My name is Monk Rowe and we're filming today
for the Hamilton College Jazz Archive. It's a real pleasure to have Alvin Queen with
us today. AQ: It's a pleasure to be here, Monk. MR: Welcome to Central New York. You're a man who crosses the international
date line a lot, from what you've said. Do you like traveling that much? AQ: Well no not really. My whole thing was I mostly went back and
forth like to Europe like that because there was more happening on that side there during
the time when I went over there in the early '70s because things were changing here in
America musically. They were beginning to change electronically
and go into a different direction, which I was not really ready to do that. MR: What would it have required of you to
do that? AQ: Well I first went to - I never had any
dreams really, as far as going to Europe. And I basically always wanted to be involved
with different groups and to build my own group. And I spent many, many years as you know,
with Horace Silver and George Benson and Wild Bill Davis and Tiny Grimes, and I mean I can
go back, oh, Pharoah Sanders - I've done some stuff with George Coleman's recordings, and
many different people. And I got a call one day from Charles Tollver
during my stint with George Benson in 1971, to go to Europe. During that time it was avant garde stage
mostly, and avant garde was very, very big in Europe at that time but it was not big
in America as it was in Europe. And I began to travel into Europe. I'd go for three weeks and it would turn into
two months. And I'd go back for one month and it'd turn
into three months. Then after a while people would say well don't
call him in New York 'cause you won't get him. So I worked more there then I worked in America. And that's the reason why I travel so much. But I made my - my biggest communication,
I believe, was in Europe with the musicians. That's how I managed to do that. MR: Your biggest communication, are you speaking,
not metaphorically? AQ: Not on the modern scene. On the older scene, the musicians. See I didn't know Sweets and I didn't know
the older musicians before I went to Europe. I had to change my style of playing. Because I went as the John Coltrane type of
a drummer, which I always recognize Elvin Jones very highly for. The era of the instrument was changing. That's what it was. In my biggest mind it was Art Blakey, Elvin
and Max. MR: I have to say, watching you last night,
I thought of seeing Elvin Jones. The one time I saw Elvin Jones, and I saw
you last night, and I'm not making this up, it's interesting you mention that, because
not just from the way you play, but just physically, the way -
AQ: The build-up and the attacks - yeah. MR: Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah, I'll get back to that because you did
some stuff last night I want to talk about. But I mean, mentioning, you just rattled off
a great bunch of names, and going from Pharoah Sanders to Wild Bill Davis, I mean you have
to have a pretty flexible nature with your playing, wouldn't you say? AQ: Well you know what the problem is today? It's that we have too many leaders. It's like there's too many chiefs and there's
no Indians. And like what happens is that you never learn
how to - you've got to learn how to escort musicians in all ways. You listen to a musician and you say what
does he want? You understand? You listen to a musician, you try, and if
you try you'll see that you get that. That's why I get calls from men 85 years old
to do a job or something. Or I don't get calls from young musicians
because a lot of times what I have to say, they're not ready to hear that. See that's the problem. You have another generation where if you've
got so much youth playing with youth, that it's all wrapped around one thing. And when it's time for you to perform with
that youth, he's here and you're here. It's like two stages, two stages. You're trying to balance something because
you come from a certain thing. See what we have today, we have performers. Years ago we had performers and entertainers. Count Basie and Harry Sweets Edison and these
musicians, they are entertainers because they perform for the people but they entertain
and the people are part of the music. They generate something with the audience. And now you can go to concerts and you have
to just sit, and can you be a part of the music, that's the whole trick today. MR: Well the whole thing about the dance halls
disappearing, you know, this has effected the music I think to a great degree. AQ: Largely. It's gotten to be a point where you've got
to remember Buddy Rich, Papa Jo Jones, Big Sid Catlett, Cozy Cole - they were all tap
dancers. See, the drum was all about tap dancing, all
right? And when you perform with the drum, you watch
the people's feet, you watch. Thelonious Monk always set the tempo off,
watch his foot, as dance music. This is what Johnny Griffin tells me. Everything he did, it was danceable, you see? So that's what it's all about. I have to make a communication with that audience
somehow. If I don't have a communication with the audience,
something's not right. And that's why you see Sweets and Lockjaw
and you see all of them, and you know, before you leave you're rocking, you know the people
are rocking in their seat. MR: Well you echo, from what I've read from
Louis Armstrong is that he called himself an entertainer. AQ: Yeah. MR: Not just a jazz musician. AQ: Yeah. That's what it's all about. Whatever you do, do it in a rhythm. That's what you have to do and it sells. I don't sell "I'm a drummer." But I'm a human metronome. And what I'm all about is, I study harder
and harder to swing. They can sell a record without a drum solo,
but they can't sell a record without swing. So that's the difference when it comes down
to music. And I have to play for the artist. The artist doesn't have to play for me. I have to escort, it's like a singer or whatever
it is, and I have to escort it to my best ability of how am I going to get in there,
and how am I going to get out? You learn formats. I stayed with Horace Silver for five years. Horace Silver is a perfect Jazz Messenger
type of group for young musicians to learn formats. And that's what I did with Horace Silver. So you know all about the head of the tune,
you know about the bridge of the tune, you know the changes you're going to play off,
