AMD and Intel want YOU to LIE to them

foreign welcome back to a new video this video was actually planned a little bit different because I received this nice G skill kit 7200 Mega transfers c36 and this is a 48 gigabyte kit it consists of two 24 gigabyte memory sticks which is possible because from this year there are also 24 gigabit ICS available prior to only having 16 gigabit ICS and that's quite interesting because it kind of closes the gap between the 32 gigabyte kits and also the 64 gigabyte kits and if you're like tight on a budget you could instead of getting uh like slower 64 gigabyte kit you can get a like faster performing 48 so that's kind of interesting I did some benchmarks around this and then I mean you have probably seen everything around this with the AMD CPUs dying and then CPUs dying on Asus board then Steve investigating all of this in several videos then calling out Asus for some very very questionable things and then also Jay is stepping back from having Asus as a sponsor I decided to make this more about like Expo XMP and some kind of weird warranty disclaimers this video is powered by hatzner with their brand new ex-44 dedicated root server powered by the recent Core i5 13500 with 6p and 8 equals This Server will be very efficient and at the same time powerful which allows hatzner to offer the server for only 44 Euros per month this includes 64 gigabyte of memory which can optionally be increased to 128 gigabyte if needed two 512 gigabyte Gen4 nvme ssds in raid 1 together with the gigabit connection allow a very fast workflow with unlimited traffic find out more in the link below I don't want to go through the entire background I strongly recommend to watch all the videos that Steve published around this entire topic also the one from Jay where he steps back from like working with Asus that's quite interesting but to sum it up quickly we had a very high SOC voltage of around 1.4 volt applied by the board by loading Expo profiles and this voltage on some CPUs caused the CPU to die and thus also damage the main board further and then after this was kind of public all the main board vendors rolled out new bios versions and for example Asus also did one and they stated that they are now limiting the voltage to 1.3 volt so far so good but then Steve investigated and he found out that it's not really 1.3 volt it's in reality sometimes 1.34 which is still exceeding the recommended limit which is not that great but which was actually worse was the disclaimer that was put underneath the BIOS release stating that this is a better bios and it's actually not covered by warranty which meant that it might make the situation worse for the user so in a result like prior to flash this like save bios you might had like a BIOS with a higher risk of killing the CPU but I mean the board was covered under warranty and the CPU probably as well so if everything died you would just get a new board and a new CPU but with the BIOS that's officially or according to the disclaimer not covered by warranty you would actually lose the board warranty and if it if things still die it's your fault so that's actually not that great and that's how all of this like exploded I mean there are more things to that than this that's why I would recommend to watch this video and that's where we kind of close the circle because we're now going back to the memory benchmarks especially keeping in mind Expo and XMP with the limited clocks we will now look at some benchmarks and then we will go back to some like weird disclaimers I started working on this already a few days ago and since this is an XMP kit I also chose to use a 13900 KS also because some boards are not quite ready yet for those 48 gigabyte modules and now going to the Intel Arc page of the 13900ks to check out some specifications you will see that the CPU is listed with a max memory clock of 5600 Mega transfers per second for ddr5 and Max 3200 Mega transfers per second for ddr4 and that's why I chose the benchmarks and competing memory kits accordingly we are starting with Ada 64 read and write performance with the memory Benchmark and in total I chose six memory configurations the lighter ones are the ddr4 kits and we are looking at 3200 Mega transfers per second and also a 3600 Mega transfers per second the yellow kits are ddr5 with 4800 up to 70 200 Mega transfers per second and the 7200 Mega transfers per second kit is the G skill kit I was talking about with 48 gigabyte kit size so two 24 gigabyte modules all the other kits are 32 gigabyte kits with two 16 gigabyte sticks each in the read write performance charts we can see the biggest differences a 7200 ddr5 Kit is about twice as fast as a 3200 tdr4 kit which at least on paper is quite impressive I often read people complaining about latency of ddr5 and that it's still behind ddr4 but I can also tell you that this is absolutely expected and normal here you can see that the latency of ddr4 is always lower than ddr5 at least on the average kits but so is for example DDR3 DDR3 is always quicker when it comes to latency than ddr4 because we would look at like 40 to 50 nanoseconds so you should not pay too much attention to this but here in the latency you can also see that the 4800 C40 kit which is one of the first ddr5 kits