A Master Class in Playing Jazz with Saxophonist Benny Golson: Benny Golson Discusses His Career

I wanted to start this evening by talking to you a little bit about where you came from Philadelphia and some of the musicians who you played with in that milieu at that time and also who was your kind of early group of influences who did you really start listening to what made you want to be a jazz musician you know what do you remember hearing very early on well some of the people were the first party but some of the people that I played with we were all aspiring musicians then none of us were professionals then of course as I said before Jimi Heath was there Percy he this brother just gotten out of the was the Army Air Force then he was a pilot in Tuskegee and he began to base I think he was in his late 20s when he got started but he joined us his brother Toodee came later but Philly Joe was there it was just a little older than the rest of us and of course John Coltrane was there and Ray Bryant and the trumpet player named Johnny colds and various others I can't think of all open right now but we were all there and we were aspiring jazz musicians you know and the thing that got me started when I started I didn't begin as a saxophone player at 9 years old I started taking piano lessons and I was serious about becoming a concert pianist that was really my goal yes yes and I was really serious about it and my teacher used to send me out after I got a little repertoire together and I would play for the ladies on the afternoon teas and little fashion shows and things like that but then when I reached 14 I went to the Aero theater downtown Philadelphia to hear a little Hampton and he had a saxophone player named Annette Cobb and they went into a song called flying home and our net stepped out of the saxophone section onto the stage to the microphone and swooped into that memorable solo on flying home and the piano went up in smoke it was it was an epiphany for me yeah and of course I went home and I told my mother about it and she was brokenhearted because she wanted me to play the piano and to play the organ later at the Baptist Church and all of that but I different things in mine and I promised that I would continue to take the piano lessons if I could play the saxophone and I did both for a couple of years and then she could see the saxophone was really when she said let it go and that's how I got started and then I started listening you asked me who did I listen to I listened to everybody I was the eclectic I had nothing to draw up on myself so I had to draw power what other people were doing so I listened to saxophone players trumpet players piano players guitar player everybody to see how they improvise what they were thinking about how they arrived at certain things this was all new to me you know at that time now that year that you heard him was that 1943-44 I have to count back now give me a minute that was about mid 40s mid forties yeah 45 something so at that time when you were listening to musicians were you particularly impressed by other saxophonist besides our net Cobb other tempo yes Coleman Hawkins came into the picture then Ben Webster I'd like that full sounds and later lucky Thompson yeah and much later Dexter Gordon yes you know these were my heroes I was aspiring to try to be like them I used to copy their solos go to the jam sessions and don't play my thoughts play their thoughts yeah but that it developed you know later it was a good learning tool I'm curious to ask you the piano study do you think that that had any effect on your later arranging and composing activities do you think it gave you a grounding sort of in harmony that you might not have had otherwise or absolutely yes I mean I can still play the piano in college I even did a few gigs on piano but I was a bad piano player not very good saxophone was my thing yes it did having a knowledge of the keyboard and being able to read what you see in the keyboard is really the entire orchestra even more it goes higher and lower than you know so everything was right there for you and it was easy for me to assimilate the things I was hearing in my mind to the keyboard and liking it to what the orchestra was doing so yeah if anybody I mean you don't have to us you know it's not accent but if you can learn some piano before you could start on whatever instrument you want to play it gives you a broader view of what's going on and overall of you can you remember you mentioned during your musical set hearing Charlie Parker for the first time and how that kind of turned your conception around and what might be possible and improvising can you talk about that a little bit and what was different about burden yeah said now that during that time Don Byas was my hero I had several heroes don't fit but Charlie Parker was so different that I was taken aback and when I heard him John Coltrane and I were together and where did you hear him do you remember the Kadim ear music on local street and broad in philadelphia downtown and the afternoon and I remember in the afternoon because when it was over Sharon and I was getting or getting autographs from Dizzy Gillespie and I think slams - it was the bass player they hadn't gotten a hip bass player yet because he was still slapping the strings and I think Al Haig was the piano player I don't remember the drummer so after it was over we were back there like kids do can I have your autograph connected and we call Charlie Parker mr. Parker because we were kids I said charms - Parker's going even a stage door because he had a gig at the downbeat Club see with the concert was in the afternoon and then ended around 7:00 and he had to play at the club at 9:00 so I was going over there and the rhythm section waiting for him was fully Joe Jones red Garland and a bass player named what was the papers man I can't remember the bass player but they were waiting for him he was going to play with them so we rushed out we hadn't gotten his autograph either so we rushed out and we asked could we walk with him we so John was on the left and I was on the right and he was playing so much I figured if I could get some insight to what he was playing that maybe John and I would be able to play like because we couldn't be like that and so I began before that chance asked him can I carry a homage to