A New Synthesis of Public Administration: serving in the 21st century

good evening ladies and gentlemen welcome to this evening's public lecture I will introduce my little shop in a moment first of all I'm going to welcome you on behalf of the LSE complexity group which is hosting this public lecture to turn alia also to tell you who I am because I expect most of you may not know me I only give Middleton Kelly and I'm the director of the complexity group at the London School of Economics you will understand in a moment the link between what is happening this evening and the complexity group the running order for the evening will be Jocelyn will speak for approximately 40 minutes then we will take questions from the floor and we will end the evening with a reception and they will there are also and what your swing to tell you is very much based on a book that just been published which is available outside for you for you to buying let me tell you a little bit about madam Joslin goes on and she is president of the public governance international and president emeritus of the Canada School of Public Service she's also a distinguished research professor at the University of Waterloo she has had a distinguished career in the Canadian public service has served as Deputy Minister of several major departments and our secretary to the cabinet for federal-provincial relations and later as clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet for five years she is the only woman to have held the latter position that the secretary to the cabinet in Canada or in any other g7 country so I think we're rather privileged to have her here this evening she has also published extensively all public and in 2008 you see the Sun Richardson award for her article the future of the public service assert for a new Balance Madame Rouge on is the recipient of six honorary degrees she was summoned to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada in 1998 and she has been a member of the Order of Canada since 2001 now as an expert in governance and public sector madam who shall provide advice to various governments and she was the project leader of the new services project now this is really what I want to tell you a little bit more about mother Bozo has done in the almost impossible she has brought together six governments to look at the new framework of governance for government using complexity theory the six government's are Australia Brazil Canada Netherlands Singapore and the UK what happened was each of the countries hosted a roundtable but also produced case studies locally of issues that were great challenges what Madame pooja has done is she has brought the inside all those room tables together in this book a new synthesis of public administration but I think what she retail is this evening is to outline that the framework of governance for government what you will also find in the book is a wealth an absolute plethora of cases that I think one or other or several will actually be be relevant to perhaps the areas you may be looking at so I will now like to introduce Madame Bhushan and ask it to talk to us about the framework now move over there thank you and thank you all for being here I realize that I did my usual which is it's not going to be an easy lecture I'm not going to make it easier by presenting all kind of examples but I'm assuming that in the course of the discussion you will move me to that by asking questions relevant in the circumstances and in the context and that is always the best way in my mind of learning from you but also discussing example which happens in the relevant in circumstances so what I will do is exactly what mrs. Eve Middleton Kelly said I will present to you the framework I'd like to say we forget the power of a mental map sometime and it's an interest thing to forget because there's nothing more useful than a good theory and nothing more dangerous that one that did not keep up with the time and I don't know how many of you are students of public administration or students or government or student of governance but there's a real risk that after 30 years of reforming we are not yet we have not yet built a capacity of government to face the challenges of their time and therefore we continue to do things on the basis of a mental map that we have deeply internalized and they are risk that more of the same is not going to get us closer to the goal so it's in part what is behind the journey that we call the new synthesis project now allow me to take a minute to recognize the fact that a project like this one be done by a person so it's not so much my book happened to be the one who are stats priced to write it but it's really a collective journey and these journey are not possible without many organizations coming together in many individuals making a contribution so in the context of this country I would mention organizations that have contributed the IFD the Cabinet Office the National School the Elysee and many others and people have contributed by being committed people like Casa de novo secretary to the cabinet and to adonis Michael Bouchard and many others Simon Willis and Martin steward weeks the work has been enriched by 200 people came by and contributed knowledge insights experience and so on and then in this country there's our long list Eve of course came to summer roundtable people you may know David all learning of Jeff Morgan Hillary cotton IRA Nika rod Clark Tony right and I would like to recognize sue Richards who was the chef up in this country for this initiative so I'm indebted to them all and multiply that by six countries I now have a long list of i/o use of a tool at least 200 people around the world okay so why did they all come together why was six country ask would you commit a bit of time and work together of questions as simple as what is different about serving in the 21st century and what are you doing in practice to prepare and why did they all say yes and in fact it was not hard to convince them everybody said yes the first time you were asked why is that because we're all facing the same challenges because we're practitioners are all working at the edge of what is known and we're all facing challenges for which we feel ill-equipped so six countries immediately signed on and 200 people over the course of 24 months contributed their knowledge and expertise debating two sets of question what is different if anything about governing and serving in the 21st century what are you doing in practice now in order to prepare your government for the challenges that stem from living in a post-industrial era two easy questions now the system the project was designed in such a way to make it what I call a blended approach we deliberately reach beyond the traditional disciplines associated to public administration or demonstration has been deeply influenced by constitutional law public law and political sciences we made it a deliberate commitment we made a deliberate commitment to reach into complexity theory complex adaptive system ecology sociology research on wellness life satisfaction and so on public administrator discipline we've relied heavily on case studies I'm not saying best practices I'm saying learning what is happening in practice learning from what works what doesn't work where does it work why did it work in the way it did at that time and at that place it was structured deliberately around international roundtable that were were going to bring together scholars member the Academy community community and practitioners that help us to bridge the divide between theory and practice and challenge both so we after two years of work we had such a wealth of testimony case studies material and so on that the decision to produce the book imposed itself now for those of you who may be student of public demonstration there are schools of public administration that would present domain as focusing on the structure the processes the methodology for the functioning of government I would suggest that public administration is primarily interested in the relationship between government society and citizens and that from time to time there are changes that reshape that relationship and we live in such a time that makes it a turbulent um it is creating unprecedented risk but also phenomenal opportunities to redefine the relationship between government people and society to reposition government to what they do best and to in the process to prepare society for the challenges of the 21st century so in spite of all the differences among the people came together at the various roundtable the 200 participants are talked about in different culture different context different level of development different languages different in spite of all of that we all agreed on two things and that was a surprise to me I thought it would be something we would debate for a long long time and in fact we came together very quickly on that we agreed that there are significant differences about serving in 21st century compared to any prior time and we agreed that the model of public administration that we've inherited from the Industrial Age will not be sufficient to government or society for the challenges that they have so cutting on your reading time I'm going to drive you some of the factors which what is different about serving in 21st century that would make it necessary to have