A Sydney welfare office held at gunpoint | The Negotiators | Full Episode

[Music] didn't have a real idea what I was getting into that day there was an armed person had entered the Department of Community Services did quite a shot said that they had explosives and had taken hostages was probably the the most excruciating period that I've had to deal with as a negotiator I had nothing but words to change a situation from a life-and-death situation to being safely resolved [Music] [Music] one sentence can be the difference between life and death and in this negotiation I remember one sentence that I said that always haunts me police emergency hello yes ma'am a full name is Troy Charles milk' my wife full name is Judith or Judy's she's known claim to Millgate okay I've got two other people in the room and me and Judy you've got four strapped to our chests if I get shot you'll hear two explosions I can't try well hopefully no one's gonna get shot you'll be all right a tense standoff in Zippy's southwest the man took hostages at a local welfare office in Liverpool it was very flammable situation I was immediately to get out there there were two hostages two employees down in the reception area we had to try and get them out you really have a deal of stress while you're trying to assess the situation until you get an idea as to what the problem is how serious it is how you're going to control it when I arrived on the scene there was a lot of confusion a lot of noise most urgent thing when I arrived was to try and get as much intelligence about the the incident and the people involved the man at the center of the siege is 25 year old invalid pensioner Troy Millgate I want to tell the welfare yeah tell us why they took our baby because they had no reason they took her down I don't do what you want me to do but you will need to calm down was learned that they had been in conflict with the Department of Community Services in Wollongong the authorities had seized their child he just wanted the job back he was threatening to kill both himself and his wife and claiming that he they would not be here only once to die he said that he and his wife had explosives strapped to their body and that the two bombs had a range of ways in which they could be activated if he was shot and his body reacted in a certain way it would set the bomb off or his wife was shot it would set the bomb off Troy had convictions for stealing explosives and convictions for making explosives [Music] there were a number of people who worked in there that were allowed to leave we gathered them and consulted with them to find out what we could about what was going on inside and it was during that period that we learned there are about 24 people upstairs in the Department of Community Services it became clear the matter was a very serious situation they were in the office above Troy which he was unaware of so we had to try and make contact with them to say stay quiet don't move don't make a noise lock yourselves in we had to try and get them out as as fast as we possibly could that involved the tactical team working at a plan to do exactly that we also had to make sure that the two hostages with Troy at will safe so my role was to to make communication with the person of interest as soon as I could from that point we bring the negotiators truck in I took over the role of primary negotiator so I hadn't been in a hostage situation before like this you're not any nervous about the situation but you nervous because you know that everyone from the Commissioner down is listening to you and of course police some very good critics and and I was well aware of that as well I said one I'm Steve I'm from the place how can I help it today don't really know what's going on would you just mind letting me know what's happening okay what I would like for me and my wife died is for us to know why the World Fair took our baby for one without any reason what no I tried going through the right process every time but they just weren't willing to give me answers whatsoever it doesn't sound very acceptable what I was trying to achieve in the first phase of conversations is building rapport and that's the really the first aim is in any negotiation is to build a rapport you know as fast as you can so that you get an understanding about how each other operating and to build trust and so the tone I took was a neutral turn in other words I'm curious I want to find out what's going on I want to find out what it wants and I want to make sure that we do yes callate from that point I've tried to do everything legal yep all the time and all it got me was a kick in the pants I've always had to starve usually for food and the pension Department they're in the process of cutting us off so what depressed him lesson two just not having enough money to live is that right and no shelter so when the situation like this has evolved to the point where there is a siege you're almost invariably dealing with really quite significantly abnormal human behavior my role was that of a consultant psychiatrist to make an analysis of the intelligence information to gain an understanding of what exactly it was that was being played out it's important to appreciate the dangerousness and seriousness of the overall scenario what you had was a man with explosives who had a firearm in an environment where he was holding hostages very important not to cause this man additional frustration okay all right and he was calm but determined but he said that he was prepared to use the explosives and to use the hostages to get what he wanted this was at