>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, DC. >> It is such a great pleasure to
be sitting next to this gentleman. I've spent a fair amount
of time today going through some treasures
in the collection. >> Yeah. >> And it was fun to
see your reaction to those including some things
you haven't seen in decades. >> Yeah. >> Some not in 50 years. But even before we start, I'd
like to acknowledge and thank Reva and David Logan Foundation for underwriting this entire
residency of Abdullah Ibrahim. They also were generous in supporting the Maria
Schneider residency. So we are grateful to
them, and we're happy that you all came tonight. So -- [ Applause ] And it occurs to me that there are
many different ways you can learn about music. These days literally
you can go to school. You can go to conservatory. You can learn your instrument and
spend your entire life practicing. You can read books. You can go to live performances,
but for me one of the greatest ways to learn about music is
to talk to the masters, and we are very fortunate
that we have one of these masters with
us here tonight. I want you to help
me Abdullah Ibrahim. [ Applause ] So I think I'd like to start
just by asking, you know, I alluded to the fact that that
we had a session this afternoon, and we looked at some of the
treasures, and I wondered if there were any things in
particular that resonated with you, that really caught your attention? >> Well all of them, all of them. There's a narrative in
the experience locked into the [inaudible] and
Mingus and Eric Dolphy, Duke. I was fortunate that could
interact with these great musicians. I haven't been in this part
of the world for some time, almost 20 years as
we did our last tour. The United States is gratifying and
it is quite a wonderful experience, almost a step back in
time, but that time in fact being brought
to this present moment. And a lot of the music that I
looked at is more like the things that we forgot to follow up. Especially as a composer you are
always left with residual stuff that needs to be updated and
upgraded if you go back to it. Some of the things that we
[inaudible] we call it the spur of the moment and some
years later you begin to really understand what it means. So it's this wonderful
present that we've been given to understand what we
experienced in the past in this moment, this present moment. When Jay and myself, Jay is my
colleague from Johannesburg, when we, after we spent
what was four hours -- >> We spent four hours. >> Yes. We went back to the
hotel and we had promised that we would celebrate
with green tea. But the celebration
still hasn't happened. [laughter] Just a little [inaudible] of this wonderful experience
that [inaudible]. >> I should mention and share
the fact the fact that one of the extraordinary parts
of our collection had to do with the copyright office and the
fact that musicians and composers who registered their work before
the 1970s would literally write out the composition on what
is called a lead sheet. It's basically a skeleton
of the piece. And this is how you registered
your work for copyright. You would send in the lead
sheet with a little feed, and then the copyright
office stamps it, and we had literally
millions of these. Many of them are stored in our
warehouse out in Landover, Maryland. And so because I knew Abdullah
was coming, I spent an afternoon in the copyright office just
looking for anything either under the name Dollar Brand, which was his original professional
name, or Abdullah Ibrahim. The things for Abdullah Ibrahim, he
registered with sound recordings, but the things under Dollar Brand's
name we have maybe 15 or 20 of them. >> Some of them, yeah. >> And they're in his hand,
which to me is always revealing, to see somebody's handwriting. And so it was an indescribable
pleasure for me to bring this envelop, to have him
sit down, and I said, take a look. And we pulled out these sheets
that he hasn't seen in 50 years. >> Yeah. >> And those songs, some of you, some of these songs are very
well known and some not at all. >> Yeah, not at all, yeah. >> Some things you
hadn't even recorded. >> No. >> So, can you give me a sense. I know you tend to
live in the moment. You know, we talked about that. But at the same time, what kind
of memories go through your mind when you see a composition
you wrote 50 years ago, and there's a story behind each one. I've got to say, it's a document
that was created or initiated at that time, and something
that we have to follow through. It was imbedded in there as --
it was 50 years ago, there was a, I wrote the music either about
an event or about people, and there's always this expansion
of understanding what it is that we captured at that time. So seeing the music
today, some of the, most of those songs I
hardly play anymore, but, and then when you showed me some
of the Ellington [phonetic] things that we wrote, at that
time in '60 and from '59, we were already working on nontraditional harmonies
and rhythms. And when I met Ornette
[phonetic] and of course Ellington when I met Ornette and Don Cherry, they really endorsed what we
had been, or I had been writing. It was like in the late '50s. So seeing the charts today says to
me that these are works that need to be revisited and maybe completed. Is that what the charts
were actually just like, were lead sheets, so it
doesn't give us an idea of how [inaudible] symbols. So I would like to take
some of the songs and just of restructure them
[inaudible] also write for, to, as an anchor curriculum
for younger musicians. And then include these
works that other composers, like Ellington's Such Sweet Thunder. There's a wealth of,
there's a wealth of, there's a wealth of material. Most of [inaudible] things that we
haven't touched, so we practice, we used to practice 24/7, now
it's like 25/8 [laughter]. You've given me a task. >> You know, one thing that occurred
to me, just gauging your reaction to things today, these compositions of yours are born out
of your experience. These are not abstract
feelings that are evoked. These are events that occur
in your life or people that you know, is it still that way? >> Sure. When I was in high school,
my composition teacher gave me, people in your life give you
little treasures that you keep, and it guides you on the path,
and my composition teacher in high school told me that
when you write about something, write about the things
that you know best. Right? And the things that
I know best is the people that I interact or
events that happen. So in that sense, I think
the stories and music and the sound then become unique. So I really don't have to compete
or challenge [inaudible], yeah. >> Yeah. So, I don't know how many
people here understand or know much about Abdullah's past and the
context that he comes out of as a creative pianist,
composer, and band leader, but so let's talk just a little
bit about that if you don't mind. You were born when and where. >> 1954, Cape Town. >> And Cape Town at that time,
your mother played piano? >> My mother and grandmother
were both pianists in the church, AME Church. >> Okay. And so you grew up
with a piano in the house? >> Yeah. At that time the instrument
of choice [inaudible] was a piano. So many people had
pianos in their homes. Some were pianos. Some used to be pianos. But there was a piano there. >> Did you take to it naturally or did your mother have
to tell you to practice? >> Not really because there
was an instrument in the house, so soon I became curious
and started, you know, on the instrument. And my grandmother realized,
and she sent me to a, to the local school teacher
to learn how to read music. That opened up a complete
