African Theology | Dr. Vince Bantu

the idea of a right belief or a wrong belief which is you know Orthodox or heterodox that's what it means it means like right belief right right doxology you know doxology that is orthos that is straight that is correct that they will say things like well that was invented by white folks that was invented by Europeans right and and for us the real the real right belief is all about you know is your religion Liberty's right well when we know actually the history of black churches that is both that is right belief and right practice and that's what our Savior himself said that love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself well thank you for watching another episode of the g3 project podcast as always I'm your host Lisa feels the founder of the g3 project and today we're joined by someone who's no stranger to the g3 project someone that many of you know and love and have been deeply impacted by dr. Vince Vaughn to welcome dr. Watson Hey hey Lisa great to be here great to have you on the podcast for those who might not know who you are just give them a little background about yourself oh yeah well yeah definitely like you said no stranger here then great to be here and yeah I uh you know again names been spawned too and I'm in Houston Texas and I teach at fuller seminary at our Houston campus and I teach black church studies as well as church history and then I also run the Meacham school of hyman oh and that's a african-american theological seminary program that's do we you know we offer courses too you know black church leaders affordable and culturally contextual way and so yeah my you know my main kind of interests are you know early Christianity in Africa and urban apologetics and yeah so I'm you know this the work of Jude 3 is very much near and dear to my heart and right in line with some things after the Lord's called me to do awesome well thank you for being back with us we're here to talk about your long-awaited book it's I'm excited that this reader is out because we think of early African history you think of time oldest book which is a great resource of that time over here is white will which is I'm thankful that he wrote it but definitely friendly when it's coming from someone that's african-american kind of no reason yeah yeah yeah that's a great question I'm you know yeah I mean I'm glad you mentioned you know because there's you know like you know you know as odin's but he's actually written several books and actually started a whole Center that's a great you know Resource Center for early African Christianity that's been a real helpful you know resource and and and I think you know a also there's Philip Jenkins book the I think it's called the lost history of Christianity and you know I don't like that title because then a lost you know it's just has been suppressed but definitely a lost but but yeah there's there's a few books out there that have you know talked about Craig Keener alia nurseries book black man's religion but you know one of the things that really you know when you asked like what maybe wanted to start the book you know I mentioned before just a little bit my background but my my my doctorate is actually in you know my I got my doctorate from Kathleen to America and DC and it was in the department of Semitic in Egyptian languages so people hear that they like oh you're like a linguist or a philologist and I'm like well sorta but I mean any historian word for languages and so our department that we did was specifically focused in on African and Asian Christian languages because there are whole languages like ethiop ik org it is and Coptic and Syriac and Armenian that that are almost like entirely devoted the whole language is almost entirely devoted to the translation of the scriptures and to the proclamation of the gospel into the the writing and cultivation of Christian literature and it's known to so many of us in the body of Christ all over the world and and that in and of itself is I would argue an extension of euro centricity and white supremacy that that we are only privy to literature and and texts that are written in European languages and so and so again like you said I'm so grateful for the some of these books that are out there but I think one of the things that are that are that are missing in some of the books is that if we look at them there is a very disproportionate emphasis put in like for example Odin's book or in many of these different writings to theologians that were from the continent of Africa like Agustin or half the nation or origin or Cyprian or Tertullian who wrote in Greek and Latin and and that's you know that's great we need to look at those those authors we need to talk about them and we need to know about them but again there were also many other theologians in Africa and in Asia as well who also wrote in not only did they write in other languages but they also they also expressed a thought and a cultural mentality that was very different and distinct from kind of the dominant Roman Imperial and again you have these different African theologians like Tertullian and Agustin and whatnot who yes they were African and they were from the continent of Africa but they wrote and thought in a much more kind of romanized way and it was because of that that that's why their writings were embraced by you know and still had been embraced by Western Christianity for the last two thousand years and so when he talks about how Africa influenced the Western Christian man Willie that's exactly what it is it's how how theologians who were on the content of Africa influence the West but again you know the main reason they influenced the West was because they thought according to the Western culture I mean Agustin was largely influenced by you know by Cicero who was a pagan Roman philosopher and also Ambrose him a lot a Roman theologian from Italy and so again a lot of their teaching and educational mentality even though they were from Africa was highly romanized it was because of that that they were largely embraced by the Western Roman world and again that's not to say that we shouldn't read them or even celebrate them as African people but I guess the the caution that I would say as we do that is we have to be careful that we don't only celebrate and highlight African people in as far as they have been influential and embraced by white people you know or as or reporting to white European standards right and that we have to also celebrate black Christianity and black progress in its own right even if it's not necessarily embraced or influential in white circles and I think that that's a big reason why we've heard the names Agustin sort of ian Athanasius but we haven't even heard the names we don't even know the names Shenouda or Benjamin about xandria or sorry occult or gay or geese of Sagna because these were african theologians who number one wrote in african languages which at especially at that time and it's no it's really the same today even on the continent you know european languages are more prized and african languages i've seen as you know less than and so these were theologians the one the names we don't know these are theologians who wrote in african languages and and were consciously embracing languages that were seen as barbaric by the roman empire but also number two they were a part of ecclesiastical church denominations that were seen as heretical by the dominant roman imperial church and that's another reason why we don't know their names and so and those are exactly the names they the the sub-saharan african theologians the darker skinned sub-saharan african theologians who wrote in african languages and were not were a part of indigenous african church structures that did not you know go with like Agustin did they didn't go with the dominant Roman Church they had their own church structure and it's because of that that we haven't heard of them and they've been suppressed for most of Christian history that that's really the reason why I said you know what again you know I think the books that are out there are great but I think we really need a another you know another work that really helps introduce you know a lot again a lot of these other names and these sub-saharan Africans that we don't really know about or don't hear about as a as a companion