a time where there was a an army officer had been brought to the scene explosives expert I got tried to describe what the bomb looked like and how he actually made it I saw that the army guy he was nodding through the description of the of the bomb and indicated that not only with the building go up but the our negotiators truck would go up as well and we couldn't move the truck because as the police came into the scene they parked their cars and they all went to their various areas and took all their keys with them so we were locked in there and that's where I thought that well that's a motivator for resolving this peacefully in the main reception area [Music] we had the building surrounded so no one could get out and no one could get in we had to set up teams who might have to attack the building if things went bad [Music] my role during the rescue operation is is to ensure that Troy or Judy do not leave my line of sight it's critical to watch where they go and what they do before I decide to in use lethal force to end a situation what needed to be a consideration was the fact that there was no didi involved that shortened term for a improvised explosive device we're only needed a small amount to do consider amount of damage Troy and Judy were visible quite regularly through the Scopes trial is in he's in his early 20s he was carrying quite regularly this this sawing off 22 rifle Judy was a little bit different to troye [Music] Judy's body language appeared submissive she was showing a lot of anxiety this that there was no doubt about that but at the end of the day I had to consider was Julie wearing or carrying the oily do as a bomb on her body we had their names but we had to find out what we could about these people we had least who were continually inquiring about the backgrounds to Troy and his wife Judy he had one of the hardest straw hoods that I've ever read he had an abusive father more than likely sexually abused Troy's son was about three months old and he'd left the son in the care of his foster mother she contacted the Department of Community Services and asked them to take charge of the son he had lost children to social security services in the past and he now had his most recent child removed he was there to leverage his position to find out what had happened to his son and to get an explanation why his son was removed from him but at the same time he insisted that he was there to kill himself and his wife and that really was not logical if we gave him that information he was going to kill himself and if we didn't give him that information he was still going to kill himself there was absolutely no chance of resolving the problem given the way he was behaving mr. Barnes were a catch-22 situation and so my job then was to okay we start using time to really get to the bottom of the situation and to try and get out all the underlying factors that are involved in this situation at the same time there was 24 people in the office above Troy those people are constructive hostages as well in danger our biggest concern was the OED it had a propensity to cause damage to untold people in that location Troi and Judi weren't aware that they were upstairs but we knew that they could see down onto the street through through the front windows and door and so there was a decision made that the tactical team we're going to get those people out of the office through a back line we might be able to climb go up the stairs from the back of the building bring them down carefully and silently the individuals that were trapped up there had communications with negotiators and the planning in terms of their extraction could be explained to them by the negotiators succinctly while that rescue went on to try and keep Troy's mind off listening for things that might be occurring what was given the instruction to keep him talking on the phone by maintaining calm acknowledgement supporting good behavior and de-emphasizing negative or dangerous behavior the issue that really dominated the picture was the threat of a bomb it was a very tense decision to make because you're only going to get one chance at these things haven't heard any word back yet how long I don't know see I don't lie to you I don't know tell you what I know well we did speak to Troy specifically about the child because it was the heart of the demand we were not going to name the place or the exact person who had taken possession of his child because that might put that person at risk and not could easily confronting with the situation and say look he's the answer Europe you know you couldn't perform your duties as a father I mean that's a very very harsh thing to say to a father the absolute diet has done confront person s case Troy when you provide that answer it may settle things and then tip the person over into committing suicide [Music] we picked the darkness because it hid people there were windows on the second level ladders with padding would be placed against the top window to stop the noise effects being heard inside if Troy or his wife Juhi heard people out the back or heard noises they would have gone out the back with the gun so Steve was to keep the conversation going as long as he could the tactical team told me now Steve we're gonna get him out we got a plan that we want you to keep them talking and I remember saying to him walk okay so what 20 minutes and he said easy twenty minutes we asked the welfare is there any possibility in the near future that would get the baby back and the welfare said I'm sorry but they can't change as part of the inquiry police detectives