Alistair Begg - Ask a Jew, Ask a Gentile

would you please join me in welcoming i don't believe in long introductions aleister beck needs no introduction truth for life has been on the radio for a quarter century he's been giaga county he's a he's actually a buckeye though he sounds like a scotsman uh and please join me in welcoming one of america's preeminent theologians alistair begg now our next guest i don't like him very much but occasionally i have to work with him he needs no introduction either dennis prager but he's coming up all right we dive right in uh dennis and i invented ask a jew maybe 10 years ago and we discovered that in an audience like this we will have an unusual number and i always like to find out how many are protestants how many are catholics how many are jews um how many are rastavisarians okay and so how many are atheists we usually have a few so people come to this event for a particular reason they like to hear talk about theology so it's a very appropriate week it is the week of passover and is the week of easter it's holy week actually so it's a wonderful time to do this and i wanted to start there dennis by messiah what do the jewish people believe and what do they expect of a messiah well first of all hi everybody it's a real it's a pleasure by the way before i answer i why did you title this i think you made up the title why isn't it ask a jew ask a christian why is it ask a jew ask a gentile well because the original one was asked a jew and all i did was talk to you and then they decided maybe it would help to have someone who knew theology to debate things with you so when it should be ask a christian yeah but ask a jew ask a gentile is a literature by the way i just want to tell you as a jew i have always found it very funny when people divide the world into jew and gentile 0.001 and 99.99 does anybody else do that is there like hindu and gentile shinto and gentile it's a very funny thing i i it's it's flattering but i never quite followed it be that as it may so you really went to the uh help of an issue immediately so let me let me very quickly if i can i'm not good at these quick answers because the question's very long but the the the traditional jewish view of the messiah is that when the messiah comes it's a it's an eschatological event it's a it's so to speak it's after this life as we know it uh it will be a world where the lion will lie with the lamb where peace will reign where jews will not be hated anymore which is probably less likely than the lion lying with the lamb and uh so it's when when people ask me how come you don't believe in jesus the messiah the the the primary answer is that what is supposed to happen according to judaism hasn't happened but i should add it it doesn't this is the this is the important part to me i don't have an issue with people who believe jesus the messiah the jewish issue has al has never been the messianic issue jews have believed that various jews at different times have been the messiah they have never been they've never created or been ostracized they've never created a different movement or a different religion or been ostracized the issue for jews was the divinity claim that christianity made not the messianic claim if the only claim people made about jesus was he's the jewish messiah then they would have been jews for jesus literally jews who believed in in jesus is the messiah it's it's the trinitarian and and uh divinity claims that caused the creation of a second religion now alistair you're a scholar and i assume in all those years and getting ready you had to study the old testament to what dennis will call torah we'll call old testament closely what was your understanding of what the jews expected of the messiah and how does christ conform to that well you know when you read the gospel records and you see the reaction of the jew to the claims of jesus and the disappointment that they felt the clearer he became it would seem that they anticipated that when the messiah came everything as dennis says would be put to rights so the oppression for example of the roman authorities would be taken care of they would be established in their own land if you like they would be secure and so on and so that expectation which i don't think was the right expectation was not met in jesus not because he didn't declare himself but because what he declared about himself did not meet their expectations so for example the beginning of mark's gospel begins jesus says the time is fulfilled the kingdom of god is at hand repent and believe the good news when john the baptist steps forward he says of this this man this galilean carpenter this is the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world so that the expectation of judaism into the very heart of the pentateuch is that in this sacrificial system there will eventually be a sacrifice that out sacrifices all the previous sacrifices and jesus steps forward and he says i actually am that one the reaction of course on the part of those who heard him speak was to crucify him dennis do you agree with that understanding that the messiah was ultimately to be a sacrificial person under your understanding of the first five books by the way you have a new book out don't you i have a second volume of my rational bible uh which uh by the way i'm very honored and delighted and and not surprised to be honest the christian reception of my bible commentary has been extraordinary and you could see that on amazon over 500 reviews mostly from christians who have have actually had their faith strengthened by the way i just want to say for the record there are very few i'm very proud of this fact i believe and it's it's a strange life if you will very few pastors are as responsible for the number of people who have come back to church as this jew is i just want to say that for the record i also want to add because this is really important i'm delighted by that fact if christianity fails in the west the west is over i am as committed to the success of christianity in the west as the most fervent evangelical christian or catholic in this in this auditorium because i know what will happen there was a jew heinrich heine the greatest considered many ways the greatest german prophet and a prophet excuse me i i consider him a prophet greatest german poet and he was a completely assimilated jew but a jew and he wrote a hundred and one years i think it is before hitler assumed power and i'm paraphrasing if christianity fails in germany what will happen will make the french revolution look like a walk in the park the german gods will unleash all their fury and they will be held to pay he predicted world war ii and the holocaust 100 years in advance and he said exactly why it would happen i am witnessing it we're not witnessing thank god a holocaust or anything like that in the west right now but the breakdown that is happening because christianity is breaking down churches are closing at some i mean regular rate weekly monthly yet i don't i wouldn't expect you to know the answer to this but i know that it's happening frequently so please understand where i come from now back to the theology i i believe that god wants the world to come to mount sinai mount sinai is where the ten commandments were given to moses i believe that that is for the whole world any religion that brings the world to the god of sinai and the ten commandments of sinai is my ally at its best christianity didn't always do this but at its best like american christianity that is what it does so to me i have long ago believed that jesus was the vehicle of my god the god of sinai to bring the world to sinai the jews as it were needed help we haven't done a great job bringing the world to sinai we did a great job introducing this world into the world and then because of a whole host of reasons both internal and external anti-semitism we didn't do the job that was i believe incumbent upon jews to bring the world to god and sinai christians have taken that up and the greatest jewish philosopher who ever lived maimonides in the 12th century wrote christianity has brought the world to the torah we so this is a traditional jewish view we in my view are allies in god's work