Parker and so he let him carry the and I was thinking all the way why don't why don't I see some of my friends that know me and see me walking down the street with Charlie Parker it's nobody so how we were walking to the club was only about four blocks away I was asking dumb stuff like thinking I was gonna getting it inside of what he was doing and go home and do it what kind of saxophone do you play and he told me okay and a cat like that what kind of mouthpiece do you use and they told me the mouth even mr. Parker what kind of reeds do you use and he told me what strength do you use one two three four and they told me that and I think okay I got it all together so we got to the club of course we were too young to go up there and so John gave him the horn and he went up I was on the second floor and they started soon after and we stayed there they played that they played from 9:00 till 2:00 in those days you know and we stayed outside because we could hear everything they were doing from we stayed from 9:00 till 2:00 and when they finish John and I were just as tired as they were it was incredible and so this was in South Philadelphia and we both lived in North Philadelphia you never had any money so we had to walk home but on the way home we would dream in what if do you think what was that maybe we can get you know what if maybe can I is it possible so John I used to talk every day and we didn't talk for about two weeks because we both gotten the same information about the horn and the mouthpiece in the reeds and everything and finally he called after about two weeks and he said Benny did you tried any that stuff that mr. park was telling us I said yeah he said did anything happened I said no he said me either same old stuff was coming out along the Reed the mouthpiece it wasn't any of that did you I mean after that did you start sitting down with the recordings and trying to break it down and copy souls yes John I used to be together every day and you know when you when we bought those 78 records I remember well it's 37 cents when we bought them they were in China this year Lachlan and we played those records boy until they turn gray and dull you know and during those times the tonearm you had to put the needles and unscrew the screws with needle ins with that and you could get about ten plays and then after that got a little distorted let me tell you something funny and during that time the science class the teacher brought in a tuning fork and she struck it she gave each one of those twenty-four she struck it she says now hold it put it to your head and when I did the sound was in my head I said wow that's fantastic then I struck it when I put it in my teeth and I went through my whole head said Wow and I got home when I said mmm then I take that phonograph needle and put it to the tonearm what would happen if I put it in my teeth and I put it in my teeth and turn it on and slowly put my head down to the record instant stereo the band was in my head I'm serious yeah I mean that sound was right in my head like that tuning fork don't try this at home my advice and I told John and he started trying it and then other musicians well among the amateurs and we could always tell who had been doing it because they had a smudge on the nose from the turn tape let me ask you just before we get off this is there is there a way that you could characterize for us exactly what the change was that had happened there when you heard I mean musically speaking what bird represented in the music as a turning point oh yeah it was it was the concept mm-hmm the concept and we didn't understand the concept and what we were trying to play was traditional music you know how can I put it we were engrossed in that but I mean trying to go from we didn't understand the other stuff yet and we heard that new stuff who we admit stream with us uncertainty not sure so and we were amateurs and so we worked hard trying to go forward and we were listening to everything you know and finally we begin to get on to it of course and John really got onto it how did you begin playing professionally what were your early gigs I guess after you got out of Howard what what were your how did you really break in when did you know you were a professional musician as opposed to just an amateur aside from getting paid for it oh it started before before I went to college and in fact John and I were in the same band that was called Jimmie Johnson and his ambassadors and it was a local band Philadelphia big band 15 pieces and during that time strangely enough there were many big bands in Philadelphia and about for the guys all had the same name Jimmy Jimmy Johnson Jimmy Adams Jimmy shorter Jimmy singly I mean it was strange but we were with Jimmy Johnson and his ambassadors and we should work on the weekend which was good for me because I was still in school high school Friday and Saturday night or Saturday or Friday and we thought we were moving ahead quite well because now we were playing and the band playing music and we had to change the place solo every now and then not one or two or three or four courses four bars here maybe eight bars here never old course you know we've all playing stock Arrangements you know and we we thought we were doing pretty good because now we weren't playing in front of the record player we were playing on a stage and going up to the microphone like the big boys you know and we were feeling pretty comfortable knowing that we were moving ahead until the bandleader sent his son by to tell me that the job that Friday night had been canceled when he told John and assumed he told everybody else and hmm we were heartbroken because we'd live for those games you know did didn't pay much money we didn't have a tuxedo being in one of the ambassadors we had to play in a tuxedo so we had to rent a tuxedo every time we played in the tuxedo cause for hours the job paid 8 so we went over 4,000 but it was the music we were concerned about not the money so anyway we were told that gig was canceled and I would be sitting down listen to the 70s like we always did and my mother happened to come down and she said why the long faces and we said all this the gig was canceled you know and we were really looking forward to it and she says well what time did he send his son by he sent him by it's about 6:30 here he came