it's just extremely slow and that's what you will also see in different benchmarks and whether or how high the memory impact on the performance of your system will be is depending on the test for example in Time Spa extreme CPU tests we can see that the slow 4800 ddr5 kit is indeed also quite slow but on the other hand if you're looking at the 5600 or 6000 or 7200 Mega transfers kit doesn't really make a huge difference using graphic intense titles such as cyberpunk 1440p you will usually be so much into the GPU limit that memory won't really help that much and that's also what you can see here with the exception of the 4800 kit which is just very slow but you cannot really just go by the resolution alone so we're now looking at Remnant From the Ashes again in 1440p and I usually like to use this game because it's pretty memory dependent and you can also see it right here because just for example comparing the 3200 ddr4 kit with the 5600 dr5 kit the ddr5 kit will increase the minimum FPS so the one percent lows by 14 which is definitely significant and on the other hand the quicker 7200 c36 Kit with 48 gigabyte capacity will only improve it very slightly and at this point I want to remind you that the 3200 ddr4 kit or the 5600 ddr5 kit are the kits that are the max allowed according to Intel because if you would run a 3600 ddr4 or a 6000 ddr5 it would actually exceed into specs and that's where we will get back to the topic XMP later in Assassin's Creed 1080p this time times or a little bit lower resolution the memory impact is even higher and you can see that both the slow 3200 tdr4 and the 4800 ER 5 are significantly lower than quick ddr5 kits if you are into fast FPS games like valorent the impact is even larger especially because you are looking for higher FPS numbers and the Macs allowed intellects 3200 ddr4 and 5600 tdr5 will lower your minimum FPS by about 50 FPS compared to the very quick g-skill 7200 Kit with XMP XMP and especially a drama around XMP is kind of an old story and it seems to come back like every two or three years and I guess we are again at the same point and we are happily talking about this again especially now that AMD also has their Expo technology which is basically the same thing just under a different name and we will also look at AMD but we will first look at intel if we go on Intel's website and check what is actually XMP it helps us us that Intel XMP lets you overclock a compatible ddr4 ddr5 memory modules to enhance the gaming features built into the gaming PC with Intel core processors so XMP allows to overclock memory modules but if you're not familiar with the topic you might also look up what is actually overclocking if we scroll across this overclocking Page by Intel they're advertising how good this actually is and for example if we scroll down we will also find the XMP topic again Intel XMP helps you overclock Ram unlocking performance that exceeds standard specification so just looking at this advertisement actually sounds all pretty nice so you just do something enable something and it will give you more performance on this page you cannot really find any kind of hints or disclaimers talking about a warranty at all only if you scroll all the way down you will find product warranties may not apply if the processor is operated Beyond its specification Okay so now what I mean it tells you that you should do it because you get so much more performance and and then down there it says that you may lose warranty I think we have to go back to the XMP website because I saw some FAQs thus use of Intel XMP avoids the CPU warranty altering the frequency end or voltage outside the inter specification May avoid the processor warranty so it may void the warranty may it doesn't even state that it will which is already quite interesting I think the reason for that is quite simple that for example this is a 5200 Mega transverse XMP kit and this is within the spec of the CPU so this will be fine for a warranty whereas this is also an XMP kit it's also Intel certified XMP but it's 7200 so it actually voids the warranty or it may void the warranty it doesn't even state it in there I don't know is it is it it's because it's sunny outside or it's raining outside this is like like for a normal consumer this is very confusing for us I would say experts should be fine because for us it's quite clear as long as it's running outsets back it's avoiding the warranty probably so probably not that clear actually yeah that's like I don't know it's just not clear enough in which state what is going to happen and I think that's quite unfortunate also if you go to a 3900 KS product page you will actually not find XMP anywhere so if you just go to the like 3900 KS you do control F and check for XMP you will not find anything but what about AMD I mean is it probably the same there right so we're now looking at the 7950 X 3D product page you will find all kind of useful information such as CPU clock speeds and also memory configurations but what else can we find here so okay they're key features supported Technologies AMD Expo technology yeah I mean that's nice that's what we want to have right is there anything other useful like okay footnotes what does it actually say here gaming test of 5th December 22 by AMD