in this world aleister you want to comment on that well i'm happy to be an ally with dennis for a number of reasons but um i would actually challenge what he has just said that the purpose of the bible as it unfolds is clearly not for the world to be brought to sinai but for the world to be brought to christ and that the temple in jerusalem which represented both the presence of god and the ongoing plans of god um is no longer the place to which men and women are coming because jesus infuriated the jewish people of his day by announcing to them you know you could tear down this temple and in three days it will be built again and they said it's taken so long to build a temple he said but you don't understand i am the temple and when you push all the way in the part of the the the issue for for dennis and what he said is the messiah can't have come because these things haven't yet happened well there's a telescopic element to it it's a bit like hill climbing when you get to the top of one hill you think you're there and you look and there's another one when you read the progressive story through the bible you realize that what has already taken place in christ as the messiah is not the ultimate fulfillment of that purpose so that the lion will lie down with the lamb so that the messiah will then come in not now in ignominy and in apparent defeat but in power and in glory so that uh when when you get to the book of revelation there there is no there is no temple there is no temple why because the presence of god is now embodied in the person of his only son and that of course brings us then to the very aspect that dennis is addressing which is the trinitarian aspect of what we believe in terms of the revelation of god so that there's a fundamental uh difference jesus challenged the jewish people of his day when he said to him if you believed moses you would actually believe me and uh so for somebody like dennis to say you know i'm the moses man and therefore then jesus would say to dennis what he said to the jews of his day if you really believed moses you would believe me right so therefore you're right i i don't i never claim there's no differences if there were no differences we'd both be either jewish or christian the the issue to me is all the all the our the differences are more significant to christians than they are to me i admit it i don't really care i am not a theology fan i am a morality and god fan and in uh in micah god says o man and not o jew o man adam he uses adam the human being o human being have i not told you all i want pursue justice love mercy and and walk humbly with your god so if christians bring people to that even though your aim is to bring people to christ that's fine with me i just want to know what what do you produce do the christians in america that i know produce as a rule fine families good people not perfect there is no such thing as perfect people yes are you the are you the jews only allies is a group yes are you israel's only allies as a group yes are you the foundation upon which america was founded because it was christians coming from europe that founded this country yes so we differ theologically fine it the truth is it bothers you more than me because i i realized this was fascinating it was a revelation to me my opening in radio some of you i'm sure remember religion on the line on another station okay that's about eight of you who recall that that was i i gathered that but in any event my first radio was the moderator of an extremely popular show in l.a religion on the line on abc radio and it was a priest minister rabbi each week different ones each week and finally i did this for 10 years and it was an immersion in in christian thought for 10 years and i realized i said to a pastor one day i now realize you are in much more pain than i am because you like me dennis you think i'm doing god's work in many ways and yet you feel i will not be saved and this truly bothers you and he said that's right it really does bother me and since then first of all the number of christians who say they pray for my salvation or just pray for me is very large and i'm very touched some jews are offended when they hear oh i pray for you to come to christ i'm never i'm i'm not i'm not offended in the least you do it out of love you're not doing it out of anger or hate so i accept it as such but that pain belongs to you not to me i i believe god judges people on behavior and and therefore i know you're gonna go to heaven to the extent that i can read good behavior on a good god but you don't know that i will or fear that i won't and i and i feel for you but please understand this troubles you much more than me i judge as jesus said i believe it's jesus i judge by fruit i don't have mormon theology i tremendously admire mormons they have produced a beautiful family life i have asked people over and over if you had to have a business deal and you you knew nothing about the person and you knew that they could ruin you if they were dishonest would you want an x a y a z or a mormon and how often people say i would rather do the business deal with a mormon having no theological uh uh consistency with that person that is all i care about that to me true religion is religion that makes good people who are god-fearing keep the ten commandments and the like that's what true religion is to me well with with all due respect to you what true religion is to you is not the issue nor is it what it is to me the issue we're talking here about at the at the very foundational level the identity of jesus of nazareth jesus makes the most outrageous claims he's not just away he's the way he's the light of the world he's the shepherd of the sheep he's the bread of life anybody who makes claims like that is either gonna have to substantiate them or hang his head in shame he when john writes of it in the most famous verse in the new testament he says for god so loved the world that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him would not perish but have everlasting life god did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved he who has the son has life he who does not of the son of god does not have life now at the very heart of any discussion like this is the question how believable then are the words of jesus and to to and you do it in a wonderful way because i enjoy you on the radio and i understand what you do and it's very disarming and endearing uh to all of us who uh are christian people that's uh it's uh no surprise to me and and i like it very very much but but it's not and it's not it's not very different from the average sort of well-heeled person in suburban cleveland whose view goes something like this a good god if he exists will reward nice people for doing their best and they'll say that is my view that god is grading on the curve and although i'm not a horrible person there are a lot of people who are really horrible people and so i might get at least a b if not a b plus well well so so what we're still back at the claims of jesus of nazareth we're we're at not simply at uh a good uh palm sunday which is today but we're at we're at the question of the resurrection i drove up here with a gentleman in the hour eli also this morning who picked me up from lax and we weren't in the car very long before he announced to me that he was a muslim and he said i want you to tell me about jesus i said why would i tell you about jesus he said i googled your name so so [Applause] so so i did my best and and eventually we had we had to come to the same point of departure we have to come to terms with the identity of jesus of nazareth if he is the person he claimed to be the son of god then we've got a discussion if he's not then sure externalism morality good deeds trying to make the place as good as we can for as long as we can all of that works but all of that can happen without religion as well as with religion now i have a a comment and then a question or let me reverse it aleister have you made a a video for prager university peggy pardon have you made a video for prager university no not yet oh okay that's two of us on the eve he's setting him up we have not made and you want to make a video for prager university on