Africa Stands Up to US Cold War Bullying Against China & Russia, w/ Kambale Musavuli

for the foreseeable future africa is the last frontier like it or not we have what the world needs and i like the chinese approach the chinese understand that africans are human beings we congolese did not decide to give albert einstein and his project the manhattan project we didn't decide to give them the uranium the belgians did and as they took it they caused destruction of a apocalyptic proportion that would not have never happened if we were not colonized right so as we see that they say that you cannot compare what china is doing to colonialism hello everyone i'm rania khalik and this is dispatches as the u.s cold war with china and russia escalates taiwan and ukraine are usually the main points of contention often left out is africa as a major cold war battleground china has been investing more in africa making trade deals with various governments providing loans building ports bringing more african countries into its belt and road initiative the u.s complains that this behavior is imperialist and neo-colonial all while the u.s is militarizing the continent and bullying countries deciding with the u.s over china and russia so what does this mean for africa can china's rise benefit the continent providing it leverage and another partner to rely on or is the state department correct that china is engaging in neocolonialism and that african countries should be cautious and prioritize their relationship with the us or maybe this conversation is too black and white and ignores africa's potential as an independent economic bloc powerful enough to reassert the global south in global politics here to discuss this and more is kambale musavuli an activist writer and analyst with the center for research on the congo konchasa but before we jump into it be sure to hit the subscribe button and the bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show you can help it grow by becoming a patron at patreon.com breakthrough news or by donating below on youtube kambali welcome back to the show thank you for having me thank you so much for coming on i'm really excited to have this conversation i think um it's one that people are increasingly interested in as the us kind of starts to focus more on africa in the light of china and so i guess a good place to start would be some recent news i mean a lot actually happened around the issue of africa and china versus the u.s in the last couple of months but one of the more recent news items is china for giving these interest-free loans for 17 african nations um so for people who don't know china offered uh basically is for giving 23 interest-free loans which is a very big deal that's on top of the fact that from 2000 to 2019 china has cancelled 3.4 billion dollars in debt and restructured 15 billion dollars of debt in africa and has also said it will support the african union in its effort to join the g20 and the american reaction to this has been or not just the american actually the western reaction to this has been quite funny and i think one good example of that reaction is the economist so i'm just going to show this real quick this is an economist headline china's ruthlessly self-interested lending policies share some of the blame for the developing world sovereign debt crisis the solution will involve teamwork which does not come naturally to china so this was basically the reaction from or just propaganda basically from the economist after china said you know it's going to cancel all these interest-free loans so all that's to say kambale you know when we talk about this loan issue china's constantly accused by the west of putting african countries and developing countries in general and a debt trap so i'm curious if you could talk about the significance of china's latest move in canceling these loans what it means about the debt trap narrative and how it compares to africa's relationship with western financial institutions that are controlled by the united states it's actually quite funny how uh we're having a discussion around interest-free loan that the west has never given i mean i want to hear one loan that the west has given to the drc that was interest-free um that's one uh two for me i think it's very historic uh for china to look at the context in which we are living i think globally uh on the african continent actually we are suffering uh i mean i won't say from the coveted pandemic from the capitalist camp pandemic i mean coffee is just a disease you know it's um it's a health uh issue if you have the proper medical facilities a proper medical measure you can deal with that so capitalism is what really created a crisis um but to drink of it and during uh the the wars that's being created by the west particularly the us in ukraine um and also retention in china uh the cost of living on the african continent is increasing so it's making it hard for governments to be able to abide or be able to pay them their loans so getting some relief is very important for that and then you have to look at what these loans were for now these loans were for infrastructure building improving the conditions of living of africans so these are much needed operations and i think china looking at it and saying that this is going to um help the african people even though they do not have the payment back but humans and human beings on african continent are benefiting so i think it's very historic it's very important and as africans we have to now start seeing and think about how do we make sure that we have obligations and that we are able to pay for what we ask for and that challenge of as african doing that is uh it's becoming harder for us because our leaders you know the the corporators the local bourgeoisie do not have the interests of the masses and that's the context in which china is engaging on african continents they are doing great work um but by the partner on the other side uh all the compradors who are making it hard for the ordinary people to be able to benefit from all these projects right so we constantly hear uh from socialist leaders like in in africa that africa has a capitalism problem not a china problem and of course like when it comes to these loans i mean there's a crazy history of the imf and the world bank you know basically putting these african countries in these debt traps that last decades and decades and decades forced them to deregulate and privatize everything in their countries and then you know it's like loans that can never ever be paid back because they're impossible that is literally the debt trap and of course that's the irony of accusing china of that but also this comes at a time when we've seen a lot of bullying of africa by the united states and europe as well since the war in ukraine started i mean just a few weeks ago secretary of state of the us anthony blinken you know went on this visit across africa and of course this followed