to my house and she said what time was the gig 8 o'clock she said nobody cancels a job an hour and a half before time to play she's out bet you they're playing without you and John and all of his naive they said oh no mrs. Colson they wouldn't do that she said it was me I'd go up there and see I looked at John looked at me he said let's go so it was only about six or seven blocks away so we walked up there to the American Legion Hall where the gig was canceled we got a half a block from the hall and we heard this band playing John said they're playing our music I said John every band and Philadelphia plays the same music we have to see who they are so when the door open the next paying customer went down we could hear the band loud yeah but we couldn't tell if it was Jimmy Johnson his ambassadors so the next time because you had to go down the steps and across the ballroom floor so the next time the door opened we fell on our stomachs and we could see somebody was in my chair if somebody was in Johnson we went back to my house while we were brokenhearted we went in he said you were right mr. Costa and we living room you know we sat down and put the record player on we stood in the middle for nothing I wanted to cry and I know John want to cry but couldn't cry in front of each other you know and my mother saw the pain we were having and she put her arms around both of us and squeeze doesn't said don't worry baby one day you'll be so good they won't be able to afford you know we didn't we didn't believe but years later we were up at the Newport Jazz Festival and somehow John and I happened to be in the same tent warming up and he was warming up on a soprano he had just recorded my favorite things and art farm and I just found the Jazz debt and we were warming up in noodling and I don't know said he took his horn out of his mouth and he's thought laughing laughing hilariously and I said what what he said remember what your mother told us you know the one day at least be so good they wouldn't be he said well those guys are still in Philadelphia and we did you after that happen did you kind of think okay now now I'll pull out a blade I'm gonna really don't go really practice harder or did you just get depressed for a while just out of curiosity yeah something like that can do one of two things it can make you give up and become hopeless or make you can make it go at it I guess it was doing them like a wild beast and we both won that beast let me ask you a little bit about moving into the 50s when you really kind of hit your stride professionally I want to ask you a little bit about when you began to compose and arrange I know that you have a you had a special place in your life for tadd Dameron a great composer and a writer I did yeah that was later on okay you played with his band yes in the early 50s yeah can you talk a little bit I think you were playing originally you said before with bull moose Jackson can you tell us how that that's where I met him that was a jump blues gig so yeah that's where I met he was the piano player with with boom you'll never believe what the drummer was go ahead and he played good rhythm and blues drum Philly Joe Jones so there was more than just a jump Lou's band then I guess did you have sort of jazz specialties oh yes and bull moose bull moose and tadd Dameron grew up together in Cleveland you see and that's how and tadd was at Liberty we say he wasn't working and he's almost eight or look you can make a few kids with me until you know you do what you want to do and he was there and the band in that time when he was at Liberty you see from his thing that he really does and what year is that about that with you at 51 yep 51 and then I was in his band at 53 as was Clifford Brown and some others yeah and one thing led to another and eventually we were all left moves in bill moves and he finally put together a band in 53 and stammering yeah and was going into a new club there called I was up at the Paradise for the whole summer say for the whole summer season from June till Labor Day on September and in that band was gigi gryce Cecil Payne Philly Joe Jimmy Merritt did I say Clifford Brown Johnny Cole's trumpet player and Tad it was a mine piece man it wasn't a very big bad and believe it or not we played mostly the show stuff the girls singing and tap dancer and but in between shows we got to play a couple of things you know but not much yeah and we weren't making much money and we work in seven days a week with a breakfast show on Saturday so we went away we usually get off at 2:00 we'd have a little break and then we play the breakfast show from about 3:00 to 6:00 and we were getting $100 a week did you did you get any specific advice or tutelage or anything on arranging from Ted oh yes yes this man shared everything he knew he had no secrets he shared everything anything I'd ask him he was quite copious even he'd bring it out I remember when I started he started listening to some of those things because I began to write for the band too and he would look at it here it said how did you arrive at this this is wrong that's not the right chord and things like that you know you know and that's how I learned and then he was writing for different people he was writing for Teddy's van and he was doing something for Duke Ellington and he let me copy it and as I copied the chart I'm looking at what he's doing and how what sounds yeah he let me do things like that and that was apprenticeship for me and then I got pretty good at it I got so good at it that when people would come in here the band he had certain of his arrangements that we played and they would play my arrangements and they would say to him Jake that was a great array just had to get on whatever and it was my arrangement and he came to me and said you know that's a drag you you write it and they come and thank me for writing and you wrote it but he was really very happy not he was proud but he was Fanning terrific now you join would you say your next major gig after that was with Dizzy Gillespie in there you played with Earl Bostick didn't you and John no no no physical s we came down the line okay the next gig was Lionel Hampton oh okay well Hamden I didn't stay there too long Quincy Jones was in the band and they came to see the show and they heard us play what we played between the show and