and then after you finish all that you've got to go out the same way. It's like with a computer. You go in, you've got to come out. It has to work the same way. And those are the formats of the thing which
today, a lot of the younger musicians - what you have today you have schooled musicians,
and you have musicians who are great writers. But the inner spirit thing is the communication
with the audience, that part is gone. That's like the bottom of the band like Basie
had. Basie had the band which was rocking. Stan Kenton - rocking. Maynard Ferguson - rocking. Those bands were, there was some drive underneath. And that's what - the people were able to
follow along with that particular drive. MR: Well where does a young musician get that
then? AQ: Well the young musician, one thing you
have to understand is that the market has been destroyed by the production world. And the reason why I say that is because the
production world, they're the ones that say who belongs in this seat. You have lost generations. You have a generation one, Mr. Charles Davis,
a lost generation; two - I'm out of the generation. You see what I'm talking about? It didn't move in cycles. It was just changed. And now we're going through a problem now
and it's like the young organ player he said to me last night he said, "Man, this is what
I need, I need more gigs like this and work with guys like you," like that. Because you can't put a record on and learn
it all from the record. This is the way the Russians did it, you see,
when they learned jazz. And when you go to Russia, and you see these
Russian musicians play the drums you understand, where you would do something, he's doing it
here to try to get the sound from the record, what he heard. MR: Oh, that's fascinating. AQ: You see? So it's totally different. But this is what happens. There's a serious problem there now. There's a serious problem within the direction
of the music. The musical industry right now, the record
sales have fallen fifty percent below than what they normally were. Because number one, if you record a record,
I don't care how much you write, if there's not much experience in writing, it's going
to be the same thing. So you've done five albums of the same thing. The sales don't stay here, they go there you
see. So there's a big problem I mean, I'm very
thankful, I thank God because I've done it and I had a chance to be with those, really,
names you know. I learned from people such as Wes Montgomery,
Elvin Jones, I was at Birdland during the John Coltrane "Live at Birdland" recording,
Art Blakey, I saw the group with Wayne Shorter and Curtis Fuller in there, I saw the highest
peak of Art Blakey. I used to go down to the old Half Note as
a kid and hear Al Cohn and Zoot Simms. I did my first album, I was twelve years old,
under the direction of Joe Newman, Zoot Sims, Art Davis and Hank Jones, and once I had Harold
Mabern. The difference then, that these great musicians
were fathers, that's what they were to a kid. They were a father. And they would say, "I'm going to teach you
something - I don't want to hurt you, don't feel that I'm hurting you, I want to teach
you." And when I got on that bandstand to play man,
you understand what I'm talking about, they turned around and would yell, "hey - hey"
and I would say how long is this going to go on, when is this going to stop. And then after a while - now Sweets now, he
doesn't turn around anymore. He knows what to give me. You see? It's just to keep, they want a meter, they
want a beat which stays sturdy, if you understand what I'm talking about. And I used to talk with Papa Jo Jones a lot. And it's like a child which says to you, "Daddy
I can count to one, two, three, four - what next should I learn to do." He says, "Being a drummer, the rest of your
life remember, it's one, two, three, four." So when you play one, two, three, four, that's
- to get it in your brain. And I don't care what else you do, you play
that in your brain. Nowadays what you hear, you can hear a lot
of younger musicians - great chops, all chops - but the one, two, three, four has fallen
out. That's where the problem is. It's the rests. Remember, the bass drum used to be the bass
fiddle, right? But now, the bass fiddle used to follow the
bass drum. But since the bass fiddle plays the one, two,
three, four, the bass drum falls out, he plays accents. So if the bass player rushes, the drummer
doesn't control. He's not in control. And everything went up a meter. And if you listen to Miles Davis "Four and
More" album, right, and you listen to the ones he did with John Coltrane, it's the same
music but the tempos are double. That shows you where it started off with the
younger generation. They took it from the double tempo and went
on with it. MR: Wow. Well I recall a couple of your solos last
night, I was watching you, and your hi-hat was always going during your solos. And I wrote this little thing down - Fla da
da, Fla da da, Bap, Brap. I mean what does that mean to you? AQ: That means, I learned a lot of that from
Art Blakey and Elvin Jones. When you read a book, a book goes in paragraphs,
you understand what I'm talking about? Every paragraph is another musician, you understand? And Bra da da, Bra da da, Bap, that "Bap"
is a period. That means Bap - roll - another musician. You understand? So it works just like you read in a book. You read, when you're in school, you go around
the table, everybody reads. You improve your reading, he reads two paragraphs,
I read two paragraphs, right? When I read the two paragraphs what happens
with the two paragraphs, then I'm saying, "Next instrument." So when I say, "Whap," and I play a big roll
in there, that means I roll and bam, that's the beginning of the next paragraph for the
other musician. That's what the cymbals are when you're changing
the dynamics and meters, you're going in a different direction. You're bringing him in to your best ability. MR: Well that's exactly what you did in there. And you know I mean I could tell from watching
the audience that they were with you on that. And when you did that particular lick it's
like everybody goes -. They all took a breath. AQ: Where is he going next? Yeah. MR: And it was real enjoyable. AQ: That's that old school. We call that the mop-mop. It's the lick Max Roach plays when he plays
Biddlie di do bop, Biddlie di do bop, Biddlie di do bop, bop, bop-bop. It's mop-mop. It's a big Sid Catlett lick you know. And it's Max. I had a chance to really learn a lot of Max