the trip by russia's sergey lavrov and if the purpose of the purpose of blinking's trip was pretty explicitly to counter supposed russian and chinese like malign influence but on that tour he gave this speech where he said the rest of the world should no longer dictate to african nations which have been treated as instruments of other nations progress rather than the authors of their own which is true but of course like the us has been at the lead of that of treating africa as an instrument but just one week before blinken was there you had the us ambassador to the u.n linda thomas greenfield also on a tour of africa telling african countries what they can and cannot buy and she even warned african countries that there would be severe consequences for buying russian oil and then there's also this bill in congress which i'm sure you've heard about it's called the countering malign russian activities in africa act and this is meant to uh it basically demands that the state department punish african countries and african officials who are supposedly like aiding russia's malign influence and for violating any of the u.s unilateral sanctions on russia uh so on the one hand you have americans warning about russian and chinese malign influence and then on the other hand you have u.s officials you know actually imposing this kind of malign influence so i'm curious what your thoughts are on that contradiction yeah i mean the the first one let's let's look at the loans that the west has given you know whenever we were talking about the debt trap coming from the west uh what project did they put in place for the african continent and can we point out to these roads that uh world bank money build on the african council and i say oh they connected the cities to the city and benefited the people the way it has been structured historically uh the world bank's loans have been to benefit contractors who are part of the world bank network so they dictate to african nations uh receiving the loans how they should use the money right they said that well we want you to cut funding to um education and to health care this is usually where they go to and then they want you to invest in private sector mining and here are western mining companies who are going to come and bid on this project so they literally dictate to us how to do it that's not how our china engages in uh having the loans of the africa county china is dealing with africa and say what do you need you need schools you need hospitals you need university you need roads they come they build it they build it alongside uh with africans because sometimes it's emit that chinese are bringing their workers and africans are not working in this project that's not true but they build things that people can literally feel the impact the aspect of secretary blinken discussing uh how they should dictate to africans how they should think they actually doing that by the bill not the bill you've said it very well the only thing i catch is russia my marlin act right i haven't grasped the whole title that bill literally is telling africans what they should do they tell they're dictating to us how we should engage um with russia which is surprising you know so what is russia doing i'm in kinshasa as i'm speaking to you right now in the drc russia is here the presence of our russians is visible even in the streets what are they doing right what i'm discussing with the people here they are working on an agricultural project right with the biggest university in congo called the university of kinshasa and the collaboration will be with the university of kinshasa russia and the university of ediban in nigeria right for in agricultural research to improve our agricultural outputs so is the u.s saying that we in the congo should not learn agriculture from the russians right so that's one aspect what's what else is uh russia doing we've had a migration of the congo by its neighbor rwanda documented by the un group of experts that rwanda is arming training equipping rebels and actually sending their troops with them secretary blinken himself in the press conference while he was in congo and his trip to the african continent he had the stop in the drc he secretary clinton uh secretary blinken himself said that there is credible evidence that rwanda is supporting rebels in the congo so the us is very wealthy of that as they are aware they have not taken any action to hold on that accountable the congolese government has sought help to the security council specifically the united states they have not provided the support to bring an end to the rebellion drc so the congolese government has moved to russia and the the minister of defense had high level meeting with the russian government and the russian government including putin uh say clearly that we are ready to support the congo to bring about peace and stability so those are the so-called malian acts that african leaders in the usa i'm not saying that the leaders in the drc are these progressive um leftists or people who have the interests of the congolese people but i'm understanding the moment in history where we are that african leaders are being forced to choose what is good for their people in the congo we need peace and stability and whoever will support the congo to have peace and stability at this time after two decades of war i think it's positive as long as there is no imposition of the foreign nation's political will on the congolese and i'm not seeing that on the part of russia it is positive for congo to have agriculture it is also positive for congo to have roads hospital schools um uh hydro dams to have electricity in the congo this is the energy project that china is doing so that should not tell us what to do and just for your information uh currently the drc uh president is uh the chairman of the senec the southern african development community the the sedec nations had a meeting in kinshasa last week and in the meeting all sadek leaders including the congolese president have denounced the malayan act the russian mining act say that this does not represent um what the african people need to do and in the words of kwame kroma we neither looking east nor west we're looking forward africans want to look forward how to improve the conditions of our people that we cannot be dictated by washington london paris or anyone in the west about how we should do it well sad yeah and you know just to just to note what you're talking about here i mean congo was one of the african countries that initially back in march i think it was had supported the u.n resolution uh sponsored by the u.s condemning russia's invasion of ukraine but during it was really fascinating because during lincoln's trip to the democratic republic of congo it actually coincided with that change in position that you just noted uh which was very interesting to see and then also you know you mentioned rwanda um you know tensions have risen at the