A Naga Thinker Explains Naga Peoplehood: Every Naga Must Watch | Dr. Visier Sanyü

hello everyone welcome to the LL show today I'm presenting one special guest again and he is Dr viser s and he's from Kona Village however he has lived his life uh teaching and working out of India so he has spent most of his life in Australia and he is very Naga however he has that Australian trade so I'm I'm very curious to understand and learn more about life and culture you know I have known you for quite a long time and know you as someone who is very deep in what you think and I you know that makes me really curious um how did you start your life you were you said you were from Kon Village that's right and and I as someone whom I know you know I know you more as you know the the from the Australian angle side so how did that start I mean before we jump into where how why you were there in Australia for I want to know how did you start your life as a small boy in the village well um my childhood was uh very sad very exciting and dramatic MH why do you say so well when I was about six I think um I I joined morong I I performed the secr I was we were animist so I was doing the head hunting d uals becoming a man and performed the pussa literally purification of the body and then I went to school for maybe a month or two and then our village was burned by the army so we left the village uh and lived in a jungle for 3 years and uh that experience in a jungle uh shaped the whole philosophy the whole outlook of my life so everything I do and everything I think goes back to the experience okay as a little boy living in a jungle and so it's a long story so everybody knows my age group they all went to Jungle they starve in the jungle and hunting um fishing in streams M okay so that's a long story right I know I know I mean if you don't mind how old are you at this currently my age keep changing recently I found a Dar of my my brother and uh I was he said I was born in 1949 so that'll make me 74 wow but uh I because we were in the jungle no record So I entered my birthday as 1953 which was about 4 years younger young than my real age because by the time I went to school I was only already nine when we came back from the jungle okay and that was uh your school was in somewhere school yes in Kona right first I went to Kona then I came to kohima to the B school this English school yeah oh I see wow I mean school was already there then you know that the school has started in 59 I think or something like that oh interesting now uh since you did your schooling here in Goa yeah and from then on um how what did you do like I want to know U what did you do later on that you found yourself a way to go abroad and have that life you know for your studies and your work yeah be uh before I went abroad I had few uh interesting experience I went to sinic school then I went to a Catholic school okay I finished my metric in shilong but I went to school signing School in banur so that opens a new chapter okay okay um when when I was finishing my school um I saw a show uh by the initiatives of change which in those days they call it MRA call anything to declare and instantly I it challenges me because it talks about peace and Reconciliation and about a new world and that kind of thing you see so I got to know them and through the introduction to that group it broaden my worldview and I started traveling at a very young age okay okay in fact as soon as I finished my college I join join a show called song of Asia and we travel to Southeast Asia we travel all over Europe I cross the Arctic Circle and I have a certificate to say that I am the first nag to cross the Arctic Circle wow wow and that was in the ' 80s or 70s 75 75 yeah before you were born I mean that was before I was born I mean you had really circled around the world before I was born so it's great and it's it's an honor to be in your presence um but what really makes me wonder is at those in those times you know where people hardly get education what prompted you and what facilitated you to have that exposure you see in pues war and you said you were just traveling across around the world I mean people cannot even imagine coming to Goa those days yes that's what I can imagine what what facilitated you to venture you know like most kids um the world fascinated me and uh I was thirsted for knowledge I want to know more and stories I hear excites me and um I get deep into stories so I was naturally wanting to go overseas to explore the world but as you know in those days the nagas don't get passport easily so uh we had to go through so many process in order to get a three-month passport okay and then extend every year and a temporary passport and eventually during the emergency it was cancelled so I came back from from London yeah M okay so you did your schooling in India yes yes and then from your University yes I went to Neu and I did my masters and PhD MH and immediately I got a job in the Kima College okay and when nagaland University came I became the inaugural head of Department of history and archaeology so we we started the university because we joined Neu before Nan University came into being so we were you might say pioneers of Nan University Yes W that's wonderful okay so you were that's teaching is one of your professions now that's right and and I mean is it will I be right to say you are now retired from teaching yes okay so now and now let's say you thought in kohima and after that like where was your life heading to yes when I was in um nagaland university uh we we went through a very difficult period of petrid MH and um every day someone was killed yeah and nagaland University got into the controversy and I was the president of the University Teachers Association