they heard we did a jazz musicians and he went back and told ham and so ham wanted gigi gryce Clifford Brown and me to join the band but the owner of the club said no we had a contract he said no you can't do that you got stay at the Labor Day so I said well okay look let clifford and gigi go and I'll stay here and help the other guys the new guys coming in to really learn the show so he agreed to that so I joined him two weeks later after you know help the new guys yeah and but I didn't stay with him too long did you go to Europe with Hampton no I left before that and you know I said me and my principals the money was so weak and what happened they promised to pay me more than they had been used to paying and I said okay so I joined a band I met them I think in South Carolina and we played down in the south and then we got the Columbia South Carolina and amps wife who was like the business manager she came on the scene now the road manager had promised me this money and when she came and heard that she said no way and I quit she chopped that off now the band was getting $19.90 a and she said no deal now right after that they played there was a club next to Berlin I flew the bandbox and the week after that they went to Europe and me and my principles I quit and I got a letter from Quincy Oh Betty you should have come we're here with the band but we're doing record dates and Sweden and we yeah but later later and much later I played with HAMP again but it was with the small group was called a goal of men of jazz they were about seven of them yeah and I said oh you know he used to be hard to get him offstage this guy didn't know how to stop I mean when I was in the band for that short while and I told my wife oh this is years later down the man you know I know when this is gonna be an easy gig he was worse couldn't get this guy one we played one gig and everybody's reporter and everybody left the bandstand and he's playing by himself we had to go back um I want to jump forward a little bit because we don't have unlimited time I want to talk to you a little bit about your time go ahead what I did but I did move ahead okay after Lionel Hampton it was a tiny Grimes you remember them yeah was em for a short while and then wait let go then it was Earl Bostick greatest technician on the sax or I've ever heard in my life not the style but the technique the technique nobody could touch him credible and then I then I joined dizzy yes that was a man I got fired from and the reason I got fired is I got tired of playing that kind of music I wanted to play jazz and I should have just quit and it was all about him everything was him this melody the solo and sometimes we just played the chord on it at the tune are you talking about this robust oh okay and so I start doing silly things when we go down south he would take his guitar because he played a little guitar and he played down down oh so during the intermission I would tighten some of the strings and I'd do some some of the strings and he'd come back and he had him too lucky just it was horrible kept doing that and so he did it one the guys were looking at me left I didn't get fired and he was playing another night and no he was floor shoring and I decided to do a thing that I saw Illinois jacket do so while he's playing his solo now and the people was a dance and some people would dance it but it's almost an edge of the stage going and I went behind the drummer and I took my Horner loose and I got a running start and I ran to the front of the stage like I was gonna throw my horn in the audience and I did like that and stuff and everybody dumped you know I got fired and that we would Seattle Washington he says partner I got to let you cook but the next day I got a call from Quincy Jones he said can you join the band Dizzy's band I said yes he said when can you come I said tomorrow I just got if I hadn't gotten fired you know yeah so that's when I joined sounds like you were ready to be I wasn't ready I was ready 1956 yeah what was it like playing with dizzy now did you arrange a fair amount for a diseased band after after I was in the band a while Ernie Wilkens was a heavy Rider everybody done some things and I think I did stablemates Entwistle and a few other things I remember Clifford and what was it like now I had heard him or on the records and I've gotten his autograph years ago but sitting it and I joined without a rehearsal scene we opened at the Howard Theater so I'm sitting in saxophone section this is dancing with this beat and he's standing there playing and he played so much that when you hear somebody play that much you could think well I'll never be able to play like that you can get discouraged or you can be encouraged I was so discouraged I said I'll never be able to play like yeah hearing them play that stuff live and I wanted to say something to him to let him know how much I appreciate it what he was doing so when the show was over and everybody had left the bands of stage he and I were the last two and I said the coolest thing I could have said to this man Jesus you sure did blow and the man was so humble he said oh I was nothing and it was everything yeah and he shared all the knowledge he had I mean I went to his house once and went into his basement with him and boy he poured oil over me you know with the stuff he was sharing incredible fantastic now you stayed with Dizzy what about two years something like that something right and then did you go directly to Art Blakey's fan from there just about yeah just about yeah and how did that how did that come about ed by default hmm I wouldn't as a sub and for whom and for one night and then to the end of that 90s we could I play the second night I said yes and this person was having problems it was sick or something he asked me could he finished a week could I finish the week and I said yes then he asked me could I become a permanent member ID and I told him I'd like to but I couldn't because I just come to town I'm trying to establish myself you know writing for commercials and singers and bands and whatever you know so he said okay and the week was almost up and he says now I know you don't want to leave New York but I've got a weekend Pittsburgh it wouldn't hurt you if you love for one week and went to Pittsburgh with me would it that first night I'm playing with Art