Aaron Sorkin, Matthew Weiner and more Drama Showrunners on THR's Roundtable | Emmys 2014

in every Kingdom there is a ruler and intellivision that person is the showrunner the success or failure of a series falls on the heads of these storied power players join The Hollywood Reporter as we sit down with the game changers behind this year's most buzzed-about programs on this episode we have NIC pizzolatto from true detective Vince Gilligan from Breaking Bad Carlton Cuse from Bates Motel and Bitterman from Ray Donovan Matthew Winer from Mad Men and Aaron Sorkin from the newsroom welcome to The Hollywood Reporter round tables drama show runners hello everyone welcome to The Hollywood Reporter drama showrunner roundtable I'm Stacy Wilson and Laci rose and with us we have Carlton Cuse NIC pizzolatto Vince Gilligan Matthew whiner Aaron Sorkin and Ann Bitterman I think we're gonna start off Matt you are obviously in the throes of capping off the final season many of you have been in that position before and I'm hoping you can offer perhaps starting a few Vince little advice I don't know what advice I would give enjoy it I mean this little time-honored cliche advice enjoy it while it while it's still going on which is hard this hard did no matter I mean it's not about you know it's cause you're in the middle of it and you're working your ass off and it's the way I feel like I live my whole life is always looking backward I'm not really in the moment you know so that would be it's like the goofiest most lame-ass cliche advice of all but I would say enjoy I mean I talked to you when you were Yat one point near the end there that was that was pretty hard right I was it sounded really bad yeah I was just like I was like man this is gonna suck so you know yeah but but you know it's certainly not and just enjoy I mean the experience it's it's s I mean I saw forgetting about whatever the creative part of it is which is you know at this point everybody here knows it like there's there's some autopilot there you're doing your job being busy the more work there is to do the less I think you thought about it yeah but I do remember talking to you near the end you directed your finale and then did I do that and I know that that was that you know it's the the loss is pretty overwhelming yeah I mean you just so it the in the lost doesn't hit you till till till the last day of work is done and then you're just then it's like oh man this is wow this really did end it's really over it's uh well makes me feel better it's gonna hurt so much I get to experience it twice how did you cope with just tuning out all the pressures I know you like to you know be in your own zone but how did you manage the expectations from fans from the network from yourself from the cast and crew how did you do that acupuncture that didn't I mean it was it was tough it was a you know thank God I didn't get all turned all into an insomniac because that's the escape you know Renee going to sleep you know but yeah I mean you just Gary you just got to get through it I mean it it was and and most of the pressure at the end of the day is is I think we could all I shouldn't speak for anyone else but I bet you folks would agree it's it's mostly self-imposed because there's no reason you can't at least theoretically tune out all that noise that comes from outside but and easier said than done but the end of the day it really does feel like the worst of the pressure is the self-imposed kind I mean that that's the you know is this good enough that that voice in your head that that's just you know kind of yeah you know Kenneth telling you it's not good enough it's not whatever it's not this it's not that and tuning that out I don't really know how to do that except that you just I wish I had some great advice for that so that I could take it in the future I don't know you you've been there I mean what is there is there something you wish you would have known in that process well the thing that I didn't really anticipate is that there were sort of six endings to the process so we finished writing the script and it was cathartic and you know shed a few tears and then I was actually just telling telling Matt about this it's like then you finished shooting and then that's kind of a very cathartic moment and then we went in and we finished scoring the show and you know we had Michael Giacchino who was this amazing composer and music was so emotional and then kind of shed though you know what we actually locked a cot there was tears and tequila and then the scoring so there were all these kinds of at every step of finishing there was this kind of saying goodbye and and then of course when we we had viewing party and then we all sort of say goodbye to each other and just those I was just rung out at the end by how many times we kind of gone through the process of saying goodbye and you know it's the thing is is that you you have this this this dual experience of not only saying goodbye to your fictional family but you're saying goodbye to the 300 plus people you've been working with for six years 121 episodes and that's you know that's really hard you know you there were there were people who had gotten married to each other on our crew and had you know there was such a kind of familial bond particularly since we were all in Hawaii and you know the show the community of the show and Hawaii was really the only show there for that period of time and so it's just you know it's just as it's very emotionally it was very emotionally draining and it sort of begs a bigger question of how do you know when to say goodbye sometimes it's not your choice sometimes it is and I'm wondering for the rest of you how do you know when to to end a show how do you know when it's the right time and Erin you're wrapping up newsroom this year how is that process unfolding for you uh well first of all I did choose to to say goodbye this year knows here's where we are right now we're in the middle of shooting the second episode and I haven't yet started writing the third episode so you love to keep it real and fresh like that I don't love it it just happens that way but I would say this about the pressure which is I think we all know it's a it's a glamorous problem to have and moreover when the things you're complaining about are the things you used to dream about you're in pretty good shape right somebody had said to you listen you know you're your biggest problem is going to be that you haven't quite fixed this second act problem in your hit TV series you'd have taken that but I also think that I'm scared of giving up the pressure that you said it was self-imposed and and I think that you're right uh and when someone says to me listen can't you just relax you you you get worried you know every time you say the same thing when you're in the middle of writing something that's it's you're never gonna be able to finish and all these pressures and everything can't you just take one night and relax and forget all about that I'm worried that if I did do that nothing whatever I wouldn't do it that I wouldn't finish that it wouldn't be good I think the the pressure self-imposed or not is what's keeping the Train right listen I you're right I gotta agree with that huh I think you for all of you whether it was a season or whether it was a series you all obviously have tremendous work on your resume and I'm curious sort of about the both the pressure and the challenge of following up on that doing doing the next thing after having something so strong and so beloved and in all of you have had those things what does that feel like you're about to be there what you are just there narcissistic but I really feel like I've