a different way of thinking but the relationship between government and society so let me go to that and I should never forget to click from time to time this is the NS project you know and all about it now governing in turbulent time let's see if I can get this to kick yes I'm on the right slide okay first of all what is different well people in government today are facing an increasing number of complex issues like the people before them they will face their fair share of difficult problem an example would be eliminating a deficit this is a difficult problem they will face their fair share of complicated problems and they will need complicated initiative treaty negotiations is complicated trade negotiations complicated tax reform is complicated pension reform is complicated complex issues are different so they will have their fair share of difficult and complicated problem but it will face issues that cut across boundaries that don't fit in any boxes where multiple systems are interacting with each other and transforming each other they will deal with issues that entail a very high degree of uncertainty volatility they are prone to cascading failures they display emergent characteristic they transform as actions are taking place and no one is totally in charge and no one has all the tools to bring about a viable solution complex issues are multi-dimensional and whenever you try to them to a single dimension you're on the verge of making a dramatic mistake by taking a solution prescribing a solution which is uni-dimensional you're about to make the problem even worse complexity and uncertainty are characteristic of the world that we live in a second factor people in government today are the first generation of public servants serving in the world where virtual communities transform the public policy issues as well as the context within which we will have to address these issues the public sector reforms that were introduced before 1990 mid 1990s predate the general use of the internet and the reform that have been introduced prior to 2000 predate the rise and the strong impact of social media and social networking modern information and communication technologies transform the world we live in but they also transform the relationship between government people and society they contribute to complexity the increased complexity because they increase the density of connections but they also provide new tools to deal with complex issues so a conclusion flowing from these observation is that government cannot prepare itself and prepare society for the challenges of the 21st century with the tools of the 20th century and we cannot address or find solution to the complex issues or intractable problems of our time by relying on the practices of the Industrial Age doesn't work a third different yes there's an increasing disconnect between the complexity of the issues were facing citizen expectation and what government can actually do in practice an increasing number of policy results require exceed the capacity of government they entail a shared responsibility do you require a collective effort and valuable solutions can only be framed with the participation of multiple actors and the contribution of citizens families and communities now you can think of a number of issues that would meet this definition issues of national interest like health education safe streets issues of international interest like security energy supply global issues like financial crisis sovereign debt issues or climate change in all these cases the role of government is increasingly to lever the capacity and the power of many others to co-create solution and to co-produce results because they are the only one that bring momentum and bring quite concerted actions and just for good measure I would add my fourth point which is people government today are also expected to find ways to reduce tensions in a world with seven million people sharing and increasingly increasingly fragile biosphere so in summary I would say government are called upon to serve in a context which is characterized by complexity volatility on credit unpredictability and that puts a premium on some capacities it puts a premium on the capacity to anticipate emerging trends and emerging issues on the capacity to entity proactive enter vention without certainty with imperfect knowledge no safety net and no guarantee of success but you have to try you have to try to reduce risk when the cost will be borne by society as a whole and you have to try to anything proactive intervention that may bring about a more desirable outcome or a better future unless you do there are significant consequences to that what I just described are not the traditional capacity that we have built in government and I'll come back to that unless you do then we know what is the trend and we just have to read the newspaper every morning and to map out the the way issues are evolving traditional approaches are leaving government in a reactive position reacting in a crisis mode when the cost is the highest and the risk of consequences for the most vulnerable in society is the highest as well over time if erodes trust and over time it erodes confidence in public institutions now so let's say it's not dramatic well I think it is because it could be that the importance of institutions is greater today and it has never been so declining trust from time to time in government ears or in government could lead to a change of leadership or even a change of government but declining confidence in the city of institutions to serve the collective interest or declining trust in our own ability to care for herself and build for herself a better future creates instability it leads to even more uncertainty it leads to even more complexity and pretend it has a potential for chaos so none of that should be taken for too lightly so let me move you into the framework so after two years of work what is the new synthesis proposal well the new synthesis argues that the role public organization is to achieve results of ever-increasing public value at a lower overall cost for society and to do it in a manner that builds the collective capacity to achieve better results over time now each time I say that I have two simultaneous transfer reaction first one is to say I'm really gifted for discovering the obvious and then as a practitioners with more experience that I were there to talk about I realize that although it sounds simple it is in fact a phenomenal shift about the role of government the role public institutions and the role of public servants it is a shift of focus from not secretly yes the shift of focus from agency results to system-wide and societal results it it is asking us to look at results as a collective enterprise we've been focusing 30 years of reform on agency results we have 30 years of reform at looking at how we can do more with less how we can increase efficiency and productivity we have not been asking our how do we make sure that those improve the performance of society and by that I mean economic performance social quality of life wellness life satisfaction it asked us to look and results not as something government does but as a collective enterprise it is expanding the space of possibility to sway beyond where what has been the definition and the focus of attention of government it positions the role of government in an ecosystem that brings together government society and people this is not your traditional mental map of public administration which is they are elected once elected their decision amount to public serving the public interest to delegated authority we implement decisions and every five years there will be a chance to course-correct or to modify priorities this is way more complex and it is closer to an open system which is a complex adaptive system than a mechanical model which is the one on which we've been working now put yourself in the shoes of a public illustrator in there it means that those are four independent vectors by the way this is not plus one minus one kind of game and at the end you just you are just a duck in the picture and this one you have four vectors and you have to try to optimize the relationship between them to find your way forward in the context of your country in the circumstances in light of your mission with the constraint of your existing resources and capacity so you have to mediate between public policy results and civic results public policy results when you're looking at the big picture it's going to give you a sense of direction it's going to give you a measure of the progress of society as a whole so for a public and Strader is make it means where does my agency fit in what does it contribute to which is system-wide and how am I making a contribution that improve the performance of society it says that a public servant serve a public purpose which happened to take shape within the program you administer but that is not the extent of the definition of a row of public servant and you have to mediate that progress along that value-added chain with another one which is how does what you're doing today as a public servant in the program you're in ministry of the agency of which you're part of how does that contribute to building the Pacific the civic result or the collective capacity for better results how does it contribute to self-reliant individual