Blakey you know and I never play with the drama like that and after the second night and the third night and the whole week I'm getting deeper into it you know so when he asked me could I make that week I said oh yeah I can go to one week and when we got to Pittsburgh he was just he was a psychologist you're saying we got to Pittsburgh he said to me he's drawing me and all the time and I'm digging it he says now I know you don't want to join the band but didn't you go to Howard University in Washington DC I said yes he says up that you know a lot of people there in Washington I said oh yeah it's like a second home except but should it be glad to see you wouldn't it I said oh yeah I know so many people there said you know I got I got two weeks there you think you could make I said yeah I was a messenger yeah well some the band at that point was that Lee Morgan you know Lee Morgan Bobby timbres yeah well so and you were with Art Blakey for about a year about a year and did he encourage you to write music for the band or how did you oh yeah it's funny when I hope when I suggested bluesmartie had a problem I said all right you don't have anything special doubt that we're playing you need something that you would play from the very beginning you know like you did on the Lawrence monks Straight No Chaser we're start off with just the drums the right hand the left hand the right foot and all independent stuff I said you need something to draw the audience or the listeners attention to you from the very beginning I said all you do announce playing a drum solo at the end of a to like every other drummer I said what could we do we were thinking they're sitting at the table and I said you played everything there's the play I said except the March and we both laugh oh how ridiculous then I said oh wait a minute he said you've got to be kidding I said no I'm not talking about military like a gremlin in the south when they're playing March it's got dirt and grease and soul and it you know he said it'll never work I said let me let me try to see what I can come up with and I was living up my Harlem then and I went home and I had a piano I'd bought for $50 and somebody had started to paint it green and they got discouraged so half was green and hair was black and I put this tune together this March together and I took it back and I said let's let's try it he said what do I do I said you start playing the beginning he said what do I play I said play like we used to hear the American Legion bands coming through the neighborhood and when the bugles would stop the drums when the symbols would play try to imitate something like that he said well how you only know when to comment I said play me a rolloff he said what do you mean a role oh well I couldn't play the drums I had to do one of my mouth I said play dumb he said goes and he'll never work I said well let's play it and we're working up a smalls paradise in New York then up in Harlem I said this planet and see what the people how they react to it and so we and I gave it a big build-up ladies and gentlemen we're gonna play a tune it's on You mr. March you don't usually play Marsh blah blah blah blah and we started off playing that thing and we got into it and there's no dance in the club and they started dancing and bumping the tables of knocking the drinks over and he's so upset and he says I'll be you know what and he played it from that time until the time he died great stuff is March he had to play it I want to make sure that we talk a little bit I know that period with Blake he was very fruitful but then of course you've formed one of the great in my opinion most critics opinions one of the great groups in jazz history the Jazz tete with art farmer what was the genesis of the Jazz tete I mean were you still with Blakey when you had the idea to form your own band or no no I wasn't with him that's why the idea occurred yeah yeah and I thought instead of a quartet or a quintet which it was a plethora of those but there weren't any SEC stats mm-hmm and I thought be nice to have sextet and I could do a little arranging and get a certain sound and I loved the way art played because when I joined Lionel Hampton he was in the band 2-mile happen and quit and sort of formal allegiance with him and so I called him on the phone I said all right I'm thinking about putting him sextet together and I'd like to have you as my trumpet player and he broke out the left Wow what'd I say I said what he says well the reason I'm laughing he said I was thinking about putting a sextet together too and I was gonna call you tomorrow and be dutifully Wow so I said well let's get together and so we got together and the name was not ours we hired a fella named Curtis Fuller's a trombone player and he said well since it's a sextet we're playing jazz why don't we call it a jazz step and that's it's that came about how many albums did you make with the chairs Ted we made about let's see one we made about six or seven whoa yeah and on the first one was killer Joe and that's what really got us started yeah and that do you ever play Park Avenue petite anymore don't play it much but on my latest CD we recorded it with oh great on Terminal one we call it which was inspired by the Steven Spielberg film well this is something just to jump across about three decades now four decades actually I'd want to make sure that I asked you about that I want to take some questions from the audience that's it since you brought it up tell me a little bit what how did this come about that you were in this movie with that Steven Spielberg directed I was in Europe at the time and the office called me and said Steven Spielberg call the office today and he wanted to know are you interested in a small speaking role in this new film with Tom Hanks and I told him no I wouldn't be interested and it sounds ridiculous but the reason I said no because in the past Woody Allen's office call once about the same thing but when I went to where I thought I was gonna be the only one it was about 10 guys named for the same part and I didn't get it from his office called another time and I went it was about 15 to 20 guys I was in the audition you were being asses and I didn't get it and then I got a call for some TV commercials I didn't get it so I thought this is another one of those I don't want to waste my