ALCATRAZ Bill Baker, #1259AZ, former prisoner returns to 'the Rock'

this is your lucky day we are so fortunate to have folks come back to this island and help tell their stories this is what you came for and how lucky are we that we actually have the voices here that you can hear yourselves take photos of and maybe get the real story I don't know I have got my friend here mr. William Baker also known as AZ one two five nine and he'll be speaking with you all in just a little bit this this is a fifty-four years ago that picture was taken 55 years ago somewhere around there and in just a moment we're gonna and we're gonna hear from from mr. Baker himself about his road to Alcatraz what he's been up to and what the future holds anyway I'm real Bakersfield Baker former freezer from Alcatraz and such they tell me I'm gonna endanger species almost 16 anyway I came to Alcatraz for escaping from other prisons this is where they said people for misbehaving in other prisons sent you here for attitude adjustment we're containment if you were an escape risk or maybe run for a timeout you know what a timeout is [Laughter] I remember the first time I went to the yard when I first arrived here in 1957 I went to the yard I was pumped up ready to fight or run you know what I mean I've heard some bad stories about this place so I went the yard I was ready my gentleman was working and I went out there walked around nobody paid no attention to me there playing cards or playing ball or played all kinds of games there walking up and down talking you up and playing musical instruments up one thing and pulling the bleachers some of them painting up there painting the Golden Gate Bridge I said whop he's all gone nobody paid no attention to me sighing collie deflating you know what I mean Here I am pumped up ready to fight or run and nobody paying no attention to me so my conclusion at that time was that maybe these guys weren't so tough after all you know I was wrong I didn't know what tough people really were there was some very mean people here some very mean guys some bad boys the real bad boys don't walk around I don't understand a lot of noise we're talking out of the side of their mouth like Hollywood gangsters I learned that in the long run at that time I really didn't know but I found out in the long run that for example the most dangerous man here was named tsimko most dangerous man has ever walked that yard he was young he was handsome he had a six-pack belly did push-up standing on his head look like a college student he killed the guys out on the shower room they took him to court the guard was looking right at him when he killed him stabbed him many times with a knife guard testified against him in court the jury over in San Francisco the jury said not guilty said what was that kid doing in there with all those monsters to begin with and here we get into public perception because the public believed that people here were monsters and therefore that kid was in here with all these monsters this was public perception sir he said not guilty if he did kill the guy it must have been in self-defense to keep from being eaten alive or raped or no telling what what was he doing in there with those monsters so anyway tsimko as I am CEO X was his name you can look him up on the Internet most dangerous man here he was also the Politis most respectful man here I played cards with him any times on the yard talk to him he had nothing to fear from him ever unless he got right up in his face and disrespected him and then you were history but they see an example of the prisoners here at Alcatraz who were very respectful of each other you had nothing to fear you didn't have you didn't have to watch your back go into eating the vessel as many people believe this is probably the safest prison in the whole world and that's the truth I never had any trouble here my whole bit well listen that's not exactly true had some minor trouble a few times the guys who wanted to get are at me invest me and hit the shoulder and busted the guitar against but that's another story hey I'm talking about the house of trash convict the average Alcatraz convict when I first went the yard I looked at him playing bridge over there though I didn't know what they were playing then they were holding their cards they looked like dominoes they were shaped like dominoes made out of plastic or ivory or something that's possible I'm like dominoes but they were real cards you use them as cards because out on that yard there's always a wind blowing and it's wet foggy you know what I mean don't rain but it's went from the fog and the wind blows and then you can't use regular playing card so in the yard so they had a special Domino's type cards made up or he could shuffle on the table and put them in little wooden holders and they were playing I walked around looked at him I said what do they play and he said they're playing bridge though hope you don't go on a bunch of raggedy convicts playing bridge another Michigan's misconception yeah I said I can't believe this but that was the main game here bridge nut dirty hearts not spades or some simpler game that was played in other prisons average game the most popular game here was bridged which is a very complicated game took me two years before that he would beat anybody they were good I mean they were really good so it tells you something about the Alcatraz prisoner the Alcatraz prisoner they were they were tested back then with the IQ tests which they don't do anymore but everyone was tested back then in the schools and everywhere the average I average IQ of the Alcatraz prisoner was higher than the national average believe it or not it was they tested them we were some of the smartest dumbest people in the world here [Laughter] you could be voted smartest dumbest people in the world right here but it goes to show you there's a difference in public perception of what it really was people here were respectful of each other because there were so many genuine bad guys here you know what I mean if I got an atomic bomb and you got an atomic bomb or not gonna drop it we're not gonna mess with that guy we're going to respect him and that's what they did here they respected each other there was very little trouble this was the safest prison in the world guarantee you that you never had to fear for anything here there were no gangs there were no