A Historical and Biblical Defense of Icons with Nathan Jacobs (Hank Unplugged Podcast)

well I'm engaged in a series of videos with my good friend Nathan Jacobs in the Hank unplug podcast which is dealing with stumbling blocks between orthodoxy and evangelicalism so many people looking at Eastern Orthodoxy or the ancient church look at the ancient church to a particular prism out there a particular lens and many of these people are very zealous about truth in the introduction video that I did which precedes this video I talked about a friend who I'd play golf with for a long time who was concerned that I might be worshipping idols because of the fact that within Eastern Orthodoxy there is a great emphasis that is placed on icons and I want to read something that I wrote in my book truth matters life matters more I'm talking here about the seven ecumenical councils the seventh of which was the Council of Nicaea in 787 it was Nicaea not one in 325 but and I see it too and here's what I wrote I I said that the Second Council of Nicaea not only exonerated Icona duals meaning venerate errs of icons but afforded icons their rightful place as Windows into another world a world of Christ in the cross a world of saints and martyrs an iconographic world of those deified by Grace's dispensed with in the spiritual gymnasium which is the body of Christ as with other heresies condemned by the counsels the iconoclastic heresy exposed a false Christology and I think we really want to camp out on that a false Christology why because the invisible word who took on flesh also sanctified visible realities like holographic images of the faith once for all delivered to the Saints now you've done a far more significant work on icons in a paper for the Christian research journal that is titled John of Damascus and his defense of icons I want you to talk a little bit about John of Damascus who he is a lot of people may not be familiar with John of Damascus and why was it necessary to defend icons what is the significance of icons and and maybe in the discussion we can go so far as perhaps to make the analogy that if someone was reading Dante's Inferno today they might read it in the wooden literalistic fashion and failed to see that there's a tapestry a rich tapestry of meaning that's inculcated in this piece in this great what's often referred to as a Divine Comedy not in the sense of comedic but in the inverse of the sense of a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet so the the same thing is true with icons people look at icons and oftentimes they don't see the profundity there's that kind of two-dimensional I don't think it's particularly appealing but there's a world there that is just waiting to be explored so let's talk about icons and and and what the Eastern Orthodox perspective is with respect to icons which is not about worshipping an object or idolizing an object but has to do with the difference between worship and veneration that's right yeah so that's a distinction that John of Damascus who you mentioned that I talked about in in that paper he is very big on that distinction right between prose kinases and latria right the difference between honor and worship John of Damascus is a fascinating church father and definitely in my my you know sort of top top five favorite of the church fathers I've I've always said that if I was bound to pick only one you know work by a church father that I could you know was allowed to to hold on to I would probably pick John of Damascus as sort of Nisan but it's not a single work but his trio that was done in in in defense of the Orthodox faith where he he wrote the fount of knowledge which was basically this encyclopedic catalog of patristic terms right now which is incredibly helpful right a church father saying when the church fathers use this word they mean this right when they use this word they mean this did a catalog of heresies or at his own heresies and then he did an exact exposition of the Orthodox faith right and this is a fascinating work because it's essentially a systematic theology written by a church father that's supposed to be based on nothing but the consensus of the church fathers before him and that really in embodies what John of Damascus was all about his concern was always to say I want to add nothing to this work I just want to be faithful to what's been handed down before me right to tradition because that's what tradition means to hand something down and in the same way his defense of icons and bodies that same concern his concern is I want to be faithful to what's been handed down and so his his defense of the icons is really in that same spirit and the context in which he's writing is a fascinating one because really John of Damascus was somebody who was in the midst of these you know sort of error Byzantine wars Islam is is making its advances on Byzantium and with that there are mounting losses that start to cause certain people specifically the Emperor to wonder I wonder if maybe maybe we're guilty of idolatry right the very the very charge that you raised right maybe we're guilty of idolatry maybe that's why the Muslims are are winning you know maybe we should rethink these practices and that's what sparked this entire iconoclast controversy let's go break apart the icons you know let's go whitewash the icons let's get rid of them all and John of Damascus is writing in that context saying I think that's a divergence from the faith and more importantly not only is it a divergence from what has been handed down I think the only way to embrace that position is to do so via a faulty Christology and that's that's really the heart of of where he goes so in terms of John of Damascus as defensive icons there are several different components to it and I'm happy to start with you know whichever one you think is best he obviously deals with the biblical case which is the one you met you mentioned he deals with this distinction between honor and worship which is another one you mentioned he deals with the connection between likenesses and the things they are like and he also deals with most importantly