A Conversation with Jim Leavelle and Eddie Barker

we're in for a treat tonight and this is just the beginning of this series and I wanted to point out a couple of of the programs that are coming up to you like for example Wednesday on February 28th Pulitzer prize-winning photographer Bob Jackson will give a multimedia show about the events that occurred during at the assassination and right down to the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald on Wednesday April the 18th there'll be arresting Oswald and that's moderated by Hugh Ainsworth who covered the Kennedy assassination as a Dallas Morning News reporter the panelists are will be Paul Bentley and Jerry Hill who participated actually they made the arrest of Oswald at the Texas theater on November the 22nd 1963 it's hard to believe that's been 46 years ago but I guarantee you 46 years from tonight this this museum will still be here and there'll be a crowd dislike you we won't be here of course but there'll be a crowd just like you that'll be here just as interested in what went on in Dallas on that fateful day I want to mention again that on May the 16th the program is going to be si si Dallas if you like the CSI TV programs you certainly will love this CSI Dallas it'll be a lively panel discussion about the forensic methods that are used in capturing criminals today compared with what they were back in 1963 now for more information about the programs that are forthcoming you'd want to go to the website WWJ f k org before I introduce the panel that's going to be speaking tonight and having this conversation with you I've been asked to explain what my job was at the time of it was at the time of the assassination and share with you a little about how the Office of Justice of the Peace played a role in the investigation following the assassination on November 22nd 1963 I was a Dallas County justice of the peace I was 11 months in my first elective term and Dallas County justices of the peace said in their organization had set up a duty roster so that there would be one justice of the peace on duty each weekend that would be available both night and day during the weekend to accommodate the police agencies in Dallas County well the weekend of the assassination was my duty weekend in those days there existed a degree of much stronger degree of cooperation between the justice of the peace court and the police departments the office of justice of the peace provided peace bond service back then there were no domestic violence courts no terroristic threats charges our law that allowed that and so whenever the police investigated a domestic disturbance or a neighborhood fight they would refer the parties to the local justice of the peace who would use this peace bond proceeding to quell the arguments another thing that the Justice of the Peace did in those days was instilled us provided the police with search warrants and arrest warrants warrants now in those days since we had no county medical examiner office as such like we do today the justices of the peace performed the inquest on all the deaths that occurred without an attending physician and any of the deaths that were thought to be accidental homicide or so a greater degree of cooperation existed between my office and the Dallas Police Department because I was one of the JPS located within the Dallas City Limits I didn't mind being called day or night and was readily available during the day being just across the river in the Oakland courthouse on South Beckley Avenue now about the time that President Kennedy was pronounced to dead at Parkland Hospital I was called to Methodist Hospital to perform the inquest investigation of officer JD Tippit officer chippy Tippett as you'll recall had been shot by Oswald and he was shot four times in the chest because there was obvious cause of death why I was asked to order a limited forensic autopsy which means they only did the autopsy around the area where the bullets would in and it was for the purpose of the medical examiner or the pathologist could testify as to the mode and cause of death now while I was at Methodist Hospital sanim that autopsy order for officer Tippit the homicide detective started to contact me to come to Parkland for the inquest of the president before they could reach me judge there and ward at justice to the piece from Garland rushed to Parkland and informed the officers that he would take over the inquest duties since Judge Ward was already there and I was still at Methodist Hospital the call to Judge Brown was cancelled now back at police headquarters Lee Harvey Oswald was being investigated as the prime suspect in the shootings of officer Tippit and the president after our return to my office from Methodist Hospital three of the investigating detectives from homicide and robbery asked me for our search warrant to search the suspect for him at his boarding house on North Beckley Avenue then on early Saturday morning homicide detectives GF Rose an R esto Vall contacted me for a search warrant to search the home of Ruth Payne out in Irving that's the home where Marina Oswald lived as a result of that search much incriminating evidence was seized by homicide detectives more roles in Stovall on Sunday morning November the 24th as also all was being taken to the jail you all know what happened and Jack will be there after was of course indicted for the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald but that shooting was seen by millions on TV I'm sure that most of you saw it Oswald was rushed to Parkland Hospital where he was pronounced dead at 1:07 p.m. immediately thereafter I was contacted