[MUSIC PLAYING] MEGAN GREEN: Hi. Welcome to talks at Google. I'm Megan. Aggie Gund is an American
philanthropist, art patron, collector, and advocate
for arts education. She's president emerita of
the Museum of Modern Art and chairman of its
International Council. She's also chair
emerita of MoMA PS1. In 2017, Gund founded
the Art For Justice Fund to support criminal
justice reform in the US. And her daughter Catherine
Gund is founder and director of Aubin Pictures. She's an Emmy-nominated
producer, director, writer, and activist. Her media work focuses on
strategic and sustainable social transformation,
racial justice, LGBT rights, arts and culture, HIV/AIDS
and reproductive justice, and the environment. Today we're here
to discuss "Aggie," a feature-length
documentary that explores the nexus of art, race,
and justice through the story of art collector and
philanthropist Aggie Gund's life. In this film, Catherine
focuses on her mother's journey to give viewers an understanding
of the power of art to transform consciousness
and inspire social change. Let's roll the trailer. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] - Mom. - Yeah? - What do you think? The movie? - I think the movie is great. Which movie are
you talking about? - Renowned philanthropist
and art collector Aggie Gund stunned the art world when
she sold "Masterpiece" by Roy Lichtenstein for
$165 million in July and used the proceeds to
start the Art For Justice Fund to combat mass incarceration. - We went to San Quentin. I had people come up to me
and say, what in the world did you want to do that for? I think the case that struck
me most was that of Eric Garner and that I can't breathe. I remember after he died I just
kept dreaming I can't breathe. - Aggie understands that
art makes it possible for us to have empathy, and
that without empathy, there is no justice. - You have conjoined
these two things, justice working through the arts. - I think of you as sort
of the ultimate empath, or somebody who really
feels other people. - Oh, that's wonderful. [UPBEAT MUSIC] - She laid bare
wealth and privilege. Most people who have it pretend
like they don't have it. And she said, I have this,
and I want it to go to work. I want it to be so much
bigger than one painting. - So I made questions today. - Why do you collect? - Have you ever cried
in front of an artwork? - Do you want any of your
grandchildren to be artists? - What is love? - Were you close
with your mother? - Why aren't you a
typical lady from Ohio? - How many of these
conversations have you done? - What do you think you're going
to do when you're grown up? - A giant question of life. - I heard you had sex with
every artist that you collect. Is that true? - Wouldn't that have been fun? [END PLAYBACK] MEGAN GREEN: Please welcome
Agnes and Catherine Gund. CATHERINE GUND: Hi, Megan. AGNES GUND: Hi. MEGAN GREEN: Hi. I'm so happy you're here. AGNES GUND: Well, thank you. CATHERINE GUND: Good to be here. MEGAN GREEN: Welcome
to Google, virtually. CATHERINE GUND: We wish we
could be there in person. MEGAN GREEN: Next
time, next time. So this is an amazing film. It opens with Aggie selling Roy
Lichtenstein's "Masterpiece"-- and it's actually
called "Masterpiece," and it is a masterpiece-- for $165 million to start
the Art For Justice Fund. And the proceeds
of this work, which was one of the highest-grossing
artworks ever sold, you took and used to start
this amazing organization to reform the American
criminal justice system. So this kind of is the crux
of the start of the movie. So can you tell us
about this decision? Why this piece? Why this cause? AGNES GUND: Well, I wanted-- I long felt that there wasn't
justice in the incarceration system. And I felt-- I went to a movie,
which I didn't want to go to, because I
thought it'd be too violent, of Ava DuVernay,
who had "The 13th." And I went with these
people that have since become close friends. And I was just overwhelmed
by how terrific it was. And I thought, these
people that are going to jail, many
of them for things that they wouldn't be going to
jail for if they were white, for nothing that was really
serious, and taking long terms and not being able to be
released because they didn't have the money to pay bail
and all kinds of things that pointed to a
very unjust system. And so I really wanted
to see justice redone. And I wanted to see them, these
people that were in there who I thought had probably much to
offer to people on the outside, to be brought to justice. And then the bigger thing
of justice in the way Blacks live is very, very apparent. And we've had many
illustrations of it. We had many before the movie
came out, but with the pinnacle being George Floyd. And I think this is the
reason that I've been really most concerned about justice. MEGAN GREEN: Wow. Well, I think that
movie's incredible, too, and an inspiration, and
everyone should watch it. And keeping on the
theme of justice, the theme of your philanthropy
isn't just generosity, which you are super
generous, but also justice. So what does justice
sort of mean to you? What would justice
look like today? AGNES GUND: Well, justice
would be a fair lifestyle for so many people that
live in this country and outside that
happen to be because of their color
second-class citizens or not given as much
attention and as much of a relationship
with other people as we've been
privileged to have. And so I thought
this topic was one that I really do care about. And I think it is on the brink
of being solved, in a way. I hope that our election
brings it to a better place. MEGAN GREEN: We'll see
in a couple of weeks. So I agree with all of those
sentiments about justice. And not to switch
gears, but a little bit, a lot of this movie, it
has a dual sort of message. One is justice and one is art
and how they meld together. But Aggie, you fell in love with