what is accomplished in the Incarnation and how that informs the Christian view of matter and holiness and creatures that participate in holiness and so on so I'm happy to start the third is best the the latter I think to say that to be an iconoclast is to have a false Christology is is pretty poignant language it is and I think we ought to start why is it that we would say that someone who is against icons may be in danger of having an inadequate view of Christ in the Incarnation yeah well so John this connects directly with John's treatment of the biblical texts so John looks at the the command right though you're not supposed to make any graven images and bow down to them and worship right these sorts of things and as he looks at that command he says yeah he grants it on the surface it looks like that prohibits it looks like it prohibits images but John points out and you know but clearly that's a superficial reading because God goes on and commands them and they make a bunch of images of things in heaven and things earth for the tabernacle this is it's clearly not that so what is it about and thankfully we haven't Deuteronomy for an exposition of exactly what the commandment is about and in Deuteronomy for what is stated very clearly is that the reason you are not supposed to make a likeness of anything is because when the Lord appeared to you on Horeb on Mount Horeb you heard a voice but you saw no likeness and then it goes on and it says you know ad unless you look around and you know you make for yourself a likeness of a man or something that creeps or something that flies by the air or celestial body remember you heard a voice but you saw in no likeness in other words the exposition of the commandment is all about the fact that your God is invisible when he appeared to you he did not appear in the likeness of any of these things which means that if you make a likeness and say this is my god that likeness will not be of your God it will be of a man and you will be worshipping man it will be of a creeping thing and you will be worshipping that it will be of the son and you will be worshiping that in other words the real danger that the commandment prohibits is that you might worship creatures and John says and that's exactly what the devil is led humanity into the worship of creation of demons which are of course creatures and and his concern is that that at the end of the day that is the real prohibition it's not a prohibition on on images because God does command them to make images now the question that this raises is the very question of what do you do with the Incarnation right something has changed the word took on flesh and dwelt among us and John wants to know he says look I'm the Commandant still prohibits making images of the father the father has no you know likeness right he's still the invisible God but as Paul says God has given to us the likeness of the invisible God which is the son of God incarnate as your life away says that first cool Colossians 1 or is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation that's right and it's the word icon right that image right that word translated image is icon and that's exactly John's point is he says look the question is when you look at the contrast between Deuteronomy which says make no likeness because you heard a voice and saw a likeness how does that square with say first John right where he talks about you know us proclaiming what we have seen what we've looked on what we've touched right this is what we proclaim and and John insists that look the fact that the Son of God has appeared in the flesh means he does have a likeness it is possible to make a likeness of him and the concern is that the only way to get around that there are only a couple of ways to get around the assertion that a likeness of Christ is a likeness of the Son of God one way is to go the route of the manna keys at ascetic route right where you say well he wasn't really incarnate right it was a phantasm it was an appearance it's not really him but of course clearly that's contrary to the teachings of Scripture that he took on flesh and dwelt among us so John's concern is docetism right where you you would reject the Incarnation wholesale the alternative is that you divide Christ in two and this is the error the error of what is called miss Torian ISM right so in the third ecumenical council dealing with the Nestorian heresy what you have is you have the you have the concern that with mist aureus he really has not only two natures right the divine and human nature but he has two persons right he has two subjects and somehow you know these are fused together and and but you know there's the human subject and then there's the divine subject and so you could divide Christ into and say well you know this is only an image of his humanity right and not of his divinity and that's why you know this is a problem but again the Orthodox position and but here I'm using Orthodox not in the Eastern Orthodox Church as opposed to right where we sit now in history but the Christian position right by the Orthodox faith at the time John meant Christianity the Christian position was that Christ is only one subject right he has two natures but there's only one person it's the word that dwelt among us the word was the one who was crucified the word was the one we saw and touched right and that Square is precisely with John the Apostle John's language about the proclamation and so John of Damascus is worried is that the really the two main routes by which somebody might say that this icon is not an icon of the Son of God are to either deny the Incarnation or to divide Christ himself and isolate his humanity from his divinity as if he's two people rather than one but both of those are contrary to the faith that was once given over to the Saints so how do you get from that to the the existential experience of walking into an Orthodox Church you're an evangelical you open the doors and you see that in the narthex of the church and maybe it's important to point out that the church is divided into three substantial parts you have the narthex