by detectives al board at mg Hall for a warrant to search Jack Ruby's office at the Carousel Club 1312 and I had Commerce Street after issuing that warrant other detectives requested a warrant to search his apartment on Ewing Street in Oakland the search warrant was issued and homicide detectives found as evidence at Ruby's apartment a copy of the morning newspaper opened to the pictures of the assassination along with $3,000 cash in a locked closet of course the Dallas County grand jury as I said in death indicted Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby for the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald the indictment was returned to criminal district court number three which incidentally was presided over by my father Judge Joe be brown senior well all eyes were on Dallas at that time and considering the circumstances that we were working under I think we were very fortunate to have one of the nation's finest homicide detectives leading our efforts his name was Captain John will Fritz and over the following 16 years that I served as a justice of the peace I grew to know and admire captain Fritz and his detectives quite well now one of those detectives that I worked with and came to admire is our first panelist Jim Lavelle Jim is no stranger to history he joined the Navy and I 18:39 and served on board the USS Whitney in the Pacific Theatre and on December 7th 1941 he was manning the guns when the Pearl Harbor was attacked after his discharged he joined the Dallas Police Department and as a detective in the homicide and robbery Bureau he was heavily involved in the Kennedy assassination investigation and was the detective that was handcuffed to Oswald at the time he was shot by Jack Ruby Eddie Barker has been in broadcasting for more years than many in tonight's audience have been alive from his junior year in high school when he first broke into radio 264 years later when he joins us tonight to recall a period being a reporter on the scene of one of history's most gripping events that of course was the assassination of President Kennedy Eddie Barker was news director of the NK rld TV channel 4 and KRLD radio on that fateful day Barker was first to announce to the world that the president was dead the first to interview the assassins would omarina his staff included reporters like West wise Bill Mercer Bob Huffaker among others whose work provided CBS with coverage that only local reporters would have access to it was the telling time and Eddie Barker and the Kold new staff stood tall in telling the tragic story to the world I'm very happy to present to you a conversation with Jim Lavelle and Eddie Barker thank you very much George Brown and just as an opening remark I had the privilege of knowing your dad he was one of the three criminal district judges we had at that time and I don't know we must have what a dozen now Jim a lot of Kotor then but the judge Brown was a favorite of reporters and he conducted a a court much in the manner of somebody who had the common touch and I would imagine that my good friends of Murphy Martin and herb sure what am I doing here Brett first shift in that awful I cannot remember Bert ships main after 75 years of knowing it and there of course for the Gregg guys over channel 8 and did a remarkable job in the assassination coverage and Jim before we get too far into this al Maddox who at the time will you smile are you going to tell an untruth or using guilt well I'll tell you what I'm gonna let you tell the truth but al Maddox was one of the real close associates of Chekov a sheriff bill Decker and he came up tonight and gave me a card of bill Dekker an old bill Decker card and I said al where's your hat and that and for any of you who are back then not many of you were but down at the sheriff's office bill Dekker had a requirement that every deputy were a hat and carry a cigarette lighter and a cigarette and down at the city captain Fritz said everybody wears a half gallon cowboy hat and Jim ravel's had his out Lavelle's hat is out there on the clothes that he wore and Jim I must say scuse I have been asked this many times through the years where did you buy that suit how you're trying to embarrass me they all tell you the truth very people know it but a friend of mine owned it it's a Neiman Marcus suit and you know that police offer didn't make the money to buy a Neiman Marcus suit and he got too fat for it and he gave and he asked me if I could he said if I could wear it I could have it and I made it fit and that is the suit the hangs on the medicate out there now it's the one that everybody thinks just white when they look at it in the picture but it's actually a tan yeah it was not quite as white as we all thought it was in fighters this tablecloth that's right that's right well those were some pretty interesting days what they yeah they was that we asked a lot of people here I've talked to tonight I was telling me where they were on that particular morning as well as the day on Friday when the president was shot and my only response to that is some of them said there was in church and I said well I would have been there too yeah it was it was time for different back then well my of course you actually talked to Oswald on several occasions prior to actually taking him down the stairs right well I really come to him when he first brought in because he was arrested for shooting officer JD Tippit and he was not arrested for the shooting of the president and I happened to be in Oak Cliff I volunteered to take the call over that woman off in offers down while we got somebody's got to go and I volunteered to take that