as a supplement to to what's out there yes that's extremely helpful and important that we note that if we are going to think make any leeway in in combating this narrative Christianity is the white man's religion that we highlight those voices that have been marginalized I'm looking through the book now and I'm thinking about many people who don't know the first Christians of Africa now if you've have you been listening to g3 for any amount of time this is something that you probably are familiar with but what do you think is unique about this chapter that we haven't probably already covered a lot of the g3 project mmm-hmm I would say uh you know probably you know kinda that's a great question and it kind of flows with what someone we were just talking about because again you know I think that in our community in the african-american mean when when we talk about black folks today when we talk about ancient African Christianity again the thing that we always go to first is Agustin and Tertullian and and Athanasius and the names that we know of and that we've heard of because they have been embraced and they have been stamped right these are the good Negros these were the ones that white folks accepted as Saints and so we've heard their story we've heard their history because they've been embraced by Western Christian history and so I would say that's that's maybe you know at least the first thing now that you know there's probably could talk about but I think that again even you know as we in this and this chapter we're talking about African Christianity I think something that might be new is some of the names that we haven't really known about or we didn't know about you know again like names like Shenouda or like Benjamin or like sorry echo or Gary so saga like some of these names were lots of Pedro's and Christos amra like some of these these African theologians that we haven't heard of and and also to even to know I would say you know again so many things I could talk about but I would say maybe the biggest thing that that is so important especially as you mentioned as an apologetically significant reason right leg as we're combating this idea in our community Christians white mentalism I think one of the you know one of the reasons why I I'm trying to draw our attention to you know not again let's look at a thesis and and or in agustin and all those Greek and Latin speaking African theologians but it's actually more apologetically efficacious for us to focus on these Coptic speaking and these Ethiopian speaking and Nubian speaking theologians for people today who say Christians why miss rules because think about if we're if we're if we're only propping up you know very fair-skinned Greek and Latin Hellenistic aliy oriented theologians who were very agreeable and when we actually look at them people like Agustin who actually harbored some like Roman racist attitudes towards indigenous African histories like a lot of these people need these cultic communities in our area they don't even know that and so you know when they get into that it's important for us to be abreast of that and so when we when we look at though again you know like Coptic and Ethiopian Christian communities who when we find how actually they were suppressed by the Roman Church that at the council calcium 451 and following even to this day that the Egyptian and Ethiopian churches they had their own theology they had their own way of their own Christology their own way of articulating the the divine mystery of the Incarnation that the Roman European Church did not appreciate or did not approve of and and so there's so again there are Roman theatres African theologians that the Roman and later subsequent European theologians and churches have kind of given their stamp a pool of right the good Negroes but there are still these so-called bad Negroes according to you know European standards these these Egyptian Ethiopian churches that to this day have been cut off and have been seen as heretical and and even starting 451 were were oppressed by the Roman Church like I don't know if a lot of us know that and hopefully that the chapter really introduces that that that from is starting in the 400s and then through the five and six hundreds there was actually systematic colonial oppression going on where Roman Christians came into Africa and oppressed African Christians because they their theology was divergent and was different and what it was a heretical right the Roman Church was saying that Jesus is one person into natures but again and in the African and in the Asian context that didn't really make sense to them they they felt like that what was being said but there are two different Jesus's now that's not what the Roman Church was saying but that's how it was being understood so they said that Jesus is one person in one nature but that that one nature is fully divine and fully human and so even to this day you can research history textbooks written by white scholars who will tell you that the ancient churches of Egypt and Ethiopia and Nubia that they did not believe in Jesus is full humanity and nothing could be further from the truth because when you add and again those books written by modern European church scholars they usually don't even know how to read the and that's why we have to go to the ancient texts these Coptic and Ethiopian texts they don't even these these historians are not even trained in these languages so they are condemning an entire trajectory an entire half of church history to heresy without even having ever read these writings in their original language and in yet but they are just simply imbibing the same critique that Roman theologians and the four hundred were saying about African theologians and modern European scholars are just kind of taking ancient European scholars at their word without having going but when you actually go read the writings of Severus of Antioch or Benjamin of Alexandria or or Timothy healers you actually find out that that nothing could be further from the truth these ancient African theologians believe fully in the full humanity and the full divinity of Jesus Christ but they just had a problem with saying that that there were two different natures because again in their language in their culture that that there wasn't a difference there wasn't like the same understanding of that there wasn't Greek about the difference the rhetorical difference between person and nature and so and so again that you know there was there was really a cultural linguistic misunderstanding but with the church the Roman Church that had more power they began to literally oppress African and Asian Christian literally going into their churches this is why Christians going in and oppressing black and brown Christians literally removing their their church leaders and replacing them with ones that agreed with the Roman theology and literally killing people and literally going into monasteries and churches and enslaving people this was European Christians hurting African Christians and a lot of us don't even know that history especially these people who say so you know that people who say Christians white man's religion when when we learn about this history especially the history of the Council of calcium and the schism that happened and the oppression that happened by European Christians to African Christians it blows that out of the water and it makes it completely untenable to say that Christianity is a white man's religion and that white Christians enforced Christianity on us when we actually look at the fact that by that's that first of all Christian was there you know already from the first century from the top of the New Testament but that's but but especially when we look at that fifth century schism that happened then we actually find out that not only did Christianity not come from Europeans not only was Christianity in Africa from day one but that starting in the fifth century white Christians were telling black Christians that they weren't Christian and that they weren't Christian enough because they weren't Christians the way they weren't Christians the way they were and so they began to enforce that and they began to try to change them into being crystals like them and the African Christians said no thank you we actually have our own theology we have our