art as a high school student. And I loved watching
this background about you and how this became a passion. But I'd love to hear just
a little bit from you about your personal
history and how you got into art and collecting. AGNES GUND: Well, I
went away to school. And at the school, I
had a marvelous teacher that I've talked a lot about. So I would just say
that she was somebody that really I was very
close to when I was there or as were in a
teacher-student relationship. We weren't that close,
but we have the same ideas about seeing art. And she wanted me
to see a lot of art other than what I could
see through a class. And she tried to teach to
other things in the class. And I found out later when
I went to graduate school that that was the way that
it should be taught, that it should be taught on a
basis of a lot of access to the artworks themselves. So she said, go to the Phillips,
go to the Isabella Stewart Gardner, go to the Frick,
the Morgan, all of which I've been lucky enough
to visit a lot of times. And I really appreciate
those places very much, and the shows they
do are wonderful. CATHERINE GUND: I
do love that when you ask that question
on Aggie's growth into being a collector
and someone who sees the world through art
that she's done that by taking the time to be with art. So that it's not about a given
artist or one piece of art, but it's just about constantly
exposing yourself and taking the time and paying attention. I think that Aggie's always
told us to just pay attention, to really listen. I think her way of being
with art is about listening. So I love that her teacher,
who is really a mentor, we know how important
mentors are, that she helped Aggie know that
that was a way to spend time, that that was the way to begin. MEGAN GREEN: And
Cat, did that rub off on you, that philosophy
and a love for art? CATHERINE GUND: Well,
certainly the love for art. But I definitely
think that what I share is just the
idea that everything is art and everything
around me is art. And we make things and
our friends make things and we trade things. And I think what
really rubbed off was that Aggie prioritizes
her relationships with artists even over their art. Certainly over their art
and over the institutions like museums. That it's really about
what she can know and learn from other people. And I think both
of us enjoy really big, beautiful communities
that are made up primarily of artists, but
certainly of people who understand the power of art. MEGAN GREEN: And those
conversations, a lot of those are in the film, which
is so nice to sort of see that community come to life. And sort of in
that spirit, Aggie, you are recognized for your
robust support of artists, but particularly women and
people of color, which I think, again, is so relevant now and
relevant to all of your work. But how did you know that
to do that so long ago? This isn't new for you. So how did that sort
of happen for you? AGNES GUND: Well, I was lucky,
because I had access to-- I had a chance to go around,
and I was not tied to one place. I could move in between them
and I could travel abroad and things like that. So I could travel between
Cleveland, where I lived, and in Ohio, which is I
think a wonderful state. And hopefully they will win. I'm sorry to get [INAUDIBLE]. CATHERINE GUND: It is the most
important thing of our moment. You're right to keep
going back to voting. AGNES GUND: I could come to New
York and did come to New York and met many people that were
involved with art early on. I had lots of friends
that were in the art world and knew the art world. And they were my age, and
they've been wonderful people that I've known for many years. CATHERINE GUND: But
you always said to me that you would-- in
that environment, often, you would only
see the men, certainly white male artists, and
that you were always asking, where are the women,
which you say in the film. And where are other
people who are left out? Whose voices are missing? And I feel like that's actually
been a really solid throughline of Aggie's life is to say
who's not able to speak? Who's unheard? And that included
public school children, and that included
women artists, and that includes people in prison. And she's always sort of-- it's like her ear. It's like she's tuned to
wonder where they are. AGNES GUND: Well, we used
to be very free in Soho. Now, looking back on it
from this covid disease, it doesn't seem like it was
ever as lively as it was. But when we used to be
in Soho and going around when Soho was at its peak
and didn't have stores in it, we used to spend the
whole day just going-- besides lunch, because
we always had lunch, too. And we saw all these artists
and we talked to the dealers and to other people
looking at art. And it was a small group,
which doesn't seem small now. But it was a wonderful
group of art people. And some of the critics, like
some of these favorite people of others, were down there
as well as other people buying art. And it was just a
wonderful atmosphere, because it was all
very accessible. But it was before
the world had gotten to have loads of artists
and loads of patrons of art. CATHERINE GUND: So were
there women artists there at that time? AGNES GUND: No. MEGAN GREEN: How did
you find out about them? AGNES GUND: Very few
women, because most dealers didn't show women. Because they said to me
when I'd often ask them, I'd say, how come you
don't have any women? Women don't sell. I mean, it just doesn't. CATHERINE GUND: So how did
you get the early pieces by women artists that you have? Did you go to their studios? How did you know? How did you find
artists who weren't represented by that main? AGNES GUND: Well, I
had heard about them, but also I just went
and unearthed them if it was something that
interested me or was important. They might be famous. They weren't necessarily
all that way. But I tried to convince some of