time I got me no I think he wants you so when I talk to him I know I'm not an actor I said well I was concerned I said well who will I be portrayed he said yourself wow I guess I could do that so so so he sent me a script with his office sent me a script and what I was supposed to say so I went downtown and I took the screen test and they said oh that's great we'll send it out to California to Steven and then they saw the look on my face and they said what's wrong I said well that's not the way a musician would really say that in that sort of situation so to say well we'll do it again and do it the way a musician would do it so I did and they sent to him and he said that's it and so that shot part of the film which was called the terminal in Lancaster California just north of Los Angeles and he said we're gonna do your part in Montreal Canada he said we're going to build a nightclub set for you what kind of a piano would you like I said a Steinway grand and when I got there it was there but when I got there and then I found out what it was all about I didn't really know and it seems like in in the picture Tom Hanks was this fellow from some mythological Eastern Bloc country and with this heavy accent in fact I told him Tom you sound like Dracula you know when he was talking and his father had died and it was a photograph great day in Harlem that was taken in 1958 and his father got everybody's autograph on that picture except benny golson and his father died and he wanted to get the autograph to complete and he had all these autographs in this peanut planters peanut bent up can and somebody asking what was in the can he said jazz autographs and then somebody else asked him later what's in that can he said my father said you didn't find out what was going on right and right picture see and well eventually he did get to me and he came to this club and saw me playing and and then if we were playing killer Joe something like and he had on this suit was like a pearl at the short coat the pants had never seen a crease and I said to a right in the middle of the scene Tom where did you get that suit I got to get one just like but it turns out the Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks were jazz fans now on that picture Sonny Rollins is still alive our silver Johnny Griffin Marian McPartland there's a drum on camera members I think they're about seven of us left and I wondered why did he pick me and you know what he told me he said I used to come and see you when I was a student in college and he knew all the tunes well it's same thing thing with Tom Hanks and I i sent them each a lithograph with I remember Clifford and Steven wrote me back he said that's always been one of my favorite tunes from your body of works and Tom wrote me a letter said I've always loved that tune the next time I play it I'll try to follow the music because it was the musical now I don't know if he meant from a recording or from whatever instrument that he was playing I don't I'm gonna ask I've gotten about three letters from but I haven't asked him yet does he plan this yeah for those of you who don't know the specific photograph that Ben he's talking about was taken in 1958 for Esquire that's right a sort of a stupid Harlem 26th Street between Lenox Avenue and 7th 7th Avenue mm-hmm and it gathered how many musical another 58 I was there 58 musicians from all eras of jazz up to that time and including Peter Saville recipe was on a count bass monk was on it laughter young and honest mom older generation people like Gene Krupa and Joe Jones oh yeah myth mole the trombonist so it covered the whole gamut of and those of you who don't know there was a wonderful documentary about it that was I think originally called a great day and weird illness that's when it came to have that name it didn't get the name until that mm-hmm I also as far as Hollywood is concerned now you moved to Los Angeles when in the early 60s sir in the mid 60s yeah okay and did you go out there specifically to write music for film or absolutely yeah can you talk about that a little bit yeah when I got out there I soon as I got it Quincy had gone out before me and Oliver Nelson went out after him and they were saying come come what was that guy's really but said go west horace greeley are screwy yeah and they had become him then the body ment of him so I went out there and soon as I got there I went to work at Universal Studios on a new series by Robert Wagner sold now call it takes the thief long and then I later I did The Partridge Family over at Columbia and that paramount I did Mission Impossible in Mannix that's another thing now this was composing the music for the plane yeah yeah but there were other people's themes I said but my internal music right then fine I got my own show and it died death of a doll take a left I have forgotten the name it was a girl from room 222 Karen Valentine and they gave her a show yeah was it what was the situation like in Los Angeles at that top well two things I want to ask you first did you keep playing saxophone during all that no no I stopped I figured I didn't like what I was playing so I just stopped and I didn't pick that horn up for over from must have been four or five years I guess and then I got the bug again I thought I was still I was just gonna write you know and when I picked it up again it was like getting over a stroke Wow really everything is going yeah and Paris and yeah it took me a long time to come back when you got to do that kind of work were the studios at that time had they been what was it I know that I knew african-american musicians in the 50s who had been playing in recording studios like Milton and Joe Wilder people like that who had kind of had to face a somewhat segregated atmosphere but what was Los Angeles like at that time was it cooler by that time it was beginning to change a bit your old Wilson had done a couple of things but you know and then when Quincy came it really started to open up Henry Mancini turned him on and he did the pawnbroker then he started doing some other things Ironside then Oliver went out there and he's Alvin Elsa okay and what did it six million dollars and some other things that I came in and I started to move and I did some shows there was it satisfying work for you oh I loved it but then I got tired of it yeah my time wasn't my