own church structure we have our own worship style and we and they were willing to go to death they were willing to die and be persecuted by white Christians to hold on to their own indigenous the African style of Christianity that is impactful and I think helpful when we think about what you're saying in the beliefs of these Africans for others and mothers who were marginalized what was their belief where what wait outside of the God Jesus being fully God and fully man what other things that we will call Orthodox that they affirmed oh they I mean they they affirmed everything in fact you know especially if you talk to um especially you talk to like Egyptian and Ethiopian Christians today they will tell you that not only did they affirm all of what we as Christians today would would call Orthodox but they were the ones who originally were the ones articulating it and they were the ones really defending it you know after nations again who was the Egyptian Pope and the Coptic speaking community you know in in Egypt like Boko meais and other than other monastic communities throughout Egypt stood with him in orthodoxy and he was actually oppressed because he held up and he was one of the you know his uh his his predecessor Alexander about who was the Egyptian Pope before him was the one that argue against Arianism and Arianism was the belief saying that Jesus was a lesser being that he was created being there was a time he didn't exist but Alexander at the Council of Nicaea was one of the main people who was defending that belief now here's the thing you know cuz these folks always want to say all Council of Nicaea Constantine and the Roman Empire invented Christianity but again another thing they don't know that we talked about in the book here in that same chapter is that that Constantine was very uh you know his his the nature of his faith was very dubious and and again we have to look at the fact that after the Council of Nicaea he flip-flopped and he began to persecute Nicene Christians like Athanasius who took over as Bishop of Egypt and he sent him in exile and so again how are they going to say that the doctrine of Jesus divinity and and the or that and Orthodox theology was an invention of Roman Empire when the Roman Empire the the same emperor that they claims the one who invented the doctor divinity was actually persecuting one of the African Bishop who was actually one of its greatest defenders and sent him into exile specifically for believing and he began to support the Aryans Constantine began to support the Aryans who said that Jesus was not God so Constantine was actually going back and forth wishy-washy and his son Constantius was even more so a supporter of he was the Roman Emperor during the 333 40s and mid myth 4th century and he also was strongly an Aryan and Constantine was in exile because of him and excuse me Athanasius was actually in exile because of Constantius the Roman Empire during the mid 4th century and he wrote a whole treatise against uh you know Constantius and critiquing him for his Aryan belief and and even so at a time when the European Empire the Roman Empire was under heretical leadership was was actually trying to promote heresy promote the idea that Jesus is not fully divine it was African people like at the Nations and and puukko meais and many other theologians in Africa who were actually defending the Orthodox belief and this was actually also the same time that Ethiopia became a Christian nation it was during all this stuff you know it was the nation's was heavily involved with that and because you know a king is Ana you know through a Syrian missionary heard the gospel and embraced it and became a Christian and we talked about that the chapter as well and then when Constantius the roll maneuver about that he was attempting to bring Ethiopia into the Aryan camp into the camp that said Jesus isn't really God and the Ethiopian Empire rejected that and said they actually aligned themselves with Egypt and from that time going forward there was a strong association between Egyptian and Ethiopian churches and Christians and they were united against the Roman Empire at who at that time was under heretical Aryan leadership so at a time when the Roman Empire was was promoting heresy the idea that Jesus and God African Christians were actually united in the belief that Jesus is fully God and so that's just another example to start with and again you talk to these a lot of these the descendants of these communities today they'll be the ones to tell you that not only do we affirm all of what is Orthodox that Jesus is fully God believe in the Father Son and Holy Spirit again they believe in the full of humanity and full divinity of Christ again if you if you know if you read folks today a modern church history textbook that don't even read these these these sources and in the first language in the original languages they will tell you they don't really believe Jesus is really human they thought he was just God and again nothing could be further from the truth they believe fully in the in the in the in the authority of Scripture in all of what we was affirmed to be Orthodox and not only believe in an environment but were some of the earliest defenders of that is helpful to know when we think about this even further and I forgot to define the terms for people who may be listening to this and may not even know what orthodoxy encompasses when we say orthodoxy what are we saying yes that's a great question and that's another that's another great opportunity right for to contextualize things you know we I mean you know here at the Meacham school imma know we use the Ethiopian word for theology Hiva note is the word for theology and the Ethiopian theologians at during this ancient time period they would often use the phrase Hyman over at it and Hyman over a tete-a-tete the word written in ink is means Orthodox right because you know given people who say white man's religion when you're defending the idea of Orthodoxy then you're defending a Eurocentric concept right and not only do uh cults say this but even even many black theologians are so-called so-called you know theologians will say this kind of thing to that I mean many unfortunately the majority of our people who are in the theological room will say things like you know there is no such thing as right and wrong belief right they want to focus on justice and they want to focus on liberation for our people which is good and we affirm that right but they will say things like well the idea of a right belief or a wrong belief which is you know Orthodox or heterodox that's what it means it means like right belief right right doxology you know doxology that is orthos that is straight that is correct that they will say things like well that was invented by white folks that was invented by europeans right and and for us the real the real right belief is all about you know is your religion Liberty's right well when we know actually the history of black churches that is both that is right belief and right practice and that's what our Savior himself said that love the Lord your God with all your heart my soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself and so the that is what right belief is what orthodoxy is biblically and that's what African theologians were defending so it's inaccurate to say that the idea of Orthodoxy the idea that that there is a right way to believe that there is a truth and that faith that claims or beliefs that are contrary to the truth that Jesus has said that he is the only way truth in the light that those things are heterodox that those things are incorrect right we have many theologians in our community today who say that that that's that's that's not real right that that's a that's a white invention that it was white folks who came wrong saying that there was right and wrong belief but no there were African theologians who were the earliest ones defending orthodoxy even way before the Council of Nicaea that there were people who are arguing that Jesus was fully divine and that any any teaching or beliefs contrary to the truth that Jesus is divine the you know the Gospel message the the core components of the gospel message or the bisfrog as they called it an Ethiopian language that these that the fact that there is a God and that there's one God