of the church you have the nave where people gather and then you have the sanctuary so the kitchen for the priests right when you walk into the back of an orthodox church you will see people lighting candles and you will see people venerating icons and in that veneration you will see them kiss the icon you'll see them bow before the icon how is that not the worship of an icon and what is the attraction of the icon to begin with two dimensional doesn't look all that jazzy in terms of modern art or even ancient art in in and what what's going on with these icons I mean there's something that is mysterious and and multifaceted there but seems obscure to the person just walking and seeing it for the first time walking in and seeing it first oh well I think there's sort of three things happening there the one the one is that John's distinction between veneration right proskuneo sis and latria right between veneration or honor and worship right so honor is approved by Scripture approved by church tradition but worship is not that's exactly right so John points out he points to a host of biblical texts in which what you see is that the people right the people of God appropriately right without rebuke honor a person right they honor a place right they honor a thing consider for example how the tabernacle was handled itself clearly it was treated with honor with veneration because it was not a common object right these things were touched by God right it's interesting that Moses just like as you know Hank icons are not just you know considered icons just because they've been painted right they're supposed to be blessed and they're placed behind the altar right they they are in some ways set apart as sacred and what's interesting is in the Old Testament you see the same practice right Moses anoint see blesses the artifacts of the attend the the tabernacle and then the glory of God sends and touches them and now they are set apart as holy they are no longer common objects right because they have commune with God and have been set apart as sacred and icons are treated in the same way the liturgical artifacts are treated in the same way these are not just common objects and so John points out that it's appropriate to honor people of authority it's appropriate to honor holy people it's appropriate to honor places where God has appeared right we see that all the time in scripture where a place is honored because God has done something there and appropriate to honor certain objects that are you know for example Aaron's rod that you know but it and so on so you're on points to all of these examples to say honor or veneration of things that are not common or our sacred sat apart as Holy that's perfectly appropriate but you're absolutely correct you should never ever ever worship them and it's one of the things that's interesting in in Luke wouldn't the when the commandment you know you shall it's actually you know you shall honor the Lord your God and worship Him alone right and the alone is ascribed to the electric right to the worship part of it but not to the the exclusivity is not applied to the prosecute esis to the honoring and so so John is very insistent worship of icons is anathema right that is that is something that should never be done and that would be idolatry if they were worshipped but no no Christian should ever worship at them an icon they should treat them with some sort of reverence or honor the way you would have treated the tabernacle you know in the Old Testament with honor because it's not just a common object but it is not worship so that's one of the key distinctions that John makes the other thing that goes on there also though is John's insistence that there is a connection between the person right that this is a likeness of and the likeness right so John points out that the word you know homely homely OMA likeness that keeps on showing up in Deuteronomy for in the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy for is it's it's not idle right it's not eat ELO's it's it's not using the word for idle it's using the word for likeness and that the real concern there is that you will worship the thing it is like all right and so this is there's this phrase that shows up in John of Damascus and then his counterpart Theodore the due date that you know the honor paid to the image passes to the archetype and here the presumption is that when you are honoring you know when you are paying honor to the likeness of a person right it is really not you know it is passing from that image to to the archetype and there's two examples you could give here of course the one would be something simple like let's say you have a soldier on the field battle misses his wife he pulls out her photo out of his pocket looks at it he kisses it is there any real concern that he's enamored with the photo paper you know that doesn't seem to be at all what's present this is all about his wife right this has to do with a display of his affection and his longing to be with his wife again and so this is this is about the archetype not about the image right not about the material of the image and in a similar way John points out that that's exactly what the Tabernacle in the Old Testament does the Old Testament talks about we find in Scripture and Hebrews for example that that the tabernacle is a shadow right of these it is an image of the things that you know we're shown to Moses it's a shadow of the heavenly realm it is a likeness of heavenly realities and in this way right the priest stands before a likeness for example in the Holy of Holies right the Ark of the Covenant is a likeness of the heavenly throne of God that's why there's angels on top of it that you know look you know don't look because you know who are they not looking at they're looking at God right so there's no likeness of God but God will meet you above the mercy seat right and so you have the likeness of things in heaven that won't look at God and that's how we sort of signify that you know that's where God is and by offering sacrifice before that likeness he offers to God you know sacrifice to God right and