border uh and congo has been asserting itself against rwanda quite publicly over what's happening in the east of the country so i'm curious before we continue on about the issue of like africa as a battleground in the cold war with us and china can you just give us a brief idea of what's going on at the border what's going on in the east between rwanda and congo who is the m23 militia is rwanda in fact supporting them as uh as the congolese leaders say and where does the u.s and u.n fit into this the best way to understand the current uprising the rebel uprising rebel attacks by the m23 is to have a historical look of what has been happening in the congo the m23 is just a name of how they are caught today in 1996 they were called the afdl uh what does that mean in 1996 congo no saw a war coming a war of aggression two of his neighbors running in uganda who are u.s allies on the war on terror on soccer world terror invaded the congo and stole the leader in 1997 and since have invaded numerous times the drc and support proxy rubber militia groups these um support of these militia groups is more where they it's other i think i should compare it to the the black watercr context you know black water it's not called black water today black water is co it's called z if i remember correctly that black water knew that by keeping the name that they had they would still have bad reputation around the world so they change it to a new name so the m23 rebels are rebels where they were in 1996 they were called afdl in 1998 they were called rcd in around 2008 they were called cndp in 2012 they started being called m23 and as we are calling them m23 right now they've actually changed their name now to arc the uh in french's army revolutionary congolese the congolese revolutionary army so in a few weeks you may hear the press starts calling them arc and you wonder who are they they're just a proxy of rwanda what does run that mean in the drc they've been getting access to land to mineral resources uh illicitly exploiting these mineral resources and selling it to the international market so for example today rwanda as a country is the number one exporter of a mineral called koltar and they do not have the level of reserves that they are actually putting in the international market and everyone is buying it from them and no questions asked uganda's gold exportation uh has increased uh 100 percent folds um some time even 300 percent they don't have the level of gold uh they are selling in the international market and so on and beyond that uh beyond the exploitation of resources the west used running in uganda as the proxy on the african continent to do that better deeds on the continent or around the world so for example if you go to afghanistan today you will see ugandan soldiers as part of the the so-called coalition of the willing now imagine why are african soldiers from uganda in afghanistan because there are u.s allies on the so-called era and they use them there something we random they actually operated also in uh haiti as part of the u.n mission but serving u.s interests so why the m23 aggression today that's the fundamental question m23 was brought down in 2012 now there is a resurgence the resurgence is happening at the time where there are peace negotiations with armed groups in drc in kenya in nairobi organized by the president of kenya no is about to leave because there was just a presidential election we're waiting for the final conclusion of the court but kenya has played a progressive role i'll say a positive role in bringing about peace and stability and while these negotiations were taking place in what i call a way to blackmail the congolese government the m23 started an uprising so that they can have a larger say in the direction of those negotiations and they are asking for amnesty what does that mean to give them amnesty and this is not me actually saying that right this is even the random president saying so what the president says that the m23 rebellion has nothing to do with rwanda and then he adds something he said but the congolese government should listen to uh the demands of the m23 so the m23 has a spokesperson which is called gaping of rwanda pretty much sharing what they should do but what are the demands of emptiness the demands of the m23 is amnesty what are they gonna be amnesty for the raping of congolese women the killing of civilians the barring alive of communities in areas the destruction of property that they have committed so much crime since the early since the mid 90's to present that they do not want to be tried in the drc for those crimes plus they want to be integrated into the congolese army so when they they are called the m23 is because of the march 23rd 2009 peace agreement so their claim is that the agreement of 2009 is not being followed by the congolese government and most people have never read that agreement and that's what i always bring about say that if you are talking about the m23 what are they asking for they're asking the congolese government to agree to what they demanded in 2009 pushed by the international community they're telling us congolese that rebels can come to your village destroy the community and they should go free and be integral in the congolese army and the congolese government as i said it's not a progressive government but i've taken a posture that now we should not abide by that that is not correct justice should be at the forefront and with the blackmailing of the m23 that shut down the u.n uh helicopter actually a russian pilot was on that plane on that helicopter so a russian died actually in drc um as part of the u.n forces and they start also attacking position of the congolese army at night which means that they had to have night vision goggles or night vision equipment and they start raising flags so how do they have increased military capacity they did not have before and then the u.n group of experts not just the congolese government right the u1 group of experts an independent body hired by the u.s security council right so it's an independent body hybrid security council to investigate the situation in the congo they were able to provide evidence video evidence surveillance evidence drone imagery to uh minimum three independent sources of the allegations they put in the report documenting that not only the rundown military is training is arming and equipping the m23 they are also fighting alongside uh the m23 in the drc so a foreign military the run the military in the drc with rebels are fighting the communist army and the u.n forces this has seriously application based on what blink can say secretary blinken came to kinshasa had a press conference in kinshasa and said this that he has credible evidence that the information provided by the u.n group of experts is true so he actually admitted so when he did that he made a statement in kinshasa i raised the flag i said if the secretary of state said that this is credible