call and over there and when they finally run aground in the in the Texas theater tempted to get up there in the car but the crowd traffic was such that couldn't get there so I asked him told him bear taken to my office and I'd meet him and when I got into the office why he was already there and setting it up so I see an interview room we had we had another main floor but then was so we I went in and started talking to him about the shooting of about the murder offers a David I wasn't talk to him about the murder of the president cuz I didn't had at that time I didn't have a clue that he was going to be a suspect in it so I talked to him some 15 minutes or so before captain Fritz and the officers in the in this building searching would you talk about for 15 months with him well I was asking them about the murder of the officer which he was denying a course and I've tried course part of the time I tried to reach some rapport with him as I do with anybody I'm talking with and he was very calm and collected and answered my questions and I read in natural more truthfully but for instance I told him I said lead you strike me as being a pretty smart individual you know that we can take the pistol that you had only when you're arrested and fire some ballistic to it and match them with the bullets that came out of the officer and prove that it came from your gun and he suggests I know that but you just have to do it in other words you may convict me and send me to the penitentiary for life or get me the electric chair but I'm not going to help you do it which is not unusual because I had worked two other officers murders that and they usually said they don't fess up to it like to do on television there's some people here they don't do it all that quick so you sir you submit what's on TV is kind of a that's something similar to that yeah or you could have a something like Oliver Stone they say you were you'd anyway that's what I talked to him back and the fifth tenth and then after after the captain got back up there from here he had had the School Book Depository Superintendent to have a head count and Lee was the only one missing so him being a suspicious type and judge Brown was saying he wanted that he won't talk to him and then he got the address that they gave him which wasn't any good and when he got back to the office he started to send people out in different direction to look for him when somebody told him that the man I was talking to had a similar name so he came over and opened the door and asked me what his name was and I told him and then he asked off well I said what do you work and he said to school book depository so the captain said you the man I won't come with me so I lost my prisoner and I didn't talk with him I didn't I didn't interrogate him any further I spoke with him a time or two moving him back and forth but I never I never questioned him in further let me ask you about something that I have always heard and I would imagine you know the true story I've always heard that when captain fritz took him in to interview him there were some other people in there I think there was an FBI agent a Secret Service agent a postal inspector or whatever and one of them told me they never had a chance to ask a question that captain fritz took over and he didn't pass the questioning around that was the way I wasn't in there of course so I don't know why spent my time after he kidnapped my prisoner I am I didn't I spent my time building the case murder on Havel for ticket so I didn't I was not in the room with him I don't know what took place in there but I can assure you that he probably in the beginning handled the interrogation but to offset that a little bit I was in when any time at the federal office was in there and I know this Ralph Hall was here tonight I think he had been in and out of office somewhere during the time but when any of the federal agents was talking to him the captain had given orders to the men there that maybe one of one of our detectives in that office every time the federal for talking time so that wouldn't that didn't follow my lot see since I had was assigned the murder of tibbitt I spent all of my time interviewing witnesses holding show ups and getting making that case in fact the cap come back to me later on Friday afternoon and asked me how the investigation was going on on the tippet murder and I told him everything is falling into place pretty good and he said we'll make a good tight case so we can hold him without bond just in case we have problems with the presidential murder but everything was falling into place real good on my end of it and the captain further told me he says you know we gotta check to see if there's anybody else involved in this we don't know whether he's just a lone gunman or whether there's somebody else involved so this is a question that has come up last 43 years many times about the conspiracy angle being other people involved so we worked it from the standpoint that it might be a conspiracy we had to head to attend or the taught alternative so is conspiracy you don't buy the conspiracy theory no after a year to chasing them down I never any anything to any concrete evidence to that effect and I might have one or two friends here tonight a little different with me on that but I don't call any names but that I can see I'm sitting back over here so go ahead so they are they were gonna differ with me a little but that's all that's all right - I don't mind okay we'll go ahead who you gonna call whose whose name are you gonna call well she she's blond-headed sitting right back right over there Beverly all her I've known