and I know him very personal, and Elvin and I was kid around then man and they raised
me, they mostly raised me. And today that's what hurts me so bad is that
as hard as I study and all I have studied, now where is the place to put it? Because the musical scene has changed. There's an era which has been pulled out you
know. MR: Do you think the young - they call them
the "young lions" - do you think they suffer from the hype they get? The media hype? AQ: Well they suffer from the hype they get
because they really can't live up to these stages. I mean a man, people like Harry "Sweets" Edison
and Lockjaw, this is easily men of caliber who, they got something to talk about. They can give you a book. But a person who's worked with one or two
bands can't give you that book. You understand? It's like you know you could listen to Wynton,
you can listen to many people, I mean it's not, I don't need somebody to sit down and
read the history of jazz and then get on television and tell me, I mean I could read the same
book. I want somebody who lived the history. How was this guy to deal with? How is he - you know - that means something
to me. I mean Lockjaw Davis told me, he said "Man
one day I'll die, but always remember the words what I have told you." And those words, what I heard from Ben Webster,
I heard from Kenny Drew, I heard from Teddy Wilson, that I always get reflections and
echoes in my ears of that. MR: That's amazing. You just turned 47. This must have come at a marvelous time for
you in your development as a musician to be associating with these giants. AQ: Well what happened to me, Monk, is that
I learned in elementary school, you know the parade drum, at Mt. Vernon, NY. My brother used to play there. And I used to get his sticks out and I used
to go bang on the concrete on the sidewalk, right? And then in elementary school I began to get
recognition in the parade band, and I played bass drum in the parade band and I was proud
you know. And at that time my mother was raising five
kids and she couldn't support me to go to school for drums, you know, private drum lessons. I ran into a guy - Tony - not Tony Marfort
is from Binghamton, NY - but Andy Larlino. But he was in the military with Tony Marfort
from Binghamton, NY. And I took one or two lessons but I couldn't'
stay there because my mother couldn't afford it. So Andy told my mother, "Look Ms. Queen, he's
a very talented boy and I'm going to teach him if I have to teach him free, because he's
got it. There's something he's got and it's special
and I like him." I was a shoeshine kid. I had a shoeshine box. I went up to the drum studio because I couldn't
afford it, but I liked what I heard and I said, "Sir, I'll give you a free shine." Because I wanted to stay around to see what
the rest of these boys were learning. And then I stayed with Andy for a while, and
then I noticed that during those days a lot of black people were wearing the process hairdos
at that time. And my father had one. And my father used to go down to the 125th
Street area, down to Sugar Ray Robinson's barber shop. And Sugar Ray Robinson's barber shop is where
Max Roach and Miles Davis and Moms Mabley and all of them were getting their hair done. I never knew these people at the time, but
I knew my father had to go get his hair done. So I went with my father a couple of times,
I was eight years old, and my father said, "Alvin there is the Apollo Theatre, and I've
got to catch this show. Your mother's going to be mad if I get you
home late like that." And then my father took me by there, and I
saw all these musicians. I said wow. I saw Cannonball Adderley there with Nancy
Wilson, "Save Your Love for Me," I saw that album. I saw Louis Hayes, he was 16 years old playing
drums with Cannonball. Louis was about 16 then, right? And then I saw the original John Coltrane
group with Steve Davis, Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner, and I saw Arthur Prysock and Red Prysock
when they did this thing "Close Your Eyes" and they had this Billy Eckstine type of voice,
you know that deep-sounding voice? I saw Billy Eckstine there and then I saw
Pigmeat Markhan, I saw Redd Foxx, I saw Michael Jackson when he was five years old, I saw
Otis Redding. That's who I used to see. So every week when my father went to get his
hair done I made sure we were going to see a show. Because at that time at the Apollo Theater
you paid a dollar-fifty, you saw a movie four times and you would see a show four times. You could stay in, they didn't put you out,
you understand? So I saw the tap dancer shows and I saw Tito
Puente and Eddie Palmieri and at that time I was with Andy Larlino who was teaching me,
and a lot of records my father had, he had. And I said this is strange. So I was really one of the only kids who would
take a record to school, like for a talent show or something, and I had jazz records
at the age of like eleven, twelve years old. So I kept studying and kept learning there
with Andy and then they had WLIB then at the time - Billy Taylor was - no Billy Taylor
had, it was Billy Taylor and Mort Feeger, had the Milkman Matinee. And Symphony Sid had Jump With My Boy Symphony
Sid, that show, and I used to stay up late at night and I used to sneak the radio and
put it in the room, and I'd plug the radio in and then that's how I heard all the jazz
and who was working at Birdland. Now the guy who was teaching me drums taught
me how to go from Mt. Vernon by train, subway, down to 52nd Street where they had Frank Wolf's
Drum Shop and they had Manny's Music Store, and this is before all the music went to California. See all the live shows were done in New York,
they weren't done in California, and you see all the musicians there. Then, around the corner from Frank Wolf's
Drum Shop was the Metropole. That's where I was able to see Gene Krupa. They had a thing at twelve o'clock in the
day where the window was open, and I would look and see Gene Krupa and I would see Henry
Allen and Red Norvo. They were playing in there in the afternoon
shows. Then they had the Brass Rail, I used to see
Ben Webster a lot, and I used to walk up to them and go to Roseland, and still I had my
shoeshine box, I would go, "Hey, Sir, would you like a shoeshine?" And then this is how I would learn and listen,