the dealers to take more women, but as I said before, they
have all sorts of excuses. Mainly that they didn't sell. CATHERINE GUND: Didn't sell. Their value didn't increase. MEGAN GREEN: But that's
changed today a little bit. AGNES GUND: Well, it's
changed, as with Black artists, because now you see
many Black artists. We just have two
artists that we've bought pieces of
that we've given to the Museum of Modern Art that
are coming up for acquisition. And they're really
great paintings. CATHERINE GUND: But I think
that's really key, too, that I think a lot
of us don't realize who aren't in that museum system
is that Aggie has persistently over decades been, as she
just said, buying art, offering it to the museum,
who then has to decide if they accept it or not. AGNES GUND: Which in the
beginning they often didn't. CATHERINE GUND:
They often didn't. And so there are
more women and people of color represented in
the museums right now, but it's a long, slow road,
and it takes persistence. And she'll never say it, but
that's what she's been doing is bringing artists, bringing
artists, bringing attention to them, encouraging them
to be able to have shows, and introducing their
pieces into the collection and often giving
them the pieces. MEGAN GREEN: It's
a long road, and we are so happy that you started it
so early before it was trendy. Just to switch to the
film a little bit, Aggie, you say at the
beginning of the film, I hope this film won't be
seen by too many people. Is that really true? AGNES GUND: Well, I
really didn't mean it the way it sounds. It sounds terrible,
because I think Catherine did a very good
job of a difficult subject and not a subject that would
be of interest to many people. But she made it. It may be a little long. [LAUGHTER] But she made it
very interesting. And that wasn't me that
made it interesting. But like she got Jack Shear
to ask all the right questions and she gathered grandsons and
granddaughter to be in there. And that was fabulous. But she brought in people
that I really liked. There were many
more [INAUDIBLE].. CATHERINE GUND: Now
you can see maybe what the challenge was, the
central challenge of making this movie, which was
not, in fact, supposed to be a portrait of a
person, although it serves that purpose in obvious ways. But more to be about all of us
and how we become the person we are and what are the
elements and experiences we have that influence us
in that particular path. And I think I still wonder that. How did she become this person? And you asked,
and we don't know. It's not like she doesn't
know but you and I know. None of us really know. What makes you hold the
values that you believe in? Because even if you say
who you're voting for, we'll give all these reasons,
but those reasons only matter to you. And so I wanted to know
how she became someone who would do this incredibly
huge thing of selling this piece with the intention
of investing in the imagination to end mass incarceration. That's not something
somebody had done before. So I do think there are
things that she likes about the movie, which is good. Because you didn't always. AGNES GUND: I do like the
way the movie is done. CATHERINE GUND: But
it was hard to film. As you can see, she doesn't
like to be on camera. And so the central
challenge really was how do I make a
movie which is shining a light on someone who
part of their magic is that they don't like the
light being shined on them, because there's all these
obvious reasons traditionally it would get shined on her
and she doesn't want that. So I don't want to shine
it on her in a way, but how can you get away
from those great-- I mean, the conversations in
the car always crack me up, because there's so many
more that aren't in there. When I asked her if
she learned anything about herself while we
were making the movie, she said no, no. And I went to get out of the
car and she said, oh, wait, I did learn one thing. I learned that you
are very persistent. [LAUGHTER] AGNES GUND: [INAUDIBLE]
in making a film. CATHERINE GUND: It's true. It's all truth. MEGAN GREEN: And
Cat, did you learn anything about your
mother through the film? CATHERINE GUND: Well,
that's interesting, because I, being very sort
of analytical and meditative about lessons and whatnot
in my life in general, thought I'm going to
learn all these things. And then 3/4 of the way
through, I was like, oh, I guess I really
knew my mom really well, because I haven't
learned anything new. I knew all these things. I started thinking maybe she
was asking everybody questions instead of answering
questions just because she was trying to ruin the movie. That wasn't true. So I did learn about
her asking questions as a way of engaging
with the world as a way to address
her curiosity, her real deep curiosity. But then by the end of the film,
and I would say actually maybe even in the time since
we've been releasing it, and people have
been watching it, and I've been hearing
from people what they see, it does make me realize that
you can't know about your parent everything they were doing. As a child, you're supposed
to care about yourself. The world revolves around you,
and you want their attention to revolve around you. And so even though I knew
she'd done all these things, I think there is a way that I
just didn't fathom the amount. Not the quantity, but
the deep and vast quality of her interaction and how
she did that at the same time as raising four children. And because I'm trying to do
that and people in the film business say, oh, if we weren't
mothers, we'd have more time. We would have made more movies. We would have done
this and that. And I don't see it as a loss. I think that
everything she did she was able to do because
she was a mother, and that she wouldn't have
necessarily done more or better if she hadn't been a mother. She would have done
very different things, and the things she