Beverly and I love her she's a good girl she's a little screwed up but that's alright we've got a little question not of a major in import but somebody writing a book looking for all the little details was Oswald and handcuffs all the time but when he went into the interrogation room do they take the cuffs off or or did you have been cosa oh yeah and I just got through saying I had very little to do with that because I've spent my time in ooh hate him well yeah when we when we I think one I don't remember tell you the truth I may have went up and got him out of jail once but other than the time I transferred him that moved him back to the cell one time that I can recall but of course handcuffs was only met that time and handcuffed in front of him but I would assume that they were I don't know I can't answer that question I and I don't want to testify to anything I didn't I don't know personally their lawyer was talking about handcuffs in those days it was pretty normal to handcuff your say are you to the prisoner right no unless it was some kind of a high-profile prisoner of somebody that had committed some kind of æneas murder or something like that we very seldom ever done that and then we put handcuffs on them and sometime leg irons but very I can't I can't even remember ever handcuffed and myself or anybody else being handcuffed to a prisoner transfer usually we we called on the Sheriff's Office to come and get him and the man it gave me that ticket he ain't doing much so he can come up and get them even heat into a whole lot of work down to Sheriff's Office so they sent him up here to pick him up okay let's talk about how did you end up being you got your fish back how did that happen that you know what now what you said while ago that captain Fritz came in and stole your fish from you not my fish my prisoner well I know but you called him your fish while ago never or never how the hell did you you're still in Paris you'd better come home down down you handcuffed how do I end up that you were the detective son that morning to take him to jail you know the reason I can give me for that I'd like to tell people what we call as a meanest and toughest sob down there but that's not the way it happened but the way the only thing that I can tell you is the captain died he he was just he assigned the murder of the president to himself and I had the murder of a tippet and we worked together on it because of the relationship and since the two of us had talked quite a bit back and forth I just feel my lot I guess to do it other than that I can't answer it well tell us about that morning you know what did you did you go to the cell to get him or they bring him down you know officer Dougherty and I went up and got him or that morning and brought him down and turned him over to the Cabinet Room talking to him and later let me back up a little bit explain something on Saturday evening I are the news people we want the word was out that they don't be transferred and the news people want to know what time and chief curry I heard him tell him that if you hear about 10 o'clock you won't miss anything so good sensible people would take that to mean they're not going to transfer them before 10:00 it'll be 10 or after now these conspiracy people they say we were given orders to transfer him at the strike of 10 o'clock but I don't think sensible people would understand what curry told them if you hear about 10 o'clock you won't miss anything that means if you hear but then it'll be some time after that so anyway we went we went up and got him brought him down capped otter and I said here again I'll take it back I was I didn't sit in there for a few minutes when that morning while they was talking and several of federal agents come in want to talk to him Kelly in the head of the Secret Service out of Washington DC had flown in and he wanted to talk to him before we transferred him and I'm sure there was an FBI agent there and inspector Holmes or the postal inspectors office came in and he want to talk to him so all of those people want to talk to him before we did the transfer now I said like I said I sit in there for a little while not very very long but the captain asked me if I wanted to would like a cup of coffee and I said sure so he and I walked across at a coffee shop at the white Plaza Hotel dying from City Hall and had coffee and discussed a transfer and there you go again you still clumsy on it all right well I tell you else you'd put you're making me whoever ends up here in the country okay so anyway she and I were over having coffee and when we started back got to the city hall it was Sunday and we won't couple in the first floor to catch the elevator being Sunday there wasn't nobody on the first floor and as we approached it later opened up and chief curry stepped out so the three of us backed up to the information desk and discussed the transfer at that time they had us moving him in an arm and motor vehicle and cap didn't think much of that and I didn't think a whole lot of it either but mainly because I think we had an open line to you people down there because when he something was decided in the office you could be somewhere and turn the volume up on the radio and there and went out I saw it looked like we was talking to the radio did you have an open line down there I was not in the basement I'm not talking about I'm Palmieri's your offer over to those radio station you know we were yeah we were hearing what was going on down there right yeah but I'm talking about somebody stool until you tell us what we're doing anyhow every time something was decided it went right out on the radio