and they would say, "Yeah, everybody's hanging out at Beefsteak Charlie's." "Where's Beefsteak Charlie's?" And I would go over there and give everybody
a free shine to be in there. And they'd say, "Well you know the kid can't
be in here." "Well he's giving me a shine, he's all right." And you would listen to Wes Montgomery - would
stand at the bar and have a drink, Philly Joe would come in, Bill Evans would come in,
everybody. It was a meeting spot. And then Cozy Cole had the Drum School down
on 52nd Street and Eighth, between Eighth and Ninth, Henry Latane was down there, and
Papa Jo Jones had a drum school upstairs on 52nd Street and Eighth, you know? And it was just great moments, man, and my
whole career started from there. I first went out with Ruth Brown on the road,
and Earl Swanson, not even, I was doing little weekend things because I was too young and
at that time it was a cabaret life. And I went out on the road with Earl Swanson
and the organ player was Don Pullen. He was playing Hammond organ. And then Tiny Grimes, that's when I worked
with Tiny Grimes at that time, and at that time in Harlem it was all organ places. Next door to the Apollo Theater was The Baby
Grand. That's where Jimmy Smith would play all the
time and they had the Top Club across the street. But there were clubs, and I used to sneak
in these clubs and then that's how I got to Birdland. I got to Birdland, the guy who was teaching
me drums, I went down Gretch Drum Night and I sat in. There were five sets of drums across the front
of the stage. And it was Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Max Roach,
Mel Lewis, and Charlie Persip. And I was more like the boy wonder at that
time. They put me up and I sat in and played, and
now I see all the musicians like Micky Roker, you know he says, "Hey, I remember when you
was a little boy and came into Birdland." And then Elvin mostly adopted me like a son. I don't know why, but he mostly adopted me
like a son, and Elvin sat me on the drums when I sat in and played with John Coltrane. And John turned around and John said, "Elvin,
the kid is kind of weak, man, come on Elvin." And Elvin said, "He's got to learn how to
play." And then I'm sitting there struggling and
you know. MR: Where was that? AQ: This was in 1962. Before the live recording with John Coltrane. MR: And you were twelve? AQ: I think I was twelve around that time. Around that time - 1963 - I think it's somewhere
around there. MR: Twelve or thirteen. AQ: I went and sat in with John Coltrane,
McCoy Tyner - every time I see McCoy he says, "Man I remember you as a little boy you came
into Birdland." So it was great because then they had Monday
night sessions, and it had to have been '62 or '63 because I remember Eric Dolphy. I saw Eric come into Birdland there you know. But it was incredible. And then Wild Bill Davis was one of my first
gigs in Atlantic City, the Gracie Belmont Club, he played the breakfast shows down there,
oh yeah. MR: Man that is fascinating. So you got, in addition to hearing the music,
you got to see how the musicians conducted themselves with each other. AQ: You never saw an argument. I never saw it. I saw a bunch of people who would break a
sandwich and share it with each other. If you had a problem he'll say, "Kid, come
to my room," so and so and so, "And be there now, bring your sticks." And he says now you do it like this and you
do it like that and do it like that. I said, "Well what happens after that, what
do I have to do? "Just keep doing it." You understand? That's what they did. They looked out for you. And I'll tell you another thing. You see how musicians are now? It doesn't matter if an instrument's in tune
or not. I've seen people get up on the stage in Birdland
and an instrument is out of tune. I've seen musicians walk off on them, one
at a time. And the guy would say "well what is wrong?" "Go back home and get ready." You learn how to keep the pitch and you learn
how to keep the tune and you learn how to - that's what that was all about. You didn't get past that, you know, you didn't
get past that. John Coltrane was the first one to do the
first long album played, thirteen minutes. Everybody thought he was crazy after he left
Miles. You know, "My Favorite Things," that was one
of the longest tracks in jazz history. MR: Yeah there's some great stories about
that, why'd he play so long? AQ: Miles told him to take the mouthpiece
out of his mouth. Miles was a character man, you know. But I spent five years with the Horace Silver
Quintet, that was a great experience. Because so many went through that band when
I was there. The Benny Maupins, the Randy Breckers, the
Bob Bergs, Mike Lawrence, he passed away early, then - who else was in there - Alfonso Johnson,
Stanley Clarke, Anthony Jackson - I'm trying to think of all the people who were in Horace's
band when I was in there. But there was a lot. MR: The other day I was looking through one
of the jazz books and they had categories of jazz and the term "hard bop" as opposed
to just "bop" - or when Horace got into, I guess it's called "funk" somewhat. Can you define those terms to a non-musician? I mean what's "hard bop" from your standpoint? AQ: Well "hard bop" is considered somewhere
in there with the bebop era. I look at it more of developmental styles. And Horace had more of - he had this left
hand thing going on. And Chick Corea was a big admirer of Horace. And Horace was more like a Bobby Timmons but
he had this thing in it to keep it funky, to make it funky. But I mean there's different terms. You've got hard bop and bebop and Dixieland
and modern and progressive and avant garde, and I look it as more of a freedom of speech
and what develops. I don't think anything can develop nowadays
because if you look at it they've taken hard bop and went back and now they call it hip
hop. These records are being reissued now as hip
hop records. Do you know this record by Duke Pearson - it's
a hip hop album. I said wait a minute. Duke Pearson is a friend of mine, he's been
dead fifteen years, what do you mean? MR: Well there was a rap group that took "Cantaloupe
Island" the tune, and used the Blue Note thing. AQ: "So What" - Miles Davis, this kid in London
did this thing "So What" with a back beat, it's making money. I mean, then they took, let me see, one of
the Latin bands, they took something of Monk's and they did a Latin version of it. So it's really hard to say. It's like Latin music, and then they say "salsa"