another world for me. Not just musically but in
terms of experiencing global or international dynamic. >> Because you were hearing
music from all over the world? >> Yeah, because Cape Town
was very unique in that field because of its geographical
position. >> It's a port city. >> It's a port city, but you know
it's the gateway between west and east, you know,
between Europe and the east, so a lot of shipping,
ships came through. So it has a very, very deep history. We have perhaps people
from all over the world. From Malaysia there were slaves and
political prisoners who were brought to Cape Town because they fought
the invading Dutch [inaudible], and it became a battleground
before between east and west. Cape Town when the Dutch landed
there and then the British, there was conflict with
the British and the Dutch, especially during the Crimean War when Cape Town became
a very strategic point. The first people from our
research, the first people who came there were
Venetians and Arabs. It was a very unique place. So, at an early age we were exposed to this world culture
and world music. Indian music, Chinese music. People were in the community. So if we look at our relationship
with the rest of the world, for example, not specifically the
west but the east, one of the things that we are researching now is
the narrative Admiral Zheng He, who was a 14th or 15th
century Chinese explorer. And from China he did
about seven expeditions. He had 300 ships. The mother ship was the size of
a football field and unsinkable. He had doctors and scribes, and he
did to India and then back to China. And then he came around to
India, to the, to Arabia and then down the coast of East Africa. And from the upper East Africa
in Kenya, the people still at this day they have memories
and recollection of this armada that came to, that came to the east,
I mean the east, east of Africa. So there has been a considerable
interaction, you know. This was 13th or 14th century. We suspect that he
rounded the [inaudible]. So during the years we've been
researching this connection with ourselves and
internationally, one of the things that we researched, researching
Venice, because Venice at that point was the
center of [inaudible]. And there was a young
Venice, explorer from Venice who traveled parallel with Admiral
Zheng He, and then he went to Venice and the Pope requested a
meeting and told the Pope all of his experiences, and he
drew a map of the world. This was the first map
[inaudible], and this was the map that Columbus is thought
to have used, but this was from General Zheng He. So a narrative, a narrative
[inaudible] and especially in South Africa is a very, very, very broad in perspective
with world [inaudible]. So we were influenced by all
of these cultures [inaudible]. And so writing the music
was, some say write about the things that you know best. >> So as you're growing up, you're
hearing music on the street. >> Yes. >> You're hearing live performance. Are you hearing radio? Music on radio? >> Yeah. We listened
to the radio programs. There was one program from
Lorenzo Marks because everything for us was monitored
during the regime. You know, there were things that
were banned, but we had, as always, we have young people who
are very resourceful, so everything that was banned
we had access to it in some way. [laughter] So we had radio and one
of the radio programs was the Voice of America with Willis Conover. And we corresponded to
that, corresponded with him, and when he passed away, when we came to New York,
I met his [inaudible]. So it was through radio,
jazz programs but, I mean, you know in South Africa,
if you don't understand in South Africa we have
nine different nations with different language
and different cultures. I was fortunate that I lived you
know every way in South Africa, so I was able to absorb some,
you know, some of this culture. Radio, one of the first things
that I heard jazz was on the radio. But also at that time we had
ice cream, ice cream vans that would go around the town. >> The ice cream man, yeah. >> Yeah, they used to Louis Jordan
and that's why -- [laughter]. >> That's a pretty [inaudible]. >> Ice cream man. >> I like that. >> So that's when I
heard Louis Jordan. I thought, I don't know who this
person was who made that selection, and that got us interested in him
especially because Louis Jordan was like a precursor to Johnny
Hutchinson [inaudible] right? And it resonated with us
because he was also very close to our tradition. Piano, boogie woogie. [laughter] >> Yeah. So when did you
start to attempt to play jazz? >> It was in the early
[laughter], apparently the word got around that there was
this young piano player, and these limousines used
to pull up to our house. Again, these young resourceful
people with no means of visible, visible means of support would
ask me if I would like to play for their concert or
their vocal group. And then my grandmother said,
well, what are going, I was about, first gig was about when I
was 13 or 14 years of age. And I used to play for vocal groups. You know, based on like the deeper
the voice, and they copied this but it was traditional [inaudible]. >> These would be popular songs -- >> Very popular. >> Or religious songs or -- >> Well we played for
everything [inaudible] -- >> Band songs, yeah. >> Yeah, we would play in church and then Saturday night
you do your thing, Friday night, and Sunday in church. We played all the music. >> So you were telling us earlier
tonight about your first group, something about tuxedo, a group? >> Yeah, the first big band that I
played in when I was about 16 years of age was a big band because at that time the big bands
abounded in South Africa. >> Yeah. >> And in Cape Town
there were two big bands. The one I played with was
called the Tuxedo Slickers. >> Tuxedo Slickers. >> And the theme, the theme
song was Tuxedo Junction. >> Erskine Hawkins. >> Erskine Hawkins, yeah. >> Right. >> So we had this broad
experience of all music from Britain, Africa, America, yeah. >> The east? >> Yeah. >> So I suppose most
people's perception of South African popular culture,
I'm talking about internationally, is all tied to this
brutal racist regime that imposed an apartheid system. And I wonder how that regime dealt
with jazz, so what did it represent to the regime and what did jazz
represent to the musicians? >> Well we had really
unique mentors. They preferred to remain
totally anonymous. They'd tell us we will teach you
but don't tell anybody about us. These are unsung mentors
in our communities. Incredible people. Very knowledgeable. So these were our mentors, and at
an early age they made us understand that this was not, whatever
the regime was trying to tell it was, it
was not really true. That we were dealing
with a human condition, which you had to transcend. And so at an early age
it was impressed on us that it was imperative
that we should recognize that they are not our teachers,
they were not our teachers. My great grandmother, [inaudible]
we do not have interaction with the bushman people,
never fought a war. The call themselves
the harmless people. Because we seem to resolve things. So whatever the regime
attempted to put into our heads to make us believe
that this was going to be nonconflict, we understood. And our leadership also knew. It was like Mandela, this
is what the narrative that was happening [inaudible] and not what they were telling
us we were supposed to be and what we were supposed
to be doing. So we understood that
they are not our teachers and that they cannot choose
the battlefield for us. >> But at the same time, they were
able to control your movement, for example, where you
went, how you could work, what kind of music