not many the fact that his name is Jesus that he took on flesh and he was fully God and fully human and he died and rose again that this is this this this bisfrog message is the Orthodox teaching and has African theologian encountered Roman uh you know pagan religion and in traditional Egyptian religion traditional Ethiopian religion they argued persuasively for right action for sure to be sure and this is especially the monastic communities they were argument for social justice and human flourishing for African people but they were also arguing for red Ted right right ed is that Ethiopian word for orthodoxy and so I like to use that word you know and Hyman over its head right which means Orthodox theology as a way of as an apologetic to show that we don't even always need to use Greco Latin kind of terminology as we defend our Christian faith because we have African ancestors who were doing it but according to their language and according to their culture and in the case of Ethiopia they defended hyman Oh red Ted and again if you read the writings of the urges of soccer he was arguing vehemently against traditional Ethiopian African religion and he was arguing for Hyman Oprah Ted Orthodox theology right Orthodox belief and so that's what that's what that's what believers in all the times in all places have argued for that that the the orthodoxy is is is beliefs and practices that that are oriented around the gospel the saving gospel message of Jesus Christ who is the only way to thin light and anything against that is not Orthodox eaters editor dots it is not read Ted but again I like to use the I think it just suggested I encourage many people especially in our community to embrace a lot of these African terms as a as an apologetic in and of themselves so that that that Africans in their own way and in their own language we're also defending the the bisfrog the Gospel message you know according to theology or hymen oh that is written or correct that's helpful because one of the things that we've talked about on here before is that oftentimes some people use inclusive views of faith as a means to liberate themselves from white theology when in fact the father of inclusive ism is is white theology so to escape to try to escape one reaching for another is it's problematic because even textual criticism is rooted in white German theology so while calling built the framework he built it on top of white liberal theology mm-hmm until you for me my challenge is always and so you can find me touch your criticism produced from Africans then the theology you've given me is still white in a sense it has white roots but when we go back to what you're speaking of that goes even further so we're trying to find after Afrocentric theology we probably want to go more that way than the other those would be some of my thoughts and we've already talked about this on the exclusive it inclusive v2e I mean the exclusivity of Jesus conversation that you and I heard it on the podcast sometime ago so my challenge with it if the argument for exclusivity is that it is white my challenge is what is inclusivity what is it written and what is your pulling from potential criticism I haven't seen any black theology I mean any black textual critics so it because of that if all of them are German then you reflect your framework is white you're just moving in so if we're really trying to deconstruct and be calling our theology I think you have to wrestle with that as well so those are just me some of my my thoughts I think you can make other claims from the text but famous white I think it is gonna have a problematic a create problems for what you're trying to articulate your that's the the pushback you want to give no I will let that alone for now but when we think more about the early church in the Middle East what do you think most people miss because that's something you focus on in the book as well yeah I mean I think that that's another thing I mean you know it makes all the sense in the world right that that there would be a rich and vibrant Middle Eastern and Asian church history given the fact that Jesus was Middle Eastern and he lived in the Middle East and and all the disciples and all the early Christians were Middle Eastern people you know living in in the Levant right and so but again I would say that there's a is interesting that there is a very interconnected history between the Christian the earliest Christians of Africa and the earliest Christians of the Middle East because the majority not all but many of the Christians churches of the Middle East especially many of the denominations that are still around today that came up in you know Armenia and Syria and Arabia in modern-day Iraq you know many of those Christians were of a similar faith and confession that rooted themselves also to this schism so what the stuff I was talking about in you know in in with regard to early Christianity Africa and the way in which that early African Christians were actually oppressed by European Christians also early Middle Eastern Christians were oppressed and it's rooted in the same issue that same calcitonin schism so if any if anything if there's one thing as we talk about the book and at the top I kind of take aways and say that there's one thing that maybe that I think that some of the other existing literature really misses is the fact that the Council of calcium needs to become a you know much more studied and known and talked about event in our circles and in our specia black people but even other you know minorities as well because again that that council was very detrimental and very uh consequential for the for the for the Christian faith for the hit for Christian history because again there was a major schism that was totally unnecessary that you know and honestly I mean this is not just my opinion like I mean literally the roman catholic pope and the syrian orthodox pope you know just a few years ago actually signed a joint statement saying the same thing i'm saying saying basically like yeah we you know we really just weren't understanding each other and we're all christians here and you know we just weren't understanding those languages and so even the leaders of these communities have said that today it's not just my opinion but you know you know it's so it's still the ramifications have have been so detrimental because again the gospel the best rod was spreading in every direction across Africa and across Asia and and the church and many of the churches especially in the Syriac speaking culture you know Syriac was a language that that was from modern-day Syria and and part of Turkey but in the Christians that spoke Syria because it was a dialect of Aramaic that's the language of Jesus and and that Christians who spoke that language they ended up going all over the Asian continent I mean literally not only throughout the Middle East but all along the Silk Road as far as China and all the way down into India Oh as far as Sri Lanka I mean literally the gospel was spreading all over the Asian continent and primarily through Syriac speaking people from the Middle East who were carrying the gospel so again any claim that Christians Whiteman's religion is also counter able when you look at Asian Christianity because the Christianity first came to Asia from Middle Eastern Christians who spoke Syria who ain't have you know nothing to do with the Roman greco-roman Constantinian empire but again it came in way before it again at the first century and-and-and I mean for example the the Syriac Bible came straight from Hebrew straight into Syria it didn't even go through the Greek Septuagint and so that's just a visual example about how the way the way in which the gospel came straight from you know Hebrew Middle Eastern is Israelite people in the Levant the Apostles and it went straight into their Syriac speaking neighbors in Asia without any Western or European or Roman intermediary but it went straight and then from there went straight into Persian and into Central Asian into China again with no European intervention in the whole thing and so that's a that's another you know I think powerful history that we need to talk more about but again also that was also frustrated in too by the Council of calcium which in the fourth in the in 451 the Roman Church was saying again Jesus is one person