went to the house of the foster parents and we were getting information back from them the team put that information down on paper or up on whiteboards so I could read it without interrupting my conversation Troy was extremely mentally ill very mentally ill he'd attempted suicide he'd be married four times his first wife was killed in a car accident his second wife left him after a short time his third wife he found dead in bed when he wake up one morning essentially everything he had tried to do had led to a failed result whether to the crop grokken orphanages controlled environment all the way along his wife who was about 20 years older than him was also mentally ill the role of Troy's wife Judy in the siege was really to support and obey him she followed what Troy said and she was committed to what Troy wanted to do so she wasn't necessarily a hostage but in my view and at the time she was a victim those things were coming in all the time but you can't let your emotions get involved you can't do what you would normally do as a person you've got a tendency as an individual how you act normally how you would act in front of your family and friends you can't help but feeling you know a sigh or something like that to stop that or stifle it and keep going is is very difficult and the skill as a negotiator to taking that information and to be able to not react to it in any way while you're speaking to the person is part of the training [Music] heightened awareness just goes up our biggest concern was was the OED during the extractions both Troy and Judy were under optics if we lost sight of those at any point the extraction would stop the team had to go up the back steps we were minimizing the risk as best we could Troy was being kept out in the reception area with seve having Troy on the phone all that time I was standing near the negotiator without making a sound I got to the hour of keeping Troy talking and asking in gestures like how long has this got to go on because I was running out of things to talk about they just said keep talking keep talking the pressure would be quite extreme because the lives of 24 people plus the police team that had gone to rescue them that just adds an awful lot of pressure it was probably the the most excruciating period that I've had to deal with as a as a negotiator [Music] [Music] I resorted to talking to him about food getting food in there to look after the hostages and himself Judy and I remember getting a Chinese menu and going through every single item on the Chinese menu now for some reason he bought into it he became involved in the selection of the food and I even got him talking to how much how much was gonna cost and how was he gonna pay for it because you know it was his responsibility to pay for it the onus was placed on him to fund the actual food for the hostages not that it wouldn't have be provided anyway but by doing that he took responsibility for feeding his hostages there's a very powerful bonding with the hostages is that it's very difficult to carry out acts of violence against people you've actually actively feared and for whom you've provided comfort and so I was getting information from the psychiatrist all the way through the situation about tried this tried that and he would write notes too which was very annoying because you know if you have seen a doctor's writing trying to decipher that and try and talk to someone who's allegedly got a bomb and his father shot from a rifle here's a very difficult thing he can't read anything now now I'm responsible for that uh I don't have a good handwriting but I subsequently have learned to print so I ordered chicken chow mein the hostages or that spicy KFC he said I've only got this much money and I think I promised that I would I would pay for the for the remainder of the money but he owed it to me and he had to pay for it when he came out the key issue for him was to deal with his inadequate personality so what we wanted to emphasize was that he could be a good person hearing ful hostages [Music] they went up the back stairs of the building access the premises and the team in a number at a time I brought them down biggest nervous mammals when they were leaving that cause of the most eggs because they feared making noises which was going to alert Troy and Judy that there was someone on top of them well I did see was out of my peripheral vision while I was escaping Troy and Judy was the stream of off trapped people actually walking down the lane way you see those expressions of relief I remember feeling a lift in the team and it's good for progress and we were actually getting somewhere when the food delivery was made it appeared that they were satisfied with that and that they've done something good as a sniper but when you're staring at someone for such a long period of time you become familiar with their with their attitudes and their changes in demeanor it's a strange relationship that you build with someone when you're scoping down looking at them you develop this bond with them and then at some point in time in the future you'll ask yourself the question well I've got to keep this balance because it like I'm elevated carrying that all they do and something's gonna have to be done with them now we had to try and rescue the two hostages left [Music] what about letting men to the job I can't not till I know cuz I mean I'm concider better I know but if I let him go we detonate as soon as they get outside the door you wanted to speak to his foster mother as far as normal protocols in negotiation we don't allow third parties to become