did are influenced by or deeply impacted by that. MEGAN GREEN: Wow. So you had a reluctant subject
who's totally lovely, though. But Cat, what was
it like to make-- you've made a lot of
really interesting films on personal subjects. But this film is
particularly personal. So what was that process like? Even when you decided to do
it, did you say, oh, maybe I don't know. This is really exposing
my own family and myself. CATHERINE GUND: Well,
there are several parts of the answer to
that, because one, I would say that in the way that
I make movies, all of my films have been really personal to me. So I think that
we are co-creating the societies we
want to live in, that we are doing
the work together of creating these villages that
raise our children together. You can see how collaborative,
how long the credit list. We really work-- I work with people. And it's really the
process, I think, that is the most personal
and vulnerable-making. The end product of the film-- I mean, I guess I never
thought of it that we were exposing ourselves. I think of it as there's a life
and a community that I love and a world that I love. And you see it in the film
in these conversations. And I thought that having
these conversations, that Aggie being interviewed
by her friends and family instead of by me, would show
these different aspects of who Aggie is. And Raj Roy from the
Museum of Modern Art, who I was speaking to
last week about the movie, pointed out-- he's
also a mutual friend. He's in the film, and
he's a friend both of mine and of Aggie's. And he pointed out that
everyone who's in the film is also a friend of
mine and that he thought of the interlocutors
as being representative of different parts
of me and that that was my way of
interacting with Aggie. And I think that sort of
deeply embedded community and the things we share in
the ways that we're different made the film feel like, well,
if you know us, you know us. It's not like we were
hiding something. So I mean, sometimes I say
it's because I'm a Virgo. I can't lie anyway. So I don't think I'm trying
to create this world that's covering up something else. I think it's actually being
able to genuinely share the humanity that we all have
in common is worth doing. And what I want
people to realize, some people have beautifully
said about my mother, we need more Aggies
in the world. MEGAN GREEN: That is true. CATHERINE GUND: My friend who's
also in the film, Teresita Fernandez, the other day when
someone said that, she said, I am Aggie. And that is what I want
people to take away is that this isn't
about me and my family. And it's not about
Aggie and her biography. It's really about you. You are Aggie. And what part of that
are going to access? What part of your
ability to make change and to be most vibrantly
and fiercely involved in your own daily life and
the life of your community and the life of the world? I feel like it's gotten
very hard in covid, because we're just
so pushed down and so stripped of all of
our sort of, in many cases, people's basic needs of
not just housing and food, but of being able to work
and being able to socialize. And it, I think, causes
people to think about what really does matter, what
their bottom line purpose is, and what they're
going to do today. MEGAN GREEN: Absolutely. I think covid has
forced that, and I think it's inspirational to
see somebody who's so generous, because we can all be
generous in our own ways. I'm also a Virgo, by the way, so
that totally resonated with me. And speaking about sort of all
of these interviews and all these-- go ahead. CATHERINE GUND: She's
going to say something about her being a Leo. I think Virgos love Leos. [INAUDIBLE] Us
Virgos [INAUDIBLE].. AGNES GUND: I do think
Leo's the best sign. [LAUGHTER] MEGAN GREEN: Well, that's good. What do you think is the
best about being a Leo? AGNES GUND: Well,
because they're the brightest and the
strongest and the [INAUDIBLE].. CATHERINE GUND:
They're most humble. [LAUGHTER] AGNES GUND: But my
sister told me one time, she was talking
about how she really knows the signs and the zodiac. And so she was telling
me that she could always guess what somebody
was after talking to them about five minutes. CATHERINE GUND: It's too loud. So go ahead. So what did Louise say? AGNES GUND: Well, she could
tell that I was a Leo. Because she said, Leos
are very prideful. And so you are that
[INAUDIBLE] personified. So that's what my
sister told me. CATHERINE GUND: Which
is funny, because that's not a side that we see
come out in the movie. MEGAN GREEN: I love
these conversations, because that's how
you get to know. Look how adorable you
guys are together. I just love it. CATHERINE GUND: It's OK. Leos are [INAUDIBLE]. AGNES GUND: It's OK. It's fine. MEGAN GREEN: So there were so
many conversations in the film. There were a lot of
questions that we never got the answers to. You teased some of those. We saw the trailer earlier. What is love? Have you ever cried in
front of an artwork? Why are you not a
typical lady from Ohio? I think what's so interesting
is where did you get all the answers to these questions? How was it to edit
all that down? Because I almost want
to see "Aggie II." Is there going to
be an Aggie sequel? Because there is
so much meat there. AGNES GUND: [INAUDIBLE] CATHERINE GUND: Aggie's
with you on that, Megan. She'd like to see "Aggie II"
with all the other people who were in conversation with her. There about 15
people, bless them, who did conversations with Aggie
who didn't appear in the film. We had way too much
footage, as you can see. And even the people who
appear in the film often are there for a very
short period of time. It's just one question. And the conversations
were gorgeous. So we are taking little
clips and putting them on the website. So there are a few extras
you can already see. Some of Teresita and Darren
Walker and [INAUDIBLE].. So you see [? Sydney ?]