so the interaction is actually with a likeness of a heavenly reality and in that it's passing to the you know to the archetype itself right this is the means by which he makes sacrifice to God and John of Damascus this point is that in a similar way what we have is we have these shadows of the Saints here before us we have these shadows of Christ that are here before us and even though we can't see them right physically present in the flesh before us what we can do is we can pay honor to them by honoring their likeness the same way that a soldier might kiss a photo of his wife who he misses because she's not physically present with him and that's the closest approximation he has and similar the way a priest and the tabernacle would make sacrifice to God before the likeness of his heavenly throne so that's the that's sort of the second component to that that argument there now as for you know what these images mean right you you brought up the question of sort of flat exterior and whether there's a greater depth and there certainly is I don't know if I'm the best person to speak to the you know all the dimensions of those that depth but you what new things that you do see is that there is a very careful there is a very clear intentionality to the way these icons are crafted right there's there are sacramental you know elements used in their construction and in a very intentional way there is symbolism in the positions of their hands that would be missed right if you are unfamiliar with what those positions mean there is intentionality of you know in corruption that comes through in the gold that's used there and so and and then you know manin I would just use let's say I'll use an example of you know maybe rather than speaking in these broad terms I'll use one example but I think is fascinating there is the icon I'm sure you're familiar with it of Pentecost right and the history of this icon is fascinating because one of the things that you see is you see okay there are the Apostles right and there is sitting in this sort of archway and there's this door underneath and commonly what you see is an old man holding fabric with you know these you know something on the fabric and you go okay so it's Pentecost right what's the big deal but there's a certain richness to what is there if you follow the history of that icon because first of all one of the things that you find is just like the sort of odd geometry of these icons which is intentional it's not that they just couldn't figure out perspective or something like that it has to do with this sort of you know it deals in both the sort of warped nature of our current reality but also the sort of timeless realities that they're dealing with right it's not supposed to be a simple you know realist rendition of these things but you see that come through also in the fact that Paul is present right in the Pentecost why on earth is Paul present Paul was imprisoned at Pentecost right am I forgetting my Bible I mean was paul president kind of goes and so already there it signals this is not about that moment in time right and then you would say well who's the old man you know in the doorways start to realize oh that archway and those doors represent the doors of the church and the old man there is oftentimes labeled if we read it right the cosmos right the cosmos being at that in that doorway but in older icons when you look at the history of this one of the things that's fascinating is that in certain times in church history those doors are shut and they're shut because those icons were done during a certain time of persecution as you know in the liturgy right before they perform you know the the Eucharistic moment the doors the doors and the history of that declaration the doors the doors was guard the doors right unless they come in and defile the Eucharist right I mean we need to finish this up now before they come in and and take us in and we're all martyred and there were times in church history where that icon the doors are shut right because of the persecution that's there but there are other times in church history where you see all the tribes and peoples of the earth there and that has to do with both the Pentecostal moment and the undoing of Babel that's there but it also has to do with the depth and richness of of the redemptive work of Christ and one of my favorite oddities in the history of that icon is actually that in some of the renditions of it there's a dog man amongst all the peoples and tribes of the earth I mean by dog man I mean you know a humanoid that has a dog head and in the history of iconography if you go back to the pagan icons of the pagan images of the monsters at the far reaches of the earth right whether it's these abominations one of them is a dog man similarly in some Jewish iconography of the flood where the Nephilim are being drowned and they're interpreted as these demonic human hybrids their dog men in the water and so similarly one of the things you see in the history of this icon is that it's not just bringing back together the people from every tribe and tongue but it's even undoing the abominations that ought not to be that have defiled the creation which these are such profound statements about the work of Christ and about the faith but if you don't realize that if you don't really understand that the depth of this liturgical texts which is really how they saw it it's a liturgical texts yeah the assessment will but just be a superficial assessment of do I like the colors are those how's the anatomy yeah I actually want to move on to the next in the video series as we tackle a lot of the objections that people raise to the historic Christian faith to Orthodoxy in particular but you you capture my interest in what you just said as you were explaining what's going on in a particular icon mm-hmm the icon that has to do with Pentecost there's a whole tapestry of biblical truth that you're unfolding and all of that is rendered in pictorial form and I I think it's worth elaborating on the fact that there was a time in which the Christians simply didn't have Bibles I mean the Bible didn't