how does it contribute to building resilient communities how does it contribute to a civic spirit that is conducive of collective action it's not one or the other you need to achieve both to achieve these results you're using everything we're very familiar with you're using all the instrument of government which is the capacity to legislate to produce regulation to tax to spend to be ultimately in the garden and the stewards of the collective interest in all circumstances even the less predictable circumstances so what this really means is that your public and Strader not only has to move along to vectors to improve results of value to society it has to use all the powers and authority vested in the program and unit that you're managing to deliver the collective capacity and it is at that price that you can move up the to value-added chain sounds simpler than it is and in the second part we will if you want work through some example but this is a significant shift it means things like nothing of value is created if by solving a problem in one system you just transfer it to another financial insolvency for debt sovereign debt problem so you fix something here you just transfer it there it means that nothing of value is created when the actions you are taking today simply mean that we're going to collectively face problems of greater complexity down the line some would think of example related to climate change nothing of value is created when the cost of the choices were making today are at the expense of the capacity of future generations to save the future of their jobs by simply transferring the boredom so the game becomes it's like playing a Rubik's Cube it is quickly more complex than it appears at first glance so when you become more adept playing within the framework you're starting to see that the system is Co evolving you're trying to have a government that is able to adapt to changing circumstances and Co evolving with society the book will give you numerous example of the difference it makes in practice and you start framing desired outcome in societal terms in a positive way and in the manner that opened the space of possibility for the way you can combine and recombine their divorce leavers so the framework is arguing that to prepare government for the 21st century we need an emergency function a resilience function a performance function and a compliance function an emergence function to anticipate course-correct and shape emergent solution a resilience function to build a capacity of society to adapt and to prosper even in the face of adversity a performance function to work across boundaries and across domain and a compliance function to ensure social order set priorities allocate Andriana Kait resources so let's look at them this is where public administration comes from it comes from a compliance model public let me start by saying you don't prepare a government for the challenges of the future by misunderstanding the importance of the assets we have created and that we enjoyed today so the first step is to value and defend and protect the institutions that have been created that has given given us a fantastic comparative advantage compared to other countries who do not have the same institutional capacity public institutions matter they give us a regime of law they give us legitimacy for the exercise of power they give us due process these value compliance they help to ensure certain provide certainty stability all of these factors have contributed immeasurably to the success of countries like yours mine and many others that through the 20th century we're going through the process of change related to democratization and industrialization however the public organisations under that model operate more or less as a closed system and closed system have a tough tough time detecting emerging issues and system design to ensure compliance are not wired for innovation so there are reasons why so many reform introduced over a long period of time 25 to 30 years many of them have evolved and disappeared over without needing much of a trace because over time the traditional system reaffirms so to be fit for the time public institutions that are designed for stability predictability and compliance but also being able to be used to serve in unpredictable circumstances to invent practical solution to intractable problem and they have to be used to build the resilience of society even in the face of adversity and for that we need new capacities now do not let behind what has been created before but at the same time there's a need to acknowledge that it is not sufficient to prepare government and society for what it's coming for that we need new capacity and I would go to emergence everything I'm about to mention already exists in practice somewhere in the world and everything I'm about to mention is supported by interesting example that you may want to read about the difficulty in the context of the new synthesis project was to find how how to rise above the individual initiative and find how the pieces may fit together but the challenge for all of us wherever we may be is what do we have to do for government and societies for their capacity to invent solution to keep pace with the increasing complexity of the context in which we all live so let's look at some of the initiative and practices that exist elsewhere for government to be fit for the future we need much much better than speed of capacity and there are countries that have been investing years of effort to improve their in speed of capacity now as a colleague of mine said many times you don't build the anticipated you just want to say I'm a better picture projection you want to do it because you want to make better decision you want to make better decision that gives you a better outcome better results and a comparative advantage for your country that's why you're doing it if you look at the countries that have been investing 10 to 15 years I would say in building their anticipated capacity one observation you can make quickly that the broader the conversation about possible future the better you are the greater the diversity of perspectives you bring to the conversation and the better your capacity to detect emerging issues but as I said this is not going to be enough it's one capacity it builds it gives you an asset but it's not enough to get the benefit of your enhance capacity to anticipate emerging issue you need the combined benefit of anticipation invention and innovation and I'd like to just make you curious about the distinction between invention and innovation inventive solutions manifests a different way of thinking that breaks from the past and it recombines factors that exist at that time at that place it may not entail the quantum of newness that you expect in an innovation but it makes a world of difference and again you will find example in the book about the differences that inventive solutions can make we look at health services in Scotland self-regulated model in Charlotte we look at a different way of providing services for elders in Denmark inventive solutions imply a form of experimentation on the ground they are part of the context where they will be implemented now supporting inventiveness you don't find systems that do that extremely well what you find is a culture or a mindset it doesn't reflect amid MiniMed his view of government where you leave it to pick the pieces after market failures it doesn't reflect a government centric view of government either where solutions always mean more resources it is a form of affirmative concept of the state the role of the state where it is the job of government to look for better ways of doing thing at a lower cost innovation innovative society have the capacity to achieve better results with or without government there again government can play a role and you find governments which are way more attentive to that dimension they create an environment that facilitates self-regulation and self-organization it support infrastructure like public utility for your information communication infrastructure public beta as a source of innovation and recombination to create new system all these measures together over time when you accumulate them gives you an innovation ecosystem no matter how smart we are and how innovative we're going to be an inventor to be unpredictable events will take place unpredictable crisis will emerge and therefore the role of government extend to building the resilience of their society now there again you're likely to see that resilience is going to become the focus of attention in reform in a number of countries as it is becoming the center of attention of more academic research and for good reasons there are many factors that contribute to resilience but one thing it does is that no matter what the future hold for you resilient individual resilient communities have a better capacity to absorb short to learn from them and to emerge stronger and again you can easily map out similar events around the world and so society will emerge stronger and others will not recover or barely recovered years later so really resilience make a huge difference in the capacity to absorb learn and prosper to support that you need many things but let me mention a few some of resilient policies for instance are easy to test because they bring about positive results across