been this is some kind of intervention drinking today what's it like first to end and will you ever do anything else it's like oh my god this isn't meat you know I was just saying that in the car on the way over here I believe in mentorship even if it's fictitious before I had a career or anything there were people whose careers that I admired whether it was writers artists of any kind and I kind of looked at their lives and honestly when I was a half-hour sitcom writer and I saw that The Sopranos it happened to David Chase at 55 years old that was like very encouraging to me that I would sort of like look at look at how this happened it happens when it happens and you know people that I admire you know who I've gotten to be friends at in some way like you know Mike Nichols or Larry Gelbart you know passed away who had more than one success you're just kind of marveling at what it is and they you know eventually you get to ask them that question and they sort of say the same thing which is don't do anything that you've done before because you'll be bored and don't do anything for money and if you are doing it for money you will know right away because you will be bored and I mean that's a more concise but they both both sort of had that message around and not that everyone hasn't you know whatever pain you're use or who knows when even those people you know at some point but that's very do I look about it individually and I I don't know I mean everybody here who's been lucky enough to have something good happen to them there are so many times especially in was first happening where I would look back and say what were the steps on the way to this how did it go how did I think of that when we were changing the name of the agency the first time someone came up to me in my one of my agents actually and said you're not going to get rid of the name Sterling Cooper that's like the best thing you ever wrote I was like the name of the agency is the best oh my I guess it's really good I guess that was really a good that was a good idea and I'm throwing it away I guess I don't know you know and you're sort of like how what if I didn't cast Jon Hamm you know what if I'd never met Jon Hamm uh you know forget about like the process that goes into having an idea and you're not the same person that you were when you had that idea you're just not even near that person so what comes out of you now who knows I mean the thing is whatever your intentions are when you're making television I mean there's this alchemy that either happens or it doesn't happen and it's really out of your control and as much as you want to control it you know it you you can't you know you you get lucky you get the great cast you you the network support your show they cannot support your show you get the right timeslot you get I mean there's all these things that have to kind of coalesce that and you only are kind of controlling some small subset of those factors right and to your question if you're as lucky is as we've we've all been here you're you know you're going to get compared to yourself down the road you guys ought to find that out it's a small price to pay I don't want to ever think that I've already written the best thing I'm ever going to write if somebody came along with a crystal ball and said listen you can earn a living for the rest of your life but I can't tell you what it was but you've already written the best thing that you're going to write I don't think I could write anymore that would be really sad I mean I'm I'm always thinking there's that thing that I always meant to write and it comes out of something else I can still write it but there is you know there is the you know Bruce Springsteen shows up and he plays Born to Run for you and you're kind of like that you'd better do that every time I get there that's right it's really old some of his older work you know and you're like no it's born to run it's pretty good ya know there's something about that variation that you could get BOV not no one here is really capable of enjoying any of that on some level but there is that clear the dust away from that and what you have left is that Bruce Springsteen wrote Born to Run you know and I hope he feels that way we speak of the pressures of reinvention but before reinvention you're sort of stop to get through the series you're currently working on and I feel like the pressure is to deliver shocking episodes and episodes everyone's talking about on Twitter the minute they unfold and the next day I feel like every Monday some character has on a big show has just died and that's what everyone's talking about and I'm wondering from a tour excuse me from a storytelling perspective some people think that this is a lazy plot device this is built to just shock and to get people talking and I'm wondering from a writing perspective how do you respond to that do you agree and how do you feel about that I'm not quite sure exactly what you're asking is it is the shock so you know in Episode seven we're gonna kill so-and-so and and that's gonna be the arc of that I don't think you're doing it for that reason I don't think you're sitting there and thinking you know in that you must have that happen in Episode seven I think if if I think it has to feel inevitable in some way you know or it is gratuitous yeah do you know I mean I don't I don't I don't think you're sitting at the beginning of the year and thinking I need this many bodies and they need to come here so I think I say yeah I mean I think you're really good storytelling is is there is this sense of inevitability of to the characters dying but the audience doesn't the audience does have certain expertise you know not my show but they realize it you know people coming up and saying you know when's Tony gonna whack somebody why is he in the hospital what does he do who cares of that and then there was also you know the fact that more people died on The Sopranos than the mob had killed during those seven years you know I mean there's onra aspects to it where you kind of you know there's different kinds of entertainment I mean the interesting thing to me is that I find that the this sort of there's almost a kind of like prejudice that of like enforcement of like the way entertainment has to be and I sort of them I like everything I mean I don't like everything in everything but I mean I do like I like Agatha Christie I like you know soap operas I like comic books I like the formula I have you know a law and order issue still in my life I just like to sit down and see I like Sherlock Holmes these are the most you know formulaic kind of storytelling and they're eternal you know I also like the Bible I love the way the Bible is told filled with details and sort of like stringing it out and then it'll be very narrative ly dense at different places I mean this is like a storytelling you know and so the idea that there is this constant proclamation in the public conversation about how a story should be told and for someone who works you know these shows are also different for each other it's kind of intolerant on some level and you will you hope that there's something for everybody and you're fighting it's a competitive environment you're fighting for four eyeballs with storytelling but there should be you know there should be more than one flavor of ice cream yeah and I mean I think it's important too that anything that's going to be worthwhile isn't going to be all things to all people nor nor should it be but I think the aspect of the public conversation you're talking about is is that that sort of possession that says no it should be what I want right right yeah right you're sort of like well let me see