Lansing and Craig Starr talking about Eva
Hesse artwork, which is a particular one I love. There's more of Jack teasing
Aggie about sex and love. And there'll be other
ones that we'll put up. But I think that really
the questions to me, at one point I started writing
down all the questions, because many more, obviously,
even questions exist that aren't in the film. Not only the
answers are missing. And I started this
list of questions and it said, questions you
should ask your grandmother. And I couldn't finish
that list, because they are amazing questions. And to me the answers aren't
even as important as the fact that the conversation
is taking place. I just don't think we
talk to each other enough. We don't ask each
other real questions about what we think love is. What do we think love is? We have very different--
that people do. And to get to have those
conversations, I think, is a real luxury. MEGAN GREEN: It's like the
New York Times questions to fall in love to. And I love that. I think we all fell in love
with Aggie a little bit by seeing the answers to
a lot of these questions. CATHERINE GUND: That's so funny. I just thought of that while
I was answering your question. I was like, oh,
yeah, it's like that, where you just supposed to-- but that's exactly what it is. I think that was why
it was such a big hit. It gave people an excuse. Because otherwise what
are you getting at? And we don't have
time, and we have to worry about the baby's
diapers or whatever. Reasons to get out of it. And instead, this was
a real opportunity. And I didn't script
any of the questions or any of the conversation. So I just said-- it
started with the kids, and I just said, you can
talk to Nona for an hour. And they all wrote
out [INAUDIBLE] and they asked her
these questions. And then she was like,
that wasn't so bad. Because I was supposed
to do the interviews, and when I did the first one,
it just didn't work for us. And then we just
started asking people. And then I thought, OK,
I should make a movie. Because originally,
I was just collecting these little interviews, because
I thought for the archive. MEGAN GREEN: Absolutely. Has your relationship with your
mother changed over the years? CATHERINE GUND: With me. MEGAN GREEN: Yes. AGNES GUND: Yes. CATHERINE GUND:
How has it changed? AGNES GUND: Well, you're
a much more mature person. You've done much more, and you
have a life that is definitely involved with your kids,
which is wonderful, because they're wonderful kids. And you've created
so many more things. I couldn't watch-- Catherine knows
this about me, but I couldn't watch one of her
earlier films, [INAUDIBLE],, which was too difficult
for me to watch. And I never really saw it. But now I think I could
see it with a different eye than I used to have. Because I've seen her
work so thoroughly that I know [INAUDIBLE]. MEGAN GREEN: I
love this dynamic. The film premiered at Sundance. I love Sundance. It's my happy place. But what was the reception like? How was it? I mean, it's a big deal
to premiere at Sundance. And can you tell us a
little bit about what's happening with all of these
screenings during covid? Because I know there's a lot
of these virtual screenings. So I'm curious about
what this is like. AGNES GUND: Well, it was
fun, and it was a great trip, as far as I was concerned. Not just the film coming
up, but the people that were there and the enthusiasm. And it was before covid. So it was wonderful to be
able to go around and see things and be a part of
something that was as prestigious as you say it was. And it was that way. We happened in a
lot of conversations that we didn't expect to,
at least I didn't expect to. One of them was with the
widow of [INAUDIBLE] that was really interesting. And we happened to be
there at the same time. So we met her and talked
to her a little bit. And then we had
great food, which now because I'm
trying to lose weight I think about all the time. But we went to a Chinese
place for over that period. And we met all sorts of people. Gloria Steinem was
doing her movie there, and we went to see her. And we had lots
of talks about it. And there was a show of
some of the works of art. CATHERINE GUND: That was cool. AGNES GUND: And we went
to these people's houses and I bought even
some art there. And it was wonderful. CATHERINE GUND: It was. It was amazing. All of those things, the
show that she's talking about was really cool, because
we curated 25 pieces from her collection and had an
exhibit during the festival. We had our panels
within that space. We had our opening party there. And it was amazing. Some of the artists-- Xaviera Simmons and Cathy
Opie were both there and both had pieces in that
show and came to the-- and the kids came. And board members
of Aubin Pictures. My company is a nonprofit. So there are a few of
our great board members that come with us. And one of my sisters came. And it was really fun, and there
was such a great vibe there, because people are there
because they love movies and they love art and
they want to share in it. So everybody is just kind of--
and because movies-- what? AGNES GUND: The ultimate person
that was there was Robert. CATHERINE GUND: Robert Redford. AGNES GUND: [INAUDIBLE] And
he was a friend of my brother George, who was a movie buff. Loved movies and
brought a lot of movies that nobody wanted to see. But they were from
Eastern Europe. And he really got them
before other people got them. So that was what
was [INAUDIBLE].. CATHERINE GUND: He's known
for smuggling them out of [? Czechloslovakia, ?]