in two natures and just like in Africa many of the Middle Eastern Christians in Armenia in Syria and Arabia they weren't going for that they were saying no Jesus is one person in one nature but again that did when when they when they did not want to say two natures that did not mean that they believed that Jesus was only divine and not human they believed fully again if you read severus of Antioch Jacob of Suruga falak sternness of ma Boog if from the Syria these are well everyone stares a little bit beforehand I want to mention him in a minute - but but any of the other names like Falak sandesh Jacob uh you know and Severus these are all Syriac theologians who believed strongly argued firmly for the full humanity and full divinity price but they did didn't want to say that those two things were in two different natures because again in the language it didn't have the same effect and meaning as it would as it did in Greek whereas in Greek you could have that kind of distinction between persons in nature and so they they didn't accept the the Council of calcium because of that the Roman Church also strongly persecuted them as well say just like in Africa were going into their churches and removing their leaders Severus of Antioch who I mentioned who is one of the biggest Syrian theologians in the 500s who argued against the Roman Church they sent him in exile and he wrote a lot of his literature against cows eaten in exile while he was in Africa in Egypt and he also wrote about how the Africans and the Middle Eastern people he was living he was he was from Syria but he lived in Egypt in exile because of the Roman Emperor and he was actually writing about how the Egyptians and the Syrians were all together in one faith and and and they were both united against the Roman so there was not only an African Alliance but there was an African and a middle eastern alliance against the Roman Church and so that's another thing that again that this that's why I'm saying this council of calcium thing is is massive and huge and so just like in the Middle East there was a Christian tradition in church history that was that believed in one nature they called themselves me--off as a means one nature and they and and they and for them that was what was worth aDOT's that was what was you know what was you know the correct way of thinking and uh and and and that was that's a part of that goes back to the beginning of the church in in the Middle East and and I think that's another thing another another thing that I'd want to point out about the Middle Eastern things I mentioned Ephraim the Syrian he was a he would he lived before a lot of this controversy and he wrote he was one of the first office to really write in the Syriac language and he wrote poetry that is that is absolutely beautiful and I would recommend anybody who wants to read more again to be a little bit more inclusive to be a little bit more diverse in how we read early theologians I would just first of all I would appeal to people please read more than yes read Athanasius read Agustin read Tertullian but please also read theologians who wrote in other languages who wrote in African and Asian languages and and when it when we talk about Middle Eastern the the number one a person I would recommend is that from the Syrian air from the Syrian wrote theology and he defended orthodoxy he wrote against heretical groups in the Middle East in his Middle Eastern context in the Syriac language but he also did it in a way that was unique to his cultural context he wrote a style of poetry you know go over this in the chapter on Middle East were called mad Roche and mad Roche are you know they're often translated as hymns but I prefer to just call him odd Roche because really the word him doesn't do justice to the fullness of what this this artistic style was but it was actually in the Middle East it was a style of poetry that went to music it was almost like a spirit was like gospel it was a spiritual where you know the the the leader would chant out poetic phrases in certain syllable patterns and then there would be a chorus that were chanted the the chorus and it was a communal musical thing that actually started in in pagan worship and Ephraim actually took that cultural style in his context andrea propriate it for the gospel and used that poetic communal interactive musical spiritual type of poetry to or to to communicate orthodoxy and so but again interestingly throughout a lot of Western scholarship you will find overtly racist things said about Ephraim and Syriac poetry in theology calling it unintellectual calling it unsophisticated calling it not as theologically robust as you know the Greek counterparts during ephram's fourth century context like you know gregory of nazianzus or john chrysostom or or you know any other greek or a Gustin in either Greek or Latin speaking theologians it's crazy how blatant the racism is in a lot of modern European scholarship but we you know we see the same thing in our community today I mean how many of us black Christians today have been told that black preaching is you know less theologically robust and less theologically profound than white preaching or that gospel music is low litter you know I can't stand people say like hi worship low worship that somehow a gospel song they don't that has like you know repeated lyrics in it is less theologically profound than a hymn that has like a thousand words in it that you need like a book to read the whole thing and again I'm not hating I mean there's you know all these things are good but we still deal with this now that we that one style of worship one style of tradition is seen as you know more superior to another just because it comes from my folks but again Ephraim the Syrian is a great exact because when you read that man's poetry it's it's intellectually mind-boggling and there's some great studies out on his poetry and even the fact that he communicated theology and orthodoxy through poetry shows that he was strongly arguing for that like you were saying or the idea of Orthodoxy the idea of right wrong belief the idea that there is an exclusive truth that does not come from my folks so there were African and there were Asian and Middle Eastern theologians like Ephraim who argued for orthodoxy from his own cultural vantage point but he did it according to his own cultural and artistic means that was dissed and dismissed by Western European counterparts in his time and to this very day but when you again when we got to get him on ephram's theological poetry his Maude roche because they are in a uniquely and indigenously middle-eastern way of Christian worship and expressing Christian theology and orthodoxy definitely that is it's very very helpful when we think about just thinking about how you can include it they think before that I just I think you've mentioned it so much I think we would do our audience a disservice if we didn't tell them what it was people are familiar with what happened at the council and I see a but if you would have to have to give a short one about the other counsel even you mentioned just give a short synopsis yeah no I thank you for asking that because again we we we have got to talk about the Council of cows eating that that that I mean yeah the council Nazis important as well you know you know it's considered first of all you know first of all this is a sad no but you know this is the thing for me as a historian and especially the black historians that we have to start to decolonize the way we do history you know a lot of times a lot of times the search history textbooks will tell you counsel and I see was the first counsel and will say it's the first counsel it's not the first counsel it's the first Roman Council right and they actually the Persian Empire there were Christians in the Persian Empire you know at the same amount of time that there was in the Roman Empire and they actually had councils before the Council of Nicaea they actually had a council even years before the council and I see so the council Massey was the first Roman Council but there were churches in Persia who were not even in the Roman Empire they were having their own councils again making it untenable to say it's a white man's rules because it was there was already Christians in Persia they were doing their own thing having their