong gun will only depress to 6° over the frontal Arc uh mx13 has not been in production for 3 or four years all tanks are therefore quite old including those that have been upgunned this comes out for some sales to um there's metal fatigue and some of the ones sold to the Dutch um and there's a series of issues that are sort of mentioned there of trying to look at how one might be able to sell your own kit better but it also helps us understand what was thought at the time there is an uh uh an argument here saying the mx13 was designed for crew members of 5'7 height despite this the cruise space is extremely limited so limited in fact the French used a wheel vehicle for carrying the cruise kit I'm not sure if that's completely true it may have been true in one particular instance or other but again so there's a series there of how people were judging this vehicle um it is whatever those criticisms we've got to say it's a massively successful vehicle there's so many examples of it being in combat I can't really talk about all of them sometimes it comes out on tops again perhaps due to crew training and the Tactical use there other times isra is withdrew it from service quite earlier because one of the points in these reports if you're up against proper inverted commas in other words medium weight or main battle tanks then all of a sudden you are very vulnerable in an amx13 because you don't have those levels of protection Ambush situations fine but in open Warfare as Israelis found in the desert they were very vulnerable in their AMX 13s the amx13 as well um worth talking about because it leads to a whole series of variants so the APC variant becomes the AMX VT we have one here in the museum um they mount a 105 then can you believe a 155 haritz are on the top of this chassis that comes the AMX Mark 61 62 63 depending on the uh size of the gun and the uh configuration there again they're used by many countries around the world and someone's estimated there are probably about a 100 uh sort of subvariant of the amx13 or derivatives um that were produced over time only in the mid 1980 did they replace the uh petrol engine with a diesel but there's still an offer because we've now still got five countries using their MX and next to the French uh military Consortium big company they're still offering upgrades and servicing of amx13 vehicles because they're still out there so there were 26 countries using it um from the early 1950s we're now down to five countries using it as I mentioned earlier 7,700 Vehicles being produced that's a staggeringly large number for a light tank after the second World War uh has been seen in numerous conflicts around the world no doubt it will still appear on the battlefield again in the future in some form or another so that's a very impressive story a very important vehicle

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Keywords: Bovington, Dorset, Tanks, Tankfest, tanks, tiger, chieftain, tank museum, second world war, world war two, top five tanks, tank chats, david fletcher, british army, tiger 131, royal armoured corps, tank regiment, RAC, tank museum bovington, tanklife, bovingtontank museum, military history, ww2, ww1, armoured car, tankchats, army, veteran, wwii history, world war 1, world war ii, war history, royal navy, ww2 history, royal air force, wwii museum, wwi, ww2 tanks, ww2 weapons

Id: 2K95T5d_xrk

Length: 30min 44sec (1844 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 06 2023