okay so I used to get threatening phone calls soal from underground so life was unpleasant in the '90s so I decided to take a year leave in 1996 to go to Australia as an visiting academic and then one year turned out to be 20 years 20 years before that I've been to Australia when I was a student but um all together I must have spent about 22 years in Australia is the longest place I've stayed in I mean is it's the one place I have stayed longest I've always that moving around and bit of a paretic but um Australia was home for many years yes now before we jump into that Australian um experience I also want to know um I mean were your parents educated no my mother was uh totally illiterate uh my my mother never wore shoes uh she never saw a train she never went to dimapur but but when we were in the jungle she saw an airplane the the air Indian Air Force flying across the mountain so that was and she didn't travel much further than the Zang country where when we were in the underground so she was a village woman yes okay okay now I mean looking at you the way you think the way you have really um contacted with the outside world and the way you speak I mean it's it's not a typical Naga that we see every day for a 70 plus years old man you know that really makes me look back about your history and your background but you seem to be like any any ordinary Naga who has lived that same experience of you know in the midst of conflict in the I mean under the care of a parents uneducated or illiterate parents but you seem to have picked up very well I mean I cannot imagine having to go through that very difficult moment and having to have that um education at the same time and having to grow this far having to have come this far yeah it's difficult to explain uh but sometime life is a mystery M and sometime is fate so when I was in sinning school I got very interested in geography and history okay so I used to look at the map and and we had an English teacher and he used to teach out about South America and Australia said oh one day I'm going to South America I'm going to Australia so I told my teacher said I want to go to Australia that was 14 hours 50 and he gave me a list of uh P parts to ride so I used to write to girls in Australia for about five six years Exchange letters and and thinking that one day I'll go to Australia one day I'll go to America and that kind of thing so a lot of I had a lot of imagination and uh constantly exploring and uh and also fascinated by history and uh why that happened you know oh my God you know long long time ago this thing happened just kind of thing so I was a curious child and then you landed in Australia now you join as an you know academic there what did you experience I mean in terms of you know anaga living in Australia how how what I mean when they when they see you how what did they what what do they really what kind of impression do you think they get like as a foreigner well um you can speak close to the mic uh yeah well um I had uh I work I had four jobs I worked in two universities in Australia first I went in as a visiting academic yeah uh for a contract of one year and uh when they extended my contract I decided to give up and go for study so they were very surprised and very annoyed the head of the department because you don't give up a university job so I went to study theology oh really I that in in the um uh univ uh uh Melbourne University in those days I think they call it not University of divinity but it was part of Melbourne University and I went to study theology not because I want to become a pastor nor a theologian but I was very curious about theology okay and I want I want to decode the Mystic of theology because um this theology Come and Talk big things that I cannot understand and uh Heaven and Hell or something it's totally perplexing and so I said look the best thing is to learn yourself yeah so I enroll in the uh for a bachelor of theology which is a 4-year course okay but um I took seven years because I was working part-time so um that really expanded my thinking into another world very different from history and geography and anthropology which are my subjects I mean which are my interest so I read quite a bit of anthropology out of Interest geography because I want to see the world yeah but history was my subject yeah okay so uh having studied theology I got a job with the National Council of churches as the refugee officer for the National Council of churches then again another opportunity came for the University so I joined another university monach university in the monach Asia study which means you can study any part of Asia so South Asia is a very specialized version so I was teaching there also doing research for some time and then my last job was with World Vision okay so I ended up with World Vision and then from there I left the job to come back here but coming back to your question about how did you take how how do you feel um number one the world has never heard of nagan outside outside nland and nag areas they have never heard of an average man doesn't have never heard of nagas so the Curious Thing is they'll say where are you from and I normally say I'm from nland and then they what where and that's how the conversation start but this I learned this one in um when I was traveling in Europe when I was a young man young younger man these who ask that question and if I say I'm from India but they'll say immediately but you don't look like Indian M what you're not Indian I have an Indian friend he doesn't look like you so to confuse to erase a confusion to make it simpler I just say nagaland and then I started telling the story of the nagas that's how my interest in Naga history started okay so I was telling them and