own councils there was Christians in India having their own councils there was you know Christians in Arabia having their own councils they you know and so you know but the Council of Nicaea the council's we often I mean for example there's there's the Council of Seleucia in 315 there's the Council of mard Rd so there's I mean there's so many other councils that that we need to have another product cast to talk about that because there's all these other councils that have nothing to do with European church history and we need to talk about both for Tomba Roman churches there was some European church history then the Council of Nicaea is considered to be the first ecumenical council but there were other ones as well now the Council of calcined was considered the fourth at communica council but I would always I always want to add it's the fourth Roman ecumenical councils the fourth European Council there was Nicaea in 325 there was Constantinople in 381 and then there was emphasis in 431 and then calcined happened in 451 now again all this is Roman just please remember that we're talking about Roman European church history and there are other conversations that we could and and need to have about what was going on other parts of the world but in the Roman Empire Roman Christians were not really clear on how to talk about God and talk about the God that's another important point in them so is the fact that it was only in the Roman Empire that that Christians were wondering whether or not Jesus was God or wondering whether or not Jesus is fully God and fully human how to talk about that Christians in these other areas that I'm talking about they weren't even struggling with that they were clear on that they had other questions and other issues but in the Roman Empire first the question was is Jesus God and the Council of Nicaea affirmed what had already been argued for hundreds of years that yes Jesus is fully God and they had to say it in a council because it was the first time that anybody had ever stood up to say the opposite that he wasn't God which was areas but there were many other Roman Christians Irenaeus of Lyon and Tertullian and Justin Martyr who had already said hundreds of years before that that Jesus was God and then in 381 again because like I mentioned 325 was not the end of the story in the Roman Empire because Constantine Constantia were trying to revert it back to Arianism and say Jesus wasn't God Julian who was Emperor in the three 60s he was trying to bring the Roman Empire back to pagan religion and so there was a time when Rome was trying to come back to pagan religion to persecute Christians again so the situation in the 300 was very tenuous but in 381 that was when under Theodosius it became more firm and continuous that Chris Roman Empire was Christian and they just reaffirmed what was said in 325 that Jesus is God and also they put more interest on the Holy Spirit because in the cut' Nicene Creed it just said we believe in the Holy Spirit but in Constantinople in 381 the second Roman Council they added you know more about the Holy Spirit now in 344 31 in emphasis the council of ephesus that was when there was a question about Mary's role in the whole thing because in the 400s in Rome they started having questions about okay whether if Jesus is God then how is he also human how do we understand that and so in 431 there was a question about Mary's role in the whole thing and like it did Mary give birth to God or did Mary give birth to the Incarnate Christ and Cyril of Alexandria you know argue that that Mary gave birth to God that she is the Theotokos she is the bearer of God and the Nestorius of Constantinople was condemned as a heretic for saying no she wasn't the bear of God she was the bearer of Christ and so that that that council was the third Roman Council but that also shows how they were beginning to talk about Jesus's humanity Davidian how they go together now 51 the Council of calcium that was when the issue came to a head and and they wanted to specifically talk about Jesus's humanity and divinity how those things work together and how we talk about that well there the the you know there were there were christians in egypt who were starting to say that jesus has one nature that his humanity and divinity are in one nature and so they had a council in 449 then again they had their own council in egypt that said that jesus has one nature well the roman starts heard about this and they had so the council of calcium at 451 it actually wasn't it was a reactionary council to the council that egypt had in 449 and and they wanted the roman church one to say okay well the egyptians are saying that jesus has one nature and we don't like that and so Leo the Bishop of Rome you know he wrote a tome that where he talked about Jesus has one per he's one person one who Costas us but he's two natures he has two physics and that tome that Leo wrote the Bishop of Rome wrote that at the Council of calcium at the Roman Council of calcium that became seen as Orthodox and the at calcium just like in 449 the Egyptians had their own Council that condemned the Romans well the Romans had their own Council in 451 at Cal seeding and that rejected the Egyptians and said the Egyptians are heretical who are saying that Jesus is only one nature and and that was that that was the moment that the council cows even was the moment that there was a major split between the the dominant Church of the Roman Empire and the churches that were in Egypt because also at that time Nubia and Ethiopia had already been a Christian nation for over a hundred years and Nubia was also becoming a Christian nation right around that time and there was Christians and coming around in Nubia as well and so the churches of Africa were all united with Egypt in rejecting the Roman Council and then a loop and then also as I mentioned many of the Syrian theologians were also against this Roman decision this this council of Kassadin and Leos home and they also were saying that know Jesus is one person in one nature and so the again the the Council of calcium represents the first major cultural schism in the church the the Christianity has been a religion for all people from the very beginning and the gospel the bish rod was spreading in every direction he was going across Asia across Africa and across Europe but the council calcined the reason that's so important is because that represents the first time that European Christians said no the way we talk about Jesus and the way we do theology is the only right way and you have to say that Jesus one who passes in to physics even if that don't make no sense in your language even if in your language for example you don't even have two different words for who pastas and fizzes and what that means in your language is not the same right but again all these Christians were in Middle East in Africa and in Europe they all believed that Jesus was fully God and fully human and that he's the only way truth in the life but they had different ways of talking about that his humanity the Romans were saying he's one person two natures the Middle Eastern African folks were saying no he's one person to one nature but that that one nature is fully God and fully human he is fully God and it will be human and so that that's why it is so important for us to really understand this history because like I mentioned not only did the Roman Church excommunicate many of the African and Middle Eastern Christians and call them heretics unjustly but they began to go in and persecute them there this was Christian on Christian violence this was European Christians of persecuting Middle Eastern and African Christians and and when they did that for 200 years right after it from 451 to 640 they were doing this for 200 years or persecuting Christians in the Middle East and Africa that severely limited their ability to continue to spread the gospel across Africa and across Asia and so and so European Christians flaunted the missionary efforts and the minister ministerial efforts of African and Middle Eastern Christians and then what happened in 600 years in the in the year 600 that's when Islam came around Islam comes out of nowhere and conquers the Persian Empire and much of the Roman Empire and the Romans had already been persecuting African and Asian Christians for 200 years so when