this subject of the claims of jesus i'll be happy to make one on richard nixon would you like two videos for prager university the claims of richard nixon no just i know i'm just not gonna do theology and he made some good claims but i i'd just like to have us both invited to join it is that okay with you we you know what in all seriousness we do in it would not be wise if if i started this rabbi makes the case for judaism this protestant makes the case for evangelical christianity this catholic makes the case for catholicism and this muslim makes the case for islam or even stop just at the abrahamic world well that is an abrahamic religion we so we we have there's no case for judaism at prager university and there's no case for christianity dennis won't let me on prager university and so that was just an elegant way to say no he's never let me on it's got like 25 bazillion views how many views does it have 2 billion 2 billion views and he won't let me near prager university i though i recommend you visit it today for this now here's my commentary i want like your reaction dennis is without question the most proselytized jew in the world am i right about that i don't know but it's up there because yeah my boss and his edward uh we travel together a lot and i'll be operating political stuff and ed and dennis will be talking theology and hebrew and stuff and i my theory dennis is that you've been proselytized so much like a battleship that we're throwing pebbles at we can't possibly get through because you've like batted away a thousand bad arguments what do you think they're not bad arguments they're arguments of faith i don't i don't i believe for example i believe that god split the sea to let the israelites through and then close the sea again and drown the egyptian army i don't try to persuade anybody that that happened because i know it's a statement of faith i try to persuade people that there is a god that that that therefore there's meaning and morality in life otherwise it's all random and there's no difference between murder and and and mother teresa but i i know what i believe that is a statement of faith and i acknowledge that there is a room for faith that isn't provable if faith were provable then it wouldn't be called faith it would be cold proof and and we religious people don't look good if we offer something of faith well dennis if you just think clearly you undoubtedly would understand that god has a son you can't say that you can say you have every you personally have every reason to believe that jesus of nazareth is god's son god's only begotten son and died for our sins and i admire that belief but you can't say that sheer logic just the read of the bible leads to that because that leads to the jews really are blind and it can only ultimately lead to the medieval christian uh hatred of jews what the hell you really do have the devil for a father that is what was sent to jews you gave us you he's a jew came to you and you didn't even see him you are sick that's really if if if if push comes to shove that is really what might be implied here as opposed to this is my faith and i dennis will judge your faith solely solely by what you produce that's it there is no other criterion i do it with my fellow jews and i do it with christians what is the fruit of your faith in medieval europe it was pretty awful in america it is spectacular i'm going to defer to aleister i don't think your logic runs correctly but let's hear what allison thinks well well i hope that you're not arguing that your faith creates the exodus that the exodus is of validity because it is for you an expression of faith i believe there was an actual exodus that the red sea uh was parted as it is described for us in the bible so that faith in faith is nothing other than faith and faith the question is is there a basis for this faith are we dealing with real history in real time with real people if we are then we have a foundation upon which to make our statements of faith that's why one of the one of the most one of the finest jewish fellows of the first century saul of tarsus finally says if christ is not risen then your faith is futile now if what he was actually saying was all that really matters is your faith whether there's a basis for it or not is rather is is neither here nor there the claim of christianity is that it is historical that it is rational and that it is empirical that it can be put to the test that the evidence of the new testament for the resurrection of jesus has to be interacted with when when the great arch atheist wrote his book dawkins he never interacted for more than a page with the question of the resurrection of jesus he dismissed him out of hand which was intellectually impoverished and it was logically uh wrong and so when when it we can't get away with simply saying it's just a matter of faith and you can determine whether the person was a nice guy or not because the because we're not left with that as an option i had um mr dawkins on the radio show once and talking about a book and at one point he said wait a minute are you a christian and i said yes i am he said do you believe in miracles i said well yes i do he said do you believe that jesus changed water into wine i said well yes i do he's really and i said yes really he said oh my god and i said no actually it's my god and he just thought i was an irrational fool so my question to you for a moment is aleister beck if in fact c.s lewis is right that jesus is either liar lunatic or lord he is manifestly not a liar given the accounts that we can rely on so that's either lunatic or lord what if he's a lunatic do we revert to judaism and i'm serious would that be the most rational explanation for the design that we have around us if someone decided okay take if jefferson takes him out and he's not divine do you revert to judaism that's a good question my job yeah and i and and i think yes that would have to be our default position because we we're we are founded on the on the judaism we we are based in all of that the only the only point of departure is and dennis and i have spoken about this before you know if you think of the bible as a two-act drama um uh dennis showed up for the first half and then he went out for a drink and never came back and and happens it happens and and he and he's he thinks that i just showed up a half time and asked a lot of irrelevant questions if i'd only shown up for the first half we could both have had a really good evening but uh no yeah the default position would definitely be there incidentally dennis i i don't think it would be an accurate statement for for i certainly wouldn't want to make it the way that you posed it i if you would only look at this and you were sensible and you were logical then like me you would conclude that that is not what what the the bible says in fact what the bible says is that um that that that god is unknowable that that he is beyond the realm of our intuitive radar that we can access him on our own terms or in our own time that he is the one the god of revelation who has spoken the world into being we agree about this on the on the the the doctrine of creation that he is the one who has called abraham out of her of the caldis it wasn't that he is miraculous what he did and that it is he to abram that he made the promises of the covenant which run all the way through the the old testament so much so that by the time you get to good friday you've got jesus saying this is the blood of the covenant this is this isn't some newfangled idea this is this is christ reaching back into what his friends knew and understood and so there's a there's there are a lot more lines that run through that you could consider and i could suggest but at the end of the day only god opens blind eyes and all of our eyes are blind jewish eyes protestant eyes every kind of eyes only god opens them and only god softens hard hearts i i do um so i just want to go back to a point you made earlier and this probably would strike you as i don't know if odd is the word but i plead 100 guilt guilty to the charge that god keeps a scorecard of our ethical behavior that's what i believe i believe that god wants us to be good and that a good atheist