and because as soon as would come in that we've gone the powers-that-be it didn't have anything to do with me decided that they'd move him in an armored motor vehicle to save him because we'd had all kinds of threats ever since Friday that they were going taken away from us when we tried to transfer him and besides kill them they don't do the other things to him too I guess but anyway though I've heard him and so we had all of these threats we had many of them come in all anonymous of course and when this Harlan motor vehicle hit the airwaves and like I say it wasn't five minutes of somebody like yourself or somebody's on their side but they're going to transfer them in an armored motor vehicle well I don't know how it got out so fast but that's reading I thought you might have an open line over there but anyway the threats come in that they don't barricade the street turn that truck over and set it afire and I told episode if I got anything to do with that I don't particularly like being in that truck of burning so he said well he didn't either so uh and that was one of the things we discussed it we're drinking coffee so when we met with the chief in the first floor the cap reiterated his opposition to that truck and of course I offered my two cents which didn't amount to anything either so when I told the chief I said chief you know that that elevator stops on this floor and we can take him off on this floor put him in a Carl main street and wing be in the county jail before that anybody knows we've been left in his exact words were avail I have given them my word that they can film the transfer and I'm going to keep it because I don't want to think that we beat him up abused him i mistreated him in any way and the best way to do that is to let him film the transfer so well I could see where the chief was coming from well I sure wish she'd had taken an older Texas word one time and we went on it like that kind of look see we've got him transferred we too got him down to the court really got him convicted when he got the death penalty on him and we didn't had him down on death row then who knows he might still be there today with a field pending with the way things going I've been there 25 years yeah so it would have been unusual but anyway that's kind of the way that happened when I go back finish that up when I when he got back and the officers were through interrogating him I was told to handcuff myself to him and I also put another set of cuffs on his wrists and taking him down to the getting ready to move down I went first he wanted to put that dark sweater on that he had which I let him do and I told him when I was handcuffed at him I said League if anybody shoots at you I hope there's good a shot as you are mean and of course they'd hit him and me and he kind of laughed and he said well nobody's gonna be sure to get me I said well if they do you know what to do don't you he said well captain told me to follow you I'll do whatever you do that's well in that case you would be on the floor in a hurry but I had no idea how quickly that was going to happen so but when we got down to the basement and walked out into the parking area here again changes had been made and I didn't know about this for just a few minutes before we will start it out they couldn't get that armored loader down into the rod down into the basement because of our air-conditioning duct so they went they decided to do something else they decided to use that truck as a decoy so if anybody credit blockade the street and turn it over and set it afire that could be for no but they sent a car out of the basement the wrong way up the entrance ramp send it around the city hall to get in front and lead it on a wild goose chase more or less and so if it did try anything whether it would be for naught and we'd put them in a car and go on down like we wanted to another thing that the captain had pointed out to the chief earlier about that situation he said you know if they try to blockade the street or attack that truck they keep doing anything about it but in a car we spin it around in the middle of the street and go the other way so but but the chief was still heading out on his sending and transferring like they had agreed to whoever they were wouldn't bow to me but somebody higher than I am but anyway when I got to the basement with him that morning is similar to these lights here when the floodlights of the cameras come on is kind of blinding and I couldn't see anything for a minute but then after a short period I could see underneath the light Jack Ruby was standing Oh about as for me to Richard over here from me I guess or maybe not quite that far out in the middle of the driveway and he had the pistol at his side holding against his leg I could see that out of the corner of my eye just like I'm looking over at this people I can see what's happening over here I saw that in a flash and I knew exactly what was about to happen and I had him wrapped up close to me and I tried to pull him behind me but all I did was turn his body so instead of the bullet hitting him dead center to hit him about three or four inches to the left and the navel and up a couple inches higher and but he made that I went back and checked later by the cameras timing it and from the time of us they run it from the time I saw him standing with the pistol at his side until he pulled the trigger and it's just a little over one second like one thousand one one so he can't do too much in that length of time well now had that car that you were going to take him in then what ten feet back it would have blocked Oswalt walk worthy and most of the