your show I might not really like it I don't know you know but the story starts on on page one and there's almost like no matter how much action you have no matter what it is you know James Bond movie set pace after set piece you eat some of those can be sustained and some of them can't every once in a while you have to stop and see you know James Bond you know in bed it has to like calm down and there is a kind of feeling of like get on with it already and you're sort of like will you trust me there are things that are happening here that will be valuable here and everybody does that in a different way and we're lucky enough to not work in the in the specific network model anymore where they really did not want a continuing storyline because it was so bad for syndication and now I mean the revelation when I was on The Sopranos that people were watching all 13 episodes they were just like oh my god they're keeping track of it and in reference other seasons and when I worked in network TV it was like can we shoot these out of order that's all we care about and you're like well not if they're going to have an arc I don't know you just mentioned the idea of expectations and I'm curious Nick in your case were there versions of that that episode 8 script where woody and Matthews character died and if and why not both because I think the vision that created the story was dictated by the characters and how they behaved in the circumstances I had set out for them and you know it was certainly something I considered but the trajectory of their personal arcs and where the journey took them it was much more interesting to me with with them left alive and and altered in some way and it was written towards that ending you know the whole time because unlike a lot of shows you know I've never into the show before I've never made a show before um they were all in the can finished sealed up before the first episode aired so there's no possible way I can manage anyone's expectation right what it is you know in true detective is a great example of a show that was anchored by two huge stars which did not hurt of course it was a wonderful show but look amazing laughs Matthew went in the Oscar during its run it's just amazing and I feel like there's never been more pressure now to secure these a list people to then get the show greenlit or just be able to hire the people you want to hire and I'm wondering what are the biggest concessions you've had to make to secure the talent who you know you need to make the show successful do you have any stories I mean I think it's actually the opposite I think the material is attracting talent and the barriers between movies and television are evaporating oh great and so um when I was working on you know the kind of conception of Bates Motel I always had Vera Farmiga in my mind she was kind of my prototype I was thinking like a woman around 40 sexy smart who could play you know this incredible range of emotions and I you know I just loved her and some of the things I saw her in and you know but I I wasn't really I didn't know that I didn't think I could get her and we and carry her and I wrote the first three scripts and I sent them to her with a sort of a mash note saying how much I loved her as an actress and she said yes like that was that you know was just you know and I was kind of shocked in a way but I think if you look at what's being done in the various forms of television which now sort of is so expansive it's you know streaming HBO you know network cable I think there's just the work is so good I think actors basically wanted to good work and they're they don't the the barriers don't matter yeah yeah we found it that way I mean I don't know when HBO had to pay them but but but we didn't have to make any concessions for them you know the guys were really right on with the material like they wanted to dive into the material with two guys like that the I guess the overall concession would be that well you're not going to use them again you know people time commitment right people who do have active cinematic careers aren't going to want to come back for six years or five years I mean I think your show was a barrier I think that because you know woody and Matthew did the show I think that's gonna lead to other movie stars doing projects which I hope so because you know like those the first thing I did when they arrived for pre-production and rehearsals was I handed in box sets of Deadwood in the wire you know cuz I a lot of times these guys just haven't watched this in that time yeah they haven't had time typically if they're watching something it's because somebody said you need to work with this person you should watch their movie and and they loved him and they had liked what he had never watched Deadwood neither in Matthew and you know they both loved it and it's getting to where if if serious actors don't want to play superheroes there's nothing left yeah there's nothing left so you know give him a season of television you do see if you do say the word drama you know if you think about the movie business and you know obviously the Oscars have a lot of dramas and then but for the most part they a lot of that fat a fragment of entertainment is on television oh and it just completely so I would imagine you're an actor it'd be attractive to you I think I mean as a fan of film and TV there's no question that Act the character and narrative in television over at least the last 10 years for me have been far above you're gonna get a big argument in this room no I mean the only the only my wrongs in the movie but in my role by Aaron so well but you know like they make like five serious adult movies a year know all written by neurons are written by Aaron story oh and I think that the best theater in America is on television and and that's been true for for a few years now and I have never heard of a network head say you got to get stars for this stars just don't have for some reason on television stars don't have the same relationship to the material that they do in the movies and television actually has a more of a habit of making stars you know Bryan Cranston comes out the other end of Breaking Bad and much bigger star than it was went when he went in uh you know we Jeff Daniels was just the guy we wanted for the show we weren't given a mandate uh to go out and find somebody's done a bunch of Woody Allen movies or Dumb and Dumber Hey that's true the snake thank you thank you there is still I mean just ever just remember going on the air the same year as damages and seeing Glenn Close there and thinking like wow I would probably watch that before I watched our show I want to see Glenn Close on TV um I think there is I mean I I believe I buddy ghosts on TV because she's a great actress uh I'm familiar with her work I no one knew who Jon Hamm was you know II mean I I sort of like I remember with The Sopranos one of the things I loved about it was that I didn't know who those people were except for Lorraine and sort of being attracted to that world but I do think that they're for different reasons I'm not really disagreeing with you but I do I do think that there is always an effort to especially if you become a star on TV - - that it's a draw but movie stars coming and it's kind of an interesting thing for me because part of it is that they they really have to disappear or you have to take advantage of what they're bringing with them right just like they do in their movies yeah and and that's a tough thing I mean I Brian had to shed you know as someone who's like a longtime TV watcher had to shed Malcolm in the middle for me and I actually think it worked with it it sort of gave it this kind of