they would listen I I stayed with families when I was traveling so Germany France Sweden Denmark Norway England language I was staying families normal families okay so sometime the conversation was continue till morning because they're so curious and they in those days no internet no Google so they'll go then open the encyclopedia because everyone has a one and I said oh my God yes there's a place called nagan oh and nagas and had Hunters yeah okay so that's how the Curiosity started and I developed a skill of telling Naga story and then I read then I would write to my brother and ask questions what is that what happened in that period you know blah blah blah so by the time I went to do my PhD in NIU I was very well versed okay so my professor used to say my guide my supervisor you're the first Naga who knows all about Naga history and in fact he was learning about Naga history from me I'm learning so much about nagas okay anyway yeah now you talk a lot about the the history of the nagas and Naga as nagas as a be as people so I mean as as a youngster I'm myself lack a lot of knowledge about nagas although we know that we have a history of you know confrontation with the government of India and you know a lot of military conflict that's all most of the youngsters know but the the the Genesis of nagas like when we say nagas who are the nagas for you I mean as someone who is who has been you know studying about this well the simple questions is you're aaga because your parents are nagas because your father and mothers are nagas okay that's the the simple question um strictly speaking Naga is an imagined Community now when we say that many people misunderstand okay that oh no no we not imagine blah blah but academically what they saying is people like um Germany or for USA there's nothing common in them but they have imagined to be American so they are American they have thought it out okay so for India is a typical um example of an imagin Community okay a Bengali from Bangladesh and Bengali from U West Bengal if they meet in Melbourne there are no more Indians in Bangladesh they're bengalis okay a Pakistani uh from Punjab and Pakistani from India pakist from yeah yeah yeah Punjabi from Pakistan and Punjabi from India they become brothers they completely forget their pakistanis and Indians because Pakistani is a new thing there was no Pakistani before 1947 so they have imagined that they are Indians this punjabis bengalis therefore a miso who is really a chin speaking the same language as chin from Burma they they consider themselves as Indian and they go to Indian army they fight for India they join the Indian service and very proud to be Indians but they have nothing common with tamils or absolutely tus so they have imagine to be Indians due to the historical process okay and a historical accident and history so nagas are a bit like that so were nagas all the time no doubt about that the nagas were mentioned by the Greek geographer call me the 4th Century ad I think and I'm forgetting the dates anyway thousands of years ago he they said this area is Nagal loo the the the realm of the naked The Land of the naked and pointed where the nagas are now so Nago there the mythical nagar was always in the Indian ancient books in in the text that nagar Raja there were Naga kingdoms sometime they said nagas or half snake half human Divine and so forth so those are mythical nagas but the real Naga Flesh and Blood we are somebody call us nagas so became nagas now my theory is that when the British when the Indian came up and saw these strange looking people the most of thought that W this must be the nagas we have heard about it but we never met them but the British make as nagas so before the British came dami mous and pum we never heard of kyak or or home didn't exist our world was only my little bit of angami that was our world but the British came and said you are Naga and these are also nagas and these are also nagas so we became nagas and that is nothing wrong a peoplehood formation of a peoplehood formation of a nation is always a process like that yeah there were no German before before yeah in history there were no Italians there were so many people and then one day somebody came say we we will all be German okay we are German yeah so now you say that it's more of an imagined Community now that imagined itself is very subjective at this moment but do you think is there any objectivity in that or is there any foundational fact that okay this group are called nagas because there is something about the commonness about these people let's say yes yes of course of course the foundation is very strong although is imagined the foundation real Community the community is one might say an imagin community in a sense that I was explaining about American and Indians but the people Naga people has a very very strong history very very uh uh strong Foundation very evidence is very clear so we came from obviously from um Yan China from Mongolia from whatever it is migrated down south um people there people who speak uh very close to angami in Yan if you go there count the number in angami is the say for nine and for me is fire water is the C is wood so very similar languages speak so we came from there but as a process of forming a people or forming a nationhood we have done better than most people we have a very strong Foundation okay okay so that means the the present existing boundaries is just a madeup yeah that is more or less exactly that is an imaginary line now that's the more imaginary line this is more an imaginary line because somebody make a line it became a boundary I mean yeah that that makes sense I think you know in this uh 20 21st century world we National I mean n as nationalism comes within the