evidence the question now is why isn't the secretary of state enforcing the law what am i talking about there is actually a law called public law 109-456 this law was written by barack obama when he was a senator he was sent into lawmak george bush it's the democratic republic of congo relief security democracy promotion act of 2006. so in 2006 this law was written i was signed into law that the bill was signed into law in section 105 of this bill which is the allah on this public law 109 456 section 1 105 which is the rewarding of foreign assistance says this that the u.s secretary of state has the power to evolve aid to any nation destabilizing the drc so it's actually a u.s law so what we're asking in drc is if the secretary says that he has credible evidence that one day supporting rebel groups in the usa why isn't the secretary of state enforcing a u.s law so the secular state on one hand is is breaking the law and as the secretary of state is breaking the law no one is actually holding him accountable right so we keep hearing him traveling and uh the thing that's been very frustrating to me is the narrative that's portrayed around ukraine but we in the drc are very clear that the u.s supporting its ally rwanda using u.s taxpayers money to train the military equipping the wonder military and that u.s taxpayers money is ending up in the congo killing civilians with no accountability well we don't need the the u.s moral authority or moral judgment to say less for humanity let's stop the war in the congo in color that's what we're not waiting for that what we are saying is you have a law enforce the law and stop breaking the law no and so and it's really interesting to hear all that and then juxtapose it to the kind of media that we in the united states are constantly bombarded with when it comes to the issues of russia and china and africa because you i mean what you're talking about is not front page news in the united states i don't think anyone has any idea that the us is supporting rwanda as it has this like militia that's killing civilians in congo no one in america knows that what they see instead is stuff like this i'm gonna give a couple examples um one is i'm gonna play a couple clips here one is this uh recent vice um vice i guess segment documentary i don't know what you wanna call it vice episode the title is how russia profits from africans coups um and i'm just gonna play i'm gonna play a little clip from this because it's really interesting here we go however a 2020 military coup and another a year later prompted a diplomatic fallout and in february france announced it was withdrawing its forces [Music] as relation soured marley looked to one of the world's most notorious mercenary groups to fill the void wagner they're mostly ex-military working for a notorious private military company which has close ties to putin and his allies it's the latest african country to turn to russian mercenaries as moscow capitalizes on weak governments and military coups to further its ambitions on the continent russia has quickly become a power broker in africa but many fear the consequences for countries already struggling with violence and corruption russian mercenaries in the central african republic facing multiple allegations of war crimes including torture rape and murder there's no accountability there's no contracts they can do whatever they want every place the russian mercenaries have gone wasting more instability not less they have no interest in peace by definition they want the conflict to continue so how is moscow exploiting chaos to expand its influence in africa and it just goes on and on and on i mean it's like a parade of white experts telling us that russia's evil uh and look i mean i'm not saying everything russia does in africa is great i'm sure that russia does shading things just like any country does shady things i'm not you know an expert on the wagner group i don't even know you know if western uh claims that it's that deeply tied to the russian government is true i don't know but it's like i've never seen vice do a documentary about america in africa which there's far more evidence of america and europe doing extreme damage for the last several hundred years up until today and then here's the sort of thing that we'll get when it comes to uh china let me switch screens here okay so this is an article in the new york times that was published recently it was about this is about um china's foreign minister and it portrays him in a very negative light you know as the new york times does everything related to china and this or this this brief part of the article caught my attention it says as china carves out its place in a changing world mr wang the foreign minister has been its public face particularly because mr g zee has hasn't visited a foreign country since the start of the pandemic he's mr wang has been extolling mr z's vision for china as a global leader that embraces the developing world and that leads an authoritarian axis against the united states and his allies an authoritarian axis against the united states and his allies so kambale the reason i um i do apologize for subjecting you to all of this awful nonsense but the reason i raise this is just to give people obviously an idea of the sort of um stuff that we're constantly bombarded with but also i want to get your response because it's just so wild like considering what you just described about rwanda which is america's best friend in africa as well as uganda tell us who are america's greatest allies in africa are they democratic and furthermore how do you respond to these ongoing claims that what china's doing in africa is a form of imperialism and form of neocolonialism and it's all very very bad and we should all be so concerned about it you know some of these western analysts actually think that africans do not have a brain that they have the urgency to know what is good for them that they have aspirations to transform their lives the lives of the loved ones their lives or their countrymen and women and of the continent also right that they assume that wagner in the case of the central african republic is just this mercenary group that just showed up without invitation or anything and that they are doing all these bad things but i am from the drc our first democratically elected prime minister was assassinated with the help of the cia we just buried his tooth uh in june of this year his tooth was found and discovered and appeared in belgium the whole world know that the cia in belgium and local congress psychophant participating in the killing right they physically removed patricia more from power and then the cia imposed the dictator on us for 32 years please tell me which country wagner has imposed a leader i would like to know that is that what's happening in central africa republic or even in mali right but we can go on and on about the different dictators on the african continent that the