along with hockey players. And he was on the board
of Sundance for a time. And so he had been very close
to Robert Redford, who-- talk about a generous
person, and actually has so much in common
with Aggie in terms of how they see the world,
how they embrace people, and how they really
stick to their principles and what they believe
is just and fair. And work, as Ava says in the
film, work to make it so. And the two of them, and
actually John Cooper, who introduced the Aggie
film on the first screening. He said, I really
think of Aggie and Bob as having a lot in common. [INAUDIBLE] They're both Aggies. They're both Bobs. MEGAN GREEN: I love that. We're all going
to be Aggies now. CATHERINE GUND:
That'll be tapping into your agency, your ability
to just do something, have an impact on your own life,
honor your own subjectivity and trust your intuition,
educate your intuition to take you in the
direction you want to go. MEGAN GREEN: That's awesome. We will get to audience
questions soon. So if you have questions,
please put them in the chat. We know they're rolling in. But I have a couple more
before we get there. I love that you did an
art show in conjunction. And there's so much
with this movie. We had talked
about earlier, Cat, that this is bigger than
just a film, that this has a life of its own because
it's about so much more. But one question that I have
is, Aggie and Cat, you've always had the courage to
sort of collect artists before they get the
stamp of approval. And of course now
you collecting them is sort of a stamp of approval. But you said you
bought at Sundance. Are you still actively buying? Do you buy artists that don't
have the stamp of approval yet? What's your process
now in your collecting? AGNES GUND: I seem to have
ended my buying things. But by selling this
piece, that sort of made-- I changed what I did,
but I bought quite a bit. But I buy it for museums. I don't buy them for myself. I've bought maybe 20 things
in the last year or so. But I bought [INAUDIBLE]. MEGAN GREEN: That was
the end of buying. CATHERINE GUND: That
was the end of buying. AGNES GUND: But they've mostly
been for museums, as I say. MEGAN GREEN: That's amazing. AGNES GUND: Pieces
that they want and they want to have rather
than pieces that I would display or I have in the house. I still have-- I look at the work I have, and
I have a Guston and a Twombly in the living room and a
Rothko and other things like that nobody would buy now. They would buy for
museums and things, but it wouldn't be
what was the current. But for current work, I buy
mostly Black and women artists. And that was what we
had at Sundance where those two categories
that were in the show. And it was a very little show. There's also a show
up at Juilliard now, which is about 20
works of art that are from mostly women and Blacks. MEGAN GREEN: And
one thing I thought was so interesting in
the movie was seeing the makeup of your own family. Can you talk a little
bit about that, how that sort of has influenced
you to continue this path? AGNES GUND: Well, it
did have an influence. As I said when I
saw Ava's film, I began to really think more
about the grandchildren I had. Six of the 12 are Black. And I really began to
hone in on them in my mind more than actually seeing them. But I do get to see
them quite a bit. CATHERINE GUND: But I think it
was a really powerful moment when Trayvon Martin
was murdered, that we lived in a country
where there was a president who stood up and said,
if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon. And it was in that moment that
things like Aggie's feeling of, oh my god. And in the film,
we use that photo where she's with Kofi,
one of my children, and he looks just like Trayvon. And I think to be able to have
this community affirmation, as opposed to the gaslighting that
we're exposed to right now, that there's this affirmation
from the president to her community to her
artists to her family saying, this is a vulnerability. This is a fear that we share. It's not over there. It's right here and it's real. And I think that
really influenced. Because Trayvon was before
"13th" and Eric Garner. AGNES GUND: And it
really did affect me. And I'm still affected
by things that-- sorry. CATHERINE GUND: I wasn't
going to do that again. AGNES GUND: That were about
people like LeBron James and what he's become an activist
more than just a basketball player. CATHERINE GUND: Just. Maybe just the best
basketball player ever alive. But yes. Even more than that. He is beloved and he's amazing. AGNES GUND: And he has work. We've done some things
that he's done now or we've been involved with him
by giving some money from Art For Justice and also on
our own to things that he's been particularly
interested in, especially in Florida where we
have the rights of those that have been
incarcerated to come back and to be able to vote. And they were stopped with this
because the Republican governor of Florida wanted them to-- CATHERINE GUND: Not
be able to vote. AGNES GUND: So he
paid for all their-- CATHERINE GUND:
The fines and fees. And LeBron's been
a great partner in that in paying
off fines and fees, because the people
of Florida voted for the reenfranchisement of
formerly incarcerated people. And they voted, over
74% said that people should be allowed to vote once
they've served their time. They've come home. They're citizens
of this country. And so then this poll
tax that was imposed. The leader who we've partnered
with since the very beginning of Art For Justice is
named Desmond Meade. Everyone should know him. He's just brilliant,
