Ali's "Phantom Punch" - Why Liston took the dive!

he's been dead for 40 years but the mystery surrounding Sonny Liston's life as well as his death still fascinates boxing fans of all ages tonight a man who spent a quarter of a century digging in to the real story behind the alley Liston fights next on a special edition of Ralston reports and now Ralston reports with John Ralston welcome to Ralston reports it's been almost 50 years and Sonny Liston failed to come out for the seventh round of this heavyweight championship bout with Muhammad Ali and then was felled by a phantom punch in the main rematch but the fascination lives on did he take a dive in the second fight against Ali and if so why that's one of the questions answered or at least tried to be answered in Sonny Liston the real story behind the alley Liston fights joining me the man who spent a quarter of a century researching and writing Paul Gallen ders sir welcome to the program thanks for having me Johnny you know it says on the inside book jacket of this book the real story behind the Ali list and fights that you wrote this book for Sonny Liston why well it didn't start out that way in the late 70s I just realized that the man hadn't been done justice they was a great fighter and they're really only Muhammad Ali deserved to be in the same ring with him in terms of talent and ability and the closer I got to Sonny Liston the more I talked to people who knew him like the last couple of years before I finished this I started to get very emotional and I realized this is more for Sonny than it is for me I mean I considered a really good accomplishment on my part but Sonny deserves a lot better than he's got and that's why I wrote it for him you know it's interesting that you say that because there is an amazing amount of research in this book you clearly took a long time to do what you wanted to do it right you wanted to do it to give as you say justice to Sonny Liston on the other hand this is an unvarnished portrait of the man this is not a gauzy hagiographic biography I mean this is the man warts and all in this book well yeah and Sonny was no saint and there were a lot of things that he did that were not particularly good and I'm sure he felt bad when he did them but he evidently had no control over particularly when he had been drinking when Sonny was drinking it brought out the best of him just like it brings out the excuse me the worst in him just like it brings out the worst in anybody who does go excessive drinking and he did some things which are unconscionable but the the two of the main things that I want to do to put forward in this book are that one that the results of the two ollie list and fights had far more to do with what took place outside of the ring that in it and second that Sonny Liston was no less than the second best heavyweight of all time the other thing was that Sonny Liston is very misunderstood and what the world knows about Sonny has very little basis in fact second best of all time to ally in your opinion I think he was more talented than Muhammad Ali I can make that case but yeah I don't see anybody standing up to the man over a 15-round fight if you if he was in shape and he weren't and he wasn't injured in spite of the fact that in the 1960s he was already innocent he was already in his 40s yeah exactly he was older when I leave from fighting people people you know he was almost twice Muhammad Ali Zeidan she was probably twice mama always is I think he was probably born in 1919 now I wanted to talk about each of those fights because there's a lot of myth making that you try to bring the truth to in this book but as I read the early parts of this book and Sonny Liston had a tough childhood and he went to prison for a while and you described him in ways it sounded like he was almost and this may be a stretch and you can walk me back in this animalistic in the way that my Tyson was described early in his career you see any analogy there at all well yeah I think sunny probably overcompensated he had a lot of anger in him and he was he really resented when people treated him badly when they made fun of him because he he mispronounced a lot of words he was not a literate man but he was a smart yeah you talk about how smart you think he was I don't know even though he wasn't very well educated wasn't very articulate spelled things wrong said things wrong former light heavyweight champion journalist Jose Torre said he had never met a professional athlete who was more intelligent than Sonny Liston well when you can't read and you can't write there really is no way to measure your intelligence but he took it out on a lot of people he did and he knew he could get away with it but a lot of the times that he would scare people to death he did it just because he knew he could just because that was fun for him you talk about his sense of humor in the book too and I think that's one of the things you think was misunderstood he just he liked screwing with people he liked screwing with people like the the great sports writer Liebling and and there's a very vivid scene that you describe in the book when he takes out a gun and the guy hides behind him right and and leave Lee said he Sonny shot a blank filled pistol at Joe pallino who was standing behind enfeebling and Liebling fell backwards spilled his tea and he later admitted to Harold Conrad the publicist on the ride back to Chicago said he had believed all the stories were true about Sonny because of his his prison record so he actually thought the gun was loaded he thought Sonny might be crazy and he wasn't the only one as you as you as you point out in the book what do you think as you were doing your research you said you wrote it for Sonny you said he he was misunderstood what is the the the single biggest myth that's out there about Sonny Liston and when people read this they'll say wow that's not true about him well