press well there again say they told me when I left up there that the car was gonna be part directly across the door leading into the hallway from the parking garage so all we would have to do it walked right into the back seat and set him down that wasn't the case it was over it was it was to our right and detective Charles Doherty was backing it up and he was literally pushing some people with the bumper trying to move him out of the way trying to get it into that position so you were right if it had have been where they told me it was going to be then the car would have been it would have blocked him from ever doing anything like that but that's another one of those things that happens what might have been at that car have been where they told you is going to be we wouldn't be sitting here than that you're right we would not and all of these conspiracy theories wouldn't be happening either yeah and I still I'm not lying I won't say these people live it if they ever come up with any solid conspiracy evident that a stand up in court that case is still open we can take it to the Grand Jury but you've got to give me something they'll believe I can't have another hog wash you know Jim I would think that there might be some questions here that some folks might want to ask you don't take a few questions well I can't answer one or two I guess all right anybody like to ask something you've got a walk-in microphone I think back here no okay walking microphone but somebody well maybe that's a camera he's got in his hand okay all right well you'll have to speak speak up I'm hard of hearing why don't you come up here to microphone ask me the question well he's got a mic there okay uh first of all thank you gentlemen for being here tonight I'm gonna switch over to you mr. Barker could you tell us a little bit about I've read your book but you tell us a little bit about your encounter when you were whispered in the air from the physician of parkland and broke the news shall we say in those days we used to pool broadcasts all the TV stations because it was just too expensive for everybody go out do their own and so we had a deal with channel 5 to cover everything in Fort Worth like the dinner before the thing that morning where they gave him a hat and all channel 5 was doing that and were all could pick that up if we wanted to the arrival at chat a lot of field channel 8 was designed to do that they were going to do the arrival and the departure and the luncheon at the trademart channel 4 was going to do so that was our pickup and I went out there really to you know put the thing on the air and make any remarks that had to be made etcetera and so I was up on the balcony of the Trade Mart and you know they were beginning to serve the the salads and this sort of thing and we had this big ole truck that was parked outside of where our cameras were running to and so one of our engineers called me on the headset and said something's happen the motorcade just went by here looks like it's going back to Love Field well they weren't they were going to parkland and by that time that I was getting from our guys who were in the parade know that there had been shots fired and so it was this a turmoil situation and I will I went on the air just to talk about anything that came to mind about why the president was there who was at the lunch and all of this kind of stuff and pretty soon and I was really you know this kind of had talked and told the same story several times and this doctor that I knew who was out at Parkland came up and tapped me on the shoulder and whispered meier and said Eddie he's dead and you know how do you know and he said I just called the or the ER and he was DOA and I felt that it was a good enough source that I put it on the air the doctor wanted to remain unknown and to this day I've never said who it was although there are a couple of doctors in town who have told patients at all they were the doctor but they they were not but it was just you know the luck of the draw that I signed myself to go out there that that day for that event and then all of our other guys Underwood Wes Huffaker all of they were scattered you know all over town and our radio people J Hogan of great old Ament in radio news was back taking care of everything in the in the radio newsroom but that's how it happened to be did you put that did you put his doctor's name in your book no well Jim you know he promised what did what did curry do he promised the press that he were going to show him right now and I promised this guy I would never reveal his name no he didn't want any publicity or whatever and so I just never did and frankly I don't know if he's still alive I you know felt some time I you know might try and look at a but it's better that some things are you know just remain as they were I agree with you our just putting your leg a little bit oh hi hi I would like to tell you what a great privilege it is to be with such a small group and to have the information from you gentlemen I did see the shooting live on TV we were in Temple Texas a few months later we came to Dallas and my husband was on the staff at Parkland so I sort of feel like we have a little more personal insight into it when I went to Europe for the first time in 1970 it was in Norway and I had a huge family over there and all they wanted to talk about was Kennedy it was still hot topic seven years later and apparently Truman Capote had published a book in Europe or a small pamphlet I don't know novella whatever and he was convinced and he published that Kennedy in fact was not dead that he was in a cooler in the top of Parkland Hospital and