music. We're back in the commercial market, we're
back in it again. I don't care how you turn it around, anything
that makes money is commercial form. Jazz has never made any really big money. Jazz lives for a period of time. It's like Billie Holiday records have sold
more since she's died then since she was alive, and it's history. When you want to go hear a trumpet player,
and you go buy Sweets and you buy Clark Terry, then you hear - I want to learn the trumpet,
you see? So the jazz lives on but I mean hip hop and
bebop, and you know as Roy Haynes would say, Roy would say, "My picture's not in there,
my name's not there." MR: So you have been a resident of Switzerland
for how long now? AQ: Eighteen years. MR: How much actual playing can you do right
near your home? AQ: Near my home? I am one of the most busiest drummers in Europe. I ended up doing Kenny Clarke's work. When Kenny died, I moved in. And Jimmy Woode got me in there. Jimmy Woode was the original bass player with
Duke Ellington, and then he was the original bass player with the Francy Boland-Clarke
Big Band. And Jimmy connected me with, he was very close
with Sweets, very close to - that's how I met John Collins. I produced John Collins' record. The only record John Collins ever had, I produced
that record. And that's how I really got into it, through
Jimmy Woode. And now I work with all of the older musicians
who come through there. So I'm busy all the time. I just did Scott Hamilton and Warren Vache
and before that I did the Kansas City tour, now I'm on my way to Japan with Dee Dee Bridgewater,
so it's just that I'm constantly in and out - three weeks and two weeks and three weeks. I work as much as I want to work. Now I'm slowing down a little bit. MR: You are at the point where you can turn
down work that for one reason or another doesn't appeal to you? AQ: Yeah. America, I love to work here, if the people
are looking for what's correct. My music is not about a challenge. My music is about reality. That's it. So if they look for a drummer with twenty
drums and red lights flashing in there, hey, you know, you're not going to get the drum
from me. You're not going to get this big show type
of thing, that's not going to happen. The media and the market, I don't know what
it has done. But games I don't play. I play some music and that's it. But it's not a challenge, and the young guy,
a lot of the young musicians look at the music as a freeway or highway or something. Who plays the fastest? But remember one thing. When you do an audition with Horace Silver,
it's who can stay here. And every time you get a young musician right
there, it falls apart. He hasn't learned to stay there. That's the trick. The trick is the discipline of how long and
how constant you can keep that, to that degree. That's the trick. That's Horace. Horace's got a way, he'll say, "Uh huh, now
I'm going to spot check this guy, I know what to do, count one - two - one two three." And if that tempo falls apart he'll say, "You're
not the one for the job." That means the young ones can play fast or
too slow. Never like -.
And that's the problem. That was one of the problems, man, was that
they didn't have enough experience with the Basies and the Duke Ellingtons and they don't
have those real bands anymore that teach you how to sound as one horn, not as many. Four horns as one. MR: It's not something that's around enough
that you can absorb it. AQ: That's what's so sad. But the market doesn't keep it around. That's what it is. MR: What about the European market? AQ: The European market kept it around. You know why the European market kept it around? Because the European radio stations were government
supported, and they always had big bands. Right? MR: They had like radio station bands? AQ: Yeah. I just did one with Benny Golson in Cologne
Germany. Cologne Germany has a radio band, Hamburg
Germany has a radio band, Geneva used to have it. I think Vienna has it, but they're losing
them all now. Now these bands are going under. But now there's one club in Provence France
which has dancing, people dance to jazz. And that would shock me. It's very interesting. They're dancing, swinging around, and they're
dancing there. It starts at twelve o'clock midnight to five
o'clock in the morning. Amazing. But the Europeans are very fond of the music. And they're more interested in keeping traditional
playing. You hear like acoustical piano. They're not - electrical is coming in, but
it's not in a rush, they don't want it one hundred percent like that. So it's just that - now there's some fine
young European musicians man who can play. There's some cats who can play. And maybe to this society they might be old
fashioned, but in that society they can play. They learned right. They don't care how much time it takes them. They're not going to change for the sake of
money. That's what I'm saying. MR: Some of the earlier fellows who went to
Europe and stayed stated the racial atmosphere was much better over there. Is that not an issue these days? AQ: No I mean it's still the same man. MR: It's still the same. AQ: I mean it's no different. You can go to Germany underneath the cover
it's the same thing, it's there, it's there. You could be in Switzerland, it's there. You could be in Paris, it's there. I mean Paris is like I mean they could see
me and they could see an African as two different things because I'm coming from an American
environment. But if I keep my mouth shut and put the clothes
on, it would be the same type of thing I've seen that. I've been through that where I have led an
African friend of mine into a restaurant and it's easier for him to go into the restaurant
if he went by himself. It's there. It's different, it's more appreciative for
who you are, and you earn much more money and you're looked up to because it's more
like in Europe you've been brainwashed to believe that everything that comes from America
is great. See that happened from the end of the war. So that means it's like if you get a Gospel
singer, they wouldn't get a white one, they're going to get me as a black one. They believe in getting the original. It's like the Japanese. You know, we don't want an artificial Sonny
Rollins, we've got enough money to have the original Sonny Rollins and that's how that