boundary rather than the community now you when you look at it since if you if you acquire Australian citizenship you become an Australian more than Indian so I think but some people yearn for having that common nationalism as a people community together rather than the boundary yes yes that is absolutely that's why the phrase nagas Without Borders make much sense it does a lot because whether you're in Burma or or in India at the moment you're still Naga and that ethnicity and that a cultural and DNA bound is much stronger than a boundary imaginary boundary line you know totally that is that is absolutely true totally but um in a few years time in our own lifetime in your lifetime all this will become irrelevant because according to Harari even the sapiens the human being will no no longer exist m it'll be run by AI which will be more like God than human so inami there's a song called is more like Gods than human so this um this internet Revolution the Scientific Revolution which is going so fast is going to be in a few years time sovereignty will have no meanings M you can be anywhere and do anything you can be anybody and anywhere you can book your ticket to Mar whether you're in America or anaga and very soon you'll be they'll be selling Alon mask will be selling his tickets so we are heading for a very different world so when we talk of this um uh nationalism and factionalism and this group and that group it'll become IR less important yeah less important yes now the idea of Naga peoplehood is kind of like I mean that really gives me an Insight that it's not just about imagination although people who are formed by through imagination and it remains an imagination in many cases however there is also a historical fact about being a Naga absolutely but what is your reaction to the par parist who say that oh there's you know there is this part of the Naga is more purer than the this side of the there are narratives like that yeah absolutely yes I understand I'm sure I mean but when you look at from an anthropological point of view yeah yeah yeah that becomes like a Layman's argument which holds no water that is a totally uneducated illiterate uh view of uh human history or of or of of history or or or or of society um there are a few things that really Mark the formation of Naga present nagas so those things form the reality of the history and the formation of a people so the first one would be the invasion of the aoms Suk Kapa came through the Naga Hills and then the aom mentions mentioned that there were nagas the nagas resisted so we didn't have region records but we learned from Banji from the British uh from the homes so that was um what it was uh 12 26 whatever uh 13th century then the coming of the British in the 1832 when they walked into Naga Hills that changed everything that changed everything because we were introduced to a wider world that we were not aware of so we became part of the humanity or human society as a result of the invasion of the British so that was very important as a result of that the missionaries came they brought education so the development of the society was taking a very fast space space uh B and um after that before then we became of course part of most of us part became part of the British Empire but then before the British left that's a few educated people were able to articulate our history through the assignment commission memorandum so that leaves a very historical Mark and then you know the rest is of course pite and Declaration of Independence and so forth but that's those are the foundation of a formation of peoplehood now these people who are sort of let me put it very directly those people um those are in nagan called nagan State and thinking there are some whatat kind of Brahmin n Naga brahin are just a not case they absolutely don't understand the history of the nagas they have no anthropological or cultural understanding of the history so because of the the the trouble the war um of course nagan state has to be created it was created the controversy which I I don't want to go into it but it became a reality then the people who are uneducated and didn't know the history of the movement like Naga movement uh then developed a kind of a artificial superficial uh superity complex that oh those who are living outside nagan are not real nagas kind of kind of thing that that's what you referring to now that is um that happens everywhere I agree yeah and and there is always this conflict everywhere but because people are not educated because they have not learned the history and therefore they have not learned the future that's that's very interesting yeah you cannot imagine the future without knowing the history yeah exactly yes yeah so now as as a people I mean we all part of in the So-Cal Indian Nation Indian Nation um not politically however as a people in terms of the development of the Naga peoplehood where do you think are we heading to as a people like you say this I this this categorization of people as one community and the other community nagas misos may become less important in the future because of the revolution of internet and Ai and you know all these Technologies that's coming towards us where are we heading to yeah this is the uh dichotomy or this is the the the the perplex perplexing situation number one is people are more and more becoming of their ethnic background okay they want to preserve and promote their ethnicity all over the world on one hand Scottish Irish they want to be you know and and nagas and misos and punjabis tamils they want to ass certain their position as an ethnic group so that is growing everywhere yeah on the other hand nationalism is becoming meaningless mhm and it will become less important okay irrelevant