us have backed as and they have financed them while the people of the country organized democratically to have a say in the decision-making process they were assaulted but the military support that they provide to these dictators i mean look at what's happening in rwanda president paul kagame has won the past elections with over 90 percent he wants the world to believe that over 90 percent of rwandans want him to be president and no one there now and the vast majority do not do i can go on and on about the the things that's going on there i mean it's even terrible that hollywood made a movie called hotel rwanda after the london hero uh paulo sasa begina uh was saved thousands of tutti during the genocide and other hotels who were seeking refuge in the hotel so we know the movie and the person portraying the movie probably beginner today was kidnapped by the random government well and he's in jail today for now over two years found guilty of terrorism so the man who saved thousands of touches today is in jail in rwanda kidnapped worse he's being spied on with pegasus right rather he's using pegasus and the spying that he's doing is on musabagina's and also us diplomats right rwanda is using pegasus against american officials and they're not saying anything right now they have not done any critical action to hold them accountable so the us and particularly the west do not have a moral authority to tell africans around mercenaries and support of strong men because that's what they've done the conjuncture that africa has today and if you even look at in case of mali where mali has requested forcefully right that's me being polite i have a request hopefully for the french to leave and the french soldiers have left and malik is working very closely with russia to make sure that the so-called jihadists that mysteriously appear uh in the sahel region are not destabilizing their country which leader will not do that and you said something earlier right what was spoken by drc that drc was one of the countries that voted at the u.n against russia right in condemning russia for the ukraine crisis but there is a complete 360 today why because congolese politicians understand the united states much better now they understand that they were voting hoping the u.s would support congo but the u.s is not supporting congo why would the u.s protocol that their reason were that if we are voting the same land as the united states and if we have a challenge the u.s will come to our side one of our us allies rwanda is supporting rebel groups destabilizing the drc and the us did not move to support so that shifted very quickly but it didn't shift just because uh in spite right of the us we have a serious issue of militia groups displacing thousands of people and we ask for help who is going to help us and putin answered the call putin the ministry of defense in uh russia said congolese we are going to come and help you bring an end to that so that's the context so if the russian military a russian government or a russian or a military organization is in drc at this current moment is it to reinforce a dictatorship i would say no it is not but i'm also understanding that as i said earlier the communist government is not a progressive government but might not understand geopolitics that's making it at this moment russia is the right partner for the drc to bring an end to the crisis and that's the position the congolese government has taken which is completely different from the earlier position of supporting the us resolution against russia and the u.n yeah i think it speaks to the way that the crisis in ukraine is really changing uh not i don't want to say it's changing the world order but it's certainly left to a kind of led to a kind of shift because i think a lot of countries much like the drc are are seeing that they don't have anything to get out of supporting the united states in this effort because it's not changing how the u.s treats them um and if anything china and russia are you know they do have a more beneficial relationship with them than they do with the united states and i wanted to ask you though real quick um well actually before i ask you about this i just wanted to note we you and i and uh mika ella erskog nando urskog actually did an episode on dispatches last year around this time about the issue of africa and like the us you know sort of militarizing it and using it as a battleground for its cold war and i really recommend people go check out that episode to hear kambale you gave a very good breakdown of the us basically taking over the airport in ghana and the reason i raise that is because one of the the vice episode or i'm sorry the comedy central daily show episode i showed the clip from making a big deal about china taking over the ugandan airport which never actually happened when in fact the us military has taken over this airport in ghana and i raise that just to ask you you know i want to talk about a little bit about u.s military expansion expansion because while you see china investing and like bringing a lot of countries in africa into its belt and road initiative and like building things in africa uh and russia forming these partnerships to help certain african countries deal with security threats on the other side what is the us doing the u.s isn't investing in infrastructure though it's constantly saying that it wants to and pledging money that goes i don't know where but we do see a lot of u.s military expansion in africa which is framed at least in part as a response to china in africa and here i'm talking about the development of africom um and the development of africom in 2007 did happen alongside the sort of escalation of the u.s and allied foreign military bases in the sahel the horn of africa and elsewhere as kind of a part of this new cold war i'm curious can you talk a little bit about the us military expansion across africa what does that look like and you know because it's something that's never talked about and military power right doing politics in africa is very scary africom is that's how i present it right the africom on the african continent beyond even a military bases they are engaging politicians they are inviting them into meetings to get thoughts from them about certain issues and that is becoming so more says we are being invaded by the us military i mean let's look at ghana right ghana a country in west africa today has given one terminal to the u.s military so they have the international airport they have terminal 1 terminal 2 and terminal 3. the entire terminal 1 has been given to the u.s military they fly in and out without any visa without any customs control no one knows what happens there but the u.s military and this has been a hub uh a logistical hub for the us military for west africa so what most people do not understand around uh u.s military expansion on the continent is that they are actually working with france very closely not french