you could perform. >> Oh sure. Who we should play with. You had to get a special
permit for musicians, you know, [inaudible] ethnic group
they are, but we understood that it was totally, not
even unethical, it was, it was not correct
because in the scheme of things you can't throw
anything out of the universe. Where would you put it? [laughter] So no matter where, no matter where they tried
to move us, [inaudible]. >> Was it dangerous
for you to play jazz? >> It was dangerous,
what they perceived to be dangerous [laughter]. We would, everybody
was dangerous to them. Because their plan was to
take away our identity, not just our ethnic identity
but our human identity, you see, and make us believe that
things can be solved through brutality, and we refused. We refused. And that was the power [inaudible]. >> Did you choose to play jazz just because you liked the
music aesthetically, or were you trying
to make a statement? >> Never making a statement. What should I make
a statement about? What shall I say? [laughter] We understood and even
up to the day that our goal is to perfect whatever it is that
we are doing and nothing more. One of the bushman elders
told us, I said to him, you know, humanity we are at loss. We need water and we need wisdom. So he said to me, that is a very
interesting analogy that you draw, and he said, in the infinite
there is always conflict between the planets and the
stars, but it has to be like this because this is the order,
and it takes a long time to maintain this order
and there's a lot of suffering involved
to maintain this order. And God put us on this earth
to maintain this order. And it takes a long
time and suffering, but eventually humanity
will have to accept it. If you're like me, we were
given the task to tell people about this order, whether they laugh
at us or whether they push us aside. And wherever you are,
I'm holding your hand. You are my brother. And this is the message
that was there from our mentors and our elders. We are representatives here
to maintain this order. And we will not follow them
because it's not correct. >> Do you believe in fate? >> We say patience is to faith
what head is to the body. >> Yeah, let me think about that. >> Patience -- >> Yeah. >> -- is to faith -- >> Yes. >> -- what head is to the body. Faith is actually patience. >> So -- >> [inaudible] patience. >> Are things in your mind, in your
belief, are things predetermined? Were you fated or destined to
be a musician, to be a composer? To live in the world? >> [inaudible] banned
everything but we read everything. >> Ah, really. >> We experienced everything. I mean in the same case, [inaudible]
we started reading everything. I mean everything from Shakespeare
to Marx and Hagel and [inaudible]. We went through all of them. And [inaudible] the
western philosophers, the process was this idea of
predestination and free will. So how can you be predestined, be
predestined, but you have free will. How does this work? Because if you are
predestined, you can choose. If it's predestined, what is the
conflict if you have free will. But the Lord's prayer
says thy will be done. So everything is predestined. Either you believe it or not. This is where the separation comes. Because if you say that
it's not predestined, you are saying that
God does not know. And we were taught like from little
children to live your destiny. And when you understand
your destiny, you understand what other
people live their destinies so we no conflict with all this. There is no reason to fight. >> So if you don't mind, let
me resume the chronology. In early '60's, probably around
'62, things become much worse in South Africa, and you
choose to go into exile. >> Yeah. >> Was this just a gradual
decision that you came to or was there an event or something
that precipitated this decision? >> Yeah, for all of us there were
events, like in the late '50's and '60's they became paranoid. You see, because they knew that
change was going on because, and especially with the music
that we played at that time. Our parent, our grandparents
were a little more accommodating to understand that,
but the '60's came and the collective understanding was that we are not afraid
of you anymore. We have no fear of you, because
before there was the fear. And especially with the so-called
[inaudible] young people refused to study in African's language,
and I took to the streets and everything was we have
no fear for your anymore. And that was the beginning,
the beginning of the end, and then they started
reacting very violently. For me personally, because everybody
understood this, there would be that knock on your door at four
o'clock in the morning, you know, and nobody would see you after that. So, they came to me in the
morning [inaudible] jail, and the next morning I appeared
in court and I was charged with a traffic violation, and
they were going to take me to some outpost there where I
was supposed to pay the fine. But as I walked towards the
court, the station commander, who was Africana, he said to
me, are you not little Ibrahim, the jazz pianist, he
said what are doing here. So I explained. So he pulled me out. >> He recognized you. >> Yeah, he pulled me out. You see, then I said wait a minute,
there's something deeper than this. [laughter] Anyway so I explained
to him, and he said okay, we'll try and fix it for you, all right. Then he was, well come
into my office. Then he called this other
policeman, Paul Jango [phonetic], this was his name, Paul Jango. And we all feared Jango
because he was very brutal. So Jango came in, and then the
commanding officer said to Jango, [inaudible] play nice music. Hey Jango, why don't you
arrange a nice party for us? [laughter] Get some girls
[laughter], get a [inaudible] because if [inaudible] this
would be the end of me. So but my people bailed me
out, and the next day I got out of South Africa
because they were coming. >> And where did you go? >> I had a friend who invited
us over to Switzerland. >> You went to Switzerland? >> Switzerland. >> And Zurich? >> Zurich, yeah. >> Yeah, okay. And at what point, is that
where you met Duke Ellington? >> Yeah. >> Talk a little bit about the
circumstances and what it led to. >> Zurich at that time,
when we landed there, it was the coldest
winter in 60 years. Whew. If we were headed right back. We stayed there, and some
of students, they were very, very helpful, helped us
get and accommodation. And then a lot of American
musicians came through on concerts. I had a lot of them there,
[inaudible], Jazz Messengers. >> Art Blakey. >> Art Blakey, yeah. [inaudible] That's where
I met Wayne Shorter. >> Wayne Shorter. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Freddie, Freddie Hubbard. >> And you start to meet more
and more American jazz musicians? >> Yeah, jazz musicians. We had, I had this gig at
this little club in Zurich. Then we had [inaudible] and so
but the club owner didn't want us to have a night off to go there,
so my fiance, my wife [inaudible], now she has passed on, Sathima,
she went to the concert, and we were playing, in fact they
were busy closing up the club when she walked in with Ellington
and the whole entourage just come. I said, what? [laughter] She convinced
Ellington to come and listen to us, and he heard us and then two days
later he took us to Paris to record for Reprise, Reprise Records. And on that session, there
was, Billy Strayhorn was there. Stray sat on the recording. So but before the session started,
he asked Sathima, so what do you do? >> He didn't know she
was a vocalist. >> No. >> You know that he was married at
that time to Sathima Bea Benjamin. >> Benjamin. >> Who was a great South