system economic social political environmental technological they reduce dependencies on one single way of doing things and therefore they reduce the risk of the to fail too big to fail syndrome that we have seen in various places around the world resilience system of an internal surplus capacity not only to absorb shock but to avoid catastrophic failures there again you can think of example around the world a focus on resilient in the design of policy creates space for the active role of citizens family and communities as venue creator as actress and one aspect that was striking for many of us was that recent research seems to indicate that the more active the role you give other actors citizens communities the greater the contribution to life satisfaction and wellness there's something very interesting there so if I had to bring that back to where the story belong which is many years of reform that we have all been conducting in your country and many others the if you go back to the reform agenda over a long period of time you will find that most of them have focused on the inner workings the inner functioning of government they focus on structure more centralized more decentralized more agency less agency bring it to the center move into the fringe work at the edge bringing that connected they focus on systems and practices more with less less with less introducing modern technology they have focused on efficiency and productivity and user satisfaction they've done good things but the sum total of these reform do not prepare a government or society for the type of the changing landscape I was trying to describe for you in the first part there's a pressing need of not subversion but pressing to shift the focus of attention from the efficiency of the part to the effectiveness of third there is a pressing need and a good case to be made to shift the focus of analysis from agency results to societal results public agencies if I go back to my performance for one they were built and they were design for the mass production action of standardized public services and they do this well they've been designed to ensure predictability and stability in the windy services are provided but if they are going to rise to the challenges of the type of challenges I was talking about they also need to become cooperation platform co-creation platform and co-production platform so a word on age and then I stopped working across boundaries is a characteristic of public administration in 21st century the year our keiko model that is familiar to all of us may be the way departments have organised and for good reasons but distributed network is the way we get the job done and that's not about to change this is not about to disappear and we have years of admonition but the need for hold of government approaches we have years of ammunition for the need for innovation but there's an increasing disconnect between these and munition and what public servants are facing in practice and to make sure that hierarchy and network coexist harmoniously side by side without undue pressure or tension between them there are very basic things that need to be done one we need to align the incentive system in favour of cooperation instead of we were rewarding working in isolation we need to disentangle compliance system from performance management system and I would be happy to go back to that and explain why and we need to go back to our basic system of budgeting reporting and accountability to take account of shared responsibility for collective enterprise those are not rocket scientist it's not even complex it's basically engineering but unless it is done it is not possible to pretend that we really want agencies to be innovative to work across because we are not giving them the infrastructure from which they can do it if there was a point on which there was a high degree of consensus among the six country and participating in the project was the disturbing disconnect between what we say and what we have been actually doing in practice in support of hierarchy and network working together co-creation in the traditional approach we have a tendency to look at a policy that as a policy as a decision and decisions are made as if government was in control of the issue and as if a decision was sufficient to bring about the results but in reality since an increasing number of issues are beyond the reach of government policies our experiment in progress policy decision and implementation cannot be divided we are inseparable and a successful policy response to an issue complex issue in particular depends on the capacity of government to bring together service provider interested parties user beneficiaries and so on so public organisations need to continue to do what they do well and on top of that they need the capacity to work as co-creation platform to design to test and to experiment various options and different ways of doing things and there again we have found we're still finding fantastic example of the difference it makes when you're co-creating solution with users and beneficiaries what I find so interesting is that we have found an example where co-creating the solution gives you much better result at a lower total cost for society and in theory I presume this should be of interest for any country or facing stringent fiscal constraints there are many ways to eliminate a deficit one of them is to win find and to invent a better way of achieving result another one is to share the responsibility differently between government people in society we may come back to that if that is of interest to you co-production co-production is not a new word or a new excuse for devolution offloading and Costco co-production refers to the coming together of multiple actors and in particular the users as value creator introducing the results and there again we try to provide example some of them quite fantastic in the health sector children with complex disease and multiple diseases elder capacity of maintaining elder at homes and so on co-production opens a new avenue between a simpler way of looking at the world which is an issue is either public or private it is opening a space in between which is basically saying a matter of social interest as a private public and civic dimension to it and in that extended space you have better options than a simply government-centric option or market centric option in the end all the pieces must fit together what is this this is not the right diagram but will cope with it everything must fit together and the challenges before us cannot be addressed in the usual way cannot be address in the mechanic model that we have created which is the reflection of the Industrial Age it works it has worked well and it will continue to work well for what it does well it does well everything that is related to a high degree of predictability it works well for mass production of uniform services or standardized services in a relatively stable and predictable environment we need something else so that government can also do more than what it was able to do before we need new capacities to make sure that we can anticipate what might be we need the capacity to make proactive intervention to prevent what can be prevented and we need new capacity to adapt to what will be and that is resilience in a way what I'm saying is that traditional approaches should be respected and valued and that is the starting point of building capacity but they are too narrow to accommodate today's reality and to guide practitioners action and the reform to date have been insufficient to give us the solutions or the elements of solutions to problems that stem from living in a post-industrial era so the new synthesis project is taking us that far it is a modest contribution but nothing significant because it is basically challenging the mental map and the intellectual framework that we have taken for granted for so long and it is also telling us that more reform of the same type will not get us where we want or need to be so it has taken us that far and it's about to enter into a new phase as we expand the conversation from six to much more country from 200 participant to many more and as we extend the scope of the if we want to have a chance to have government fit for their time on some issue at least on some issues are thinking need to be ahead of the time and that is going to be the next step for the new synthesis project as the ns6 become and his work we are going to move the information on the website and then we will see how we frame the researcher tent going forward and you may want to check from time to time we're not hard to find maybe part of the next chapter in that journey thank you then usually when you ask a question please can also say who you are and your affiliation and where you from and can I request that they are questions not long statements you can you're very welcome to make a comment but not another lecture so don't have anyone going to ask a question yes to here hi there I'm Terry drew I do lots of different things at the moment so to report failure worker from what you were saying there seems to be some parallels between the societal changes in the do you think we're entering a similar stage of the progression of humankind if I might put the bar is going to be where we have the ability ingenuity to shape I think what this is saying is that do