it's got to be the Ali rematch in Lewiston Maine because Sonny when Sonny went down and did it in such a bad way I mean if you were going to throw a fight most people thought why would you why would you look that badly and we have that up now we have some footage from that go ahead yeah and at the time every person involved in boxing knew Sonny had taken a dive and they were they were nauseated by it they just didn't know why he died but now with probably fifty percent of the population that was born 1960 or after all that they know about Sonny is that iconic photo of Sonny lying on the ground that that was Leo lifer talk of Sonny with a very ferocious looking Muhammad Ali standing over him a very unchristian characteristic we ferocious-looking Ali because Aileen knew that he hadn't punched him hard enough for him to go down he was screaming him get up you yellow bum nobody will believe this once when Ali walked back to his corner he told his corner man he laid down so people base their opinion of Sonny's ability on the two Ali fights and particularly on the second fight and what I want to know based on that logic why isn't Muhammad Ali evaluated solely on his really miserable performances against Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick who were nowhere near the fighters that Muhammad Ali was even back in 1964 so but it wasn't as bad as that I mean listen I'm not a boxing aficionado but I'm certainly a boxing fan I've been to plenty of matches I've seen that in that infamous phantom punch that looks like a dive you're saying it wasn't a dive no it was it that was it oh it was a dive Sonny took the first opportunity he could to go down because um so what's the myth that's not understood about that why he took the dive well people didn't know why I mean there are people who like Ali biographers today who say oh no that was a valid punch Gene Kilroy says oh no he knocks on you Liston down and out well people say that because they either want to build up ally or tear down sunrise but the fact is that Sonny Liston's wife and child were being held against their will they were kidnapped by the black Muslims who told Sonny if you want to see them again you have to lose this fight this is an amazing story and you're telling the book we have to take a break won't want to come back let's talk more about that and we'll talk about the what really is a tragic story of Sonny Liston stick around have a question or comment you can email John Ralston reports at gmail.com and now walleston reports welcome back across Nevada to Ralston report for taking the departure and a pleasant departure away from politics tonight to talk about something that has mystified boxing fans for many many decades and that's the life and death of the great Sonny Liston Paul Gallen door works we're in a quarter of a century to get the truth out in a new book that's called Sonny Liston the real story behind the Ahly Liston fights lemon retail about because we were Todd's star to talk about the second fight anyway I get to that right away but you started talking about it's really interesting a number of theories have been floated about that second fighters you know listen was in debt to the Mafia through the fight to pay it off he was afraid black Muslim extremists angered Riley over a falling-out with Malcolm X might kill him by a mistake but sports writers like Tex model of Sports Illustrated Lou Eisen and others are certain the one punch in question was more than enough to take out Liston who was older and out of shape this is from Time magazine in his cover story in the June 7th 1965 issue of si that Sports Illustrated for example Maul wrote the quote the knockout punch itself was strong with amazing speed the differentiates clay as it was still called Cassius Clay than by most in the media from any other heavyweight he leaned away from one of Liston's ponderous pawing left jabs planted his left foot solidly and whipped his right hand over Liston's left arm into the side of Liston's jaw the blow had so much force it lifted left Liston's left foot pound which most of his weight was resting well off the canvas quote he knocked out big Sonny Liston the magazine asserted else were in the same issue quote with a punch so marvelously fast excuse me that almost no one believed it in but it was hard and true you're chuckling yeah tech small was a mean-spirited person and basically nobody liked him but that article he said there was no doubt absolutely that Sonny had been knocked out Muhammad Ali was not a puncher I remember when I talked to Eddie Futch the great trainer he was talking about their fighting he says Ali was not a puncher please believe me I I have got on tape Ali was not a puncher and I know he was anyone who's watched Ali knows that's what it's not what he was known for he was pulling back he was on his toes and it was a six inch punch now a six inch punch properly situated from a good fighter like Sonny Liston who could knock somebody down but Sonny dropped is his left hand and he was inviting to punch the backdrop prior to Sonny's wife and son being kidnapped was that yes Malcolm X had been assassinated and Elijah Muhammad had had really broken from Malcolm X Ali was very close to Malcolm X but he sided with Elijah Muhammad when Malcolm got assassinated that very night there was a fire in Ali's apartment and his wife at the time thought that they the Muslims were sending a clear message to Ali that he should not get out of line there is so much information in terms of the fear that was palpable about the assassination rumors both in Boston and then unloosed in mainland the fight that moved that that Muslims that were loyal to Malcolm were coming to Maine to assassinate Ali and sunny believed him Ali believed him and there's a lot of quotes in the book out of their own mouths obviously that that support that and there are a couple of quotes as Sonny said to reporter said