involved because got no control of what they're going to say of what they're going to do I've had situation where family said you know let me speak to them all be able to talk them out they'll listen to me my reaction is well if that was the case why are we discussing this around the family kitchen table because obviously something's happened beyond the understanding of the family and friends hello we've got a fire problem here what's the problem I just found an extra person we became aware that those another two hostages hiding somewhere making a total of four hostages still inside and is that I found someone what should I do and I said well thanks for telling me boys mana it wasn't as tense which I think surprised all of us in the negotiation team it was almost apologetic it was like you know he didn't mean to inconvenience or to to hurt anyone which again is a real positive for us then then he found the second person and I said we'll send them out which he did you sent him straight out we had reached a point where there was trust with the primary negotiator and that was a major negotiation strategy underpinning the discussion every time he behaved well towards hostages and looked after their well-being and the negotiators very quick to compliment him and encourage him to do more of them just not to think that you know perhaps both Judas and Troy have got some empathy towards these individuals and things are not going to get as bad as you know everyone may say when I say that happening it's sort of it sort of takes my finger off the trigger a little bit [Music] [Music] effect of time on negotiations is absolutely crucial the beginning of an operation what you have is a situation dominated by high fantasy high intensity of emotions what follows that is a much calmer phase of negotiation over time and in that process the idea is to build him into a position of relevance in the siege so that he can then take responsibility for insuring positive outcomes such as the world being of hostages and the way we do that is to emphasize his prowess and to not emphasize his inadequacy how about doing me a favor right now Troy one have it letting one of the girls go if one of them wants to go they can go but not two of them not to them I'm not saying - it's their choice you can speak to it it doesn't matter to me hello my sugar here hello Marissa listen I think of this stage we've I've gotta get over leave let one of you go he'll bet if you walk out Leslie wouldn't feel too comfortable she's very scared and she finds comfort in me being here I understand that certain extent but one of you should come out the two who had been there the longest and who had formed part of that stable quartet in this in the stronghold we're reluctant to be separated what occurs in the dynamics amongst hostage takers and hostages is that if there is no overt repetitive threat being played out there is often a stability in that environment that makes it harder for the hostages to unsettle that stability that has replaced their initial fears given that there was still the concern about a bomb it was very very important in those circumstances to get at least one of the hostages out what I'm saying is everybody okay okay just think about what I've said if the opportunity arises I would like one of you to leave [Music] it's likely Leslie okay now I've told you something very very difficult and I don't mean to put you in this sort of pressure on you you don't know how hard it is but know how hard it is I bet you've never been in this situation she said you don't know what it's like to be a hostage and I said I do I know what I know us like and I stopped myself but the words had already had gone it's amazing how many people fall for saying yes I know what it's like to be a hostage you're trying to get empathy and you're trying to get rapport but the real fact is there was hollow and it was it was stupid you know I have been you know doing this sort of work for a long time okay and I know how difficult this is for you Leslie I'm saying one of you must go it's the right decision Leslie can we have a little bit more time sure a couple of minutes it was gut wrenching to listen to because they were behaving as thoroughly decent human beings each concerned about the other [Music] Leslie had pushed majeure to help well there was some very tense negotiating by the primary negotiator and he was successful in getting them to understand the position without explicitly saying that you know one of you could you could both die or only one of you could die that was never articulated but it was implicit and they understood that and they then saw the the seriousness of the situation and came to the decision that they made was very brave fatigue is a quite a silent enemy in that people might become careless people might sense that the resolution of the operation is likely to happen soon because it suits them because they're tired and you get these subtle impairments of judgments the team leader said to me Steve you you're over you know that if you sound tired you you look tired you can't have people in a highly tense position and not having a break from time to time there was a conversation by mu saying I don't think that's right at the moment you know Roy protested I felt that I had a rapport that I hadn't finished the job I was 30 34 years old I was ambitious my wife would always say that that's the job came first but in the end was about being professional and and understanding the process and the victims they had a right to fresh negotiator [Music] he told people he was gonna blow everything