just fall out of the sky right they did have Bibles mm-hmm you can say that period was ten years or 20 years or 40 years but there was a period when people didn't have Bibles there was a period in which even the letters that were being circulated were not available to all the churches and certainly there was a period of time in which all of the letters as a corpus as the New Testament the twenty-seven books the Old Testament hadn't been ratified that wasn't really done until Athanasius the great in 367 and then didn't become prevalent in all the churches till a long time after that so during that period of time two had to be away in which the truth once for all delivered to the Saints was passed on and the church is depicted in Scripture as the ground and the pillar of truth which is commissioned to do that very thing to pass on these truths and one of the ways that was done was in pictorial form through icons yeah well John talks about that very fact he talks about these icons as texts of the illiterate right and so in many ways one of the ways one of the reasons he thinks they are due honor is not just for their you know role as part of the liturgical life of the church not just because they've been blessed and set apart but also because they are means of instructing young people they are means of instructing the illiterate they are memorials right he also makes them memorials right in many ways one of the things we see consistently happen in scripture whether it's in listen you'll see textual memorials the things God has accomplished in Sacred Scripture you'll also see obviously the making of memorials of a certain place where God has shown up and when John of Damascus looks at the icons and identifies what they are and what they are doing that memorial is also part of it right they are memorials their text their instruction and with that of course John is also insistent as you pointed out that that this is part of the oral tradition of the church that is handed down and John takes that very seriously because when we consider the fact that you know Paul says about what by whatever I've told you whether by word of mouth or by epistle for us that just comes across as one verse in a complete New Testament but as you pointed out for most people especially the original here you know readers of that or hearers of that right you know being read in the church would hear that when they may only have a couple of letters right they didn't they don't hear that in the context that we have a complete do some restroom Nathan son there is an urgent need to use the restroom and he's being very very patient so so we see that as one verse to be considered amongst a completed New Testament but for the original readers of that you know they're sitting there maybe they've only seen a couple of letters only heard a couple of letters and so the oral tradition that's been passed down the instructions they've received of what to do and how to live as Christians are as primary to them if not more primary to them than the written text that they have because in some ways those may outweigh quantitatively you know apostolic instruction they may have more oral instruction from the Apostles than written and John of Damascus realizes of course that becomes a bit of a tabula rasa into which you could hypothetically push any number of things and that's but that's what exactly why one of the things that John of Damascus regularly is at the end of each of the three treatises he writes right are three orations that he writes in defense of the icons he catalogues writings from the church fathers to demonstrate look I'm not just saying that there was an oral tradition where this practice was done and has been done from the start I will show you the texts in which the church fathers themselves consistently embody this as part of the practice of the faith that was handed down and in in so that's where what we see there is with John this continuity and that continuity has to do with that faith once given over to the Saints one of the things that struck me as you're speaking is that there was a certain sense of illiteracy because people were either illiterate or they didn't have the text to go by and so the icons became ever more poignant and profound in that epoch of time but seems to me that the same thing is true today and we want to move on but let me cash this out quickly and have you comment when I was in the hospital this summer not all that long ago I had a wall of icons set up in my hospital room and one of the primer icons as an icon that is delineate it is the two faces of Christ that Christ says one person with two natures 100 cent human 100% divine and people would come into my hospital room and some of them would say wow this is a holy place but I was absolutely fascinated by the interest people showed in those icons and quite frankly I had the opportunity to be a witness for Christ over and over again as people came into the hospital room people that were visiting me doctors nurses workers cleaners they would look at those icons and I'd start to explain some of the nuances that you have so masterfully explained to those people in my hospital room and as a result of that there were all kinds of people deeply impacted by the faith once for all delivered to the Saints my point I guess Nathan is that perhaps today the icons have an exaggerated profundity because people by and large should become biblically literate once again mm-hmm yeah well I will I will say that one of the things I talked about in in the film becoming truly human was just how befuddled I was during my spiritual journey by sacred images and one of the things that was so perplexing to me was that I was drawn to them and but there wasn't yeah if you know if I'm really honest with my memory of what that allure meant was right it wasn't me being drawn to the images just because of a technical proficiency right I I was drawn to Michelangelo because he was incredible at Anatomy but that was not the same type of draw that I had two other types of religious spaces and artifacts and part of what I was drawn to there in icons