well what's there for me to worry about they're coming to get him and then shortly after that Sonny says they're coming to get him not me right so Sonny was he was he was afraid of he couldn't understand Muslims and he was afraid of crazy people and he thought Ali and he thought Muslims in general crazy because he just couldn't understand them the real tragedy was that the originally scheduled rematch was set for November 16th 1964 in Boston and Sonny was in the best shape of his life Ali got the hernia three days before on Friday the 13th and that effectively ended Sonny's chances because here's a 45 year old man who had worked and worked and worked and there are rumors which I don't believe that that that the party it was faked because all of the Muslims says this guy's in such great shape he's gonna kill you but how are you so sure that your version of what happened in that second fight is true that that Liston did that because he was in fear for the lives of his family how are you so sure well I talked to a woman who was close friends with both the listings and the Lewises and she couldn't find a Geraldine she was very close to Geraldine on it that Sonny's wife in case people oh no but excuse me yeah they were very close and and she was up with her husband and her daughter up in in Lewiston Maine and on the day of the fight she couldn't get in touch with Geraldine and she was worried about it so she says to Martha Lewis Joe's wife Martha I'm worried I can't find Geraldine you know what could be one she's not picking up her phone and and so Martha says well Marilyn the black Muslims have her and the boy and Sunny's got to lose the fight if he wants to see them again is that first-hand information no but that's about as close as you can get because what happened I'm certain is that sunny told Jo loose because they were very close jota's wife and and Martha told Maryland all right we're going to take a break we're going to talk more about the life and death of the great Sonny Liston Paul Gallen there's a new book out it's worth a read the amazing amount of research some great vignettes stick around stay up-to-date on upcoming programs and join the discussion on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash walleston reports and now losting reports welcome back across Nevada to this special edition of Ralston reports I'd like to talk a lot about the brutality of politics on this program but the brutality of boxing is really something else in the brutality in the life of Sonny Liston has been documented by Paul Gallen Durden working more than a quarter century to get the research for his book Sonny Liston the real story behind the alley Liston fights I want to go back to some of the stuff early on in the book in your physical description of Liston is like this guy with this got gigantic hands and you understand why he would have been so powerful not not only the descriptions of how he moved in the ring and all but these hands that it was almost frightening to think about well as you described he had these mammoth hands right everybody who ever met him in person that's the first thing they tell me his hands they couldn't believe it I had if somebody say to me I saw his hand ripped it was just before a fight because his father was the ringside physician taking his vitals he said it occurred to me that if he hit me in the face he would hit me in my entire face the man was born to be a fighter with the perfect fighter's body the perfect fighters temperament and unfortunately a perfect fighters uproar I didn't have the perfect fighters temperament in the sense that you talk a lot about how when he fought angry he did not fight as well as well as he should have it's like what they just used to say the absolute what they used to say about John McEnroe in tennis when he got angry he played better when when a fighter gets angry they start flailing they punched too hard right that happened to him in several fights what happened to him in the 80 machen fight right Eddie machen actually kissed him on the neck that really inferior sunny it happened and it happened in the first Ally fight the only fighter I know that fought that could fight angry and infuriated it was Muhammad Ali because he thought that both Floyd Patterson and Ernie tiller Tyrell hadn't had insulted him because they wouldn't call him by his by his new name and they demeaned his religion and he went into the ring and he wanted to inflict some serious damage but he was very very poised right you don't want to fight on a street fight it is something if you fight angry yeah it's better what's interesting about this book and it really sells it short I think the real story behind Ali listing fights you tell in great detail about the incredible corruption of boxing early and Liston's career especially the congressional hearings the influence of the mob and how he was essentially tainted by that for his entire cramming I used the word earlier tragic story of Sonny Liston I mean the associations with nefarious characters the bad luck that he had in timing of some of these fights and it really is a tragic story yeah and Sonny caught the brunt of the mob associations because the most important individual title in all of sports was a heavyweight championship the mob ran boxing through the 30s the 40s and much of the 50s mainly because they had control over the managers managers could not get a fight a big-name fight for their fighter unless they paid off these guys and promised to cut them in on their purse on part of the the fighters contract if that fighter was to win the title so along with Jim Norris who owned all of the arenas yeah they pretty much dictated what went on it at the higher levels not only dictated who had what managers would be in playing woman but they dictated the outcomes of fights right well yeah in especially in the 30s and the 40s and some in the 50s and some times they drugged