up at midnight so when hostage-takers set deadlines the first thing indigo sea otters do is make plans about hague and a talk through the deadline for example if you've got an answer to a question and it's an hour from a deadline you might hold that answer for an hour and wait till five minutes before the deadline and say here I've got the answer to your question and let's talk about this one of the discussions in around the the deadline of midnight was whether I would carry through that 12 midnight deadline or whether we changed ago shadows so we decided to use the change of negotiator to be that way of talking through the deadline there's several ways to hand over to another ghost shouter one is two people can talk on the one phone call and say look I'll just introduce you to two Jayne but there's always the danger that while that's on that call Troy will say no I don't have bleep the giant tell her to go away and you're stuck but if you do a cold hand over and Jane says looks to his left to lift the truck he's odd to do something and I can't just get hold of you at the moment there's no choice so Jane did a cold hand over in other words she just ranked straight after odd spoken to him and in this case that hand over went extremely well and Jane took over and and took over the negotiation to get Leslie out so I stayed in the truck I performed the duties of a secondary negotiator listens and provided notes I believe Jane developed a very good rapport with with Troy and she was able to compliment him on a number of things that Troy strengths and Jane would always try and get him to make a promise that he would bring back to keep the conversation going and Leslie came out at 11:50 once it was done what you had was you'd reduce the stress and the pressure level on all the place and anyone else involved well I think for me getting all those people out through a negotiation you have so many downs and God made some you know some errors that I was highly critical of himself and that was a great success for familiy and gave me myself of a very personal lift [Music] later on he had sent another deadline price that if you didn't get his answers about his son by Sunrise he would killed himself and killed Judy once the hostages were all released safely the negotiators did what they're trained to do and that is to switch over into a suicide prevention operation and we didn't stop trying to get Troy and and Judy out of there getting Judy I was really important to me because I felt that she was a simple woman that was coerced into this situation that she wasn't really a party to it but she was going along with it but didn't really understand the ramifications giant had conversation with Jesus and and I felt that giant had a good rapport with Judas but whenever we thought that were getting somewhere she would just say I'll do whatever Troy wants for Troy there was this sense of relief when that actually released those four people and they appeared to relax a lot more you start to think that the negotiators are actually getting progress they're getting traction they've got a bond with them generally what follows from that is is a successful peaceful resolution is generally what flows but sometimes that doesn't always happen [Music] [Music] when I left the finally left the negotiators truck I believed that we would resolve it peacefully the second team that came in and took over kept on ringing and was getting no answer at all about 7:00 a.m. that morning entry was made to the premises [Music] [Music] I were found dead in the room Troy had shot his wife a number of times and that he then shot himself and I bumped him goes in at the end of the day it was found that they had no IDs whatsoever I was told about the tactical team found the bodies of Troy and Judy earlier that morning I felt devastated I think that's a story of a man with significant inadequacies who was failing virtually in all aspects of his life and I think in the end he saw that he had very few options and unfortunately he took his very dependent and wife with him what was in the back of my mind was we hadn't heard any shots but when you consider the the weapon that was being used you consider the environment that they are in when they actually fired the shots you wouldn't have you wouldn't have heard them anyway the problems that are going on in there in in their head must be selling some routable and you walk away thinking in my case could we done better well I don't know it's a little out I feel sorry for his whole life and he's lifestyle the way he was born up from scratch and while there's sense of sorrow in that there's also a sense of understanding and there is also a substantial sense of relief that there's been no innocent people killed or injured I felt that I'd failed I've had a number of number of negotiations where people had died over the years and all those negotiations of the one I remembered I don't remember the hundreds of negotiations where they were totally successful so these are the these are the things that imprinted in your brain unfortunately it's the most challenging area that you can be involved in is saving people's lives and it's not using lethal weapon in fact it's the reverse is using only words [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause]

Channel: CNA Insider

Views: 24,552

Keywords: cna, cna insider, cna insider documentaries, the negotiators, hostage situation, negotiation, real life crime stories, sydney siege, sydney hostage situation

Id: g3ym248E_h4

Length: 45min 20sec (2720 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 22 2020