African vocalist, and so -- >> She said I sing. >> And he said, okay,
we'll start with you. [laughter] >> In the studio? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, I said, what
do you want to do? >> And she said, I Got it Bad. >> So, he looks at
me, will do you do it? >> I said no, maestro,
this is your song. So I said okay, let me do it. He said what key. I said B. He said, okay, you do it. [laughter] I said you
got [inaudible]. So they recorded, they recorded her
and some of people, Billy Strayhorn, what is the piece that he recorded
last time it was recorded it was by Ivy Anderson. >> I Got it Bad. >> Yeah. >> Bad and Good. >> And Strayhorn playing song, yeah. And this was done for
Reprise Records business, Frank Sinatra's label. >> So Frank Sinatra
basically hired Duke Ellington to be a producer or
an A and R person? >> A and R, yeah, for Reprise. >> For his label. >> Yeah. >> And you were one of the
first people they signed. >> Yeah, the first one. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And so what is Ellington
like in the studio? Is he relaxed? Is he controlling? What's his personality? >> Very, very relaxed. [laughter] I learned a lot about
recording, at recording session, because I mean when you look at
recording studies in South Africa, you know, they, the process of recording was [inaudible]
little thing that he said to us, and this totally, totally
relaxing, relaxing man. I remember so one of the pieces,
my drummer like to drum sometimes to the tempo, if the
tempo starts like this, it would end up like this. [laughter]. >> That's typical. >> So, yes. So I said to do that I think
we should record it again. I said well why? He was well, you know,
the drummer picked up the tempo and I just leave it. That's folk. [laughter] >> Exactly. >> So, yeah. [inaudible] second take
or a third take, you know. What is it? Unless it's a technical
mistake, you know. >> For that you were
working with your trio or -- >> Yeah, my trio. >> Okay. >> We had, and Svend Asmussen -- >> The violinist. >> The violinist, yes [inaudible]. >> Yeah, great player. >> He recorded, a lot of people
around there at that time in Paris, and this was at the period when
he did the famous Paris concert. So, we were blessed. >> And so I assume that
when that record comes out and literally the title is something
like Duke Ellington presents -- >> Presents, yeah. >> -- Dollar Brand Trio, that must
have done something for your career? >> Yeah. We didn't
realize until afterwards, but talking to musician
especially afterwards and getting the impression of
how this album really [inaudible] because it was something that they,
they never heard about or thought about to go into, in terms of
composition and in terms of concept, just go in another direction
and open up everything away from a static total center. And Duke asked me, one of my songs
was called Sunday the Seventh, and he liked the song,
and he said to me, why don't you arrange
for a big band. And everytime when he
came to the [inaudible] and asked me, did you finish that? And I was absolutely terrified
to write something for Duke, and I said, I didn't write it. He says, why? I said, I'm afraid
I'll make a mistake. Well then tear it up and
write another one he said. [laughter] Well I never
attempted it [inaudible]. >> But there are good
mistakes, right? >> [inaudible]. In the end when I studied budo
[phonetic] and martial arts, we realized there is no mistake. There is no such thing as a mistake. A mistake is just something
that occurs that you have to resolve whether it's in
music or whether in your life. So, my Japanese budo master
says when you make a mistake, make good mistake [laughter]. >> By the way, I know you have
studied martial arts for many years. Are you studying Aikido? What are you, what specific art. >> There's only, well this idea of martial arts is totally
a new concept to people. The term in Japan is budo, and budo
is the calligraphy, is two words, so one in bu, which
means stop fighting. >> Stop fighting. >> Bu, do, and do is the
day, the way of not fighting. That nothing is worth fighting. The idea is the challenge
with the self. So the principle is
that you do not try to overcome others,
you become unbeatable. And this is also the concept of
playing the music, the way that, that's why you keep on
practicing and practicing, right? In order to reach that [inaudible]. >> So if you practice enough
maybe you become unbeatable? >> My teacher says
budo not for fighting. If you want to fight,
use gun, quicker. [laughter] >> Yeah, I see. Uh-huh. >> So the -- for us the
practice is 95 percent, performance is 5 percent. Because the essence and
the understanding lies in the continuous repetition
in practice. This is where you begin
to understand yourself because music is just
your means to an end. It's not an end. >> Yes, you said yesterday
it's pointing. >> Yeah, like language, you see,
language is a finger pointing at the moon, but it's not the moon. >> It's an illusion. >> Pardon? It's an illusion. So you're dealing with what
is hidden and what is obvious. So for many people in a
culture you have about people of 90 percent obvious
and 10 percent hidden. For us it's 10 percent
obvious and 90 percent hidden. And so you understand
with all the jazz masters that this is the way to attainment. >> So when you're talking
about practice, what are you referring
to specifically? Are you talking about technique,
being able to play cleanly, evenly at the keyboard, or are
you talking about something else? >> You know, if you're a
piano player, you know finally after all these years I
bought, I could afford to buy a Fazioli grand piano. >> Oh, nice piano. >> Yeah because the studio,
the factory is just up the road from where we are generally. So finally I got a Fazioli piano. Now if you have a piano,
you need a home. [laughter] >> It helps. >> Yeah, I move stuff
all around, you know. So finally, my fiance, she's
a medical doctor [inaudible] so now I have a grand piano. So now the problem comes with
practice with the neighbors. [laughter] >> Oh. >> Yeah, it was always a problem. >> Oh. >> You know, those years we
tried to sound proof the rooms and you had one of these, something that they put the eggs
in, you remember? >> Yeah, egg cartons. >> [inaudible] work. >> Yeah, sound proofing. >> So, we were thinking, well
how are we going to do this, how are going to sound
proof this room. And then my fiance said, why
don't you speak to Fazioli because they're working with Yamaha
and they've created this attachment, it attaches to the piano, but you
put the ear phones on, you see, so it's still the sound
of the piano. It's not a Mickey Mouse
sound, you know. So you [inaudible] and
you play acoustically, or you put the ear phones on. So, the reason why I got
is because my neighbor, when I started practicing, he said
to me, oh that's wonderful playing, but can you play a complete song? [laughter] I said to my
fiance, get the ear phones. Because the practice is the
principle of repetition. So like with everything,
if you want to perfect it, it comes through repetition. And sometimes it's
very, very boring, but you begin to understand
the things that emerge through this constant repetition. Because there are no secrets. There are only basics. >> Are you a disciplined person? >> That's a big word. Yeah, yeah. >> Organized? >> Yes. People might not
see it like that, you know. [laughter] I always
don't play anything but I have these things lying
around the floor, don't move this. The hotel room, in the
hotel room when I stay more for three days I leave the do
not disturb sign on the door. Don't come in here. You know, because the