a kind and sweet atheist who does not advocate for atheism advocating for atheism is a terrible sin not on religious grounds on moral grounds because there is no hope for the future of humanity with a godless morality these people are fools who believe it uh charles krauthammer who was a completely secular man when i asked him about atheism on my radio show he said it's the stupidest doctrine he is aware of a man he's a thoroughly secular agnostic man and i agree with him it is the stupidest doctrine possible and but it is possible to be a kind just they were kind people who believed in zeus we all agree with that there were kind pagans so i believe that the kind pagan has a better hereafter than the evil jew evil believing jew or evil believing christian do you or not no i don't believe that so an evil christian has a better hereafter than a kind non-christian no i don't believe that if you've posed it as an alternative as if there are only two ways to to view that all right so the the expression to to your point the idea of fruit so when paul who himself was a very convinced self-righteous jew able to testify to his own background to his training to his teacher as gamaliel and so on he finally realized that all of that was for him just like rubbish and when he wrote concerning the nature of the grace of god he says you know for it is by grace that have been saved through faith and this not of yourself it is the gift of god so that no one should boast and then he says for you have been created in christ jesus to do good works which he has foreordained for you to do now religion says if we could caricature it in his totality religion essentially says do good things and god will accept you christianity says you could never do enough good things you are accepted in jesus therefore do good things so from the one perspective the good things are the basis of acceptance from the teaching of the new testament the good things are an evidence of the fact of your acceptance that you have actually embraced the free gift which is on offer to us in and through uh the work of jesus aleister i like to be mildly provocative is there a hell and is dennis going to it [Laughter] is beggar pardon well if if we are going to again if you're going to take jesus at his word the answer to the first part of the question is yes and the answer to the second part of the question is not yet and if i'm right dennis your answer is i don't worry about it my answer yes well first let me explain uh i defend christians a great deal on this issue you have no idea how often in jewish life in which i am very involved jews will write dennis is so naive that's when they're sweet uh dennis is so naive you know he does all this work with christians and he he he's a christian lover and uh and they think he's going to hell what the hell's wrong with him really i get that a lot and i answer back i don't care where people think i'm going i care where people how people are treating me here christians treat me beautifully that they believe that i have a dark future is painful to them if i believed it i'd convert to christianity obviously so it isn't painful to me if one thinks that the way you treat me and and and and the world and my fellow jews that's how i judge you there are people who don't think i'm going to hell who make life hell for me my fellow jews [Applause] not all not all 72 percent that's the number who vote democrat but uh that was a joke if the press is here i'm joking about my fellow viewers but uh so i i understand that and i do believe there is a hell i just believe that you go to hell for your works but i just want to make it clear i think that a lot of christians sell christianity short because you if your works show your faith which is your position then you ironically or maybe not ironically but you really have as much emphasis on on works as i do if if bad works show no faith or bad faith and then you go to hell it's it's why is that different from mine that bad works alone well because of the person of christ in the middle of it all i mean it comes back to that every single time we're not dealing here with a conceptual idea philosophically we're dealing if we want to talk about the jew and the christian we're we're dealing with the fact that i have to do something with the fact that the message of the cross of jesus christ not jesus the religious leader jesus the guru but but jesus on a cross the message of the cross which is at the very heart of christianity is says paul again foolishness to those who are perishing but to those who are being saved it is the power of god and so we have to we we if you want to go if you want to go to hell you have to step over the cross of jesus christ let's put it that way that that stands blocking our route to hell he stands there as it were with open arms saying you don't have to go there because of what i have done for you so there is a fundamental difference about which you're asking no no there is a fundamental difference i only wanted to point out though that you're you emphasize works as much as we do you just don't think it's enough i fi fair enough but you emphasize its importance because to you evil christian is an oxymoron is that correct well um well no because yes and no because the the the the reality of of the gospel message is that we are saved sinners that that we are okay so our is okay so then right here we really may have our first what matters to me difference okay good and that is i don't believe everyone is equally moral or immoral their aggradations we're all sinners is unhelpful that's like saying we all get sick but we're not all sick everyone gets the flu everyone gets a cold but not everybody gets cancer there's a big difference between cancer and a cold or the flu so yes none of us is perfectly healthy but everybody in this room knows that some people are much healthier than others all of us are sinners but some people are much greater sinners than others a concentration camp guard who tortured people to death is not the same as the guy who took a stapler from the office do we agree on that no no i'm not kidding because there are callers to my show who said that's not true dennis in god's eyes concentration camp guards and people who take staples from the office are equal sinners well i think i know why those people are trying to argue that because they want to preserve the doctrine of total depravity and they're doing a poor job of it by addressing you in that way from my humble estimation surely there surely there are gradations of and expressions of evil that are represented in in the difference between the thoughts of our minds the expression of our words and the actions of our hands now what what the what the bible is actually saying if i understand it correctly is that there is no part of our there is there is no part of our existence that that is unaffected by the reality of sin it doesn't mean that we're all as bad as we could possibly be but it does mean that that sin our rebellion against god or indifference towards him has affected every part of our lives our emotions our intellect our wills and so on the way in which that is worked out in an individual life varies to flip it around let's put it the other way for a moment if i may if if you say um let's you say uh we're going to have to jump from this edge of the platform over to the other edge of the platform without touching the platform because the prize is only if you get to the other side if you go and you get to stage two and i go and i get to stage one and uh our fair friend here he almost makes it to the end guess what none of us got there none of us got the prize we were all equally uh unable to bridge the chasm that's why when the bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god it's not actually it's saying that we are in an equal condition before god in terms of our alienation it doesn't mean that we have all expressed the gravity of that to the same extent as others have but what it does mean is that the person who has fouled up horribly may also be the beneficiary of the grace that is extended to us in and through the same work of this galilean carpenter if he changes his behavior no if the change in behavior