I couldn't convince my relatives the fact that I had just a little bit inside that he definitely was dead and I never read about this anyplace maybe I haven't read enough books about the conspiracy thoughts and so on so forth in fact was this true about Truman Capote did he put this out in Europe and how long did all this last and why was it never talked about here I didn't succeed in convincing him well that story about the being in the cooler there's been you know came out almost immediately afterward and I don't know how many conspiracy books have been written who would y'all say 300 simple access 2500 I'm sorry now that was it the other the so it was well known and I just missed it apparently until I got overseas right okay well excuse me sir I was gonna say there were all kinds of stories that were circulated all over the world I know after I did the Marina Oswald interview a French magazine and an Italian magazine both did big articles you know long on that interview and there was no doubt in my mind and no in Marina some mine that Lee Harvey had had shot the president so but yeah you know like judge Brown said another forty three years from now and people are still going to think about this conspiracy thing and it did not happen I wanted to come in one other things some years later Marina Oswald worked for me for a brief period of time and before she married mr. Porter my question is do we know anything about her where she is or her life is could you just briefly she lives in Rockwall and I talked to Ken Porter her husband not too long ago and interestingly enough on the 40th anniversary of the assassination I called I want to talk to her and maybe do some kind of an update and Ken got on the phone and we visited for a minute and I said could I talk to Marina and he said well she's not here you know I said well she'd be back shortly and he said well probably an old probably in about a month and I said where is she and he said she's going back to Russia missing her family over there and he said that they had that he had gone with her on three or four occasions since since then but she did want to be out of town on that 40th anniversary because you know whatever wanted to do something with her but she I'm sorry oh yeah well well I don't know I'd help you out a little bit that she actually lived in RAL live instead of rock wall but the reason she one of the reason she went back there to get her teeth fixed Kosar she had her teeth yeah well the last time I saw her she didn't have any at all really yeah but you know the reason she went back to you tell me what you you know just like me bringing up a bit about you guys in the in these steps ins and the deputy sheriff's with the fedoras and I think back to the time when I met marina Oswald's the night before we did this interview and all and to this day this is awful but what stands out about her smile is at tooth she had a tooth missing over there and to this day in it awful to remember somebody for their bad - are you good to say said oh well thank you you bet oh yes she worked there at the army/navy store I know my wife and I went in there yeah well the way she ended up working there the guys who own the store was a good friend of just porters yeah they were real good friends my two brothers was good friends of mine also yeah but she did others around it okay but she was up there for years oh yes you are I know one time I wife and I went miss in there and I didn't know she was working there and let me give you just a latest update Murphy how long has it been about a month and a half and we had talked with the Russian television crew about a month and a half ago they wanted to do an interview with her Russian television crew was over here which I did an interview with and they called her North laughs still got her phone number and everything but she didn't want to talk to me anymore but they called her and asked about doing an interview and she said she wasn't going to give interviews anymore because her husband was dying of cancer and she wasn't gonna do anything and that was about a month and a half ago that I had no I had another er done yeah but we didn't I didn't know what my wife said who's that woman look he was staring at you and I have no idea and all of a sudden she walks out then marina said don't you remember me I'm still have that accent mm-hmm we had a long long visit yeah she worked out there good a long one but those two boys inherited that from the mother our mother got her mother their mother owned the bit on that business and she got killed in a car wreck and they ended up with it so I've known him I've hunted and fished with him so and I've heard different stories about the daughters Rachel and Adele June June yeah and I I think one of them became a nurse didn't she the hide you don't recall what works for whom work one is married to a doctor okay well now one of the daughters I think was up in Kansas City or st. Louis or somewhere Louisville I was close I'm her Godfather okay nobody would stand up with her at the baptism I stood up and became her Godfather Richard's but both really at what church I'd be curious Greek Orthodox what's now out on ya okay for the information of you people that don't know who's talking over here Murphy Martin is a longtime correspondent for ABC he was a broadcasting from New York and I think maybe I don't know what when he came back with them but I've known Murphy for good many years and when he was on Channel 8 here for a long time giving the news and I can't keep up with him it's kind of like this one over here you never know where he's gonna be tomorrow but anyway he that's