like he was an extra you know squishy middle-class person that that helped the story but let me ask I mean was uh was your show cast contingent what when it was yeah whoa now the idea specifically with our show was that we we would get our two leads before we pitched it oh okay so so we had those leads when we pitched it and and the main benefit there a strong pitch yeah like is is you know yeah that's it um I want that meeting yeah that like the the the real benefit of that you know but besides being able to sell the show to it to a wide audience is that it is that it let us control the show and make it what we wanted because those guys signed on to do that and and they came with us you know right um next year you know we'll see what the new cast brings but they were fantastic I mean I completely understand I've seen it in movies and TV before where the movie star walks on screen maybe they're in an independent film and you know you're like as a viewer one of these things is not like the others you know like Julia Roberts just walked in and but those guys I felt really disappear into those roles and and in and in the roles tried to make use of what they brought you know they're they're bringing a sort of southern almost retrograde masculinity to it you know so so right towards that was my and and I was curious we talked a little bit about this last week actually securing Liev and and John for your show it sounded likely I've had a lot of input in sort of the casting of other people in the show was how open are you or at least that's what he it's it he intimated just in terms of feedback he sound like you were open to him suggest another Maryland it's called ray Donovan he's the lead in the show right um but I you know he he he did chemistry reads with certain people you know which was helpful and he participated but um you know I wanted him to be happy with the casting but ultimately I don't think you know he did participate yes it's the answer how hard was it to convince him to do it because I know that it's he's never done serious TV it's a big commitment you know he he is a funny he claims that I hit him over the head like a seal during dragged him you know I think he was ready find that so easy you know I mean it was hard for him he has a very active career in the theatre right you know I think in terms of that it's been frustrating because he plays a very impacted character who doesn't have a lot of access to language you know so just on that level it's been you know it mean he'll he says stuff like look at me Frank do you know instead of you know Hamlet yeah you know I mean I'm not giving him Shakespearean speeches you know but um I think he's enjoying it and I think you know I didn't want to just make it with anybody I mean to go back to an earlier question I didn't want to make it just to make it it had to feel like the right set and we were lucky enough at that moment I think its timing got a percent I mean uh you know I was sitting there trying to you know casting Norma and Norman Bates like bad casting and the show would have been absolutely impossible and disastrous and so you know Freddie Highmore was the guy and we actually had to work around the fact that he was actually enrolled he's finishing his degree in Cambridge and so he had to have like six months off to actually go back to Cambridge and finish school and you know I had moved mountains to get everyone to agree that this was you know something that we should do and and and they all you know saw the virtue of that because he was the guy right that chemistry and those two actors I just don't think the show would be possible without them and I also feel like even if you were doing the future version I wouldn't pick anybody beyond Freddie Highmore Rivera I go like they're as good as I believe I could get for that show I feel the same way which on void with Paula malcomson with Liev with you know Eddie Marsan yeah I mean just an amazing actor who kind of surprised us him he was living in England I had seen him in my Lee movies you know and it felt slightly anomalous at first and he sent in a self tape because he wanted to be on the show and wanted to change his life so so there you are cotton you mentioned this idea of sending a note to Veera what are what's the sort of wildest thing you guys have done to try and land and after whether it was successful or not slept with him what else is there anything that Bob Odenkirk I'm sorry Mary Louise Parker went it up on the west wing we left a message on my voicemail at the office saying hi this is Mary Louise Parker Josh Lyman badly needs to get laid and I'm the one to do it and she was in the next episode Nik you talked about kind of reinvention for season two which I'm sure you're deep into that what do you do to wit the sort of anthology format you're working with how do you maintain the tone the just I guess look and feel aside but also how we obviously Ryan Murphy's done a great job with coven sort of similarly you know reinventing but how are you approaching that with season two and from the writing perspective well um you know I don't differentiate between types of writing for myself like prose fiction playwriting screenwriting it's all the same and so I'm treating it like this is this year's novel you know and in the way that it's it's going to be in the same genre and what carries over I think is the authorial vision and the authorial voice you know the the same way you can pick up a book by a particular author and you have your favorite book by that author and maybe you have if you like the author you have lesser works by him like oh sure or anybody there there's a consistency of vision there you know um and my overall thought about this stuff has been you know I was telling Carlton I might have built myself a nice coffin here um but writing got me into this and writing is gonna have to get me out and that's usually how I approach every problem like this and um and and I tend to I really trust the process and I don't know that it works if I do anything besides follow my obsessions and my fascinations and the things I want to discuss so I you know I'll just keep doing that until somebody makes me stop you know I think that I think that seems like a very common element that you know to kind of put yourself in a precious situation is actually there's this kind of weird joy and comfort in that in actually in creation that comes out of you know having to back up against the wall and if you make it if you make it I mean there is really I mean you know you're talking about keeping me that that fear going which is you know I mean I feel like that the the challenge aspect of television you know having been on other shows and watching people go through it and then to sort of have it take it on you relish at least in hindsight any change any chance of being painted into a box especially if you don't want to repeat yourself which is you know big challenge for all of us so you really really get to a place where you're like they're you know they're doing this they're doing that or you know I lost this actor how am I going to figure this out I'm in a new place but you know it was part of the reason why we started skipping time between seasons I mean the very first time the between first and second seasons I mean I had a bunch of stories when I did the first season of Mad Men I had nothing when I did the second season except a couple of ideas and and so I I was like well I guess it's a challenge I guess I'll sort of figure out what it is I guess I'll have to start spending this thing up I have great people that I'm working with you know I don't work I don't work alone I hire amazing writers and they come in