works in Europe. I mean the Europeans are a little bit more,
culture-wise they're a little bit more relaxed, but always remember, twenty years, whatever
goes on here, in ten or fifteen years is there. It's there now, the drug scene and the crack,
the whole thing is there. MR: I was going to say, better to keep some
of the stuff here instead of- AQ: It's there. Except you've got more appreciation and I
mean I survive. The right money is, for me, in Europe. Here I can't survive, I can't. Not my lifestyle. I live on a certain level, and I have to go
that certain level. I mean in Europe I can go from two thousand
to five thousand a week. But in America you might not be able to get
past nine hundred dollars a week. You understand what I'm talking about? So you know, after I got well established
there, and I do the Verve Records and I do all the most important things, I just said
to myself, well when they're ready they'll call for me. So when I did the Verve tour, they called
me from all the way over there to come and do that. I said, "What, there's nobody in New York
could do that?" "Well we know you're one of the very few cats
who we know can hold the band down." They were looking for someone who was solid
to hold this band down so that they can ride, they had something to ride on. And from that tour we had Charlie Haden opened
up, we had Joe Henderson opened up, and the Kansas City Big Band was the most popular
band of the evening. MR: Who was the rhythm section besides yourself
on that tour? AQ: We had Chris McBride, Chris McBride was
on bass. Cyrus Chestnut couldn't make it so we got
Henry Butler on piano. MR: Oh, he's great. AQ: Oh, yeah. Henry Butler was on piano. We had Mark Whitfield on guitar. And we had Jessie Davis on alto saxophone,
David "Fathead" Newman on saxophone, Craig Handy on saxophone, James Carter on tenor
saxophone, Don Barren on baritone saxophone and clarinet, and in the trumpet section Nicholas
Payton was on trumpet and we had James Olen on trumpet, Curtis Folke trombone, Steven
Bernstein, trumpet, and we had Kevin Mahogany did the vocals. So it was a good tour. And the band rocked the house. The band, we had, we had something in the
pocket, rock it. MR: I think the fellow did a good job with
how they presented the music in that film. AQ: Oh yeah. MR: If you couldn't have taken that gig, who
would you have recommended? AQ: To do this gig? MR: To do that gig. AQ: Ohhh, man, well, you have Louis Nash,
you have Kenny Washington, they're my favorites. You have, and Walter Perkins is an older drummer
but I don't know if, the power of those horns and stuff, because it's hard keeping that
section and the power of those horns going. But for that type of thing, they need somebody
disciplined. I never played a drum solo. I played one chorus, that was the whole night. That was the beginning of a tune, and that
was it. But mine was mostly - in the pocket type of
a thing. And I did that because - the way I got into
that was I was doing a movie in New York. I'm very close to Benny Wallace, tenor saxophone
player. And Benny Wallace got offered a music scene
because he started doing motion pictures. He did the Paul Newman "Blaze," he did "White
Man Can't Jump" with Wesley Snipes, and we did this one last, "Frankie the Fly." And we did it in New York with Joe Temperley
he played baritone saxophone, he was in there, and Steve Bernstein was in there, and I was
playing. And when I was playing on "Frankie the Fly,"
the woman was getting out of the big truck, you know, the trailer truck and she was stepping
down, and I had to play with her, like -. And then they had a part in there where the
guys were fighting down in the hole, and I had to play down like -, and every time he
struck like - licks. And then the blue screen, the blue line would
go across and I had to be out by the time - see when you're cutting a film you got a
certain amount of frames. When that blue line gets across you've got
to be out. And then the guy climbs to the top of the
hole and that's when I had to soften the mallets and he fell out like that and then they started
talking. But it was just that I did that one, and then
I did one with Jeff Goldblum and Laura Dern through Benny. It was a family prime time documentary or
something like that. But it's just like that's how I got a lot
of contacts within the studio. Louie Derry, not Lou Derry, Lou Levy. I did an album once with Benny Wallace at
Capital Studio and Jimmy Rowles got sick and couldn't make it. He said, "Man I can't make it man, can't make
it. Best thing to do is call Lou Levy." And Lou Levy came and finished the record
up. But then I got a call in Paris to do an album
with Lou Levy, it was one of his albums. So it's like one thing leads to another. MR: Right. If you do it well. AQ: That's how it worked. MR: We got to spend a day, I got to spend
a day with Panama Francis, and he sounds like a guy who maybe could have cut that Kansas
City gig. AQ: Well Panama is, I think he's a little
ill now. MR: Yes. But in his younger years. AQ: But the strength he had, that would be
great. But still there's another problem there. Panama would get annoyed because there's two
different ones going on. You've got a younger generation one up, and
you've got an older generation one down. That's where your problem is. I had a contrast going on in my head. I know how to work with this. I know how to do this, to make it - to make
it. MR: Are you talking about playing on top of
the beat and playing behind the beat and so this is not fiction? AQ: No, no, no. That's a challenge. No, no, no. The older man is here. The younger man is here. And I'm between the two of them. It's like taking Clark Terry and putting Clark
Terry on one microphone and put John Coltrane on another microphone. It's two different bands here. So now, when you put a drummer between that,
he's got to be versatile or we've got a problem. I mean that's how I play man. I can all of a sudden, you know I could take
Clark Terry, then John Coltrane. You know I've got two different ways of playing. And that's how I learned the instrument. It's hard man. A lot of musicians don't believe it. They say wait a minute, I just heard this
cat yesterday do that, now he's doing this. But now the rock thing, that's not my thing. I'd rather tell somebody who calls me that,
look, call Steve Gadd or call Bernard Purdie. But if you give me an older type of a thing,