the Muslims came up and took over those parts of the world the Romans just retreated it's a fine you can have them because we don't like them anyway we've been persecuting them for 20 years anyway they don't listen anyway and so then already persecuted Christians in Africa and in the Middle East now came under Islamic control and that also eventually hindered their ability to continue spread the gospel so what does this mean this means is that the gospel was on its way to our ancestry to our ancestors in West Africa and in central Africa just like it was on its way all across the Asian continent into the Pacific Islands on its way into the Americas to indigenous people the gospel was spreading as God intended it to be and what got in the way of that white supremacy what got in the way of that one dominant church standing up saying unless you're a Christian exactly the way we are you're not a real Christian and we're gonna persecute you and and unfortunately the gospel ended up arriving to the shores of West Africa or to the Americas to indigenous people through slave and colonial ships not the way God had intended it because the gospel was spreading already from Africans to other Africans and from Asians to other Asians and that was already happening so that again the Council of Cal seeding is is a in 451 is a I'm sorry you said make it a quick one but I'm gonna be quiet now but good but uh but it's such a detrimental time period and such a thing to lament and understand but it's also helpful to understand as we combat this idea because now through God's providence even though the gospel came to many of us through slavery and colonialism now through God's providence we have the ability to reconnect and that's what this book is all about now we can and and not just this book but we have the ability through so many other means to reconnect mister we're gonna do a trip to Ethiopia and and and and there's so many other ways that now Christians of color who even though we received the gospel through colonialism through slavery now we are disentangling ourselves from that Eurocentric via theological paradigm we're decolonizing our theology and as we do that as we disentangle the true bits rot the true gospel of Jesus Christ from the you know from the white supremacist version that it was first introduced to many of our ancestors my suggestion is as we do that let's also look at non Western and African and Asian Christians who didn't have to disentangle it who didn't have to decolonize their theology their theology wasn't decolonial it was our colonial it there was no color it was it was embrace and it's been independent you know from day one and they've been actually and not only that but they've actually been resisting white hegemonic whites of Eurocentric theology since 451 let's look at those people and you know and let's learn from them and let's let's connect to that let's let's emulate that same kind of theological discourse and also it's helpful apologetically as I mentioned before the Council of Kassadin also because it shows that that the gospel has survived and thrived among African and Asian people even in spite of European attempts at it imposed in one particular style of Christianity and that makes again the claim that it came from white folks untenable that not that nothing could be further from the truth that that African and Asian Christians in these contexts survived even despite European Christian precedent that's extremely extremely helpful I think to our listeners you conclude with this and I thought this was very powerful line just to begin the conclusion with its following Jesus the way he made us My Lord Jesus the way he made us I thought that was so so powerful explain why you decided to go with that concluding mmm yeah I mean I think I appreciate that because again that just segues into where I was just going and and uh you know again like to me the reason this history is so important the reason why it's so interesting is because again I you know I as a you know just to share a little bit of my testimony and I grew up in one of the first hip-hop generations in urban context in west side of st. Louis and I always grew up thinking that my urban hip-hop culture was wrong and was evil and and just everything about it was he went to be sure there's a lot of things about it that God needs to transform but I always grew up thinking it was all evil and I'm not grew up in the days where you know they there was even black churches were you know even earning hip-hop CDs saying the stuff is evil and it's from the devil and and so I you know and I remember and shout out to like reach records and cross movement and some of those early movement they really disciple me from a distance cuz I you know I never had a context for people wearing backwards hat and do-rag and and and being Christians following Jesus and I just never I never thought that was possible I thought you had to follow Jesus you had to just totally reject everything about who you are and and I really you know that really ministered to me another group that really ministered to me and still do is Native American Christian theologians who also have been told that their language their culture is just wrong and demonic and they were told that by white Christians who put put them in reservations and put them in Mission boarding schools and told them everything about their culture is demonic and and and many of them are also you know shoutout to North American Institute of indigency logical studies like people groups like that also decide with me and understand helped me understand that like God came so that you could be the fullest of who you are God didn't come to make you less black God didn't come to make you less Native American he didn't come to make you less Chinese or French or whatever you are he came to make you more of that he came to complete that right Paul said a Jew is not a Jew only one outwardly but but inwardly Paul was saying basically that I'm a real Jew I'm a true Jew because I'm I've been grafted in through faith in Christ and so it's the same for all of us because again you know we're not all supposed to be Jewish we ain't all supposed to be Hebrew but God makes us all diverse on purpose and and and again you know PE told Peter he had to tell Peter that first in acts 10 when he said kill and eat and Peter said no no I don't touch anything unclean and God said do not call unclean what I have called clean and we know that God was set in Peter up to meet Cornelius and understand and realize that the gospel had been revealed to Gentiles and we see in acts 15 that not only our Gentiles included in the gospel but also as they are they don't have to be circumcised they don't have to become Jewish they can stay Gentile they can stay Greek or or Spanish or North African or Egyptian or Persian or whoever they are whatever they do they that that that that the gospel both embraces our culture and it transforms it where our culture's are sinful it transforms it but it also embraces it because all theology is cultural all worship is cultural all all of what we do as Christians in response to God's revelation is cultural God's revelation is universal it's transcended the gospel is transcendent it's universal but theology and worship and what we do as as Christians in response to God's revelation is cultural and so all theology is cultural so we can't just embrace some other groups theology some you know Dominic groups theology and that dominant group also needs to realize that their theology not a cultural but it's also culturally relevant and and it's and and you know it's not just the truth it's not just the gospel but everything every every theology every theological articulation every Creed every Council is culturally specific it's not just the truth and so we need to realize that and understand that all of our theologies are situated in our particular context and we are all reflecting on the same Universal Word of God the truth and the Gospel message and so we we are doing a disservice to God I was doing a disservice to God when I was younger and I thought I need to throw away my culture and that's what God reached out to me and spoke to me the same words that he said to Peter is that he told me events in reference to my urban hip-hop culture do not call it unclean because I've