node was sown but the linear projection of what we've been doing is going to support it number one do not assume that the element of the circumstances in which we are are the extension of what we have been experiencing before and therefore let's hold together so that we can be demonstrations because the old one or the traditional one will continue to do traditional things will we be enlightened I don't know I really hope that we build the capacity of society and government in a way that keep pace with the increasing complexity of what we're facing and it's not obvious right now are we keeping things normal is the world becoming complex faster than our capacity to deal with the emerging issues yes so is it optimistic because is it beyond our capacity but are we keeping pace right now the Nazis this is an oblique way of dealing with there are real ways see we didn't know government did not anticipate the impact of communication technologies in the way they are transforming society they were not ready for the impact of mass media and social media they were not ready for biologically modified agriculture products they were nothing I mean there are so many elements on which we were not quite ahead of the thinking so that the proper environment regulatory regime and so on could be thoughtful so yes we can continue to just just in time behind the facts or we can say okay what are the capacities that I need to build that give me an inch and we may or may not usually yet but let's field it and this is saying we can build so in that sense very optimistic gentlemen but but please speak into the microphone I'm gay Mahesh adept student but a civil servant from India and you have selected those six countries you missed out India's part of the BRICS in work but but anyway you talked about the challenges of the 21st century you listed them I found corruption was not present in one of the challenges why is it so and P is this framework applicable to the to the developing countries as well where there is corruption whereas there is an extractor is lack of secular governance can that model work in this context thank you the framework does not go from issues to describing how the environment is changing for governing so it doesn't talk about the rise of China and the rise of India and the threat for security and the transition from energy to two other former it doesn't it's not any the matrix of issue announces I mean there are all kind of announces that do that what are the drivers have changed in the world it did not look at it that way so in that sense it doesn't talk about corruption in the sense that you just mentioned is the framework relevant to developing countries my guess was initially not really but I'm rethinking that and I'm going to mention two things it was used by the conference of Commonwealth Secretariat which are developing countries by and large and my great surprise was the agility within which people were playing from compliance to resilience immediately immediately because they have strong communities because they have a strong culture sometimes too much relationship at the family level or expanded family level so but they played immediately between compliance and resilience and I thought there was a humbling lesson there it's going to be used again at the Commonwealth association or for demonstration and management by new contracts in daily in October and they will have workshop testing it for various normal country so it will be fascinating give me your card and I will give you the results of their work but the apophysis now is that yes it would work for developing countries what it weren't for LV seats the lesson link love in countries I have series that but let's find out behind you so that we can be looking at it the same working while you're doing that okay GOx I work for a local government and political you Wobblies Esme Wilcox work for lady of minutes I'm really interested in how you engaged with some of the politicians around this because that seems to be one of the key challenges how you have how you engage politicians in something which isn't about them having the answers and where the forces are for them to come up with kind of a reductionist theory because that's how that's what gets Miletus so really interested with that well that's interesting too I would fight temperature at first going to be working with elected or failing schools I've been pushed back through sufficiently rather than s5 in the way I approach ministers and you know what I'm discovering is that they feel because the one stable point of the whole framework is this would you start a game playing with the vectors from there and that's where they are so and at the same time it gives them comfort because instead of sitting your decision is the fun will be all done and all for a solution to the problems of the world you're saying you're part of it so you almost have a sigh of relief as if you're working properly with them that they are not or should not be expected to have the answer to all of it they should be expected to foresee can you say proactive intervention and to encourage others to do what they can they are in this position to do so it changed the space within which you allowing them to play I was telling a minister after being pushed back you know about what's in it for you minister I totally Minister that I would never again draft a question and answer for question period for a minister the way I did in the past I said I've done the question I gave them to answer I would still give the minister the answer but I would help the minister frame the issue so that the government is doing but in order to run it requires that citizens of communities and others and we have framing the issue and would help them reconcile the need for short term actions with the longer timelines to achieve complex results which I was not trained to do you must have the answer on all questions at all kind well I can afford to look back at what I've done and say well that was a disservice to some of my goons I can do better now different phase in my life but I would do it differently so our Minister is comfortable with this more than I thought and that was your reasoning on your raise the question and you can tell what you can see why when you start thinking for them right or in their face they are here they have the authority of this date we have the authority of government they can tax we can spell they can regulate and they know better than most what are the limits of that authority they can tax to build a scale that is not enough to create healthy population they can stand to have public school this doesn't gives you literacy people learn and countries spending way less than others in health and education a better societal results so other factors are at Lee and they are not there they are here and they there and ministers know that in their bone they know the limit the power of what they have on the limit of what they have and when you start exposing Lansing ministers it is a shared responsibility it's a collective effort you can just see when it goes to the issues you're dealing with within the Moores what this does is give more space to find solutions or to explore but it does what my predictions yes I think it's it don't actually think about this framework in as the what it helps us to think through how to co-create an enabling environment and I think this is the key because to address any kind of complex challenge we cannot address it in one dimension correct it cannot be just finance or just restructuring or just culture it is there are multiple issues that have to be addressed at the same time why because they are multiple causalities which create and recreate a complex issue and they influence each other changing it now the point is how can we think about co-creating an enabling environment using that framework and I was wondering if perhaps this may be the time to give us at least one example that may illustrate it and then I'll take the other questions I'll give you one example quickly and anymore the example the first example is in the book it I'm going to take a case which is law and order because normally there's somebody who's saying well that's interesting which is a nice way to start a question this is so interesting but my mission or my organization is in law and order and therefore does not apply to me so I'd like to take the case of Singapore the people managing the prison network in Singapore the manager they are agency they manage a network of agencies and as agencies they have fantastic results as the gentleman in charge of the jail system said nobody has ever escaped they are not getting injured in jail they are safe we protect them and we have good ratio for the use of resources to the number of people in jail so from an agency perspective I the manager I'm doing a great job I should get a bonus by the way and performance Balian whatever comes however once an inmate always an offenders and you will have no second chance in society and therefore it took what was an agency result if I can go back eventually it took what was an agency result and framed it as a societal desire result and he said we should be contributing to the successful reintegration is open mate except why because it means that you know who to waste all this human capital it means that they will be productive in society it means you lower your