will then flow from right but if he doesn't have a change of behavior would you say he really hasn't accepted christ yes that's all the point i'm making you jesus you emphasize works just as much as i do the only difference again is you don't believe works are enough for salvation i appreciate that but christians i think because i'm i'm your biggest non-christian advocate you are selling yourself short in the eyes of others by by by uh minimizing how important goodness really is to you because you are saying if you act in a certain way it shows you really didn't accept christ so there is a there is a works measurement that you have as well i have it and you have it we have we and by the way the notion this is a this is an area where we do differ uh not theologically this to me is not just theology this is logic god does not expect us to be perfect i have never in my life encountered that conception in in anywhere in the old testament i don't i don't know i i know where paul claims it from because in deuteronomy there is a verse those who were cursed who do not follow these laws but it has to do with the laws of the previous 10 verses it is not about the entire torah torah means law it doesn't mean just the five books of moses and it is clear to anyone who reads it that it is only one who violates any one of those i mean there were terrible things like incest i mean there's a pretty bad list and and you will accurse this he who violates any one of these rules he took that to mean cursed is anyone who violates any rule in the in the torah what kind of god is that he gives you a rule book he knows we are flawed and sent us to hell for being flawed i that's not the god i i believe in well clearly not but interestingly when you talk about the curse uh the what the what the bible says is that and here's the mystery of it that in exercising his justice and in expressing his love in the person of his son christ bears the curse for us as the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world and it to quote again the old testament that's why they looked on that scene on on the outskirts of jerusalem and said this could not possibly be the messiah because cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree so they said when they looked up at that bloody mess on the cross they didn't go oh this must be the messiah they looked up and they said this can't be the messiah look at it the whole thing has collapsed has come to a sorry end and and and it's over and even the disciples themselves were pretty convinced of that so you've got to then say so what in the world changed them was it uh was they just banged their heads or did jesus really rise and if he rose then we're back again at the same question then we've got to deal with him i have a question for both of you specific to your faith alistair why is it a matter of urgency to you that you persuade people of the truth of what you believe is why is it a matter of urgency because um the mandate that is given to us from the lord jesus is to go out into all the world and proclaim this good news and make sure that people become his followers so on the one hand it is a matter of the lordship of christ on the other it is a matter then of the love of christ at one point paul says for the love of christ constrains us that since one died for all therefore if i truly love my jewish friends of whom i have many i mean dennis is not my only jewish friend you know i do i'm one of the great lovers of the jewish people he wants to be their lover of the christians i want to be the lover of the jews third of my third in my classes we need you we have to a third a third of my class in school in glasgow was jewish my blood brother was ian brody we we cut our thumbs with uh with pen knives and rubbed our thumbs together as an expression of that that was a sin yeah it was we we didn't we didn't suck our thumbs afterwards though we cut elsewhere in jewish life and that was not a sin um yeah why why because because if jesus christ is the person he claimed to be then there is no one else who is qualified to save therefore the idea that uh you can take your chances with a question of hell if jesus is the person he claimed to be i can't live with that as a possibility therefore i am i am forced to say to to unbelieving anybody's have you ever considered the claims of jesus christ i mean one of my favorite jews is paul simon who's now what he's like he's like probably 76 years old he still has he still doesn't have the answers to the questions that he was posing when he when he wrote his his earliest songs i've just seen him twice on tour when he met with john stodd as a result of the initiative of cromerty who died you know him when he met with him he he went in to speak with john stott and and he went in with all his guns blazing and start said to him he said listen paul why don't we just spend the time trying to address the question is jesus christ the person he claimed to be if he is we've got a discussion if he isn't let's go to the bar now my question to you about judaism by the way i have many jewish friends it's just that dennis isn't one of them many jewish friends you're not one of them no that's that's true that's true on friday night passover it's an incredible ceremony i think you do a a passover thing every year for seder seder right do you do it for christians too isn't there a seder with dennis sort of thing in a box oh no what is interesting there there's actually let me tell you what interesting first of all we obviously have not non-jews at the at our table very often in fact i had non-jews at my shabbat dinner and in judaism shabbat is more important than passover because it's in the ten commandments so the sabbath is the most important holy day in judaism it happens 52 times a year but it's still the most important day and by the way i want to ask you a question not not to not to argue right it's pure curiosity uh and then i'll get back to my shabbat story i'll ask you right now and then i'll get back to my question go ahead this is very no this will interest me i have asked probably 500 christians in in since i began that religion on the line 35 years ago uh mostly pastors priests ministers is a christian and this is pure curiosity i have no argument here do you feel do you believe feel forget feel do you believe that a christian is obligated to keep the sabbath and i don't mean saturday i mean the the the fifth commandment yes so it do you know what would you be surprised to know that fifty percent of the time i am told no i wouldn't be at all surprised because i'm i'm alien in relationship to this um if you remember the movie chariots of fire where where eric little refuses to run those are my roots i actually think that um american christians have bailed out dramatically in relationship to this and that although they proclaim the ten commandments they only believe in nine and uh sometimes only practice about four so uh no i i do how we work that out but straightforward yes no yes good well i i want christians to feel uh obligated i i the whole creation story is to teach us about the sabbath it's not the teachers even about creation that's how important the sabbath is anyway i just wanted to say in light of your question so i had non-jews christian or just just plain gentiles uh over for sabbath dinner so often my older son one day he was about eight nine years old on friday afternoon he said dad i'm just curious are we having any jews for shabbat and and i always have a cute story about that you could always tell who the jew or the christian is at my at my shabbat table the the the christian the jew jewish visitors never wear a yamaka the christian visitors all wear yarmulkes i have been dennis's guests at shabbat and i think the difference is that the the ends up losing at hearts when we're done at the end yeah but that was not you fed said we cheated and that was that was really wrong now my question about passover though is much much more serious big holiday big holy day i don't understand what you said about 52 days being more important than passover but it's big if it's so big why are jews indifferent to proselytizing i mean you don't really care if anyone becomes a jew right don't