made it clean and that's the same for every culture every people group that we have to follow the Lord as he made us that to deny who we are to deny our culture and say it's all evil it's all wrong it's all for us as black people to deny our African ancestry to deny our black skin and and many of the ways in which we are connected in our African ancestry uh you know with you know there's ways in which we need to again within the parameters of the Bible and in the gospel we need to connect to a lot of our African ancestry and and you know that's why you know like I said a lot of times I use African terminology and African concepts and people say oh you can't do that that's syncretism that's this and that okay well what do we think we're doing every time we say Thursday Thursday or we say the word God which actually comes from luden or Odin from Nordic mythology or we say Easter which was a pagan goddess right we we we have Christmas trees and Christmas wreaths that come from European pagan culture will connect with European paganism will embrace European paganism but we won't even connect to our African ancestry right in the content of court again as I said in the context of biblical truth and in the truth and the truth of the gospel again the gospel has transformed a lot of our culture but also embraces it as well and so how do we how can we more deeply connect with our African ancestry and embrace our african-american unique culture in all of this diversity hip-hop and all of this different cultural diversity and for all of us right because again we'll meet when we deny who God made us to be we are calling what he's called clean unclean and and again the the purpose in embracing who we are the purpose in embracing all of who we are in celebrating it and and again becoming truly black that becoming a Christian and maturing in Christ and being discipled doesn't mean that we become less black again when John looked up in heaven he saw every tribe nation tongue we're still gonna be black in heaven and there's gonna be hip-hop in heaven there's gonna be breakdancing in heaven there's gonna be every kind of worship and dancing and coach because God chooses to be glorified in diversity he made us male and female in God's image God Himself is in diversity Father Son and Holy Spirit in unity you can't have unity without diversity he created us in different cultures anyone in different races different colors and he told us to spread out fill the earth and cultivate it that's what the Reform brothers sisters called the cultural mandate he intended for cultural human diversity it wasn't an accident and it wasn't uh you know a surprise and it's not an earthly temporary situation we're not going to be floating clouds in heaven we're still gonna be black and white and native and Asian and Hispanic and Arab and all these languages and cultures are part of God's imprint on us and as his image bearers that we are all are called to create language and culture as he created us we are lowercase C creators as he is the capital C creator and so culture is a part of our identity but when we all are doing one thing when we're all you know kind of like you know people like to say it's a salad bowl like have all these different ingredients but but what happens as we pour ranch dressing all over the whole salad bowl and everything all those different ingredients all taste like ranch right we we now I'm not saying we shouldn't read and experience different coaches I'm not trying to say white theology or white Christians bad we shouldn't read it not at all but what I'm saying is that it has gotten way too much play in creating two thousand years of Christian history way too much play and there's indigenous African Asian theological you know stories and trajectories that we have not talked about that we need to reconnect to and we need to continue to develop new voices that are unique to our people that are rounded in the truth description in the gospel but also that fully embrace who we are as and follow Jesus and he's made us that is extremely extremely helpful to to us and to our listeners how can people get the book yes oh you know this multitude of all peoples public school varsity press academic and so you can get it on the on the webpage on you know on the publishers page in a bar see it's available on Amazon and and yeah you can so definitely definitely uh feel free to to a copy yes and I highly recommend this resource if you if you were like I'm trying to keep up with what he was saying but I he's going too fast for me get this book and go through it and if you want to start we heavily pull from our conversations with Vince to think through how we did the curriculum so if you need a intro um you can get the through either color and that little small chapter on early African Christianity as a as a little intro and then dive into the heavy stuff so but definitely if you already most of our listeners already got the intro piece because we've done tons of episodes on this so this I think is a helpful resource that will live on for years and years that people can look to to navigate to reconnect to their history to understand like that I can see myself in this face and so thank you for writing this I know you put a lot of effort years of work years of study so we appreciate your your diligence in studying to produce this how can people get in contact with you on social media and your school's website oh yeah yeah well we'll definitely feel free to hit me up you know Vince - on Facebook and you'll see me there standing in the in front of Ethiopian church trying to practice what I'm preaching reconnect into the streets and an out and in lieu that actually uh you know definitely also hit me up on the beach and website WWDC mor G in the AC hmm Oh our G and you know you know it hit us up you know we got events coming up on that website we have a theology conference that's happening in Chicago that's going to be held at Urban Ministries International and we were talking earlier about you know just how to how to recenter black theology in a way that is truly black and also a biblical that's what that's all about so definitely you know feel free to come hit that up as well also we're gonna be sponsoring a trip to Ethiopia in January during the Ethiopian festival of Tim Kent that's another example right there right and Ethiopia it's not Christmas that's the biggest holiday they celebrate Christmas but it's not Christmas that's the biggest holiday the biggest holiday is the celebration of Jesus's baptism what they call at MCAD which means baptism in Ethiopian language and man they go crazy it's like party festivals and worship and bright colors everywhere and we're gonna be seeing these ancient churches and ancient places that we talked about in the book in it live and in color and living color so definitely hit that up in January of 2021 but you know you can sign up for that as well on the beach and website and if anyone's interested in taking classes they're available fully online you can take them right right from the comfort of your home completely online and they are these classes are do offer a pathway to credit masters and m.div degrees as well so yeah definitely hit me up on the meats and website awesome well thank you so much this has been a rich conversation we appreciate you coming back on the podcast and definitely y'all check out his website and get that book ASAP it's very very important well thank you for listening to another episode of the g3 project podcast here at the g3 project we're helping you to know what you believe and why remember you can get our new curriculum through eyes of color at Jude 3 project org and also you can become a monthly partner at Jude 3 project.org hitting the donate tab I like to say every gift helps equip we appreciate you for listening and we're so thankful for you and rooting for you during this time of chaos with the corona pandemic we're praying for you and I thought in prayers and until next time grace and peace god bless [Music]

Channel: Jude 3 Project

Views: 9,596

Rating: 4.9606881 out of 5

Keywords: African Theology, Vince Bantu, Early African Christianity, urban apologetics, apologetics, Fuller Seminary, A Multitude of All Peoples, IVP

Id: GY4yheAtZBk

Length: 62min 59sec (3779 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 25 2020