or what I found intriguing and fascinating about others sort of even you know Egyptian wing of a museum or something like that was it seemed that there was a transcendent reality that was somehow made a minute in these things it was clear to me you know that that's a you know that artifacts from Egypt we're not just carvings right these were conduits for something and and in some ways that that would oftentimes be disturbing if you get a vibe that you think I don't whatever this is conduit for I don't want to have much to do with and it's the sometimes it was a luring right such as in iconography but I had no framework for processing that but one of the things that I think I've noticed in many of the nuns circle back to the becoming truly human film and in the conversation we had in a in a previous segment about the many of the nuns in - at the same thing they're drawn to sacred spaces and sacred imagery and they find that in some way intriguing that speaks to some aspect of their spiritual intuitions that they're drawn to and I think here you see two things that come out and I'll try to make this as brief as possible but one one thing that comes out is the opportunity for them to instruct which is exactly what John has talked about and exactly what you know you just talked about these texts of the illiterate and as you said right there's growing biblical illiteracy so so there's real opportunity for the icons to do work right on behalf of of those who don't know these stories or don't know these truths whatever it may be but the other thing is this concept that John talks about that I think is important is one aspect of his argument that I haven't talked about is the fact that when Christ joined himself to humanity and was incarnate in the flesh he didn't just take on our flesh he metamorphosized in right we see in the transfiguration his flesh you know glows with divine energy in the resurrection he puts off corruption for in corruption and one of the things that John points out is that that divine life that Christ brings into our species and joins with us it doesn't just stop at his flesh right even his garments become conduits for this sort of thing and while that may seem like a foreign concept there's certainly biblical precedent for the idea that you don't just have prophets or angels or apostles serving as conduits for divine life and you know what the Eastern Orthodox will call energies right but you also see objects being conduits for God's operative powers right objects participate your errands but the you know Aaron's rod that budded I mentioned is one of them but we also see this sort of thing happen where even you know the Apostles touch handkerchiefs and then they're brought to the sick and you those things are used heal or somebody touching Christ robes and them being used to heal in other words one of the things that John asked us points out is that the redemptive work of Christ and the bringing together the life of God into our world doesn't just stop at a spiritual reality it extends to the material reality extends to our flesh and even beyond and the material world is caught up in this participation of God and so when John talks about things that are set apart as Holy right places that have become holy people who have become holy right Saints that's what the word means right the Holy Ones or even objects that have been set apart as holy one of the things that he is pointing out is this more profound reality that holiness is something that is unique to God and something becomes holy because it communes with God and in some ways to put it crudely God rubs off on them right and that's where when John talks about the tabernacle being set apart as Holy right because Moses blessed it and then God touched it that there is a similar reality that is believed about the icons in the liturgical life of the church this place has been set apart and blessed and touched by God and made holy and that's why we don't treat it as common things because just like us who have been given the privilege of communing with God and being made a holy people so even the place of worship and the instruments of worship have been touched by God and made holy by communion with him beautiful so much more to be said I mean we spend hours and hours on this and and maybe to some degree our discussion will stimulate people to take an even deeper dive with respect to icons there's a whole history and as I pointed out at the very beginning you see that history come to a climax and I see a to 787 so this was dealt with historically in the councils of the church in collegial fashion I want to in the next video talk about something that gives us a template for looking at many of the stumbling blocks that come up faith versus works so Lafitte a etc this was precipitated in my mind actually by an article that my son David posted and I read the article and I thought wow this is my oldest son David I thought wow this is really an interesting article I bet you a lot of people would be interested in reading this article so we posted it on the web at equipped org it's still up there and and then people started posting it all over the place magazines posted it and that article became the subject of a lot of controversy the articles title does the Bible answer man's son believed that he has left the Christian faith and I tell my son David did a terrific job writing this article but people have responded as I said to the article and one of those responses comes from a well-known evangelical group that has a tremendous zeal for for reaching the lost for abiding by the essentials of the historic Christian faith and so they went through that article and they pointed out a lot of things that from their perspective makes it abundantly clear than Hank Hannah graph has left the Christian faith we'll talk about that in the next Hank unplugged podcast in this series on stumbling blocks and that people perceive within Eastern Orthodoxy you

Channel: Bible Answer Man

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Length: 44min 1sec (2641 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 11 2020