cost you improve your results so this is really framing from the perspective of an agency where do I fit in and what can I contribute to society so the successful reintegration of ending as soon as you do that as soon as you move outside of the walls of your agency you're now framing it with the complexity in the multiple dimension of the issue and you're going to see immediately well I cannot do it from where I am true enough so then you have to ask who else can contribute to this and you have to search for the connection between multiple actors and multiple agencies in their case what they choose to do was to work for two years at changing public opinion because unless public opinion is prepared to give a second chance everything else is going to fail so they went from society desired societal result to Civic results which is changing public opinion after two years they made progress and they started to see that it was possible for employers come forward for job employment double portunity which in turn made it possible for families to support their own which made it possible for the AIDS offender to believe that a chance was possible and to invest in their skills with merely possible to change the way you were using your staffing agency with much less resources you could have more mentor and coach them than orders they have 10 years of data so you need some patience in public policies to see the results but after 10 years of data you see reintegration going ups cost to society going down now is it the ideal justice system nobody is saying that and they said a journey for themselves where they can map out if they are achieving progress yes do you have evidence that they are getting closer to the desired outcome yes it's at the end of the journey well it never ends whatever you do become the base from which you're going to explore again this space of possibility it never ends and I'm Hendrik marketer and from University of Sheffield but I'm asking this question in my capacity as a citizen of the netherlands one of the countries in Europe your project and I find it a fascinating story of progressive public administration and I recognize a lot of it in local government local governance so this is this drive to experiment to co-produce surfaces with citizens and other societal actors focus on on what you call Civic results etc etc I don't recognize this at all at the national level effect they're actually a regressive movement we're an elite retrench is within their offices tries to develop policymaking in a very authoritarian style in a data free environment ideologized in most issues etc etc I would like you to comment on this disconnect and is listen I don't think it's just the Netherlands here between the local government and national what it means for your model most of the issues we were talking about or national in fact one of the weakness is that we did not have a lot of the local example and we had we have even fewer global true global example so the material that came forward was national issues by and large so that's the substance from which we we extracted that keep in mind that this is looking from academic research to what is happening in practice in bite-size so in every country you're going to find diamonds or diamonds in the rough of something which is inspirational that has a lot of potential and so on and when you blend the two and you say you've had to synthesize what is coming from research and what is could operate the period here and there in practice how would it all fit together it gives you a framework it doesn't mean that you're going to find a country that mapped this out right so you're going to work on anticipative capacity and you will find that in the UK there has been interesting example to create a foresight capacity but you're going to find that Singapore has been creating systems which are probably among the best in the world and you're going to find that finland has created a community of the future that brings parliamentarian looking twenty five years out does it mean that any one of these three countries do everything describing as capacity in the framework of course so this is not based on some country or exemplary and others are not it is of the some of our ingenuity of the some of what we know and what is happening so we know it can be done if we had to integrate a different mental map and the one from which we've been working what would it look like and then it's for every country in their circumstances to decide what they do I know of country not too far from me that can read the case from Singapore and jail and say it doesn't matter to me I want them to stay in jail for as long as possible and if they have no future it's okay so it's a choice if this is not telling you what is the right choice or the wrong choice it helps to reveal the consequences of artists choices easy it's a lens to mental map but what is interesting is the power of a different mental map combined with different ways of doing things in terms of the range of options you should suddenly have and connectivity between all these four states that I've not explored today and will explore so is a major major factor major fact those are not for isolated space they all play together and that gives you a capacity to reveal the consequences of choices and you can control decide whatever path they want to follow my name is Eileen Cohen and I'm speaking partly to form a public policy official in the Treasury in the UK and also as an active community citizen and I've been working for some time from complexity theory and complex adaptive systems to think about the relationship between what I call organizational dynamics of the citizen ring and the relationship to the kinds of systems that you're talking about here so the question is going through my mind is and I resonate with it and I think that where I'm working is in the bottom right hand corner and the dynamics in the citizenry and how it relates to all that but the question that's going through my mind is is that a mental model for the public policy official does it include and incorporate the area that I'm working in which is actually not those authority systems but the systems the dynamic human quite different dynamics of the citizenry and how they interact so that's really and I mean it doesn't matter what the answer is I'm just interested in what your thought is and I'd very much like to have some way I'm linking the model and different mental model that I in designing for the relationship between the citizenry in all this interrelated into yours so I'm very glad that there's some kind of way you're now expanding your activity I would be curious not to hear about the work you're doing under mr. Church you're a fan of the firm of hours and I was living at ETSU Richard's a lady from Brazil when we were working this told us one day at one of the roundtable this is the own information framework we have that brings the citizens I mean the mom we've been working from either what we call the classic of administration power is people are voters taxpayers users our beneficiaries they are not actors you are not value creator they are not contributors and they should not disrupt the well-organized machinery of public agencies this is very very stark right so the mob will start from the classical model start from once upon a time they have the right to vote once they have exercised that right those they have left make decisions these decisions among serving the public interest these decisions are implemented with minimal variation in a predictable way in a stable environment and what this is saying is that doesn't compute with the world in which we are the urban citizens are what you have it's safe and they have ways to make sure that they have a say they want to have voiced choice actions decisions participation contribution and therefore any concept public in this region that doesn't bring people in is behind by at least on this earth behind by a long time so what this is trying to do is to bring people as actors as political being anything people with society and government after all government are public institutions we've created to look after the collective interests so I make theatre teachers to know what you're doing but where it is clearly trying to bring people in in many many many ways I think we will have plenty of time on during the reception so Eileen I hope that you join us for a glass of wine and then have a long chat with them Jocelyn thank you yes thank you - related to the gentleman from Sheffield that was the last part for me I am shown for the social researcher from voice of London my question is a curiosity of hope in the question of compliance and its relation to the Western osed countries who seem reluctant to opt out over the 20th century post-industrial mindset which reference to compliance particularly international level rather than the local level for example things like the climate change at Copenhagen the conference and with reference to the euro how do you think that your framework or the new synthesis can be applied considering current turbulent times we live in any possibility it's two aspect that I'd like to separate in which this is arguing that compliance is a good thing controls are everything if you have a love and a little law you need to be able to enforce them there's not much point making that's another story