and you give me a younger type of thing, straight ahead, no problem. Junior Mance I work with very often. I just did Junior's new album, "Live at the
Town Hall," a double CD with Houston Person, you know. So Junior is a different one to play with. Anybody can't play with Junior, 'cause Junior
plays a waaay back Jimmy Witherspoon type of blues, really slow. So if you're young and you're hyper, it's
not going to work, you see? I've seen big clashes go down with that one. MR: I have to mention, Junior Mance, he had
an album called "Harlem Lullaby?" One of my favorite tunes of all times. AQ: Get the new CD, "Live at the Town Hall"
we did that, it's one of the best cuts on the album, it's with Houston Person. He's playing tenor saxophone on that. MR: I'll look forward to that. AQ: I know Junior's whole repertoire. As a matter of fact I produced two albums
on Junior's name for my label for the record company. So me and Junior is like, I spoke to Junior
the other day, and we did three tours of Japan together. Junior - you have to be special to work with
Junior. Junior has a - all of them man have something
- Ray Bryant, Junior Mance, Tommy Flanagan - they all have their own way of playing,
their own way. And then that's why at rehearsals you're like
that because you're trying to see how can I get in there to make this work. And then after a while, like one hour, you're
in. Tommy's got some very tricky beginnings and
endings so you've got to really watch out. The easiest one, I was with Kenny Drew. I was with Kenny for about four or five years
I believe. And Kenny was the easiest one. Because you would say, "Kenny what are we
going to play?" "Never mind what we're going to play?" I say, "But what do you mean never mind?" I mean I did a TV show with a double CD set,
I never knew where I was going, "Live in Japan." MR: He didn't tell you the names of the tunes
or what do you mean? AQ: No, because him and Neils Pederson worked
together for thirty years as a duo. I took Ed Thigpen's place. And when I came in he said, "Just follow." With Kenny I don't remember any rehearsals,
or not that much. Everything we did in the studio, we would
run it one time. "Okay, you got it, that's it." "Well wait a minute." "No, no, no, no." Before I know it, it was taped. That's the way it was. MR: Did you ever have a situation where you
were supposed to do a gig, maybe a series of gigs with some people and it just didn't
jive? And you said you know, this isn't-
AQ: How do you mean, on the stage it didn't work, or it never came through? MR: It never came through as far as your own
trying to fit into what they were doing. Did you ever have to actually decline something
because you couldn't get into it as you say? AQ: Sure. Oh, no, no, no, no, you've got to realize
water and oil don't go together. This is a chemical thing - you understand
what I'm talking about? So there's great musicians - I don't recall
any names - I love very much, but I can't play with them on the bandstand. Period. That's all. There's guys who rush, there's guys who have
a rushing thing. You know, one, two, one-two-three-four -- and
I say hey, where you going? And these are guys who you know and have very
big names. Guys you know who have very big names and
it's just that they all have a problem of rushing or dragging, that's all. You don't know it. I know it. I can feel it. And it's the insecurity. You have problems like that with singers. Singers are insecure because they have no
control, only the microphone, so they have to trust the band. MR: I'm going to pause here for a second,
we'll just turn the cassette over. AQ: Yeah but see that's - you hit a very important
thing here. Because not all of them have that insecure
problem. I don't care what it is. The older musicians would say - that's why
I had to play with Lockjaw Davis, man. And Lockjaw and Dexter Gordon count so slow,
that you would drag to get to one. They said, "No, don't drag to one, hit the
one." He's looking for you to hit the one even though
he's past the one, he's gone. MR: Mentioning singers, you know, and Lockjaw
and those people, like you said, sometimes they're playing behind the beat, and you're
trying to figure out, am I supposed to go with that, or do they want me to stay right
on. AQ: Well the trick to that - everybody turns
around and goes, jumps on the drummer. And I tell a lot of drummers that, "Wait a
minute, let me explain this to you. They don't jump on you, they're telling you,
don't you hear what the situation is?" "Yes sir, I hear what the situation is." "Well nail it somewhere and hold it somewhere." They're not asking you to be a metronome. We're asking you that they shouldn't be running
all over the place like this. You understand what I'm talking about? Do something where everybody is satisfied. That's the job of a drummer. You've got a group of four or five people
and you've got to satisfy everybody. So how do I do this? Oh, you know how I do this? He rush - I'm going to play a hair behind
the beat. He drags - I'm going to play a hair on top
of the beat. He goes both ways - I'm going to get in the
middle of where he's going, and I'm going to watch his left hand, and every time he
goes down I'm going to go down with the left hand. You've got four pieces here. Just think of one hundred percent. You understand what I'm talking about? Four pieces. You're divided by four. Twenty-five, which is a quarter. You understand what I'm talking about? You've got four quarters, which makes it harder. So now, if he pulls a beat - when you're playing,
you have a whole drumset. The reason why you have this whole thing here,
and if something starts rushing or moving, you know it because it's all here. He's pulling at something over there. So he's pulling at something, whap - you bring
it back and say hey, it's here, like that. That's the trick to that instrument, man. It's one of the best - I mean this is the
best part of my life now, because really I look at your vibrations and your emotions
spiritually as a human being inside. We have the same thing going on inside. But a lot of times in this country, only the
masculine side of things are spoken about - not those easy, feminine part of things. Those are things which hide and those are
things which makes everything like, you know you get on the bandstand, and a guy, "I'm