maid wouldn't understand and move it, move it from the floor. So that is my, that is my order. >> Let me ask you a little bit
about your process as a composer. Are you someone who constantly
works to create build a composition, or does it ever just come
to you fully realized? >> Sometimes it comes
fully realized [inaudible], and I have no explanation
of how it comes. I have a song called, a composition
called "Did You Hear that Sound." And it was just before day break,
and in a dream this man comes to me and says to me, come to the piano. So, if somebody tells you in
a dream, you better do it. So I go to the piano,
and he says play this. [ Imitating Composing Music ] And then it disappears, you know. So I went to the piano,
and there was the complete, the complete changes of the song. In our tradition we refer to it as
transmission, but T, R, A, N, C, E. The trance, transmission. [laughter] >> I get it. >> Yeah. And that is how knowledge
is imparted from the elders to us also is through this process, because it's not an intellectual
process, it's something that happens on another [inaudible]. >> You mentioned earlier that
when you are looking at some of your older works that
you hadn't seen in years and hadn't been performing in years
that you might like to revisit them, and I wonder if when you do
revisit an older composition, are you tempted to tinker with it? Do you change it in some
ways, or is it fixed? >> Well, this project that
I have in South Africa, I call it ancient tradition
new relevance. Because no matter what it is,
if you wrote it 50 years ago, it's an ancient tradition but
there is new relevance to it. Everything has new relevance
because for us there's no past. There's no future. There's only now. Right? And that's why we -- jazz music is [inaudible] because
you're dealing with this instant, and it's also the mindset
and tradition of the ancients that you're dealing with now. Art Blakey never allowed
his musicians to bring music to the stage, written music. You had to memorize everything. And so if you, for example,
you're dealing with, only dealing with written music,
you are dealing with the past. Something that has been recorded
in the past, but it's now. >> So when you write a new work for
one of your bands, let's say Ekaya, do you actually hand out the music or do you teach it to
them for their ear? >> How I do it is maybe I write
something but just sketch it out. I keep it hidden. Then I go into the studio,
and they're busy setting up. Then I start playing
the new composition, and then some don't
hear what I'm playing. And then the tenor player
will say, hey, what was that? You know, [inaudible]. Then we expand from there. Something that I learned from Monk. Monk was recording, and
somebody who worked in the studio with Charlie Rouse, so they were
rehearsing, and so I said to Monk, Monk when do you want
me to take a solo? And Monk said just find a nice
place [inaudible] [laughter]. And I said, wow, nothing
technical about it. Is this what you learn? We learn from the masters how
you can convey what, you know, your compositions to musicians. So you give them the freedom
to express themselves. >> I know you've spoken about
the healing power of music. >> Yeah. >> Do you think all
music is healing? >> Well -- -- everything is beautiful. It's only our individual
perception that says it's not. [inaudible] the Japanese,
Japanese tradition and culture that says this concept of
finding beauty in decay. >> Yes. >> Finding beauty in decay, as if something is old,
you have to remove it. But in our tradition, there
is no, there is no past. There is no past. There is no for the record. It is now. So there's this object that you
see whether it's a human being or whether it's a tree or whatever,
that point, from our perception, it is old, but the perception,
excuse me, this is a, this decay, this [inaudible] life, whatever. So to see the beauty,
see the beauty in decay. >> Yeah, because if we
are conditioned and used to throwing things
away as they get old, what do we do when
we start to decay? >> We don't decay,
we just get smarter. [laughter] >> Oh, you think? >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Fully. [laughter]
That's what Bruce Lee said. >> Ah, yes. >> Whatever is when you get old and you can't fight
anymore and you get smarter. [laughter] >> Does, you were talking about
practice and how beneficial that can be, and I wonder
whether practice enables us to meet certain unexpected
challenges in performance or in life. >> It deals with your ego. >> Oh, we talked about
ego the other day. >> Yeah, it deals with your ego because through practice
there's always a challenge. We he says, oh, you don't know it. You know. So it challenges
the ego, constantly. >> And this ego, I think you
referred to as the whisper. >> The whisper, sure. The ego, the ego is always there. >> Always whispering. >> That's why the stage is
the most dangerous place in the world, performance based. >> Why is that? >> There's a whisperer. When I play a concert and when
I get up and there's applause from audience and I
acknowledge their applause, and the whisperer says to me, hey
that was a great concert you played. [laughter] Then I said to him,
I only do this through grace. Then he says, wow,
you're really humble. [laughter] So you are under attack,
you're under attack constantly. So through practice you are actually
engaging and challenging with self because the gateway to
knowledge is past the whisperer. Because the whisperer's job
is to keep you away from it, keep you away from the knowledge
of the self or whatever knowledge, so if you can understand, I never
understood when I started engaging with this and I did
not have any work and then my teacher told me you
better your whisperer to work, otherwise you will starve. >> The whisperer is like
the lions at the gate. >> The meat cake. [laughter] >> Okay, sure, why not. I have many more questions I'm
dying to ask him, but I think some of you may also have questions, and we certainly could
entertain those questions now. If anybody has anything
you'd like to ask Abdullah, in the back of the room
there's a microphone. >> Good evening. I appreciate your artistry
and your humanity. My question is, are you looking
to explore music scores some more? I really enjoyed the Chocolat
music score that you did. You are you looking to
do more music scores. >> Yeah. Movie scores. Chocolat was Claire
Denis, the director. This was her first film
as an independent director because she worked with some
vendors on Paris, Texas. And so she asked me to do the music
for her, but she had been listening to the music after she was, when she
was filming, or getting the concept. We are working on several new ones. One of the, one of the
ideas that we are working with the filmmaker now is to do
the same process that Miles did with Ascension to the Gallows,
where there was no written score, but you show the movie and
you improvise and play on it. So busy with, we were
busy with this. Claire, what is [inaudible],
No Fear, No Die was another score
that we did for her. So films really, yeah, this
synergy that I can create between the musicians and the
film itself, so with Claire and also this new movie that
we're working on, the concept is that I suggested to her that I ascribe an instrument
to a character. You see, so for example, we
have Rickie Ford, you know, because he has that temperament, you
know, locking with the character. And it works. Instead of actually
writing, you know, the film score -- are
you a filmmaker? >> Ah, no I'm not. >> Okay. >> Who else has a question? We have right in the center here. If you want to pass
that microphone down. >> Good evening, thank you. I wanted to ask you a question