somebody's water like Carol Johnson took a lot of flak he put up such a bad performance he's a great fighter al a heavyweight fighter Harold Johnson somebody tainted his water Carol Johnson was much too proud of a man to throw a fight he wouldn't have thrown a fight but he had no control over that but listen never really got past and I think this must have haunted him personally to the cloud of having been a convict having been having the mob influence having cops who just did not trust him and hated him it was a constant problem for him right oh yeah there was like a silent police Telegraph that went from one city to another wherever Sonny moved I mean he got stopped twenty-five days in a row in Denver and he loved Denver by the same two cops an aspiring party said that they thought it was a joke he said it made him ashamed to be from Denver but the press hated him because Sonny Sonny did not like to talk used to say I don't talk to my wife why would I talk to a man and they would keep repeating the same old questions they would never get past the fact that he was an ex-con so Sonny really he just he did what he knew he had to do he would answer as few questions as possible and that treatment even turn african-americans against right that isn't that is another sad part of the story they tell let's take another break as with all stories especially stories with boxers there's a Vegas angle I want to talk about the Vegas connection to Sonny Liston and his death last Paul Gallen about that when we return find archived programs by going online 2-3 calm and clicking on walleston reports welcome back across Nevada to Ralston reports how nice to take a break from politics and talk about real life the real tragic life of Sonny Liston there's a new book out and we have the author right here on Ralston reports talking about it of course there's always a connection to Vegas and Sonny Liston spent time in Las Vegas was very close to a guy named ash Resnick whose daughter I have to say is the producer of this program I think she has a connection to every story in Vegas too but as Resnick is a guy I wish I had met because he sounds like just a fascinating character and he was very close to Sonny Liston yeah he was when Sonny came out here he spent a lot of time with ash ash got him to buy the Kirkuk lorian's house in the development that they lived in and before that everybody was real friendly in that development to the Resnick's but they didn't like the fact that a black family had moved there right and they and they thought well now that there's Sonny Liston is moving here what's next Joe Lewis and in fact Joe Lewis did move in there after that I had the pleasure of talking to ash a couple of times and he was when an athlete came to Las Vegas in in 60s and the 70s and the 80s I guess you would find them around ash Oh former athlete himself he was a professional basketball player he loved he loved athletics he loved he loves sports he was essentially I mean we talked about these fights that took place in Maine think about that today talk about a fight ash Resnick helped really to bring boxing to Las Vegas yeah he promoted the first heavyweight championship fight here and I something like 19 or 20 big fights that he promoted here so he was yeah he was a real big figure in Las Vegas and like I said it was it was a pleasure talking to him he was like an uncle to me and of course he was close to Harry Reid and a lot of other folks as I said I wish I had met as Resnick talk about the end of Sonny Liston's a life and how he died and some to some extent the mystery in the myth-making around that - what's really unfortunate is that apart from the lewiston fight and what happened in that what people want to know about what was Sonny Liston kill what happened well that was never a priority of mine what I did do is address all of the various rumors there are like four major rumors as to why somebody might have killed Sonny Liston real quickly we're running out of time don't tell me what well you know what you think what what I concluded that he that he had suffered a heart attack because he had been in a hospital in December of the year that he died he died in late December his body was found about a week later in early January when his wife came home and so he did have heart problems he was doing drugs I don't think he was shooting them because he hated needles and when you're in really good shape and you do drugs I think it has a more difficult effect on your body right the fact that he was there for so long and nobody reported his death I think leads to enhances the rumors that somebody may have killed Sonny somebody may have killed him but there's no statute of limitations on murder and frankly I don't I think if if somebody did kill Sonny he probably wasn't surprised by it why would they've killed was he he was involved in a drug trade and there was evidently a big drug raid that he had been warned about through the sheriff Warren lamb banker just tell your friend Sonny to stay with nothing better in Lund banker and gay people don't know who LM bankers well we're actually out of time mr. Galanter the amazing amount of research in this book Sonny Liston the real story behind the Ali Liston fight to have to tell you even if you're not a big boxing fan the human story in here is really something you've told it marvelously why'd you say one thing we're out of time we're out I'm sorry thanks for coming on the program on the next Rossum reports more of the issues that matter to you from people in the know thanks for watching

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Rating: 3.7237353 out of 5

Keywords: Sonny Liston - Ali fight, Paul, Phantom Punch, Muhammad Ali (boxer), book, Lewiston, Heavyweight Championship fight, Cassius Clay, boxing, Sonny Liston (Boxer)

Id: CBOzv45vNxA

Length: 23min 7sec (1387 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 21 2013