right away with their enthusiasm for the show with their personal lives forget about just like script work and things like that to get some have someone drop a story in your lap that happened to them that they sometimes don't even know is a story or they tell it to you like it really happened and they made it up I always love that I've been guilty of that once I realized David chase was not interested in anything that wasn't real I would always present things as if it had happened to me and and he would always cry [ __ ] because he eventually he didn't believe anything whether it had happened to me or not but you know that that problem that you get the big problem that's whether it's continuing it it that is the thing that keeps you going and you whether you can conquer it or CH I mean just doing it just executing it is is satisfying in a very unique way yeah I mean I think it's it's just another these are all permutations of the problem of the blank page you know and and and what you're going to do with it and it's both terrifying and thrilling and there's a way in this business I mean I just started but you you have to get off on the pressure somewhat right I mean or else it's you can't do anything or you have to find a way to not become incapacitated by the pressure that's really what I found it is is like for some reason or other I am some I am a person who feels better when I'm writing as much as it as hard as is as horrible as I think about it happening and like whatever this but when I'm actually doing it it it works for me in some way you know you know I'm playing with my trucks I think it's you know David Milch is I you know says you know never believe anything you think about yourself as a writer when you're not writing that's great that's great healthy fear of failure her helps to purify yer yeah a lot of experience with failure and I hate it and don't want it that I mean it's going to happen again but it's it's like electroshock therapy I don't want it so combined with the pressure that you put on yourself that's pretty much the jet fuel for right and and and I'm sorry the fact that you do when you're writing when you're writing well when you know when you're not when when you're slogging through it and it's it's all coming like molasses you know something's wrong but when you're writing well it really feels so good alright there's nothing like it and and you want it like the golfer who hacks his way around a golf course all day long but then for some reason you don't know why it's a beautiful shot that's the reason they keep coming back to the golf course you have a non sports analogy for nope some of us nobody I don't know what you're going I don't play golf either but surely you can understand that before perpetuating a stereotype which is 100 percent accurate you don't have to think about failure all the time because it's where I guess we're just not engineered to enjoy it same as you I hate it scares the hell outta me keeps me awake at night but I and then if what I'm being really honest with myself it just dawned on me but uh like not that long ago it's the only thing ever learned from this failure it's the only thing we ever any of us really I I say that you know because this is the rare success I've had in and in my career of Breaking Bad coming off of that and I don't know what to take from it I don't know as in I mean other than to do my best to enjoy it it's like I've never actually solved a Rubik's Cube but I got a picture if you're going like this and like some monkey with us a little better for me finally you get it right and you're like wow I got that I have a helmet ever gonna do that again you know it's like that's what I think we do I think we don't learn from it on some level going out for the premiere last week and seeing the show go on the air and I was like I just keep sticking my neck out there what am i why do I keep doing this it's so nervous keep painting a target like yes like wow you know who needs punching but you and but the glory is the glory is the is the work and you know coming in here and having people say that they watch the show and enjoyed it and the response that you have and you know I don't want to get too deep into the psychological profile and writer but we have a lot in common all of us know that we have a lot in common childhoods parents a lot of the experience is very common kind of shocking and there is something about being heard and and the chance to have that sort of controlled communication that I think is is worth is worth the failure it's it's worth all the failures and you know and I think most of us don't even know what our failures are I'm always shocked when I hear what the items are what it is or you know you're in a while but you know you don't move it yeah but there's different like maybe we should differentiate between the types of success because there's something that might hit an audience really big and might be seen as a popular success that you're not satisfied with right and uh yeah in sorry about that sound but yes no not like what's talking about so I think there needs to be kind of a personal meter there and and like like when you're saying we don't really know what our failures are and stuff is I know it's never that abstract idealization I had before we actually started getting into the nitty-gritty of getting the words down in the right order and then executing it as a performance this is just only to say that I I could see doing something that it wasn't that it was publicly not successful but regarding it as a personal triumph you know and I don't I think that's important for any creator always have the audience in mind but but be careful of what your yard sticks are I guess that's good advice hard to take but good ass gets it but but if you stay off the internet it's easy if that does help and I got it I get a second that I agree that's the first rule yes how often that is the first month of the show I was still reading comments sections oh yeah I can't do that and they don't do they they had an intervention with my guy everybody's got me down and I was like good luck if you can you got me out of the process Malibu now I have you're gonna have look you're gonna have to go into rehab every once in a while especially if things go well you get drawn back in again but like I left like social media and I got in touch with all these friends that I hadn't talked to in years cuz I'm used to just liking pictures of their kids and stuff and now I can't do that anymore what's the toughest part of the process the weather it's it's the dialogue whether it's the story whether it's it's a big arc coming what a structure and shape for me I mean dialogue is fun and it says it's it's that's sort of that's the that's the hot fudge I mean it's the structure and the shape it's the you know what we're doing now in this on the spin-off better call Saul were sitting around the room just like we did on Breaking Bad and we use the word shape a lot you know what's the shape of this thing there's pleasing shapes structurally and then there are less than pleasing shapes and it's hard hard thing to put into words hope you know it if it's right you and then and if it's wrong something is just always itching that it's it's akin to musical structure almost all right I think like if you can't play an instrument you can still hear that somebody messed up yeah that's just good one point I may be saying the same thing as they did its intention and obstacle for me I I love dialogue I love writing dialogue and and I am NOT a natural storyteller the way everyone else is at this table and I'm not the guy sitting around the campfire and I've got a million of them I just