soldiers are moving across the west africa thanks to u.s logistical support it's the u.s that have c-37 planes that can move this big equipment so they are lending that to nato forces to french forces to move around and using an african country now ghana one terminal to them can you imagine that you will go to chicago oh yeah i always use that as an example right you go to chicago or o'hare and one terminal has been given to zimbabwe military government zimbabwean military just use one terminal uh in the u.s uh in one of the u.s airport that's what has taken place the other expansion is also the building of many drone bases there is one in niger there is actually one also in uganda they have quite a few uh drone paths i mean drone landing fields across africa and they're sending these drones flying over africa documenting shooting hipperdan all over somalia they've killed civilians and the people who are being killed on african continent by us armed drones we do not know how to hold them accountable even worse there are u.s drones that are just flying out of the sky this has happened in uh yame right in here like a drone just fell from the sky luckily didn't hurt anyone but can you imagine you just see something just fall and you don't know who to hold a cannibal yeah most americans do not know that but what is africa africom is a u.s military command the u.s have they have divided up the world in regions and then made this region into command and they're looking at africa as a region and they created it this was actually initially written by heritage foundation in the year in the early 2000s in a paper around u.s military response to um the decrease of the dominance and the the rationale that was provided in the heritage foundation paper was that we needed to create a military command called africom specifically the people actually call it africom one to stop qaddafi libya specifically mentioned there and to be able to counter china's influence on the african continent and third to control and secure strategic resources donald rumswell took that paper written by the heritage foundation and made it into an actual reality that they created around the bush where uh i think it was around 2007 that it became active it was official george bush traveled around many african countries trying to convince african countries to have the headquarters of africa there all african leaders say no they did not want to have this military base uh this military command at the headquarters on african continent so the headquarters for africom for strange reason it's in germany it staggered germany because african countries do not want to have um the headquarters there but while it's being uh directed from star stuck in germany the military operations are taking place all across africa the u.s knows that right there were i think he was in uh niger there were four american soldiers who were killed and i think one of them was african-american young men from chicago and in the u.s press they were discussing how donald trump was not um humane to the family right and i was very surprised that this was the discussion right we have an american soldiers who was killed in africa and the analysis was very low that was a partisan attack on donald trump i've been asking why a young black man from chicago in his 20s is finding himself on the african continent in the military operation what is the military operation are africans attacking americans so africa is becoming the new battlefield for the u.s war on terror the african continent did not know this form of terrorism before that we are seeing that even in the drc i mean it's fascinating that in the drc today the u.s have been able to put congo on the list of countries that has the harbors terrorist group and that in the drc today we have jihadists here's the context it's a very uh you know simple explanation congo has majority christian country of like about 70 to 80 christians right we've we do have a muslim community so by them even bringing the term jihadists is there's talking something that that it's not possible right that all of a sudden we have these rebels who are called adf that they're saying they're tied to isis that which means and they're saying that the gia so which means that adf is trying to cover the whole congo to islam right country of a hundred million people to islam a small group that's what they want to do what you believe and they are only attacking people where the oil is you know what's the most fascinating thing because i'm on the ground now i'm in teacher since i'm speaking to you and i was speaking to a human rights activist and he made a funny joke and i laughed when he shared it with me he said and asked him about the adf and he shared a few things but i said the anecdotal he said the congo will be remembered as the only country where jihadists come and raid villages and steal pigs and when he said that he made me laugh right because i understood what he meant to say we have muslims stealing pigs from villagers to go cook pigs in the past on the ground are very clear that this is a complete fabrication yeah what is happening and then that's bringing us military advisors under africa all across the african continent we have u.s military advisors who have come under africom in the drc they are operating right they're opening uganda they're all over west africa in the case of ghana they have the uh u.s military has a whole terminal given to them and then i will end by saying beyond even africom what i've noticed in my research happening at the moment is that we have now something called u.s army cyber which i never knew that it existed and when i heard that u.s army cyber so i said what is this u.s army cyber and in the drc they are spending time bringing congolese politicians and asking them one question what is your view on china so whenever i heard that i say a co-police politician is in a room with about 70 army officers who are from a branch called u.s army cyber what does cyber security in the u.s army have to do with china and what do you want to know what congolese people think so me saying that and saying that the u.s military expression is happening at an alarming rate because one then as i said they're looking at africanized objects no that we can't think for for ourselves we can't change our things it's very simple if the united states came to us and say you have uranium we would like to take your uranium then we say well maybe after hiroshima nagasaki it's not a good idea to give you congo's uranium because the uranium that was used in origin so this may not be a good idea but you can help us invest in a hydro dam to harness electricity from the congo river and provide electricity to african continent and figure out a way where it can be alone that we will pay it can be a joint venture that's something that we want but that's not what he's saying is we're seen as just a place where things can be taken but not actually what is it