going to take over." You can feel he's taking over. You can feel he's being not comfortable. You can feel - that's what the drummer is
all about. I have to feel where they're going. And that's all. Junior rush. Junior will rush. But every bass player I work I say, "Don't
go with him - you go with me, you stay here with me." And that's what he loves. He loves it. He says, "Yeah because when I turn around
and I come back, Queen is there." Monty - Monty Alexander, I work with Monty. Monty has a way of - we start together, but
Monty would take a solo and go into his solo - you understand what I'm talking about - that
the solo's way up here. But when Monty does that, going to the beginning,
he rolls back around and bamm, he hit it, he's right back where he started. He has a professional way of doing it. MR: Cool. Wow. You speak like, I want to pay you a compliment
and I'm not sure how to say it. You speak like fellows like Sweets, who've
had that - many years. You speak beyond your years. And so I mean you can tell that you've had
some great association with those guys. AQ: Well I try to help. You know I've worked with Kenny Burrell and
Barney Kessel, and it's one of the great musicians of the world but the first thing you do, you
never say hey man, what's-. The first thing you do, you say to yourself,
he knows it, I know it. The audience don't know it. And the only way the audience can know it
is if we get at each other's throat up there on the stage, they're going to know it. Now what is the solution to this? Oh, he rush - I pull it behind. I rush, he's got to pull it behind. But we've got to help each other up here. Then it comes out right. If we never play again in life, we will respect
each other for what we've done for each other. And that's the bottom line. You learn not to be defensive about someone
else who's insecure or whatever it is. You see that's the difference right there. And it's hard, but that's what it is. I've seen Buddy Tate, has told me before,
"No, no, no, take it easy Queen, take it easy, take it -" Because I hired the band. But the guy never played, never realized we're
buddies, was going with the chords. So I thought, insecure and embarrassed, oh,
man, I introduced this guy, so and so and so. Buddy says, "No you can't do that, Queen,
you've got to learn" you know like that. And I would say, "Okay Lady Tate," I called
him Lady Tate, because Lady, that's what he plays as, and he'd say, "All right, Lady Queen,
okay." I learned from the professionals man, how
to just- you know you can't do nothing about it. You've got this night, you've got to get it
through. And if the guy's nice you say, "Look, come
by the house tomorrow, I'll help you with something." And the guy appreciates. Because the guy knows what's going on. Carmen McRae was like that with piano players. Carmen McRae played piano. So if a guy wouldn't give her the correct
chord, "Ut uh, ut uh baby, not that." Sarah was like that, Sarah Vaughan, the same
way. But it's hard. It's just that, then you reach a certain level
where you say that I'm not going to settle for this no more. Because you reach the growing level. You start heading for fifty. Now it's time to apply something. But then you turn around and you can look
at Sweets and you look at all those older musicians, and you can go there, and you can
sit down and laugh about these arguments man. You can really laugh, because you can talk
about them. And Lockjaw Davis, I mean, I did a record,
"Live at the Domicile" with Lockjaw Davis, all right? My tempo was not the best on that. I know it was not the best. After that record date I went to Lockjaw and
I said, "Uh Mr. Davis, I'm very sorry about the record there." He said, "Let me tell you one thing. I'm happy you came to me. Take that record and make it a masterpiece,
seriously, yourself. And everything you've got to learn, listen
to that record. What you didn't do right, learn to do it right. But that record, that's for you." MR: Great wisdom. AQ: I mean that's how heavy it is, you know? Everything you think you didn't do right,
listen to that record. I rushed, I moved, tempos moved. I'm telling you. And it's a lot, man. Even the great musicians, I've heard a lot
of records. I heard Mr. John Coltrane, the Sunship album. If you listen to that album, you can hear
Elvin and Jimmy trying to get it together in there. You understand what I'm talking about? And something developed in there. That's one of my best albums in there, the
Sunship album. It's just that it has to be real. I mean because we're not machines. We try to be as close as we can, and then
if the music gets too perfectionist the life leaves out of it. That happens. MR: Well you know we usually wrap up the interviews
by asking do you have any words of wisdom for up and coming musicians, but you just
did an hour of it. AQ: Well the whole thing I can say is stick
to the basics of things, and keep it simple. It doesn't have to be complicated. The more complicated it gets, the worse - you'll
never see the pattern of what's really going on, musically. Listen to a lot of things like the Three Sounds,
the old Three Sounds records, and listen to them do it slowly. Then you hear it all. Look at the paper, look at the ups, look at
the downs, then you will hear the simple form of things, how it's supposed to go. Everything is moving too fast. If it moves too fast you'll never hear it,
and you know, they phrase, don't put something on top, go back to the source. That's how you differ. You go back to the source, you'll get it right. If you don't go to the source, you're going
to get it wrong. I went John Coltrane fast first, because I
kept up with Tony Williams, I came up in that era. And I changed. I moved back to Europe and I had to re-learn
the instrument all over again, because I had to work with the older musicians. You can prevent that but it's hard here because
what you hear on the radio and what you see, that's where it goes. But that's all I can, you know, recommend. And it's a pleasure just being here with you,
Monk. MR: Well it's been - I wish you lived in the
States -but I'm glad you're happy where you are - and get to hear you more. But I'm glad we had this opportunity and I
hope that we'll get to hear you play again, of course tonight we will, but some time in
the future. AQ: Oh, that's good - it's a pleasure being
here. MR: Well thanks so much for your time. AQ: Thank you once again for having me. MR: All right.