own it was like a doctor on call I had no time I get up in the morning I ride all day til midnight sometimes just right right right and my wife and daughter but go out to the beach I go to the front dog with them as a goodbye you know and and Oliver Nelson died they gave me his show six million dollar man and while I was doing it the episode it was hard for me to do it because it had killed him he worked so hard and he was a fancy writer he had no time he would drink while he was riding and on and he came by my house and he told me is this miserable and then he died in the bathtub and then I got the show and I told my wife I said I think this is my last show I don't feel anymore and when we got the studio all of them musicians are all the violin players and everybody was there and all the chiefs and I wanted to make a speech and I know they wanted to kill me I said you know this music killed my friend and there there's no loyalty in the studios that the hierarchy oh man but I knew I was finished anyway but I was finished and when I finished all these applaud I know that it was sick of me all right listen let's get some questions from y'all I know we've been talking here for a long time who has anybody have any questions to ask mr. Gholson before we have to wrap things up here this evening any saxophone players arranger somebody over here the man in the shirt yes how long did you play and were you associated musically would you train it was a long time but when we played together we played together as amateurs aspiring musicians trying to learn from each other when I say each other I mean the two of us and other musicians and the recordings the only time we played together and it wasn't really playing it was on a recording by George Russell's called New York New York John Hendricks from John Hendricks we were both on that mm-hmm and we didn't see each other because we overdub he over dubbed this part at one time then I opened up my pod another time but we were on the same recording yeah yeah thank you yeah well here we have a question up there I one of the questions that I'm always concerned about and it's in relationship to your spiritual side as opposed to the cerebrum that that you know the mental side of your music it always feels so good and I wonder how much of it is inspirational from a spiritual realm well I don't never thought in terms of spiritual I just thought in terms of emotional and what I wrote were musical emotional responses you know like somebody says something to you and if it's something to make you angry you're gonna respond in one way or for woman tells you she loves you you're gonna respond in another way and that's the way I respond to my ideas emotionally so if I write a ballad it's something that I've been thinking about that's emotional that way a lost love of my first wife who died or whatever but if it's something up here it's not that at all it's another kind of emotion okay over there I'll let the microphone come to you comment on how did it come about that you got replaced on the messengers by Wayne Shorter how did that come about like I said I told our in the beginning I didn't want to join the band because I wanted to be established and after about a year I felt I really wanted to get to that to do something for my for my own future and I had recommended many things while I was there which which he took a hold of to his advantage you know even the money came up and I felt that it was time for me to go and do what I wanted to do rather than with the messengers so when I left it was a very friendly thing and that Wayne Shorter took my place but no one knows that after that though art would always call me when certain things would come up with certain problems and asked me what did I think and only we did that is because what I caused to happen when I was with the group did you recommend Wayne Shorter for the no no I did somebody else did mm-hmm how do you stay interested in the same songs over the years and do you ever listen to yourself playing these things from decades ago and and you can tell how you were feeling at the time how do you stay interested in playing the same songs you have to keep in mind that jazz is about improvisation no one comes to hear that melody over and over and over you play the melody then they want to know what you've got on your mind I went to work one night someone's asked me uh are you going to play a long game Betty tonight I said yes what soul are you going to play that night I said I have no idea see the point is we go to the same forest all the time but we don't go to the same trees we have different ideas we feel this way at this moment we feel another way at another moment so it doesn't get boring because we don't play that same solo I've played Along Came Betty I can't know how many but I know played the same solo so that keeps it interesting that makes it like an adventure what will I do tomorrow that I didn't do today can I can i rephrase the second part of you but do you ever go back and listen to your old recordings not much uh when I first do them I listen to the mad nausea then I put it away looking back too often and too long is like driving a car and looking out the back window you're gonna run into something I want to see where I'm going not where I've been you know I don't want to fall in love with things that I've done because you tend to level out and stop trying to create anything new and the - capacious the mind can hold incapable amounts of information so why limit yourself to just a few things I don't sculpt it and then pet and rub it I and set it aside and go to something else complete one piece of work that you're working on before you move on to another to the next piece of work or and if that isn't the case how do you like keep track of the pieces good question sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't I've got tunes that I started as long as 20 years ago more than that and having complete them yet then I've got other tunes that I have completed it depends on how you feel on any given day sometimes you'll go to the piano and I just has come out it's like things jumping out of Earth and grabbing you and then sometimes you have to go with the show shovel and try to dig them out you know yeah but it keeps it exciting and don't think that everything I've written is great I've