and his organization is the Florida Rights and
Restoration Coalition. And he got people organized,
and LeBron came in and Art For Justice and other
people paid the fines and fees. And there are thousands of
formerly incarcerated people who are now voting for the
first time, many of them. And they're voting. They're voting [INAUDIBLE]. MEGAN GREEN: And you're
not biased about LeBron because you're from Ohio, right? [LAUGHTER] AGNES GUND: You're right. [INAUDIBLE] why. CATHERINE GUND: One of the
radio shows in Cleveland what's great about this
a couple of weeks ago. And we have this whole
long conversation about the film and
everything else and about Aggie and all
these things she's done. And at the very
end, he said, I do think your mom is really great,
but the most important thing she's ever done was
talk to Obama that night and told him to
root for the Cavs. MEGAN GREEN: The Cavs. [LAUGHTER] CATHERINE GUND: [INAUDIBLE] MEGAN GREEN: That was one
of my favorite moments. I love seeing that. I'm a big basketball
fan as well. All right, we're going to
take an audience question. From Ginny Johnson--
do you think your major gift has influenced
other major, maybe more traditional either
education endowment givers to consider more grassroots
anti-racist causes? AGNES GUND: I do. I really think that it was a
quieter subject, but a subject that has had long standing. And some of the
organizations we work with have been 40 years
or older than that. And they've been very important. But people didn't
pay as much attention to incarcerated people. And it certainly wasn't
on everybody's list of where you should give money. So this has opened up
something, and we've had many other people that are-- CATHERINE GUND: That are
joining us in Art For Justice. Aggie at the very beginning
said, I'm doing this, and I want other
people to join me. Specifically around
Art For Justice and ending mass incarceration. Over 30 people did,
our founding donors. And there's been more. But the bigger question,
which I really love, that was just asked,
is really about how the philanthropy
is different. And there's several
ways that we can change if we support
movement building, if we support
communities, if we really look at sustainable
change and power sharing. The Art For Justice Fund
is a five-year spend-down, which means that all
the money gets put out into the community
within five years instead of this long endowment,
as Ginny pointed out. That it's not about
creating an endowment at another institution and jobs
and bureaucracy and whatever. It's actually about
ending mass incarceration. And the people
closest to the problem are closest to the solution. And the idea was to get the
money out so that they also became closest to the resources
to realize their visions. And I think that that
is a different style. And it's definitely picking up. I mean, thank god
this summer, which both revealed and
exacerbated the problems and the legacy of
the way racism is manifest [INAUDIBLE] is
manifested in our current day. That I think there are
really great people. MacKenzie Scott, who
just gave $1 billion to-- is an incredible model. I mean, that's just the
beginning, I'm sure. Susan Sandler has also
just given $200 million. Don't quote me on the amount. But people are
stepping up and saying, I'm not going to just
do $50 or whatever is the $50 version for you. I'm not just going to give
a little bit here and there. I'm actually going to
resource the movement. And that way no matter
what happens in two weeks, we have a movement. We have a path forward. And the artists-- and the other
thing that's different for Art For Justice is doing the art
and the activism together. Really recognizing that that's
the richest, most powerful way to move the needle. MEGAN GREEN: That's
what it takes. And picking your
causes and really investing deeply in those
instead of sort of investing in a lot of different pots
probably does move the needle. CATHERINE GUND: But
also, as she said, not doing endowments
education, the way I read that part of
her question was saying that a lot
of privileged people get to go to very
fancy schools and then they turn around and give
money to those same schools instead of saying, where are the
people who don't have resources going to school and
how are we going to shore up those environments? MEGAN GREEN: Absolutely. And just to mention
what you've done in terms of art in the
schools with Studio in a School for so many years,
helping over a million kids, I believe it is, over
the last 40 years. So I just want to point
that out that this is not your first endeavor in
going deep into a project. CATHERINE GUND:
Do you want to say something about [INAUDIBLE]? AGNES GUND: Studio has expanded
some from when it was-- we have now two divisions
to it, the New York City program and the Institute, which
is around in different cities. And we're just going to
Chicago and Baltimore. Hopefully they will
be added to the ones we have now, which
are about five. CATHERINE GUND:
But talk about why you love being in the
classroom with the kids. AGNES GUND: Well, I love-- because the way
it's structured is they begin the class with the
artist who is there and showing them how to do it and showing
the materials they'll use and explaining why
they are using them and having some questions
asked by the kids. Which they then have the
lesson and they do their thing. And then they come back
and show the pieces. They show what they've
done and talk about that. And they have a lot of
addressing of the student and in ways that they don't get
in many of their other classes, because they're