that is good for us that's why i always love that quote by quantico never looking east nor west we are looking forward and us moving forward we have a challenge because the us is interfering looking at us as objects and using china as an excuse to continue to keep their dominance on the african continent yeah i mean i think that's a good point you make about the resources obviously africa is the most exploited continent in the world historically by the global north that continues to exploit it and again hundreds of histories of colonialism imperialism literally stealing people like the ameri like how many people did europe literally steal kidnap and take across the ocean to the americas like depopulating an entire continent but you mentioned the issue of uh you know you mentioned a dam you mentioned uh like talking about resources that can power things you know there is also this other issue where you know specifically with relation to oil and gas there are these oil and glass gas blocks being sold in the rain forest in the congo and on his recent trip uh to africa blinken discouraged the drc from doing this and asked that they prioritize environmental conservation of the rainforest and you know obviously the conservation movement from the west has a history of being used as a cover to actually exploit and control countries but at the same time of course the drc does need like climate finance to help them combat poverty and it's not like the us and europe are offering it so it does make sense that they'd sell the gas even at the risk of like you know the planet um but then there's also the question of whether we can expect the congolese government to actually redistribute the gas money so i'm just curious what are your thoughts on these particular contradictions yeah it's a very sensitive topic right um you see when blinking is making a statement that uh congo should prioritize the environment as it relates to the oil blocks i would like to actually hear him say that american companies are not participating in the auction because we have american companies actually buying these old blocks right so is acting sounding as american corporations are not engaged in that so that's one level uh the second one the 27 oil blocks and three uh gas permits that the congolese government um have put into uh they have put into action to the highest bidder at the moment can provide tremendous uh wealth to the drc um i'm not talking about all 27 right i'm just going to talk about the albertan rift that has five blocks and block one is the one in lake albert lake albert is at the border of uganda and congo lake albert has a potential of having 2.5 barrel of oils that's just one block out of the 27 right 2.5 billion barrels of oil and that oil has been given to total most of the area being exploded on the ugandan side is total on the congo side to that is acquiring them and having control and the oil is going to go through a pipeline going into uganda and then out to darysala in tanzania what we are worrying about as you relate to these oil blocks is that these oil blocks are super important when you look at the map in cities where the massacres of congolese people are taking place the city of beni the city of bhutan the city of oasis so when you start hearing where the so-called adf that they are connecting to isis is in these areas that they are killing so for us the discussion around no exploitation of oil is not in the context of environment it's in a context that we know that people are being killed off of the land to get access to the oil and the people who are now dead will never benefit from that so that's the congolese perspective on the oh now the climate change and that's very fascinating that they're not thinking of us as human being dying because of the resources that's there but they're worrying about a tree being cut but if you solve the humanity question and the people are alive on that land you won't have to exploit the oil right and they they don't understand that that's the the to solve climate change you have to think about the people that you are discussing and the biggest exploiter of the environment it's not the oil of the congolese and the oil blocks it's the u.s military yup look at all the bombing that they do can you imagine that the u.s president dropped a bomb in afghanistan and called it the mothers of all bombs i don't know why they had to say mother in the beginning right what is the environmental damage of trying out matter of all bombs that they dropped in afghanistan and all the drone bombing that's taking place all around the world we're not discussing that we are worrying about 27 oil block in the country that is cash trap that need capital to develop is you know it's country and i cannot continue to emphasize it's not a progressive government it is a reactionary government but in the context of the pressure from blinking it's pure hypocrisy american companies are engaged in it congolese people are being killed in areas where they're always that's the most important thing to deal with by holding uh your neighbors accountable by solving the problem of this adf and the lie that the pentagon and the state department has created or connecting adf to isis when the uh un group of experts have clearly stated that there is no link between the adf and isis that clearly say that already but they continue to repeat the same story so that's at least where i fall uh on the issue of the all blacks but the way to think about even the resources that we've had any mineral resource exploded in the congo congo still arguably will be one of the richest countries because even of its agricultural potential right it can produce food for nine billion people we have seven billion people right now the congo river has 1.2 billion tons of fish dying in it you know why the fish die in the congo river 1.2 billion tons than that of old age we are not able to even harness wow the fishing industry to be able to feed the world and it's there so even without the minerals we could do that but we are not at peace we are not we don't have the stability we need we are being imposed leaders and so if we are able to select our leaders run our country some of those issues that uh lincoln is mentioning will not be known will not exist will not impact the environment you know i think that uh there's something interesting happening now too especially the past couple decades is that the battle over influence in africa isn't limited to this rising escalating cold war between great powers there are so many smaller countries that are also vying for influence countries like turkey um various european countries like on their own for their own self-interested reasons that aren't necessarily related to the us or china um japan which i know is like a proxy of the united states and this sometimes sometimes acting as a proxy when it acts in africa but also has its own interests especially the arab gulf states i'm just curious