drugs there was only about 250 prisoners here most people do most people everybody had a single cell so we had nothing to fight over there was no store here you couldn't buy anything if you had all the money in the world so what was there to fight over we didn't possess anything we got a Christmas bag once a year that was the most valuable possession we ever had it was about this big if this doll had some candy hard candy in some bars a candy and some nuts and fruits and maybe some cigars or some packs of cigarettes the most valuable possession that we ever had and July long long before they passed it out in Christmas and you live people started buying each other's candy you know each other's Christmas bag or they started gambling betting on the ball games some guys sold the same Christmas bag about 10 times Christmas coming around it Pence out the bags eat it real quick started throwing the stuff out of yourself that was a way of checking in the hole you checked in get out of town for a few months you know what I mean but seriously guys who works in the factory they had a factory down there there's about it employed over half the people here federal prison industries ran the factory they had a contract with the military to make all kinds of stuff I worked in the glove shop we made white cotton gloves for the military other people works in the laundry and a huge laundry that then all the laundry for the military installations in the area not that employed a whole bunch of people there were some bad boys here but they were very respectful of each other as I said we had very little trouble here but when there was trouble it was often very serious and that's one reason there was very little trouble here because the consequences could be very great anyway I'm going to open it up for questions now you ask any question you want I'll answer any questions you got oh oh yes I learned a new trade here I learned how to do counterfeit payroll checks it sounded good at the time yeah I learned it from a guy who really do it well name Courtney Taylor he taught me and I was pretty proud of it but if I have any reverence said I remember he told me one day he's walking yard he said so he I told him I'll learn to do trees counterfeit payroll checks he said I know okay he said but you learn it from who I say Courtney Taylor he says he's good alright he said but he said here I said yeah so he said he got caught I won't get caught I'll do it different than he did I'll learn from his mistakes and I won't wake those Sammer's in his face of course their holes were pretty optimistic as a whole you know what I mean we think that you know we won't make those same mistakes and we didn't I didn't I just made different ones when did I retire in 2011 when I got out of prison the last time I said I gotta quit now I was 78 years old I quit I had to write this book and I couldn't write it and be on a run so I quit I wrote the book got sent a copy out here the head Ranger and he sent me a plane ticket and I said wow so I came all out here and fortunately the book turned out good and I now have a house a car a wife and a dog and I'm okay yeah there were many changes first of all Alcatraz was different than any other prison this will lock down prison so you didn't see the changes here and it closed long after the changes went into effect but they're in the 10 to the years when Kennedy was president and his brother was Attorney General and all that rehabilitation was the buzz words in all prisons those were the best years of prison life back then because they had all kinds of programs they had all kinds of well for example Leavenworth which was the granddaddy of all prisons of all federal prisons back then Leavenworth had a big school they built a new school they turned the old school into a baton program they had many many rooms and everybody had a their own bathroom we had thousands and thousands of dollars worth of equipment those were the good years food was good money was good they all prisons got good money back to then the factories were working full blast prisoners made some good money working in the factories I know a lot of there were a lot of Mexicans for example who worked in the factory who actually sent home and sent home money back down to Mexico who made enough money to help support their their families down there and things sort of changing when they started realizing that rehabilitation was not working and I think they had a point because rehabilitation never worked and one of the main reasons for that was how can you depend on how could you expect prison staff and prison guards to put their heart into rehabilitating someone when it was against their best interest to do that their best interest of them and their family and their cats and dogs was that the prison's keep building and keep getting more prisoners and I used to read their magazine that they put out the guards magazine in the morning Monday morning highlights they celebrated when a prison a new prison opened because the captain here got a promotion center the new prison he was associate warden sergeant here got promoted he was a captain and then everybody below him got promoted and so it was a great day for prison staff and wardens and everybody when they built the new prisons so how can you expect those people to put their heart into rehabilitating people you know how can you do that you can I know I went through it and their excuse was you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink that was what they said so this here is here if they want it they have to want it and that makes sense yeah that's works I have a problem with this my answer to that is it's their job to lead a horse to water and make a drink that's our job but I know from personal experience that they could actually put their heart into that so anyways now the official policy of prisons today federal prisons is we provide a safe and humane environment for prisoners to do their time that is the official policy now rehabilitation efforts are dead they no longer even they don't want to even talk about it yeah well first of all they made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I'm happy with it but I finished my book I sent it back out here like I said I'm the head Ranger read it and sent me a plane ticket and I came out here with high expectations and excitement actually if maybe I could be a success