okay because of the because of this fast changing uh Ai and algorithm and whatnot so we are living in a world that 50 years ago people could not imagine 50 years ago I was in um Holland I think for nearly 50 years ago or 45 years ago in Philip company and they were telling us that one day you can see your friends from your phone I said my God how can that be you know and they said you can carry your phone so how the the cable will be very long you know that kind of thing but they were already researching what the Leone will become the Philip company okay so and it became like that and sometimes predictions are wrong like in 1940s the scientists said by 2000 that is 60 years from 1940 people will be traveling to Mars and stars it never happened but they have absolutely no idea about internet they didn't imagine that internet would come but look at this what the world I know it's a it's absolutely frightening because they are saying now that we will not need a doctor very soon because AI will tell you everything about your sickness it'll tell you what you eat where you sleep how long you sleep how you exercise it'll tell you what disease you have and your sickness even Facebook will be able to tell you your illness and then when you operate a robot will operate so then a doctor will become irrelevant anyway this is a very strange strange topic we're talking yeah but I think it's worth um it's it's quite intriguing when you look at what's happening around us yeah so in that sense nagas become a part of that absolutely so we be become part of the humanity and we be we become part of the human problems so anything that is happening is going to affect us the war in Israel the war in Ukraine is going to affect us because we have suddenly become a global family without us knowing it we're not aware but it is true true okay so now as a person who has experienced you know a lot of I mean culture and a lot of people different people from different nationalities and who has worked in different you know settings now as a 70 plus years old man now what in what do you look forward to in your life and what is the thing that you dream about difficult questions um one desire one dream is that nagas will become United across borders across borders and that we will be able to live as a family or as a nation or as a people in one yeah geographical boundary that's a very big dream even if that is difficult and it is going to be difficult because normally changing of boundary takes hell of time a time yeah normally it's about war is about constitutional change and it's not easy so even if the boundary is stays it is possible that you can develop a peoplehood with the boundaries still there you see and that is more happening it is more and more becoming like that I mean many many nagas are going to live overseas they not going to be in Burma or or in India they're not going to be in Manipur or in nland but they'll still be nagas and they'll form a community of nagas they're doing in Australia and America they're very small but they are and this is what exactly uh the chin have done exactly the Chinese have done the the Vietnamese have done done and they're all over the world but they're Vietnamese they're Chinese and India is Indians are doing it they're all over the world now true true so if I have to rephrase that it's more of like an emotional integration of people having the same Roots like say as a Naga yeah foundationally or the foundation is uh an emotional thing but then this emotional thing in develop into a spiritual thing M it goes deeper so then you become um more Naga just not just emotionally or culturally but there's something deeper which I I can't put in two words yeah every good example out there the Jews so everybody wants to quote them and give examples so yeah okay so um let's say a final or concluding questions would be um when you observe the youngsters the nagas as youngsters as and now you as an elder what is your impression and you know what are the things you would like to address or do you see any predicaments among the Naga youngsters youngsters as in like the younger generation yeah they always two ways of looking at it yeah one is the young Generations are much more educated than ours they're much more equipped they go to much better schools they have much better facilities therefore their minds are very developed on one hand the other hand is they are not committed as Our Generations or they're not so much aware of who they are they are totally um what is the right word they have not been educated in their own history so they're totally unaware of who they are yeah and how they became like this and where they are going so sometime it's very shocking because even the simplest thing uh they do not know MH so I was traveling in a TXI with a PhD student going to shalong and um she had absolutely no idea who is who every Naga I mention she have not heard of it so I said have you ever heard of a man called piso and she smil yes so the only historical figure among the nagas is he heard about she heard about piso So to that extent and uh totally unaware of the history so that are many many people like that so that'll be a sort of a Lost Generation now when when the youngsters are not educated enough on our roots on where we come from and what kind of people we are and I mean how we become as a people I mean what are the con as a historian what are the consequences when people people don't know enough about their roots and then who the people who that they are like the likely consequences well many people have disappeared M many tribes or nations have merged with the other bigger group so they they no longer exist or they don't longer call themselves with that group so there is a possibilities