about sort of your musical and spiritual roots being in the
African Methodist Episcopal Church and you've since transitioned to
Islam, and I'd like to ask you about whether or not
there's a certain time in your compositional history
where that transition is reflected and how it might have changed
your practice or your composing or anything you do musically. >> Oh. Some people have asked
me now to do other things, to create a musical on
my life story, you know. So, we were looking at how
do we connect this narrative chronologically [inaudible]
you do it through actual time period
with dates, you know. I said well, this has
been done so many times. As you people suggested, okay, so why don't we take the
characters, and that is the link. And I said, no, I think
the link is the spirit. Right? Because the
spirit is [inaudible], and the spirit is universal. And again, like I said,
well what happened with the [inaudible] said it was
a collective change of the spirit. So even my grandmother was
one of the founding members of the AME Church in Cape Town. It was the African
Methodist Episcopal Church out of Philadelphia [inaudible]
founder of it, and they sent bishops to Cape Town, African
American bishops, and they intermarried there. So at an early age in the AME
Church I had this Bishop Barnard, Bishop Young, and this
experience of whether, the experience in the United States. And it always has to do with not
what you think but what you feel. So for us always, always
the expression, technique, technique of me to, the
technique is there really so that you can better
tell your story. That's what the technique is about. But the communication
is through feeling. And this is at the
heart of the narrative of all people everywhere
in the world. I realized when I was a young
person that what I needed to do was to find my own voice because I
knew what everything sounded like. If I would hear a car, that's a car. If there's was sound of
a bird, that's a bird. But what was my sound? So I started researching
what is my sound. And then when you find this, then
you are unique because millions and millions of people
on this earth, and I can hear your voice
anywhere and recognize it. So the voice is our
relief on identity. >> Who else? Yes sir, in the front? >> Well, I actually, no,
no, he answered my question. I was going to ask you a
question about your spirituality because when you spoke I could
hear certain things from Islam and certain things from Christianity
and then with you going to Japan, I didn't know if some Buddhism
or Hinduism was in there, but you answered the
question when you talked about finding your own voice. >> I think, thank you so much. I think basically what
we, when we look at this, we always equate things
through religion, you see. We equate it through spirit,
you know, the spirituality of it and not the exterior dynamics,
because they're all the same with little differences
here and there, the narrative has been changed,
but it's basically the same. And some of those things
are imbedded, for example, in the spiritual. I did some changes to the spiritual,
some people don't like it, but one of the things is -- as you
know, we're jazz musicians, right, because you [inaudible]
play the changes. You know, that's why I started
writing my own compositions because I said I am going
through my own changes [laughter], why should I be worried about
playing somebody else's changes. Well [inaudible] you've got
a harp, I've got a harp, all God's children got harp, when
I get to heaven I'm going to play on my harp but only with the
guys who know the changes. [ Laughter ] That makes sense [inaudible]. So we don't perceive religion
or nations or tribes or colors. What we have been given, the
spirit within us, hopefully. >> Right in front. >> Thank you, for me Gil Scott Heron in the early '70's
was an important voice to bring me some awareness
to South Africa. Did you get a chance to ever
meet him and collaborate with him since he was somewhat crossover. >> Who was that? >> Gil Scott Heron. >> No, I remember when Gil Scott,
we had been planning to do, when he was at Johannesburg, what
is it, Cape Town, what is it called? [inaudible] yeah we
had to be thought about doing a collaboration
with [inaudible]. What a great musician. There were a lot of open [inaudible]
with that song, what was it called? Johannesburg? >> Johannesburg, exactly. >> Yeah. So there were many
musicians around that time. Some of them didn't get the
exposure but were involved in supporting the struggle. Because, you know, remember
like the late 50s, you know, there was a great international. One was like [inaudible]
change with many, many things. Globally. And we were almost
sort of like at the center, the center of it, you
know, at the beginning of the liberation of Africa. You know, many things have changed. So we as young people at that time,
as musicians, we were involved in this change, and so when we
were living in South Africa, living in the township, you
see, I mean we had everything. From Shakespeare sonnets
to Russian poets to things fall apart
from [inaudible]. It was an opening, I guess maybe
the more you impress people the more they want to go out, so yeah. >> I assume you keep up with
what's happening in the world. >> Yeah. >> Do you look at the news? >> Sure. >> Do you think things are
coming together or falling apart. >> It's the same. It's our only perception, you know, whether it's falling
apart or whether -- >> But what is your perception? >> There's no past, there's
no future, there's now. So most of the conflicts that
we see are things from the past. I think -- and so for me this
concept of playing jazz music, okay let me put it this way. I worked with symphony orchestras
and philharmonic orchestras. There are 90 musicians. I say, anybody want to take a solo? No. Why? We're afraid. What are you afraid of? We're afraid we'll make a mistake. But jazz music is, the concept is
the concept of entrepreneurship. Because if you go and
look for a job, you want to know how
much you get paid. You want to know if you
get insurance, right. You want stability, but the
person that you're going to work for was somebody who took the last
hundred bucks and took a chance. So this principle of
entrepreneurship is within this concept of
the now, improvising. Right? So this is something that we
can create, and when you're talking to people in government, they said
well how do we address this issue of young people every year being
thrown out into the job market with pieces of paper and no job. [inaudible] in entrepreneurship
[inaudible] and the question is
having the fear, you see, because the devil threatens
us with poverty. >> And you always have
that whisperer. You always have your whisperer
and think you can't do it. But jazz music says
to you, we feel this. >> Who else has a question? Right there. If you want to hand
the microphone back. Okay. >> Thank you. A number of years ago I had an
opportunity to sit in a similar kind of situation with the
Library of Congress and there was an interview
with Dafnis Prieto. >> I remember that. >> He's a Cuban drummer. >> Dafnis Prieto, the Cuban drummer. >> And when I was there, I
was struck by his comment that he regretted in some way living
in New York because he was separated from the place of being
where his Cuban roots were. And I'm wondering for you
if you still have access in an authentic way to reconnect
with your place where you came from originally and how
does place change what it is that you're creating. >> You mean where I am in
South Africa for example? >> If you have access to
go back to South Africa, if there's an evolution
that's coming, something new that's coming out. Dafnis, I believe, was suggesting