as an author and I saw the situation here they made me an offer I couldn't refuse and Here I am four years later I got a house a car or wife and a dog so I'm okay I never did first of all most guys here almost everybody came here from another prison for breaking rules we were a bunch of hard-headed convicts before we came here you understand we had been in the hole many times broke a lot of rules so we were not intimidated by this place it was not a good place it was a bad place where we were bad boys and we could handle it and we did handle it so I did not leave here with scars or nightmares I left here like everybody else with the exception of a few I left here to go rob a bank or cash their hot checks or something like that that was our expectation that's what we look forward to and we look forward to it with enthusiasm yes and so that's what it was like okay that's a I've got a long answer for that because the food was a subject of great concern here they only had about 250 men to feed and they had all the money in the world to do it this prison was high priority as far as funds were concerned and the federal prison system was small in those days and they had lots of money but the food was great not because they loved us believe me the food was great for one reason because the guards there were so few there were so many of them and so few prisoners that they only cook one meal the guards of the prisoners ate the same food so it had to be good also the first warden warden johnson stated Anna newspaper article in the Bay Area that most trouble in prison is caused by bad foods therefore I'm feeding him good he did not want a prison riot he did not want a food strike especially because there were some bad boys and if they had a food strike they would probably win it there were people here who knew how to do a food strike they were in other prisons and did a food strike got sent here for that so he did not want a food strike there was no store here no commissary you couldn't buy anything extra all you got was what you got out of that mess all and nothing actually other prisons and the United States all prisons had a commissary you could buy like peanut butter crackers and this and this and that some soups and stuff and make your own meals she didn't like what was in the vessel they had factories here they paid you money you could buy it if you had a commissary to buy from if they had no store so the food had to be good it was the only way you were going to eat is what you got in that mess off that's the reason for it 18 I went to prison in Oregon for stealing a car when I was 18 I started escaping there we rent a boxcar through the rear gate and later escapes again and they sent me here when I was 23 for escaping the big change where I got rehabilitated and changed my ways or whatever you want to call it the big change was when I published that book and when I decided to quit and write the book actually I guess that was a change but it wasn't a moral commitment it wasn't religious it wasn't anything except I got old I was 78 when I got out of prison last time and I said this was my last chance to write that book I'm gonna write it I've been writing for many years in prison mostly cowboy stories or stuff that the staff the prison staff would let you write as long as it wasn't critical of the prison so I had to write this book out of prison and so I wrote it and so the big change was that my book was successful and I don't have to do what I did before again I don't have to do it anymore I'm making enough money and it's exciting and it's a it replaces the need for excitement it replaces a need for money it replaces a need for whatever that was that drove me to be a criminal when I was a criminal now I got cashed a lot of checks and I worked just as hard as I do now signing this book and in my days are 13 hours a day this replaced all of that so I don't even think about it anymore so that was a big change it was neither moral nor my book had not been successful and they'd still be out cash now checks who knows what about escapes [Music] okay okay Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers over getting that earring for Jenny never forget he was here when I was here he died out in the bay he's a good friend of mine but I know your aunt interests must be in the Anglin brothers and Frank Wars because that's the great mystery errant Brigade has no history anymore he died but Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers it took them over a year to plan and execute that escape they did some amazing things everything had to work just perfectly they gathered materials from here and there to dig a hole in the back of their cells widen the vent so that they could fit through it so they get up through the pipe quarter up to the top of the building and spread those bars and get out of the building it took them some real genuine scheming to do that they did what has been said they did they widen the hole in the back of their cell they went up through the pipe quarter and out the roof and down the water you can't tell me then they got to the water and said what do we do now they knew what they were doing they were very quiet about it this is the main my main point is that they didn't let the guard to know about it but also they didn't let the stitches know about it because anytime you have desperate man you have snitches even here so if they are out today you can bet they won't be enough San Francisco water blinking about it that's a fact we would not know about it my opinion though was is and always has been whether they made it or not they did leave the prison alive and they didn't come back if they died they died free and I'm beginning to lean towards I believe they did make it I believe that some of the stories were fear nonsense about where they might be for example the angular brothers their family is now saying we got pictures from them on a ranch down in Brazil to prove my point they were in prison studying Spanish a little weird they don't speak Spanish in Brazil they speak Portuguese who knows but every way the stories are a little bit cockeyed but I do believe that they they may have made it and they may be free I did yes I did think of escaping from here many times but I couldn't figure out how to beat the water the water kills you because it's cold and there's no getting around that that ain't nothing