performance lab using the following Hardware AMD ryzen 7950x 3D and gsteel ddr5 6000 C30 with AMD Expo okay that's nice and if I'm maybe new to this entire thing and I don't know nothing about CPUs I might just want to research a little bit more about Expo AMD extended profiles for overclocking new for AMD ryzen 7000 series processors get easy ddr5 memory overclocking with ryzen optimized profiles for best performance and experience get in the game faster with AMD Expo sounds again like an amazing feature you should definitely use but what about warranty I think we just have to go back to the same page and just check with Ctrl F if there is anything about warranty okay so didn't find anything that seems to be great but I mean okay there's a footnote on easy overclocking game on let's check this on the bottom overclocking and or undervolting AMD processors and memory including without limitation altering clock frequencies multipliers or memory timings voltage to operate outside of amd's published specification will avoid any applicable AMD warranty even when enabled via AMD Hardware or software so on all of the ryzen 7000 Pages AMD is highlighting two features first of all ryzen technology which is fine I mean it's a nice performing ryzen CPU and also AMD Expo same thing here as with Intel you have Expo kits that are running within specification and Expo kits that run outside of the specification so technically avoiding the warranty and to the normal consumer like the average guy like not really transparent and what I find really interesting is that if you check the footnote and like the benchmarks that AMD is presenting on their own product page they are using memory that is technically avoiding their own like their own warranty so they they show benchmarks with the configuration which is not covered by the warranty of AMD themselves great so that's something yeah doesn't really make much sense there is one more thing I find kind of hilarious I mean this is a 7000 X 3D which I just recently bought did you ever actually read the manual that's included so like all the tiny stuff that's written here I actually spent some time going through all the warranty stuff and like disclaimers this is going to be hilarious originally I wanted to go through this because I wanted to check if there is anything mentioned about Expo and then I found some warranty limitations and they State overclocking the product even when enabled by AMD is a warranty limitation and that's where the thing just gets confusing for the normal average user because they think about overclocking the CPU as like overclocking the CPU clock like the CPU main clock not the memory clock even though this is connected to the memory controller and that's what I think is most confusing or the like the biggest point of danger but then I found something which is actually that's that's the hilarious part use only with a thermal solution sold with or recommended for this AMD processor see amd's website for a list of third-party approved cooling solutions for the specific AMD processor you are using or in accordance with the applicable thermal design documentation cm dot com slash support for details use of any other thermal solution will avoid the limited warranty now if you want to waste your time and go to amd.com support and want to look for this cooler recommendation page or the technical documents I have bad news for you because you will not be able to find it because it's simply not there at least not on amd.com support the only thing that you can find on the product page is actually liquid cooler recommended for Optimal Performance which to me is quite a bit different to saying use of any kind of other cooler will void your warranty so after spending a bit more time going through the entire Indie website I found this ryzen processor cooling solutions list and if we scroll through this looking for the cooler recommendation for our 7800x 3D which is as you know a 120 watt CPU it's quite interesting first of all we find a list for ryzen 7000 CPUs with 105 watt TDP or lower so for example a ryzen 7600 and here you can find a list with nine officially compatible or recommended CPU coolers then there is also a list for aim for CPUs but that's not really helpful for our 7800x 3D and then all on the bottom we can find is 170 watt CPUs so for example a 7950x 3D and officially you are only allowed to use this CPU with one of these eight cooling solutions listed on here so for example you have a 7800x 3D or 7950x or 7950x3d and you thought hey I might want to pair this with my noctuar and hd15 because I mean this is a very good cooler it's like build quality is perfect it's pretty quiet still very strong performance these days I have bad news for you because officially you lost the AMD warranty by mounting this cooler on the first day and I mean that's just because it's not listed in the cooler compatibility or like recommended cooler list and it's not a liquid cooler as stated on the product page and obviously I mean that's not going to be the case but that's just closing the circle back to XMP and Expo and like such weird disclaimers and warranty disclaimers the manufacturers do that are just completely stupid and I mean that's not going to happen obviously if you run this