that there were new ideas that were in Cuba that he was not
really able to access because in New York he was
being asked to play kind of traditional styles and couldn't
really be branching out too much. >> Yeah, I get the sense before in South Africa we have
nine different nations, and I am fortunate that
I lived in all of them, and we still accessed all of them. [inaudible] all the languages,
but we understand that -- so through the, but through the
music we have created a synergy, and this is what we are working on. We have a project called
ancient tradition, new relevance. And we acquired a farm
in northern Cape which was called a green Kalahari. We have 800 hector,
so seven kilometers by seven kilometers by 5 kilometers. We have suites underground,
water system, which comes from a very unique
underwater delta that runs under the farm [inaudible]. We have about 150 spring
[inaudible]. We have ostriches and
everything grows there. We are in the heart of solar
power that is being developed. We are in the heart of wind power
that is being developed now. We have just created a relationship
with a project called SKA, which is the Square Kilometer
Array, the [inaudible] telescope that looks into the universe. It's a one-hour drive from the
farm, they would set this up. Last year we graduated about
170 young astrophysicists. And about three hours
up from the farm, we are at the border of
Namibia and Botswana. There's the last remaining
group of bushman people who still speak the language. So we have been working
with them for years because they can transmit
this information. They're helping us with plants
and understanding the animals. They have something
called a hooday [phonetic], which we know when we grew
up, you know what it is? The root that you eat and it
cuts off the hunger center so you can go without
eating for days. I think about it down in
America, now they're created a, what you call it, a slimming pill. So we are working with them. And how we can transmit
this information through the younger generation
but also make it viable for them to be a reliable product,
new product. So the SKA [inaudible] Square
Kilometer Array project, they know about the part that you
can actually put the telescope, you can look into the universe,
you can look into the creation. So in Cape Town, for example,
they have a command center. In Cape Town they have about 50
young people [inaudible] going there you see that they are, the
console they are locked into, to monitoring the universe,
second by second. So we have, because they have a like
one-hour drive from where we are, there's a part of the project
that we brought on board. So when we are creating like they
have agreed for us to [inaudible] on telescope, because in
the [inaudible] next to us, the biggest one, the largest,
biggest business [inaudible] because there's nothing [inaudible]
there's nothing there, it's desert, it's the clearest vision
into the sky. So we are looking, we are looking
at this project, so we have, heaven, earth, and we have people,
because [inaudible] young people. So what do we say to the young
people, okay, why don't you create, write compositions about or
write music about these events. Or say even create
a product about it. So the [inaudible] animals. At the University of Johannesburg,
there's a team of scientists who have been working
on this project, you know, the dung beetle, right? We used to watch this dung beetle
when we were kids and played with it, but the dung beetle always
moves the ball backwards, right. [inaudible] sometimes he gets on
top of the ball and he [inaudible] and then he goes on again. So what they realize now
they put barriers [inaudible] because how can you find a home
with the ball going backwards. So I find that when
there's a barrier, he stops and makes his dance and then goes around the barrier
to find another way. So they understand now that during
the day, when he has to dance on top of the ball, he gets orientation,
in the day gets orientation from the sun and at
night from the Milky Way. This is the dung beetle. So, these are things that we
knew when we were children, but we didn't know the -- you
know, always the question, what, what is this, what is thing doing. So now with modern technology
we're beginning to understand. Why isn't the scope of education and
why isn't the scope of possibility for job opportunity, for work. Yeah. For one of the, one
of the ideas, and so we look at all the different animals. And you see the relationship that
the bushman people had with animals, which is like all hunter gatherers. And if you see them hunting,
hunting a deer and the process of when an animal dies, you
know, speaking to the animal and thanking it for
giving it's life, you know, for sacrificing it's life. So the idea is this not
breaking the link of the cycle. If we break the link with the
cycle, then we have disaster. In Cape Town, for example, I'm
[inaudible] have problem with me because the bees are gone, which we
know everywhere, the bees are gone. So, you know, if the
bees are not there, it means that there's
no food protection. So on the farm we know
that there are bees, though we know there is honey, we haven't found the nest,
because we see the bees. So one person suggested
we should do something. What do they call this
bee farming with the -- so we say yeah well I know guy,
the guy can bring a queen bee. I said, whoa, wait, wait right there because now you are
upsetting the natural rhythm. So to answer your question,
we've been busy for many years, and now some people are coming
on board, people in government, because they are beginning
to understand that this may be a
viable, viable idea. But it's also a way that we
think and play the music. It's organic. >> We have time for, oh,
one last one in the back. >> Yes, thank you. This has been a wonderful
experience. I'd like to revisit a question that
Larry asked about when you went into exile with kind
of a two-part question. So when you went into exile and
during that time when you were away from South Africa, how did the news
of hearing about family or friends or comrades you know being lost to the apartheid system impact your
music and playing while you were in exile, and then when apartheid
ended, and you were finally able to come home, how did being able to
return home to a new environment, a new South Africa,
that was different from what you left
impact your playing? >> The experience is
through the spirit. Cape Town is the place where
I grew up, you know, five, ten kilometers outside of Cape Town, called Kensington,
is where I grew up. And we used to have this what
they shabeans [phonetic] brothels because we were not
allowed to drink liquor. So the people they elicit
what we call them shabeans, where you could buy this liquor. Then it became a communal thing, something that is still
ongoing there where people collect
and meet socially. And there was one of these
places in Kensington. It was an old little house with
corrugated iron, and I always loved to go through the shabean to
go and drink some beer there because I had a special
feeling about this place. I didn't know what it was, but
it felt so calm and wonderful. So when we went into
exile, this was one of the recurring dreams that came. You know, this feeling
that I am back home and then you wake up to reality. So when we went back I said let
me, let me go and find this place. The first thing that [inaudible],
let me go an find this place. What is it there. So, I went, and I grew
up in the place. I drove around for a week. I couldn't find it. Up and down, up and down. So I told my teacher, and my
teacher said just try it again. So the second time I found it. And it was still an old house. It changed a bit. It was still basically