really care is is a little overstating it uh i have no interest in a committed christian becoming a jew i am very happy if someone committed to neither christianity nor judaism becomes a jew but i totally i want people my first rule is explore what you rejected if you came from a jewish home explore that before you reject it if you came from a christian home explore that before you reject it that's my rule of thumb because i also want people to continue having a bond in that way with their family so that that's that that is my rule of thumb there but yes obviously i would rather somebody be reading maimonides uh than the new york times editorial page which is the current bible uh in in the united states uh and and it and it is it is an unhealthy and morally uh troubled page so uh but but you will know and by the way paul said this that jews ripe jews would sail cross oceans and say and cross continents to make a convert a tenth of the roman empire at the time of jesus was jewish one tenth of the entire roman empire it's because jews sought converts and it was a very appealing thing compared to to roman pagan religion intellectuals i don't mean phd's i mean people who thought thought you know what i this invisible creator god makes more sense to me than zeus uh so the this was a is and they loved the sabbath was a huge appeal uh to to them the family life that jews had and then the first thing that uh that was done when the roman empire became christian was to ban conversion to judaism and jews from then to this day knew you convert you risk your life let's get out of the conversion business and that's that's what happened i didn't know that i know people don't jews don't know that jews think oh we don't see converts well we don't see converts in the sense that christians do because if you don't become a jew you don't have a salvation we don't have that that theology but we we did seek it when when it was opened for us to seek but uh given my belief in the word judeo-christian in terms of values i if a if a non-jew returns to church i am thrilled right now i want to pick up on your your new books and i'm not shining you on here because i'm hoping you invite me to make a video for prager university someday we would love you to make a video for prager universe heard for years yeah but you're you're too new you're all witnesses to my having said that you're two new books and i know people at prageru as you have written your commentaries and aleister i don't know if you've written a commentary on on genesis or deuteronomy dennis is written on both have anything have you ever stopped and said oh my christian friends oh edward they'd really be encouraged by this because it fits with the jesus narrative that ever occur to you it occurs to me the whole time that's why i opened by saying how christians love the book and why wouldn't they it's called the rational bible my commentary i'm using reason to bring people to god and god's word the the torah is god's word to a christian just as much as it is to a jew so why would this not in empower a christian to greater belief but do you see any prophecies of jesus no i don't but but to be to be truthful i do read i do read christ-centered uh commentaries on on on the torah and they're excellent by the way but most christological uh references for a christian are in the prophets not in the not in the torah aleister where do you find most of your christological references in the torah or the old testament only in the prophets no i mean right from the very beginning in uh in what theologians would recall would refer to as the proto-eu angelion the prototype of the gospel where uh the word is uh concerning the serpent that the seed of the woman that you will that you will bruise his heel and he will crush your head that right there in what is it genesis 11 12 2 3 2 or 3 right there you have the first indication at least you asked the question does it make you stop well i don't think we can say conclusively that the answer to that is this but that would be the first place then the calling out of abraham then if you think about the way in which an old testament believer would if somebody had asked him uh to give me your testimony you know he said well uh we lived we lived in in a land uh under bondage and uh and uh a mediator came and the mediator uh let us out we sheltered under the shed blood of the passover and uh he led us towards our own land and our own place we are not there yet but we will be there that would be the way uh that you that somebody would explain their faith to you which actually sounds very very much like the way a christian would explain it we lived in bondage a mediator came we found our refuge in the shedding of the blood we have now we're beginning to move towards a new country we're not there yet it's not finished hence the lion has not laid down with the lamb the pieces in the puzzle have not all been brought to fruition so you know when i talk to friends like dennis i i mean i i in the awareness of the fact that if if if pure logic was the case to it uh then most of us would would never be able to make much headway at all so so our what what i what i want to say to to my friends and i've got people in my mind now that i've spoken with for example the guy that i used to lease cars from when when when he was diagnosed with brain cancer and i went just to visit him as a friend because he's a jewish man and i and i said to him i said you know what is your what's your end plan here what's your what's your exit strategy he said to me i don't have one i said well can i suggest anything to you he says well yeah maybe you can but i only want you to do it if no one else is here so he said come back when my wife isn't here when none of my family are here and then i went back and he said okay tell me and i said to him stan this is not about you ceasing to be a jew this is not about a big discussion about who what when or where the messiah the messiah is the question he's a jewish messiah he's your messiah all you have to do is trust him but don't i have to do this don't i have to do that said no all you have to do is this i said i'll take it under cognizance and then he kicked me out and in a few days he died but but but the point of it was to be able to to be able to say to him to to to appeal to him on the basis of love and affection and kindness because then when we introduce the the issue of uh eternity it's all very well on a sunny sunday afternoon sitting here but i mean when i go home tuesday i have a funeral on thursday for one of the members of my congregation who was on a business trip out of town and died in his bed at 64. now he died and went somewhere and so will we therefore i believe this or i believe that has to be grounded in something and that's why i'm may i'm stake in my my case not on myself or on my endeavors but on the promises that have been made in the one who i believe to have been the fulfillment of the promises of the old testament dennis i think one of the most very well said allison one of the most controversial things you say in an endless parade of controversies on the dennis prager show is i believe and i don't put words in your mouth you've said that jesus never claimed to be the son of god am i quoting no i i said we when people i don't accept the the things lunatic liar or lord i there there are any number of possibilities when i was challenged with that i said it is also possible that he didn't say it and it was written by those who believe he said it so i i i i don't accept that those are the only three alternatives that one has and i'm a big admirer of um lewis yes of cs lewis by the way i want to say something uh here see i mean i'm in a very good position and also it's it's a somewhat tenuous position and i fully understand that but what you said is beautiful see i i understand the beauty of christianity on religion on the line one night it happened is very touching one night a guy calls in i did this for 10 years every week so it's a lot so i got pretty good by year five in defending christianity by year seven i was better than most of the christians and one day a guy calls in and he just started mocking jesus go give me a break god had a son what do