cooler on your CPU it's I mean technically it is avoiding your warranty but I'm pretty sure that AMD is not going to complain if you run it or I hope so and now it was a lot of theory as well because I mean practically none of this really matters like me personally I are made three CPUs over like 15 years which is almost nothing because I only RMA CPUs where I am personally sure that it was not my responsibility that the CPU actually died for example I remember a case of an 8700k so that was several years ago I was testing the CPU it was not deleted like no extreme overclocking or anything and from one day to the other it just refused to enter windows and I always got like an instant blue screen which is a typical thing how CPUs die and then I called Intel the RMA support and they asked me what kind of memory speed I was running and obviously I knew that technically running this High XMP speed would void your like warranty so I lied which like I'm totally open about and then I said like I don't know and they said okay no problem we will send you the shipping label take the CPU back and I had a new CPU like the week later so all of this was pretty smooth I had the same experience like exactly the same with AMD with a 2700x was the same thing they also asked me about the memory speed I said I don't know it was no problem they took the CPU back and sent me a new one and just from a moral standpoint obviously that's not the good way to do it because at least in like the German law I think this could be fraught being totally open about this but then again just because you enabled XMP or XPO doesn't mean that this was the cause that the CPU died so it might not even be a correlation the CPU might have died anyway so it's maybe not even my fault and as long as I'm confident that I didn't do any like heart modifications on it like extreme torture I feel fine sending this through the CPU manufacturer because they basically forced me to lie to them I mean look at AMD they're advertising the 6000 speed which is like voiding their own warranty and then they expect me to run it and if it dies they expect me not to ship it back doesn't really make much sense and obviously it's the same thing with the cooler if they would ask me on the phone what kind of cooler were you running and I say oh I was running this nhd15 or like a be quiet cooler or like an EK custom water cooling solution with that not quite sure because they actually recommend liquid cooler but technically with like a like an air cooler like big air cooler on any of these like 7800 X 3D 7950x 3D they could technically refuse your warranty because in here they say it's not covered and I'm not sure about that I'm not sure if that's the right approach to do it like these weird warranty claims have to change I think that both Intel and AMD they should sit together with the mainboard vendors and think about a way to make this better for the future because on one hand all of these parties like the main board vendors Intel and AMD they all love to talk about advertise XMP Expo High memory speeds they love to talk about it but when things go wrong it's a consumer's fault and I'm pretty sure that's not a good way because I mean that's why you AMD Intel you force us to lie to you because I mean AMD is running the 6000 and then I'm doing the same and it dies and then it's my fault not so sure about that and I mean it's the same with the coolers yeah so that's how I ended up from shooting uh 48 gigabytes memory kit video Yeah to to this like reading hours of warranty disclaimers and like completely useless stuff bundled with CPUs that probably nobody ever read I mean did you ever see AMD Like official demo PCS at some kind of exhibitions right they are also not running their own recommended cooler Solutions so what is this even about and yeah it's it's just not really customer friendly um to do this kind of behavior that's why I hope both Intel and AMD and also the main board vendors will improve this for the future because otherwise one solution would be that us reviewers we would just stick to the recommended speed for example for AMD that would be 5200 and for Intel it's 5600 and as Steve already showed in his video with AMD I mean that's hurting performance quite a lot and neither AMD neither Intel nor the main board manufacturers will want that so they want us to show the speed but they don't want to cover any risk that comes with it that's something I don't really think is Justified when it comes to this case I mean that's the reason why I originally started with this video quite nice performance was very easy to use and kind of closes the gap between 32 and 64 gigabyte and if you like are tighter on a budget and you're thinking about getting 64. this might be enough because you get a little bit more capacity than 32 but you can get a higher speed than maybe getting a 64 gigabyte kit so that could be interesting if you want to look into this I hope this was still an enjoyable video even though it's like more like a theoretical video yeah it was also it was not really nice like reading through all this like uh warranty disclaimers and stuff so yeah probably not going to happen anytime soon that I'm going to repeat this video thanks for tuning in see you next time bye [Music]