the same thing. And I said I want to make a
dealy dee [phonetic], a story, get some filmmakers and
you know write some music and tell this narrative
about this house. So I went to this house and I
said to the people, please I would like to do a film here
with some music. And they said well you need
to ask the owner of the place, and the owner of the place lived
in the street just up the way. But the grounds were massive. It was almost like to the end
of the street, the whole block, and there was this house
sitting at the back there. And then I remember from
childhood that those people in that house we never
had contact with them. They were there, but we never
saw them and it was don't -- there was no communication
with them. Anyway, so I said let
me go to this house and ask the owner there
if I can film. I was standing at the
gate, and there the guy from across the street comes
and says how you doing? What are you doing? And I said I want to shoot this
film, but they told me to come and speak to this, to the owner. He said, well you came
at the right time because I am the only one allowed
in this area who has access to this house and the family,
so I'll take you inside. So we walk into the house,
and he knocks on the door. And the door opens and
the picture that I see, I'm looking into maybe
like the 16th century. The furniture, they had the, you
know those old oval picture frames with sepia, and this woman comes
out, right, pitch black with dark, dark hair, and I look at what she's
dressed in, like 16th century. You know, I thought I was seeing
a ghost or something, you know. And she was very, very reserved. I introduced myself and said I would like to do a film [inaudible]
it's okay. So I left. I said wait a minute now. So I drive around. This was in Seventh Street, right? So I drive around in Sixth Street
because this is where we grew up. And this house, the people in
this house, we never saw them, but from Sixth Street, because
this place is like on a hill, there used to be a tunnel that
we used to play in, you see, but the tunnel at some
point was closed. So I said but this tunnel
leads into this house. Then we discovered
what it is, you see. This was a slave quarter, right. It was a slave quarter, and
that lady was a descendent from the slaves that
were taken there. So there's a slave quarter. That was what we saw when we
played as kids, this, this tunnel. So what I felt I think at that time,
why this thing resonated with me, you know, of going to this house, in our terms is the
answer was speaking to us. So what is our task now? This happened some years ago. I just left it at that. We are going to New York on -- >> Saturday. >> Saturday. We're meeting, I don't know if
you know Dr. Olastar [phonetic]. You know, she's at Brown University. She has been doing an
internship in South Africa and in Cape Town especially, looking
at the history of slavery, right. So she's actually gone to Cape Town
to where these slave quarters were and trying to research it. So we are working with her together. So, to answer your question, you
see, being in exile and coming back, it has in some ways
nothing to do with people. You see, we are just a conduit
for something that takes us there and what we are supposed to do. Right? I think what we need to
do is just accept our destiny. And through the music
hopefully we can, we can this narrative of the self. Narrative of the self
and the narrative of the history of the planet. When we speak about what Admiral
Zheng He, 14th century explorer with 300 ships, and we're
talking about the bushman people, and talking about my teacher in
Japan, and being here for example. Today Jay and myself spent four
hours with him just looking at these documents, you know,
the music that these people have. Now we are fortunate in that
we know some of them, Mingus, Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Ellington. I mean for us, they're
actually not musicians. Ellington for us, when we
grew up in South Africa, Ellington was not an American. He was a wise old man in the
village that you could go to and ask for advice, and the advice
was imbedded in the music. So the idea is just
to give acknowledgment to all these great people
who are actually mentors, and like with all mentors, they
never tell you the story straight. [laughter] You have to
go research and find out what did they actually say. >> And now we've come
more or less full circle. >> Yes? >> Yeah. >> You have one last question? This will have to be the last one. >> I want to just ask one question. I grew up listening to you
in Rhodesia, right next door, and they used to play your
music, but it's kind of like, in those days it was
kind of sensitive or back in the '70's before
our independence. I was wondering, how come
you're, you're actually singing like some [inaudible] but
how are they political and what are you really -- I don't
see any enthusiasm or popularity with the jazz in our region in
Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, [inaudible] it is something
you are doing lesser to probably cultivate
[inaudible] in southern Africa, but I don't know what is
your opinion about jazz in southern Africa, especially? >> I'm trying to understand
what you -- >> Yes, what I'm saying is what,
how do you assess the impact of jazz in our area, in southern Africa, or in Africa as a whole,
including [inaudible]. >> Jazz music? >> Yes, jazz music. Yeah, of course, we have a lot of
great artists from [inaudible]. I don't see a lot of jazz
enthusiasm in the young generation. >> Let's let him answer
the question. >> Yeah, thanks. >> You sure? Well where you from? >> From Zimbabwe. >> From? >> From Zimbabwe. >> Zimbabwe. Have you been to South
Africa recently? >> Oh, it's been a while but -- >> It's smoking man,
there's so many musicians. [laughter] >> You know South Africa has the
biggest jazz audience in the world. >> Ah, okay. >> Yeah sure. South Africa, we had the only
black-owned jazz record shop in the world. South Africa in the townships
on a Sunday, they have -- it's almost like secret societies. They meet every Sunday at people's
home, and they play jazz music, and they put them over the speakers. That's where you can go. Go into the township
and you ask anybody about Ornette Coleman or Guy Warren. You know Guy Warren? Guy Warren is a drummer from Ghana. He came to the states
and played [inaudible]. Right now, right now in South Africa
there's a wealth of young musicians who are playing jazz and
also we just created a, or started creating a
jazz, a little jazz club. All over South Africa, every
weekend in the townships, they have what they call jazz clubs. Every township in South Africa. And people get together at homes,
and then they play the speakers, and they have a little taste, but that's where you
hear all the jazz music. >> I was also asking
about the [inaudible]. >> About? >> I was also asking about the
other countries in the region, like Mozambique [inaudible]
some of the -- >> I wrote a song called Zimbabwe. >> Yeah, yeah, I know. >> I wrote a song called Mozambique. [laughter] I wrote a
song called Namibia. >> Oh yeah. >> I wrote a song called Botswana. >> Oh, okay. >> So we thank you
for that question. >> Okay, thank you. >> We thank everyone
for coming tonight. And it occurs to me that
we've come full circle. We started out by talking about
how you can learn about music from talking with the masters, and
this is a perfect example tonight. Please help me thank
Abdullah Ibrahim. [ Applause ] >> Thank you so much. [ Applause ] >> Thank you. >> This has been a presentation
of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.