you what do you believe in this stuff what are you under your mind so so the guy gave an answer and i don't i don't expect him listen i did this for for seven years i didn't expect him to have a great answer some did some don't so i said allow me i'm a jew i don't believe in jesus but i want to say to you sir i think it's pretty beautiful the idea that god saw suffering humanity and would come down in human form and suffer with us what's so bad about that sir and there was total silence which is my favorite thing on radio you have no silence on radio is golden truly golden i mean wha why would people mock it i mean it's one thing do you fully believe it but it is there's a beauty to it there's a beauty in my opinion to jesus saying to god why did you abandon me which is a fascinating thing if he was so certain who he was and by the way tell me your answer i have a thought but as a as a christian why would jesus say to god if he came to die for our sins why would he say why did you abandon me when he's dying well that's a that's good um and i can make a stab at that two things that we have to factor into that one is that jesus is fully man and fully god all right so he has both humanity in its totality and divinity in its totality that in itself is an immense mystery we have to stay up all night unraveling that however so it is a real jesus who finds himself it is a real human person who finds himself in the garden in the prospect of his crucifixion and he is there there are elements to that that are emotional physical but foundationally spiritual because he recognizes remember well maybe you don't remember but in this high priestly prayer in john 17 he says father glorify me with the glory that we had together before the world was created i am about to return to you father this is this is john 17. this is before this is in the upper room discourses before he gets to gethsemane so it would have been surprising to me i would have to i would have to adjust my view of the humanity of jesus if there were not a recoil from the reality of that but fundamentally from the awareness of the fact that he was now about to experience something that he had never experienced and that is alienation from the father how can god be alienated from god right how can this be and and and that is that's at the very heart of it all that uh that you know that the hymn writer says well might the sun in darkness hide and shut its glories in when god the mighty maker dies for man the creature's sin that the atonement is not jesus submitting somewhat reluctantly to a plan conceived off by the father nor is it jesus somehow or another convincing the father that he ought to do something that he wasn't actually really keen on doing but it is actually not they they are both subjects neither of them are objects i would uh i i my view is similar that jesus is fully man right and fully god in in the new testament that's that's it's to the new testament's credit that it kept the line in there oh god why did you abandon me sure because if they just wanted to whitewash the whole thing they could have so i i i consider that a very important and line but at the same time i want you to recognize if if jesus had a moment of doubt that he was god's son allow other people to have that moment of doubt too well well we must allow the scriptures to say what the script say it doesn't say that he doubted his identity it says that he recoiled from the reality no if god you've abandoned me that means this was not your plan why did you abandon me so you abandoned me means this was not the plan no it doesn't necessarily no okay you abandoned me means you were gonna protect me and you're not protecting me or any anything what else could it possibly mean this is not what this jesus the man is lamenting i didn't know this was the plan god no that's you you get that from jesus christ superstar rather than no no no no no there is no tell me what why did you abandon me means well no i didn't see jesus christ superstar so i could not i'm one of the 11 americans who has not seen it yeah so i i didn't get it from there okay that's fine i was rather an unkind jive on my part um just to prove how sinful we all are you see that yeah it's okay you proved it an hour ago yeah yeah it was a joke for over the statements all of the statements that are made in the context of the atonement have to be taken in companionship with each other so for example jesus jesus is saying no one takes my life from me i have the power to lay it down and i have the power to take it up again so in other words he is not being coerced into something that was that was not uh intended it is the it is the cry of alienation which is as i say was on account of the fact that he was entering into something that he had never before experienced the the issue of our lives is that we are alienated from god on two counts one on god's side because of his holiness and his wrath against sin and then on our side on account of our rebellion against god and the fight that we are lawbreakers and sinners therefore in the atonement both the wrath of god and the love of god have somehow or another to be expressed and satisfied if god did not punish sin then he wouldn't be true to himself and justice would not be served if god did not provide in himself the answer to that then his love would have been imp impaired so it is it is in that moment when jesus realizes i'm entering into this experience of alienation the natural recoil is my god my god why have you forsaken me and the answer of course is i have forsaken you because that's what we agreed on i i want to i i was given a list of questions from the audience when we came in i said this is an hour and a half i'll never be done with it but we have 12 minutes so i'm going to do a couple of questions i might add though if i recall correctly martin luther said god under god forsaken god who can understand that so it's not like this is a new theological question that that particular cry has been around for a while so question from the audience i believe we are in a real battle between good and true evil what can we do will our country survive i believe our president is the only thing standing for us he's standing up against tyranny that that's both political but it's also do you believe in a battle and so that's epistemological what do you what do you think else or do you believe in a battle do i believe that we're in a battle that there's a battle between good and evil absolutely it's at the very heart if we're back in the pentachuck again um what people what people mean by that um and i don't know what really lies behind the question the the the real the real fundamental expressions of that uh can be seen in all kinds of ways can be seen on the the challenge that exists against uh god as creator uh as god as the creator of the family as god as the creator of marriage as the order that exists within the structure that god has intended for the structures of society and for justice and for well-being and i don't think as i move around i can get agreement on one question every single time no matter to whom i speak and that is do you believe our world is broken and people say yeah it's broken where we disagree is how do you get it fixed but yeah there's a battle dennis i am increasingly convinced that it's a rel it is religious in nature and that the left not liberals but the left represents the force of chaos that is what i have finally understood it's extremely difficult to understand leftism if i ask you or you're a christian so how do i know what you believe you say here's the bible have a nice day you say to me as a jew here's the bible have a nice day say to a leftist what do you believe what does he give you there is no text none i've studied this my whole life since i studied under brzezinski the national security adviser uh under under jimmy carter uh at the russian institute of columbia my my whole life i've studied the left there is no there is no text you give somebody you know does capital of marx first of all they won't understand it and and won't it won't help it's not why why will that explain why the left believes that if you identify as a female you can run against females in high school