Channel: der8auer EN

Views: 115,645

Keywords:

Id: kg8Gj_tcGDY

Length: 23min 55sec (1435 seconds)

Published: Sun May 14 2023

Reddit Comments

[u/EnolaGayFallout]

Imagine buying a car with normal, sports and race mode.

In the manual, pressing sports and race mode void the warranty.

Then u drive up to the dealer/workshop, did u turn on sports race mode? Nope.

Proceed to fix the car.

[u/grev]

reviewers should cover all future product releases only using coolers and ram configurations that are enumerated in the warranty.

[u/sadnessjoy]

I think derbauer kinda missed the main reason why warranty is like this, it's not about the added risk or anything. And it's not about safety concerns. It's a predatory business behavior in order to lower their operating costs at every possible opportunity. If you can void customer's warranty, that'll save you money, so these companies are finding every legal way to void warranty. If these companies had it their way, none of their products would come with any warranty whatsoever.

[u/AtomicTardigrade]

If you brag with XMP/EXPO numbers than that is the default user also expects and cannot ppssibly void the warranty no matter what. If not, then they should get slapped by a massive lawsuit for deceptive practices and lying about performance figures.

[u/PapaBePreachin]

Timestamps:

0:04: Introduction

0:11: Introduction to G.Skill 7200 Mega transfers c36 kit (48GB).

0:32: Benefits of 48GB kit vs. slower 64GB kit for budget-conscious users.

1:00: Mention of recent controversies involving AMD CPUs and Asus motherboards.

1:10: Focus on Expo XMP and warranty disclaimers.

1:19: Sponsored message from Hetzner about new server.

1:55: Summary of CPU dying issue with BIOS updates.

3:04: Discovery of new BIOS version exceeding recommended voltage.

3:27: Noting warranty disclaimer potentially worsening situation.

4:24: Synthetic benchmarks: Expo and XMP.

6:17: Game Benchmarks

9:05: XMP, Expo, and warranty limitations from Intel's perspective.

11:22: AMD's Expo and warranty inconsistencies.

14:02: Need for improved warranty policies and customer understanding.

16:00: Challenges with warranties, XMP, and cooler recommendations.

18:02: Dissatisfaction with manufacturers' warranty policies.

20:56: Hope for collaboration between Intel, AMD, and vendors.

22:07: Complexity and confusion caused by warranty disclaimers.

22:52: Benefits of G.Skill 7200 c36 kit.

23:11: Conclusion and advantages of 48GB kit as cost-effective option.

[u/Nicholas-Steel]

Potentially gonna get harder to lie about it over time, with UEFI now being a complete operating system they can likely log all your BIOS settings in to a memory chip somewhere far away from high risk areas of the board so when you RMA, they can easily determine if EXPO/XMP was enabled.

The same could be done with CPU's as part of their security components (AMD PSP, Intel IME etc.), log common variables that are prone to causing issues to some relatively safe physical location in the chip.

That being said, Asus has just now released a statement that says they will cover users using EXPO, XMP etc.

[u/L3tum]

This is getting the publicity it deserves, but I'm curious why AMD and Intel are dragged into this. Both of them have explicitly or implicitly said that XMP/EXPO does not void their warranty, and I don't think there have been many cases. My own RMA process certainly didn't care that I had it enabled, nor that I used CO and PBO.

ASUS' statements are a disgrace to the industry, but from the GN video AMD seems to have reiterated that they don't void their warranty, only ASUS released a statement, and they've luckily already backtracked on it (albeit the damage is done and they should get the negative publicity that they deserve).

IMO they're a bit like this warranty void stickers which are even illegal nowadays in some countries.

(P.S. I did not watch this particular video. I've already watched 1.5 hours worth of GN videos on this topic and kinds need to do something different with my life now)

[u/HighTensileAluminium]

So on AM5, what memory speed and VDD/VDDQ voltage are considered 'overclocking'? It's 5200MHz for frequency, right? What about timings? Since tighter timings are a more difficult configuration for the RAM to run, it's effectively overclocking, right? Is there an exact list of primary, secondary and tertiary timings anywhere that AMD will consider the threshold for 'overclocking'?

I personally despise all this ambiguity.

[u/jaaval]

I don’t really see an option where high xmp settings would not void warranty. There are some crazy kits and the tech is unable to distinguish between stupid settings you put in manually and stupid settings the motherboard reads from a rom in the memory module. They simply cannot have a blanket approve for any settings some Chinese manufacturer decides to put there.

And to be clear, xmp does not automatically void warranty, at least Intel’s terms and conditions does not have a clause for that. What they say is “operating outside intel defined specifications” voids warranty. So going above the supported memory speed voids warranty. There are plenty of kits within the supported limits, for example a DDR4 3200 kit would be within limits with the latest CPUs.

But what they should absolutely do is advertise only with settings they support, unless they explicitly make clear that they are advertising overclocking features that are not covered by warranty.