so come this is not saying compliance it is a bad thing it is saying it's a good thing but be careful that you do not use the regulatory power to propose things you have no capacity to in 40 and no capacity for which to new capacity to ensure compliance because if erodes the credibility what you're doing so it is arguing that there's a place for compliance there's a place for control mechanisms is a place for overseeing the implementation this compliance approach doesn't work too well for truly complex issues because no one has the power but the authority to make it happen go kind of changes a good example there is no one no global forum no international forum media Felicity or any country that can say I decide to make a lot that I will enforce and this isn't your millet in the world of compliance so when you're dealing with climate change it is the coming together of many minds and framing a problem definition of people can support it gives you the chance for concerted inaction and move you forward it's a different space you're much more in the emergent space that I was talking about yes you need some institutional capacity behind and yes the UN resolution matter and we see the statement matter but we should not assume that this is equivalent to compliance it is more policy intent it is moral situation it is policy direction but you're really trying to find a space where people can come together with a common public definition and give them a chance of acting in a concerted way so it is not a law-and-order model that you're talking about you're really talking about a different different process it's multi-dimensional it is all sectors are connected we economy the social the environmental the technological click on one another you're really dealing with the difference base your knowing more modal and that's the issue right I mean we have international meaning we write a document we seem to think or pretend that we've now made a law that we can enforce well when you have Authority it's very important to understand the limit of your authority it's a source of wisdom you wish to come back it's really really stimulating what you said not this model you talked about say within a country and the international public policy with little bit differences when benefits in if it's an issue of international public policy international public policy as I said we did not work with enough material which were truly global issues one of the discussion we're going to have is with the Martin school and others where we would like to test the framework I'll come back - the difference between model and framework a global and international issues as I said the work is 24 months of work it is what it is so not enough test that the true local level not enough depth and truly complex international issues my important system is that it could work but we need to you need to do it properly okay model and Trevor this is not about a model is un answer okay so the classic model of public administration give you a definition which is finite gives your box you're in it okay the new public management was an extension of the tactical model this is a framework you have no answer you have to work out the answers for yourself in the context of your country and the issue you're trying to resolve the results you want to achieve with the capacity you have and the way you will go about it will be vastly different if you're a developing country an emerging economy or depending on the culture in the country it doesn't give you a fixed answer it says trying to move on to value chain better result greater collective capacity for better results over time I have the authority I have wills can contribute to that how do I bring all of them together it gives you a space to explore doesn't give you the comfort of an answer this is tough it's demanding yes thank you my name is Sarah Walker from the Institute Development Studies at Sussex ah that was really really quite illuminating and I'm particularly impressed that you managed to combine so the work of panarchy into into this into this framework here is that's quite theoretical well done I'm actually wondering two questions then we're hoping to be embarking on a similar journey although it's not it's very much in flux at the moment and we're hoping to be doing so primarily within the context of emerging markets and in that context the way in which systems are very much emerging is one in which there isn't they're not fighting as much against an old model so it's not old model versus new model let's create new model that's a less of an issue much more of an issue is we have lots of different actors together particularly the private sector and you get any sort of networks at both local weather and meta level and how you how would you imagine these framework sort of working with private sector and citizen and public sector domains where it's it's not it's not a clear-cut which ones which right and I mean I know you've you're quite aware of how much these things overlap anyway but so how where these RC does other sectors of society playing a role in a framework like this you will need to do that every one of the four vectors so if I look at public policy results remember I said quickly it's about economic performance standard of living quality of life wellness and life satisfaction it's a fan and then I said well this framework is trying to bring government people in society Society again it went very quickly on that Priscilla this is a matter of a scope of collective interests nobody into public a public dimension and private dimension or civic dimension and many others so if you take spectra and expand it then you will look at when do I do it through the market when do I do through civic society how does it all interplay there's a limit to how much you can do in setting like this one or by using four vectors but you're right all of that is behind every one of your record each one is multi-dimensional that's basically what I'm saying but then everybody would get lost I mean it was complicated enough did you want to compact this but we there's something about the public policy results I'm wondering to get actually like if that wasn't specifically about public policy what is it about gives you to say a bit more about what's really what you really mean by that it's a societal result at the end okay so if you are if you start from I'm in government somewhere I'm part of an agency an agency serve more than the program and services and the administrator they serve a public purpose so where do you fit in where does that program is service an agency fit in what are you contributing to that is broader than you is the question who would ask a public servant managing your program so my manners and I manage a program for New Guinea creation of children to reduce child mortality so my public purpose is more than to give in a condition to children I'm part of the effort of many in society to reduce child mortality well who else is contributing to that people themselves their family schools doctors the quality of water depending on where you are in the world access to food and so it gives you skin start it's a said this is the most stable of all the vectors and then everything is moving so what is this part of that is bigger than the program surface and the agency what is the system-wide I just gave an example of system-wide how does that contribute to societal result and societal results are multi multi-dimensional it cannot be used to GDP or GDP per capita in that sense very compatible with the work done by the OECD saying if you want to get a scorecard of the performance of your country you need a basket of indicators and you need an T's for baskets in that sense the work we've done is quite compatible and that's what I mean if you want to unpack each one then you have multiple dimensions behind each one actually coming to the end so I've seen at least three hands so can we take all three questions and then you can answer them as a group gentlemen at Midland there was one other hand I am confused from involve and I'm interested in if if I were a public manager what advice would you give me in terms of helps you and if I were I guess sold on the need for this advice would you give me in terms of building capacity within my organization to two acts in within this world this seems that if if you look at the framework in terms of within the organization we've tended to work through the compliance and performance side of that so what do we need to do on the other side of that framework within organizations to make them kind of ready hi I'm Laura I'm a student in political theory here at the LSA I'm just interested in this dynamic of resilience and if you could give us an example of successful government policies or technologies that have stimulated this capacity for resilience in the citizen now I am because Jenner I'm a research officer with the complexity group here at Elysee my question is people might participate but they don't want to are maybe in some cases so for instance I'm thinking of the recent announcement by David Cameron he says that all patients in England can be researchers so the data relating to health records of those patients are going to be put online so how does your framework help us understand that situation today we're twice charge and let's assume that I'm doing your manager just to make my