races in connecticut when it's patently absurd that male bodies run against female bodies win the races and it counts i mean it's it's it's not just forget morality it's just an absurd it's it's it's the the world is upside down i don't understand reality if they're right one of us has a misread of reality that it is fair for male bodies to run against female bodies so i finally realized there is no text there is no set of dogmas on the left it's chaos that's all it is do you you don't follow this as much as i do it's you're not expected to the number of scatological art exhibits scatological means related to uh excrement urine and and fecal matter exhibits around the world the new york times had a big feature on its art pages last year about a giant exhibit and this is its words of giant sculpted turds in in holland at one of the biggest museums a room as big as this and all you did was walk around giant turds you i know you're laughing and you're laughing at it not with it and that is proper but it's it's this is where is it in marx that you should sculpt fecal matter it doesn't exist they are a force of chaos good is bad bad is good male is female female is male it is it is a constant source of chaos and that is why this really hit me i my second volume of my rational bibles coming out next month and it is genesis i started with exodus and i i realized you know what god did in those six days he made order out of chaos yes he created but the biggest thing he did was make distinctions night and day good and bad light and dark land and sea human and and animal all the world is based on distinctions and the left is destroys every distinction so this is the ultimate battle that is taking place and that's why they hate christians more than any other group because you're the only group in their way at this time [Applause] so we've had all this time in history to get it right and we're as screwed up as at any point in history the world is broken the god who established order out of chaos is the bible says the god who will reestablish order even out of our chaos and we're back again to the same question in whom will that order be found and where is this messiah whereby the lion will lie down with the lamb whereas or when order will be restored you you look for that and so do i right but there is a danger in that in that it could make you lackadaisical in fighting for god's design well jesus will fix it in his good time no no okay fine so long as you're not saying that i don't have any issues no if if wilberforce said that we would still we'd still be that's right well said okay good i just want to make sure that nobody gets lazy and says look god will fix it in his way in his time jesus will come a sec you know a second coming we'll fix it all i don't have to do anything i'm going to go to the movies tonight no i don't want and by the way and and serious christians are not saying that that's why i said you are the as a force i mean obviously there are individuals who are not christian who are fighting as well and and here's the killer not all christians are fighting all right five minute warnings i want to give you that's the most painful uh of all my realizations four and a half minute warning i want to give you each two and a quarter minutes just to say whatever's on your heart alistar first then dennis and then we'll say good night by the way it's a pretty fast 90 minutes right i mean let's let's be honest admit it you know he he's good he is very good i didn't want to even do it with him i thought he beat me up i but uh time flies when you're having fun well i regard it as a privilege to have been included in this i don't recognize myself in the introduction i mean if my son is watching this he's going who told him that stuff that's just not true um but i could plug my latest book but i won't out of a sense of undue humility and so um he's right in the the rational bible and and my my son said why don't you write a book that somebody wants to read so um the the summation for me i i'm back where we i'm back where we start um and that is to say as i read my bible and this takes me back to my roots in scotland as far the only if you take your eyes off jesus you lose your way around the bible the bible the bible is actually and incidentally if you refuse to read the bible you can't understand history you can't understand the history of the world that's why that's why secular historians they manifestly manifoldly miss the point again and again because they refuse to accept either the doctrine of creation or the fall of man or whatever else it is so in the old testament he is uh predicted in the gospels he's revealed in the acts he's preached in the epistles he's explained and in the book of revelation he's expected the entire framework the good the bad the new the perfect and that perfection awaits us when a new jerusalem will come out down out of heaven from god as a bride prepared for her husband and all who are gathered completed jews converted gentiles brought into the blessings of the covenant that were promised to abraham a united company not united by their political agenda but united by their humble trust in the provision of god for men and women who will simply acknowledge themselves to be sinful and in need of a savior it's always an advantage to be the last one to speak oh no i humbly uh apologize but it was he's the one who made the rules i just want to react to that in a way you may not expect i think it's beautiful what you said i have no i have no issue but i want you to understand the number of people who 100 agree with you and accept christ as their savior and have the opposite values that you in this room have is not small belief in christ doesn't guarantee anything belief in judaism doesn't guarantee anything it's a terrible problem i wish it did i know you wish it did wouldn't it be great oh you believe in christ then obviously you believe that there's a male female difference oh you believe in christ then it's not that complex to you that little tiny israel would like to survive as a little jewish state among 23 arab states and it's okay to support but the presbyterian church usa whom i am convinced whose pastors believe in christ with every bit as much sincerity as you do pass a resolution on on on boycotting israel and strangulating one state on earth not north korea not china not not iran israel in the name of christ this is the problem i wish that everybody who believed in god everybody who believed in christ followed basic we could differ on on all sorts of things but basic rules set forth in this great document known as the bible but even that doesn't doesn't hold so our battle your your battle is greater than bringing people to christ they come to christ and then what you don't know the then what so this is this is why it's uh it's a very complex matter well that's why i am of so so comfortable with you with with my fellow american christian in making this fight for our mutual battles i wish the day is so good in america where we could just talk theology that would be great i'll listen to haydn in the morning talk theology in afternoon and be with my wife in the evening i can't think of a better life but until then i'm watching the greatest experiment on earth the last best hope of mankind get devoured by forces that hate both of us so this is the battle right now in my eyes thank you very much i want to uh i want to conclude i want to conclude by thanking john rose bush and the knicks and the reagan library for having us here john thank you what a wonderful wonderful venue it's in i want to thank our kla team terry your team is amazing and our sponsors and our sponsors make it possible for us to be on the radio so please take good care of them we're not being rude we're being led away but please join me in one round of applause again for dennis and allison [Music] [Applause] you

Channel: Jameson Serono

Views: 18,933

Rating: 4.8199053 out of 5

Keywords: Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ (Deity), Gospel, Yeshua, Salvation, The Gospel, Alistair Begg, Truth for Life, Dennis Prager, Hugh Hewitt

Id: UaFQ0YX61X0

Length: 86min 10sec (5170 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 28 2019