you can do about it I know there are people swimming it today kids are swimming it dogs are swimming it everybody swimming it but they practice over in the water in the bay until their body becomes accustomed to the cold and then they put on wetsuits and they got a voter book riding beside them and they're swimming it today but back then we didn't have the luxury of all that so and I was about 23 years old six foot tall weighed about 150 pounds so I was a beanpole I was skinny and skinny people don't do well in cold water need a little more fat on you that's question yes of course forget forget was a young guy Strong's of you swim like a fish but the water was a real problem because no matter who you are if you're not used to the water you cannot handle it for more than maybe 45 minutes and Jesus a guy a trained person cannot swim in that Lake the time from here to San Francisco so he tried to solve that problem by making himself some water wings out of plastic bags and I used to help him when he were done in the glove shop where he works we worked together down there they used to fill a plastic bag bow it up with Aron's and sink it in the mop sink to see if it would float and see if the air would stay in it and that all worked real good so in order to defeat the cold water he put on a lot of extra clothing to insulate himself against the cold the problem came when he got in the water and the water wings broke and that water soaked into all those extra clothing and took it straight to the bottom so it doesn't work for the good yes that's a good question but for me probably not because I really had had it in my boy you don't understand I was a criminal the excitement the danger attracted me and I was wild you know I mean I was crazy to be honest with you I was also lazy when I was young so laziness does not lend itself to success of any kind and either the arts or anything else and if my boss at the gloves shop used to he wrote a report one day I was sword white cotton gloves and I sold one every once in a while and half the time they'd be messed up if sinneth back I saw over again he wrote a report on me I read it and said this is the laziest man I have ever seen yeah and I just didn't see much point in sewing white cotton gloves certainly wouldn't benefit me any I worked down there because they gave extra good time factory good time working in the factory there could cut your time in half when added to the good time you're already getting so that's it besides that most people worked because that's the only way to get out of your cell was to have a job yes during Alcatraz year and how much did we get paid working in the factory we got paid about I think it was 25 cents for a box of gloves that took a normal person about an hour to do so maybe 25 to 50 cents an hour for the same job on the streets that would be three four five dollars an hour back in those days that was pretty good money but we made a small fraction of that and what federal prison industries made millions of dollars so I just added that for ya well it's a couple of times I did it when I was in other prisons but when I got here only had three years left on the sentence and I really loved to escape but I'm not suicidal so with three years left it would have to be a pretty good plan to attract me as far as if they had a boat out there they come pick me up I don't work I went for that of course yes I for one it was very hopeful that he would make it he was a great guy even though he was a bank robber he lied about that a little bit he was actually a post office robbery said he was a bank robber but he was still a great guy and for Penny's days we didn't know what happened to it of course he sucks and his body didn't raise until about 10 days later and then that's when they found him but we were locked up in our cell for all that time we never got out of her cell except to eat so of course we were hopeful yes Al Capone was not here at that time he had already left he'd already died in fact but even Al Capone he didn't have he didn't do well here he was sick most of his time he was in and out of the hospital when I was here the Birdman was here I bumped into him a few times up in the hospital and also sleepy carpus whitey bulger Frank Morris a key : a whole bunch of but not Capone you were not allowed out of your cell if there was an escape no not until they either found him or or the cows came home whatever the longest stretch of time I did in prison or six years and eight months and the South Dakota State Prison for escape from jail and kidnapping the cop [Music] I don't remember ever specifically I remember a few of the guards but not having particular but I don't have a problem with the guards now they were professional they got paid well they were hand-picked most of them and I don't have any problem with professionals because a professional you know what to expect from them and you know how to deal with it it's those few guards that were not professional who went outside the book that were caused the problems here now there were some young guards that came in for example from a youth prison that they go to shake down a cell now the professional guards when he shook down a cell he wouldn't mess with a little petty stuff you know what I mean if your bed wasn't made just right so what he wouldn't mess with it if you had a few extra packs of cigarettes in your cell okay if you had a hacksaw blade he was bust you or a knife or something like that but the young guards the ones that just came here often they would write you a disciplinary report for you know stuff like you're betting may write oh whatever you know trying to make brownie points and they there was one guy here that I had a problem with it he must have written hundreds of disciplinary reports on people so many that the other guards even discounted many of appeal the captain Heathrow Hawaii before they ever went to court [Music] [Music] [Music] you

Channel: Alcatraz the Rock

Views: 187,364

Keywords: Frank Morris, Anglin brothers, 'Machine-Gun Kelly', Alcatraz Escapes, Alcatraz Prisoner, Alcatraz Prison, 'Birdman of Alcatraz', Federal Prisons, U.S. Bureau of Prisons, Alcatraz, the Rock, san francisco, alcatraz history, alcatraz island, bill baker, bill baker 1259, prison escapes, Forest Tucker

Id: nlm-xkaALHc

Length: 41min 34sec (2494 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 11 2018