dialogue has always sounded like music to me and I wanted to imitate the sound of that and I kind of consider plot and story to be this necessary intrusion on what I'm really trying to do so I need I have to start with a very strong intention very strong obstacle or I will just write pages and pages that go nowhere yeah I mean I think that kind of you know it requires this immense discipline to do this to the hard story work and I think that's you know and avoid the just the many distractions particularly when you're in the middle of making a show and somebody wants to show you like pictures of cars or like wardrobe and you know and but you have to basically say you know I'm in the and I'm trying to figure out like what is the structure of this episode 17 keyrings choose the one that you want huh yeah but it's you know it's more enjoyable to choose the keyring than it is to figure out your narrative intention I don't know what I'm looking for when I'm looking at the key rings I've lost card but for me the hardest part is is knowing what's good and what isn't and I personally cannot tell the difference and I rely on the people who are part of the show with me particularly the writing staff to to figure that out and I'm kind of passive in that way I know what it feels like in my gut and I know when I sit down to write it then when it's when it's when it's tapped out but that's that's always really really hard that and getting a show to time getting a show to time is very painful and in the end you don't miss anything but you're mad at yourself for shooting stuff you didn't need are usually longer so always long always lying always thought yeah and I want it to be a little fat because I can cut out things I don't like and and sometimes there's there's turns in the dialogue in the scene that helps an actor get through it that you can just take out and they got there you know usually long enough that just one more scene that's a two-parter I never have enough for that I'm always like like running didn't have always three minutes over I'm curious a there's any more frightening than sharing a first draft of something you've written with someone and I'm curious um and who do you trust the most to read the other writers in the room you know the writers I've picked who you know we're one mind I mean it's really a collective it's not necessarily a democracy to know but but we're all one mind at a certain point um so it's it's those people is there anyone outside the workspace who you trust I mean historically in my career sure I have a handful of writers who and friends who I've depended on for honest appraisals of you know movie work but but in terms of this it's a collective you know and you've you've picked those writers you know I think the hardest part to go back to that question it's just knowing when the outlines we work from very you know carefully outlines and it's knowing when it's it's that thing of following your instincts and knowing just knowing when it isn't good enough do you know and to keep going do you know let's do another pass let's do another you know not letting a writer start until it really is ready and then getting good notes from people to make it better and how much are your scripts changing my you shoot are they are they pretty set you know someone once said this script is guilty that I'm sorry that's the other way around the script is innocent until proven guilty and I kind of I kind of do never heard that yeah and I kind of believe that you know and that's kind of the rule on the set is you know um do it the way threatened you know we've spent many many many many hours doing it you know but at the same time you'd be an idiot not to let certain people do improv you know Jon Voight I mean in the pilot came up with this thing when he was with the hooker in the room and you know he was hot yeah and I mean I mean the dance was built in but he kind of did this dialogue that one you know and this scene wasn't long the shot was kind of over before it started and I just thought this is gold this may I'm dancing with this woman and she's kind of this the candy in the room and you know it was so interesting so I mean you you want to leave room for those happy accidents and those serendipitous moments where people are really so deeply wedded to the character I love that feeling tune so much of it as a magic I haven't great actors and realizing that you you know and I love you I need much yeah I love fun dialogue and then but I've the lesson of the editing room that I love and I love relearning it over and over again on episode after episode is you know we can cut all this stuff out because these wonderful actors can say it with a look yeah you didn't think anyone would get it and you basically they walked in the room and they got it yeah it's shocking especially when you're directing to a script that you wrote and you're kind of like this is a big waste of time Jon Hamm could just walk in and stare at the guy and I think it's over I know and by the way and there will always be some writer on the staff for like then we can just have them come in it's there you'd think it would work we started this conversation talking about sort of moving on doing the next thing Vince in your case you are sort of moving on with one of your characters and hopefully more of your characters spin-offs can can be tricky particularly with something so beloved and in this case so recent what does that sort process been like for you and has their bins with any hesitations now that you're in the throes of it it opens you up to a lot of fears like is this going to be Fraser or is it going to be after mash I mean it's it's I mean I think I don't know it if it's if it's after mash rather than Fraser it won't be for a lack of hard work and and and and wishful thinking and and a lot of smart people doing their best but you just don't know till the world takes it you know or just whatever but you know I just I figured the best thing to do is keep keep moving on to the next thing plugging on to the next thing because if I had taken a year off or or more I would have I keep using the expression and I got to get back up on the horse which is an odd thing to say after a successful ride rather than you know going over this over stirrups or whatever the hell that I don't know I don't know all the horse parts but you know the hooves or the whatever falling down and the horse [ __ ] and then it seems like an odd statement to say get back up on the horse after something good happen but we're deep into it right now it came over here from the writers room and we're a week behind and we're probably going to be two weeks behind at the end of this week and but but it's it's a high-class play I love what you said earlier and it's a high-class problem a problem I didn't know I would ever face and it's it's a better problem than sitting around brooding and thinking you know is it there's not enough time to worry about yeah I am worried whether it may be a it may turn out history such as history takes note of such things it may turn out that this was a mistake to do this but there's not time enough there's time to worry about it a little bit but not to fixate on it at this point and I think that's the ultimate good thing for me personally you took no time off at all hey now that was off I was off maybe for a couple months but I was doing a lot of press during it it was pressing some fun places I'd never been to like I've never been to Berlin I've never been to places like that but it was you know you know how it is you're still working so right so let you never let the wheel stop they never really stopped because I was talking about the last show right up