that if this Naga family um continue to fight and dismantle yeah and some of them will call themselves arunachal and some of them will call themselves something else and some of them will call okay we are burmes we speak burmes we speak so forth so then uh possibility of Disappearing is also there but most unlikely because it is a very um it's fairly a big group when you talk about um an indigenous group or an ethnic group or a a small nation uh four Millions is a a lot of people I mean it's not 1 billion but it's it's hard to disappear yeah it's it's half the size of Germany let's say well I mean any other country in Europe you will hard you you will find lot of countries with four billion 4 million populations small countries like yeah yeah yeah so it's it's it's quite a fairly good amount of people like you say I mean there are countries with half a million people and few La Solomon Islands and Nei and and yeah eore and all these peoplea now that you're back to nland you you are you you have come back here for good now yeah yeah yeah yeah so now now what are you interested in like what is your plan here well I started a garden called healing Garden mhm and I thought about it before I came okay because when I was thinking of coming back the question was what will I do I mean I'll be like rib vanwinkle after 20 years coming back to nand so for about 3 years I thought about it and then I read something uh addressing to the agents and said if you are thinking of going back home to your native country you must be clear with three things you must be able to admit your mistake and able to forgive and have a clear goal as why you're going back the other two are irrelevant I mean we can forgive what is there but to have a Clear Vision a clear goal as what to do is difficult so if after two years I said well I have a Lear in mipa I'll start Garden I'll call it healing garden and I'll give a safe space for people to come together to meet and enjoy nature and it'll sort of protect uh the nature and connects with the natural world so those are the philosophy I started and now 8 years since I came back home I think and it has become bigger than bangur in other words it's much more than I expected every week people come every month teachers church group students they come for workshop and for training and they enjoy it and basically there's nothing flowers a tree house and jungle but there's something that uh speaks to our soul in nature the trees and the flowers and the forest touches our souls so that is that is what I came for and that is my vision is to develop this Garden into a unique Garden that people can really enjoy so I read something when I was coming back someone said if you have a garden and a a library you have everything you need so I have everything I need now and U my dream or my vision is to develop this Garden into a real Garden okay yeah it is beginning I mean I have lots of fruit trees and lots of flowers and I keep some animals but much much can be done much can be improved I look forward to visiting your current you must welcome you must come and see oh my God yeah wonderful I really appreciate for such initiatives and thinking differently from I mean unconventional dreams and thoughts that you have visions that you have for our people for the nas as well as for human beings in general so I really appreciate that you come here and share your thoughts I may add yeah all the Asians are for that matter Italian Greeks and all these people who come to Australia it's like a winning lottery ticket they they never go back they don't want to go back because their country is very different from Australia and they're used to and they get used to Australia the facilities the space beaches and so forth so when I said I'm thinking of going back my friend thought my friends thought I was crazy and are you sure you're not joking you know I said I'm I'm certain I don't want to get old here I want to go back you know and that's our and a very good example was my friend burmes friend Mong lived in Australia for 40 years W and then he said I want to go back to Burma and help my people so he went to rangun and he lasted one year he came back he said oh I can't leave there anymore it's too dirty it's too corrupt oh no no no I can't I can't leave there anymore so he came back so my fear was go come here and I'll go back then it'll be too much you see so I was determined that if I come I have to stay m i mean I still go back to Australia Australia is home you sense yeah and um I I love Australia and I was there for four months last year my son and daughters are there daughter are there so I love Australia but um I have made this my home wow thank you so much it's quite insightful and enriching and you have opened up a space more space for us to give a thought thank you thank you so much it's uh nice to talk to you it's nice talking to you it's it's much better than I know I I I expected it'll be great but it's even much better than I expected oh thank you so we can have another round of conversation now on your experience here in nland later in in the next part yes yes next year maybe yes yes yes there are lots to talk about it lots about uh to discuss but in a short time like this uh 30 minutes 14 minutes we can't do much but I appreciate what you're doing thank you I think people enjoy your talk thank you so much you should become the next karar that's a big compliment thank you so much I'll I'll aspire to become one like that thank you so much thank you very much we'll talk again thank you thank you thank you so much

Channel: The Lungleng Show

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Id: 9AyxKCs4yEM

Length: 48min 15sec (2895 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 06 2024