you know what you make of that um that fact that there's a lot of smaller countries that are kind of you know doing things in various parts of africa to try and gain influence here or there and what that means and you also forgot the biggest culprit israel oh the israelis of course well you know what when i say the gulf states i feel like israel is like kind of an extension of those but yeah you're absolutely right the israelis have their hands in so many african countries yeah and they've been doing agriculture they've also been doing what i think is much more problematic is uh surveillance uh selling security to the surveillance tools to african nations and also trying to become a member of the african union i mean you just sit there you say wait a minute israel member state of the african union there is a reason why palestine is a member state of the african union you know yasser arafat when it was well i don't think there was any african union meetings ever missed and we on the african continent we understood the struggle of the palestinians the way they lost their land so the countries you know i've always started with israel because it's very insidious what they've done because uh the tools that they sold to african nations particularly in the congo the pegasus affect the people we know you know human rights activists uh ended up in jail because the congolese government spied on them right they said that they were buying these two to spy to find people who are trying to destabilize the nation uh terrorists and so on and then you're finding young congolese human rights activists asking for a free and fair election in jail because of that one million dollar license that they're spending paying nso to get pegasus on people's phones to be able to spy on their whatsapp and other tools so i always try to denounce that there and all these other nations but for the foreseeable future africa is the last frontier like it or not we have what the world needs and i like the chinese approach the chinese understand that africans are human beings the chinese understand with 1.3 or 1.5 billion people you must live on this small planet it's not big people forget the planet is small right this small planet called earth we must live together and use what we have together so china comes and says you are on the african continent you are congolese you have lithium you know which has been uh just discovered we have one of the largest reserves of lithium now in manon just discovered about two years ago now right nitia my cobalt is there can we have your litter i will say yes so how much you want to pay chances well i may build your road and you give me your lithium this is a trade that we've done for thousands of years the whole silk roads china already was trading with africa we were already practicing this uh voting system where you get something and like i give you something and give you something back a mutually no it's a mutually beneficial trade something that like europe never had anything to offer which is why there could be no mutually beneficial trade exactly now with that situation today when you're looking at the western engagement they are declining and not able to compete and they specific for the us they using military to compete which is not going to work right because we are i keep saying it africans are human beings but with uh the rest of their mind knowing that they want to develop come to the table you have tables to sell i'll buy your table we i have diamond to sell i'll sell you my diamonds but don't come and kill my family members and they impose the leader for me to sell my diamond at 50 less no and they complained because someone gave me the hundred percent value and called the person who bought it a hundred percent value the new colonizer which is an insult to those who live under colonialism right especially that's the thing that always frustrated me when i hear people talking about china is colonizing africa do you have you watch the films i'm not talking documentary there are footages of congolese being beaten by first public because they went downtown and they did not have a permit allowing them in their own country to go down and that's merging colonialism we congolese did not decide to give albert einstein and his project the manhattan project we didn't decide to give them the uranium the belgians did and as they took it they caused destruction of apocalyptic proportion that would not have never happened if we were not colonized right so as we see that they say that you cannot compare what china is doing to colonialism we may try to figure out what's the term of what what is china doing we know it i know it concretely china is doing development infrastructure china is providing support china is providing support to africans and in exchange they're getting the resources and you know oh sorry go ahead can we make sure that in the process of this trade we are able to benefit not the local elite and the bourgeoisie but the people that's the struggle that africans have to wage and that's not actually a battle for chinese it's a battle for us africans to be able to get the proper representation so we've had a bit of a technical difficulty and we can't figure out how to resolve it i've lost kambala's camera but kambale is still with us so kambali i want to thank you for coming on and for this very amazing discussion uh i actually learned so much just very quickly can you tell people where they can follow your work to learn more about the work of the center uh for research on the congo our website is c e r e c k dot org information on the congo uh friends of the congo provide information about what's happening up-to-date information on the situation and political analysis most importantly young congolese on the ground are now waiting for the world to change we are working and we are trying to unite with those on the outside mobilizing and organizing so this october i hope people can join us for congo week every year it takes place since 2008 and they can sign up at congo week.org to participate in this um historic event that we do every year uh do something in your community for the congo you sing sing a song about the kongo airport write a poem you're a journalist cover the congo so the third week of october this year pause and lift the story of the congolese people in your communities congo week.org is the website wonderful and i will be sure to link to that in the description kambale thank you so much for giving me so much of your time once again and hopefully we can have you on again soon and hopefully see you when we have you on thank you always i'll be glad to come back

Channel: BreakThrough News

Views: 442,867

Keywords: rania khalek dispatches, rania khalek, dispatches, Kambale Musavuli, africa, nato, china africa, china and africa, breakthrough news, bt newsroom

Id: mtSWEwwkX0s

Length: 67min 12sec (4032 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 02 2022