til we started on the new show so but I don't think it's a bad thing you know what's that old expression you can rest when you're dead and that's closer by the minute yeah you know there's been advice about resting and so forth and I definitely am anticipating the concept of it but I mean part of being a writer is it's a myth that you ever stop I know you other people that you're around I know you a little bit you're not gonna you gonna get on to the next thing and you're gonna absolutely because I'm gonna get on your staff it's like when you drive listen you know you're like everyone thinks they want the vacation and then and then it turns out the vacation you know then you're Restless after the first week maybe never enjoy that vacation well you take it and you never enjoy yeah yeah yeah you're some sabbatical you must to take did you take time off you did I did I did tell us how to do well I heard this like a 6 weeks like if you make it through 6 weeks like you I didn't have six weeks you know by the time we finished post and I needed to start the room again and get ready to having another season that show that it's not a real vacation joy yeah the vacation I'm done with madman I'm done with a Breaking Bad I'll just relax for a while until I start thinking again that's never anything no actually it did I actually enjoyed most lost I did enjoy it I went I went hiking in Switzerland with my daughter which was kind of completely awesome and I would say like for about three or four months I was so exhausted I mean I had really done I mean I just monastic aliy been devoted to that show for six years and it was a network show so we made 121 episodes of the show and you know and I was just recharging my batteries I read books I let's just remit when you were done what you did was make your daughter walk uphill for no reason that's what happened to you he didn't want to go to Hawaii no I want to hear her version of this vacation yeah dad was just like he was so worried and Colin kept he kept checking his phone to see if anybody watch the show and hey well the need for a vacation just sort of figures into my next question which is the amount of stress you're all under which is sort of hard to even fathom sometimes between contract negotiations and all the money that's at stake and all the personalities are trying to satiate and keep happy how are you able to maintain your post as this quote-unquote CEO of your shows and tune out all the noise and tune out all the stress and not let it affect your work like what are your strategies for that because it I have to imagine it's to only getting more difficult and keeping morale up on a show right then it's one moment at a time for me it's like you just deal with whatever's in the headlights at the moment and don't worry about what's not mad like yeah I'm uh excuse yeah back up I'm big on morale uh III want everybody to be really psyched when they're at work but as soon as you come to grips with the fact that trying to figure out what it is everybody wants and then trying to give it to them is a bad recipe for for any kind of storytelling is as as soon as you can get your arms around that and realize that all you can do is write something that you like that you think your friends will like uh and then keep your fingers crossed that enough other people will like it that you can continue doing it as soon as you can get there at your you're throwing a lot of stuff you don't need overboard mm-hmm there are conflicts on set inevitably whether it's someone that's that's not happy with what's happening to their character whether it's a problem with the network the studio and you guys are all in charge you are ultimately at the end of the day the boss if you yeah quite sorry to cut you off it's prioritizing it really is like which problem do I have to deal with right now do you know and really being able to to just just figure out what are the things that are essential that I deal with today and and letting the other stuff you know cuz you would lose your mind I mean it's really stressful you're making hundreds of decisions and you really have to add which is the most exhausting thing in the world especially I mean I'm I thought I was an indecisive person and I started making hundreds of decisions and you push some of them off and people think you're procrastinating but you really made fifty other decisions here but the medicine for me is again to bring it up but like I am surrounded by really really funny people and they totally have like a like I didn't realize that my mood could emanate into an organism of 300 people so I felt a little bit of responsibility to not be as moody as I am but there is a lot of cheer and like going down to the set which I don't get to be on that often and swinging by the the base camp where the actors are bullshitting and then going to the writers room and hearing what everybody watched on TV last night because I didn't do it you know sort of like well you know I had to worry about this I wear the vest and you know someone tells you that you know there was a fire in the kitchen and you're like oh I didn't even know that I just went to the fridge yeah that's what it is you are being you are in a bubble on some level so that you couldn't you know your brain in the jar sometimes we had a guy bifida rattlesnake one of her crew do not know about it yeah I didn't write that so later I'm sorry Sherlock he's okay thank goodness what I was laughing at was that you didn't know now that I've been loud well if you knew me better you wouldn't use a finger [ __ ] didn't you you forgot to drink water when you're filming the finale and you yeah you became too engrossed I was I was a cautionary tale I shot the first day of shooting we're in this really fancy mansion there's really nice people who owned it but we were all very nervous we're all wearing blue space booties and whatnot don't want to bring any food in the set so I wasn't drinking water and I felt fine and then the next morning I felt like I had the flu and man being dehydrated just sucks I was lying in my office in Albuquerque with an oxygen mask on and he had stuck a needle in my arm and he hung the saline bag on my on my floor lamp they tie took like two bags and I'm like drinking water like crazy man feel like you don't want to don't do that dehydration simple stuff like that it's getting enough sleep do you know it really is I mean it's just so eating well getting enough sleep usually I don't I don't I can't sleep in it you know make myself get off the iPad you know I just put it away cuz I know it's too much stimulation I'm gonna sleep through production meeting but I can sleep in the afternoon but when it comes to night time you know I was like you get in such a zone especially you know I know it's not 20 to a year but you're just like you're writing so much I was joking like I get home sometimes at night and I lay in bed and I go oh this is the part where the guy goes to sleep really like not you know and I luckily I don't need that much you guys have written a lot of characters over the course of your careers um I'm curious looking back is there one where you work sort of most at ease writing for well I have a more limited resume yeah no yeah yeah I could write rest coal for forever and ever I mean that's just easy no uh Matthew and I'll definitely do something else again but you know it was like I I got all these letters like her are you really not gonna bring back Kol and heart like you're that that's so stupid like what are you like why won't you bring I hate you why I was like you guys need to write Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson don't write to me again with the not