written a lot of dogs that you'll never hear some horrible things you've mentioned that you worked with some vocalists in the 50s and that you also have read music for them and sometimes there tends to be tension between vocalist and instrumentalists so what do you think the responsibilities and the roles are of vocalists and the progression of jazz and just the jazz scene in general well there's a vast difference between in instrumentals and vocals but any vocals or any musician or any creative person is always trying to give their best sometimes I've heard somebody play a song and it gives me an inspiration not to copy that song but to do something else that may be reminiscent of that or another idea completely did you ever listen were you ever influenced by singers at all in their way of phrasing not in an overall sense but in a general sense in that when you play a ballad it's different than Cherokee at the speed of light when you play a ballad it's metaphorically like singing through your instrument it's not calisthenics and that's an 11 ISM it's about sorrow or deep feelings you know so many songs about broken love affairs one after the other and when you play a ballad I always feel that you should sing symbolically through your instrument linger on the notes you have time to get a bit of a good sound out of each note when you're playing he's gonna say I think he made a mistake in the third bar on the upbeat of the foot Dizzy Gillespie said playing slow song slow enough to eat a sandwich in between each beat and you'll find out where everybody is when you play a ballad there is nowhere to hide when you play here lots of hiding places who's gonna say oh I think his note was flat there and third when you play a ballad it's like land naked with no clothes on you're totally exposed it's a different animal ballad Wow great this is actually a guest in our town right now fine music writer in his own right this is actually Kahn who did the marvelous book on the making of so what by Miles Davis hey Ashley I've got to ask you since your childhood friend John went on to such you know avant-garde extremes by the 60s and he left so many people you know sort of behind as he did his own explorations how did you feel about his you know avant-garde approach and the way that he led so much of the jazz community you know and down that Avenue as well John did a lot of searching he was like like Picasso who went through different periods of blue period and you remember he went through a period like that pointillism different periods in he was like that and his practice was farting like every day hour on our like a man who had no talent and he did a lot of searching but at no time did his searching exceed his grasp he was able to grasp it he came by the house one time New York and I said well what are you doing now he says I'm practicing our Tatum runs and that's when they dubbed what he was doing ribbons of sound you know he and he could do that it will but he could also play the low-down dirty blues you know we all came from that you know although he's playing all save on Khan stuff he never forgot how to play the deepest version or element of the blues and that's where it all started from yeah he was a master worker the way that he affected the jazz scene there's this avant-garde edge that exists to this day that was do you see that as a leap forward much like say bebop was from the swing era in the 40s absolutely you see but what was considered a von Kahr and then is not necessarily avant-garde now see time has to catch up to what's going on sometimes like Thelonious Monk you know when he was alive in the last days of his life he wasn't even working he couldn't get arrested and now everything is on his monk but see actually he had arrived a long time ago but people were at the wrong station you see that's what happened when they couldn't comprehend and so what's what was new and avant-garde yesterday hey tomorrow it'll be old hat yeah one or two more questions yes ma'am learning how to play jazz or even later when you're starting to compose at a range were there things that people told you or that you were reading amongst yourselves that helped you get a handle on stuff like the chords the scale all that certifying lots of things that people told me but lots of things I had to distill and throw aside you know before you throw things aside though you have to consider them you know that's the wise thing to do so as a result I like rhythm and blues I like Country and Western some of those constant wrestling lyrics will bring you to tears you know and some of the hip-hop stuff some of the subject matters not so good sometimes but it's kind of nice beaten things like that and the other thing is Who am I to say that people shouldn't do other kinds of music Voltaire said I disagree with everything you say but we'll fight to the death for your right to say it and that's the way it is if I disagree with somebody else and think that they shouldn't do it they're looking at me thinking the same thing and I know I'm gonna continue to do what I want to do because that's all I know how to do yes you hear a lot of things but you have to learn to distill you pick the stock onto the market I'll take this candle know this was too hard you know yeah you hear lots of things and sort of how did what how did you decide what to balance and how to balance that and what made you do one and what made you do the other and I don't know how do you balance all the things that you do together when you look at me you're looking at a musical bigamist I love them both I embrace them both it's no problem and when I do one the other one doesn't exist and when I do the other one the other doesn't exist the two never mix what happens if one sees you with the other in the market or something then I'm in trouble listen I think this has just been an extraordinary experience to listen to benny golson talk to us about so many wonderful things and we want to thank you for just generously sharing your time with us and your insights and your life experience thank you so much benny golson thank you you

Channel: ArtistsHouseMusic

Views: 11,742

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: jazz, master class, New Orleans

Id: 6K5ncbw8J9s

Length: 61min 58sec (3718 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 07 2011