children and I have a small unit I would start by giving me myself the freedom of mapping out what exists I think there's great wisdom in walking their footsteps so whether I provide a service which is my example of commercials or my name is cool and so on what does it look like from the user and beneficiary perspective and let's map it up so that I see in fine detail whether they're really going I would walk in their shoes I would sit in their chair I would go through the process and I would be horrified and then I would do it for what does it look like for the people around them sometimes it's a family sometimes they appear and then I will be amazed at what we've created and the impossibility of it all and once I've done that then I would have reason to be humble and I would say I don't think I could do worse by working with them to co-create a better solution and to co-produce with them about results than this and you know what I know I am do it at a lower cost and when it was today and I don't think any country is rich enough right now or has ever been to do with citizens and other actors are best positioned to do themself so I would start there by giving me permission to not take anything for granted and I think that would be the starting point of it was not so long ago at the first thing I always did when I go somewhere this gives me all my knowledge I want to know what is the extent of the authority I have and if it's not there it doesn't exist I will start different okay so that's one about mapping out or simulating the resilience of analysis I'm not aware that there is such a thing the closest I found was New Zealand who has done some work many years ago for a long period of time on building community resilience I would not call that modeling nor simulation there's a fantastic conference coming up that Cisco is organizing an Oslo conference seminar on governance their focus is going to be a resilience so I may discover more but my prediction is that it's central to this my guess is that resilience should be and may become the center of public sector reforms going forward because it transforms so many things and you know one is that we're not talking tonight about the to be above the floor well when you start playing with co-creation it builds resilience co-production and builds machines working at score privilege platform and builds resilience everything that engaged individuals families and communities contribute to resilience and remember when I said I am amazed to find that the more you do of that which you think is demanding and difficult for people the more you have the better manner you get for life satisfaction and wellness well do you prefer to be okay now the gentleman about participation and people don't want to do these things I'm with them I'm with them we have to be decoding in or unpacking citizens participation consultation engagement I'm not talking about that I'd never use that word I don't think it talked about shared responsibility for public results I talked about co-creation co-production now I think we've made significant mistakes in the way we've approached citizen engagement we've assumed almost a song that private private life of citizen has no value but there is nothing greater they can do in life than to attempt on all meetings to be consulted on the last paper produced by a unit somewhere so I think there's confusion about the value of citizens contribution to society and the value of their participation being consulted fun on the idle Aristides of somebody I think they want elector of shows to do their job and they want their agencies to be able to achieve results and to do things on their own we're talking about something different I think we've w use of the language of consultation and consultation and citizen engagement I think there's a myth and people want to be consulted and everything and the people want to know that their voice would be heard if they wanted to be heard on question of interest to them and I think modern technology is giving us the means to give them these arrives and this capacity to be heard on matters of interest to them I don't think they want government to second-guess what matters of interest to them I don't think they want government to second-guess on what matter you would like to play a more or less active role so co-creation and co-production is quite different it's not about consulting me it's not about invite me to another yet again tunnel meeting it is what is the space within which I'm a man we're very and recognize for it and you gave me the instrument so that I can create so that I can produce so it's a different it's a different thing and that's why connectivity is so central to this to this whole design and therefore within it and therefore is again so I'm not assuming if this is what were says I agree with them like not assuming that participation is always better I'm not assuming that people are all dreaming every night to be participating more consulted more but I do believe that people want to be heard on matters of their choice they want to be actors they want to be recognized for their contribution because it is huge it is you the issues that matter to people exceed the capacity of government on their home we have 30 years of before in a government centric focus this is forcing us to have a governance and societal centric force gives you a different picture and goes back to my first metric now I have invited professor sue Richards to just give us some reflections because she has participated in all the roundtables we only have about a minute so suggestive if you can't believe me yes just some quick reflection us please finish absolutely it's giving me all of five minutes to notice of this so you know I would have loved to have done a long speech to express my thanks to Jocelyn for two years of fascinating work and but I think what you've experienced tonight is what attracted me in the first place to this work and that is one of the world's great reflective practitioners of Public Administration so part of what you've seen is the depth of experience and learning from that experience that lies behind this framework and thoughts that have emerged from now quite wide-ranging global career as as a as a consultant teacher on this on this framework for me the opportunity of spending time with people from five other countries on this territory but seeing how different they were was an absolutely fascinating one and it threw into relief the strengths and weaknesses of the UK system somebody earlier asked about how optimistic Jocelyn was about I would be more optimistic if I thought the more reflective practitioners like jostling around system what I see actually local government question from earlier I used to work in the Institute for local government study said a whole set of people whether political leaders or officials officers able to work across that territory but looking at Central prisoned in a way on the left-hand side not in many cases able to break through because they don't have the same immediate connections with citizens aren't open enough think for the six countries there are six pathways out of this but the the quality of the elucidation of the issues and the comparisons that jocelyn can make across those six and others I think officers enlightenment the opportunity that's probably more than a minute and I could go on stop about Windows actually thank you so much again docked and bring the to a close and with a couple of announcements first of all if the technology works then there will be a podcast of the elective this evening so those of you who though in of those of your colleagues may not have been here today and wish to see it or if you want to see it again you'll be able to do so I said providing that the technology does work secondly I'd like to thank all of you thank you for coming thank you for your questions and please join us for a glass of wine and a few nibbles it will be in the senior common room that's on the fifth floor of the old building there will be plenty of people who can show you where to come there are books outside that you buy and Jocelyn will be more than happy to sign them for you at the Senior Corps drug that's an additional incentive for you to come and join us for a glass of wine I would also like very much to thank Cisco because they are hosting they are sponsoring the reception so if Cisco thank you very much indeed I know we have some representatives from the zatia here and of course I have to now think just me because I think apart from bringing all these government's together of in fact encouraging them to think beyond their usual ways of thinking and then writing it all for the benefit of the rest of us I think it has been an amazing task and this is the beginning of the next phase and so please join me to send Jocelyn

Channel: LSE

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Keywords: LSE, London, School, of, Economics, and, Political, Science, London School of Economics, University, College, Public, Lecture, Event, Seminar, Talk, Speech, Jocelyne, Bourgon, Jocelyne Bourgon, New, Synthesis, Administration, serving, in, the, 21st, century, twenty, first, sector, reform, reforms, government, policy, policies, governance, secretary, to, Cabinet, Canada, politics

Id: H3A669FX-bU

Length: 95min 25sec (5725 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 08 2011