never asked, well, what do you think about this? How does this work? What happens when
you mix yellow and-- what is it? But it changes
colors completely. And they really like to
speak and have somebody care about what they've said. And they're very
generous with each other in picking the thing. The person that is
sharing says that he can pick somebody to talk. And when the person's
picked, they really say the most generous things
about other people's work. So it really is sharing. And you keep thinking,
this can't be happening, because you don't
expect children-- I didn't ever expect
these children to be so thoughtful of the others. But that's what
creates [INAUDIBLE] CATHERINE GUND: Yeah,
it's a beautiful program. MEGAN GREEN: Wow. All right. What about another
question from the audience? From JC. Aggie, how has covid impacted
the way you see art, artists, exhibition programs? What do you see the future of
galleries, museums, auction houses, and how they present
their program to the public? AGNES GUND: I do think it
will make everybody change the way they do
things, because it's lasted so much longer than
I ever dreamed it would. And I think it has changed
some ways of people expressing themselves and dealing
with other people and dealing with things that
have to have a movement, that should be having a movement. And I think covid
has changed a lot. And I don't know
whether it will get back to doing things the
way we did before. But people are so inventive
and creative that they will come out of this. I think they're making
many more changes than we ever could have
imagined in the way we live and what we do. That doesn't mean
that I'm not eager, and there's somebody else that
keeps saying this in our ear that we see every day, not
for much longer hopefully. And he keeps saying we've
got to get back to work. CATHERINE GUND: Oh, yeah,
we're going to get past him. We don't want to hear
what [INAUDIBLE].. And we need to reopen
really responsibly. Nobody's saying we
don't want to reopen, but we have to do it safely. And I think it'll be
interesting what good things we can take from the changes that
have happened now, not least of them looking at
ways to get people out of prisons and jails. MEGAN GREEN: OK, we're
going to take one more. AGNES GUND: [INAUDIBLE] CATHERINE GUND:
Oh great, Angela. MEGAN GREEN: I think this
is a good one to end on. How can we help out
with Art For Justice? CATHERINE GUND: I think
there's so many ways. I mean, obviously it started
as a philanthropic endeavor. It's a fund. So all money that
is donated to Art For Justice goes
straight to the field, because the Ford
Foundation has generously partnered with us and
Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors, and they cover all the
staffing and the administration fees. So all money comes in goes out. And the good news, Angela, is
that we have so many people, including artists, starting with
Mark Bradford, who just stepped up and gave a full edition to
sell to benefit Art For Justice and raised $1 million
for Art For Justice. AGNES GUND: Of the print. CATHERINE GUND: Of a print. And now Julie Mehretu and
Mark di Suvero and Jeff Koons and even some of our fellows,
Titus Kaphar and Dwayne Betts, are giving pieces and
money, so that we are looking at have a a sixth year. So this is very exciting
for us, because it means that the
system we created, which honors and elevates
artists and activists working together, unites them in
their work and their visions. And so we'll be able to do
that for one additional year. So we are looking-- I think we've raised about
$15 million for that year, and we're looking
to have $20 million. But I would say on a
much bigger scale that isn't only about the
philanthropic side, that it is about
educating yourself. Educating yourself
about the system, the history of the system,
whether it's the books Aggie read, "The New
Jim Crow," "Just Mercy." She loves Isabel Wilkerson. People should check out
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Read some James Baldwin. Just read, educate yourself
so that you can actually figure out for
yourself what you need to do that will change the
system and make it more humane. As Aggie started at the
beginning of this, the people inside, the people
we're not hearing from, any time people are
literally marginalized, those are voices and brilliance
that we're missing out on, that everyone else
is missing out on. And we need to
reintegrate those voices and elevate the
voices we haven't heard, whether they're artistic
or scientific or teachers. All the people. I mean, we have over 2 million
people in prisons and jails in this country. That's a lot of parents,
fathers and mothers and coaches and teachers
and scientists and artists who are not able to contribute
to all of our well-being. MEGAN GREEN: Well,
we are so grateful for you being here today talking
about this really important causes. And I just want to
end by saying there are some really great things
on aggiefilm.com, including this card game that
Cat is showing off, which will be
available in April. There is a catalog
of all the work shown in the movie from
Aggie's collection. There's a discussion guide. And most importantly,
you can watch the film. So "Aggie" is available to
stream on Google Play Movies and various other platforms
and virtual screenings. Again, go to aggiefilm.com
to learn more. And I can't thank you
enough for being here. And hopefully we'll
see you soon in person. CATHERINE GUND: Thank
you so much, Megan. MEGAN GREEN: Bye. AGNES GUND: That was fun. Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]