reading the letters stay away yeah what about the rest of you and is there is there one that comes to mind whether it's recent or in the past I didn't know I could write TV till I was lucky enough to for Chris Carter to hire me onto the x-files and that was I I was so lucky to have that job and it got to the point and and that's the other thing too I mean you know well you've done some Network but you two gentlemen especially coming out of doing a lot of network in the West Wing and lost you do so many episodes and that was my only Network experience and it's just this endless grind grind but you I would hear their voices in my head and it was it sounds a little you know but you it felt like transcription and and that and that's a nice I mean again once the structure was in place because as you said you once you have that outline once you have those cards once you have that freedom it does not sound like freedom ironically it sounds like stricture it sounds like little restrictions can be free no one were you going yes that's also like that's the thing that's the most enjoyable because it's weird you know discussing problems and all the other things when you actually carve out that moment and you're there and you're with your characters and your inhabiting their world and you're writing them I mean that's the most enjoyable part of the time I loved writing for Josh Holloway on lost I mean I think the saw regard was just kind of acerbic and irreverent and kind of a bad boy and it was just it was just it was just kind of pure fun totally fun and Hurley yeah and Hurley I mean the stuff that was actually sounding kind of more kind of comedic and slightly less you know there was a lot of earnestness that was part of loss and so I think some of the characters that were kind of counterpoint to that were funded yeah look what you earned you've had quite a few there's there never been a time really when when writing was easy other been plenty of times when it was fun when when I knew what I was doing when I knew what the scene was I don't want to pick a favorite character it just it it feels wrong no smile yes not a favorite the one you had the easiest time maybe writing you know I play all the characters as I'm writing them very physical when I'm writing I'm jumping up and down and I'm acting it out now there were times when you know when I was no I don't think that there's one where I had mazes you have not help are there none of them auto bike I think if you ask him one more time it's it listen again it goes smoothly uh when when I know what this scene is about and what needs to be accomplished in this scene and when your confines with that scene and when I don't it doesn't it it breaks down that way you I have a question sort of maybe going back and their recesses of your resumes uh what has been the most embarrassing moment for you as a writer that you've experienced oh god we're not gonna tell you you mean like something we've written yeah yeah something that you've written that maybe you got not the feedback you were looking for or maybe somebody wrote something about something that you'd written that was definitely not what you were hoping for I got one I was I was asking hey I don't know fizzy and I was the one that pops to mind I've probably done more embarrassing things in this mrs. pre-internet too but I wrote some scene where molder was talking about you know some victim of a kidnapping siding with her kidnapper and it's and it's I I wrote it as Helsinki syndrome you can do and because because it just stopped a little bit but I wrote it as Helsinki syndrome retired as well and also because I think it's a joke in the first die hard movie where someone says Helsinki syndrome like hell sense of malapropisms yeah and and then David Duchovny who's like a brilliant guy he did the scene I think he was the one saying the lies he did the same that he came to hey I like that shout out you gave to die hard with the Helsinki syndrome I said what do you mean he says quote because it's Stockholm Syndrome or was it like some weird copyright thing where you couldn't it's copyrighted Stockholm so juris copyright oh my gosh I season finale of the newsroom last year Jane Fonda had a throwaway line she was stoned and she said I'm gonna get the Allman Brothers back together and a few days after it aired I got a letter from the Allman Brothers manager saying the Allman Brothers never broke up and and that they were understandably offended I was knocked out the Allman Brothers watched the newsroom and that's that was my takeaway but I couldn't apologize enough I have so many embarrassing stories I am usually usually on set the weirdest thing for me is for some reason other when we when there are love scenes and I'm on basic cable and they require a lot of choreography summers another when I go in and start talking to the actors I always end up playing the woman because I feel awkward like being the guy with the actress and invariably end up with like Jon Hamm just looking at me like really did this again I'm like we're not going to make out obviously but I mean it did it was it was the first time it was pointed out to me was pretty deep into the show and that was really really embarrassing there like one time you should play the guy okay I have one I don't even know if I can tell it well Diana required well its behavior it's not writing but it has to do with you know Jon Voight was you know incarcerated in the scene in a cinderblock cell and he needs to be needed to behave this is so disgusting I know I think even I don't think I can do it yeah you censored out Scottie but he needed to pretend he's a very ultra character and rather foul-mouthed and it just felt right that he stands up and pretends he's a chimp and in his state of rage at being in a cell again he jerks off and kind of throws it into the camera that is watching him and we're on and I was standing near a large group of people and I was pantomiming how to do this to him and I just thought he it was so so wrong on so many levels I mean one of the greatest actors ever first of all that I'm instructing him had known for his master date I know you know but instructing him to be a champ and jerk off the whole thing was so wrong yeah do you know what I just just realized people were staring at us I was pantomiming this with great AB and they are so is they're so brave right oh my god every time we get caught doing that oh it was just your Johari time you get caught every night aware that they do oh that's rich like how dare I do this on every level I hope that doesn't it all speaks to the amazing contributions that you all make to your shows the unheralded contributions until now so thank you so much and I'm so sorry to say we are out of Cologne thank you that's pretty hard to top honestly thank you thank you all good see you guys yeah

Channel: The Hollywood Reporter

Views: 178,889

Rating: 4.9337606 out of 5

Keywords: Aaron Sorkin, Ann Biderman, bates motel, Breaking Bad, Carlton Cuse, Drama, drama showrunner, Emmys, Mad Men, Matthew Weiner, nic pizzolatto, Ray Donovan, roundtable, series, television, the newsroom, True Detective, Vince Gilligan, writers, walter white, don draper, showrunner, amc, hbo, larry gelbart, M*A*S*H, matthew mcconaughey, the west wing, jon hamm

Id: IcthOOSCO3Y

Length: 65min 1sec (3901 seconds)

Published: Fri May 30 2014

Reddit Comments

[u/danielcp0303]

Thanks for posting this. I love the Hollywood Reporter roundtables

[u/hikemogan]

Vince Gilligan needed a hug in the beginning

[u/Yossarian_MIA]

Thanks. Those are some of the people who blow me away with their work. What an All-Star selection.

[u/WackingWillies]

Hannibal gets no respect! :(