the reason that he knows quite a bit about it and he kept in touch with it but I myself and my wife have known Marina in fact with her husband Porter we have been out to dinner with them that surprises a lot of people that we have been out to dinner with Marina and her husband so we she don't over talk to me now because some conspiracy people got ahold of her and older that don't be given free interviews because you can charge for those things and talk to me about changing my story a little bit and I said lark ain't hard to do that so she kind of fell out with Nicole I wouldn't help her out because they trying to tell her all Lee didn't shoot anybody he would have passing well of course you know how how how that went over with me but and so anyway she after after I wouldn't change my story and she went on The Oprah Show and all this other stuff she won't talk to me now she when somebody asked her about you know one of my friends car not long ago and after said if you talk to Jim Laval lately he said no said he and Roberts on the same page and they're not on the page that I am so Robert is Lee's brother who incidentally is a friend of mine and so that catches people by surprise so well that doctor remember that English doctor that she got involved with headed head to lead exhumed and hit us yeah well he was an idiot too but that's all right yes I too thank you for sharing this a bit of history with us and thank you for coming to do this I have a question for mr. LaBelle when Lee Harvey was shot did you hear any exchange of words between he are Jack Ruby and how did you unhandcuff yourself did he go to the ground did you go with him could you describe a little bit after that moment of shooting for us know what she's asking is did Oliver say anything after he was shot yes he did he said oh and went down and that was the last words that I heard out of him and of course as he went down being handcuffed to him I had to lean down a little bit too so I reached I got our cult Jack Ruby by the shoulder and shoved back and down on him and at that time several officers had piled on top of her and crushed him to the floor um first or you first I don't that without who which one got off first probably man anyway so but anyway I did the cuffs was not taken off of him until we got him back in the jail office and detective bill kombis from the vice squad was standing right behind me so he and I picked him up and carried him into the jail office laid him down and I took my keys out of my pocket and gave them to Bill and this is incidentally is the handcuff key right here and gave it to him and told him to undo the cuffs a lot over the undone mine first or not I hope he undid buying first and then he took the other two data cuffs off and I brought both sets of cuffs in my pocket and then they happen to be an ambulance that was nearby and I think it had been on a call or finished a call or something and when the call went out for an ambulance that he was there in just a matter a few minutes and we put him on a stretcher and took him put him in the back of the ambulance and I crawled in there with him and we had we had a back in those days Southwestern Medical Institute out at Parkland had agreed to furnish the city a third-year medical student down at the City Hall on Saturdays and Sundays to take care of any minor problems might happen in the jail and so forth and so that bearden doff was there and he was there immediately because he's standing in the basement watching all the procedures so he was there immediately and started working on him and when it got the stretcher we put him on it loaded him in the ambulance I crawled in there beside him and held onto his wrist trying to find a pulse all the way to Parkland and I never did detect one about halfway out there he groaned a little bit and moved his arms and then this went completely limp like that and I've always thought that that's when he passed away but they worked on him at Portland for some time and I finally declared him dead at 1:07 p.m. on the 24th of July November 1963 if that answered your question yes thank you very much thank you for having this program I'm really enjoying it I was a very little girl when this happened but not the firm that I worked for recently moved downtown and at lunchtime every day I walk outside and I've been looking for that basement where you were is that still there yeah the basement still there it's kind of hard to move a basement so it's still there it cannot be visited or well they have got it locked out right now and certain cases they they can get down there and I've been fortunate enough to or unfortunate enough when people come in and want to go down there I don't know whether out or say this or not but anyway they have granted me permission to go into the basement whenever I want to so but yeah you can get in there if you get permission from the people up there they'll you can get in it they weren't ape-like any kind of loot mark no no no there's nothing that there's nothing there to denote what it is so it's just but to answer your question you can get in there and know the basement haven't been moved into where it's still where it was thank you for your candor I really appreciate the fact that you're able to speak from your heart about what you feel about what happened that night that day I'm a nephew of JD Tippit and I remember my mom was taking me back to school from lunch and we heard on the radio that the president had been mortally wounded an officer had been killed and my mom was there that it said surely not JD and of course about 30 minutes after grad school my neighbor came and got me and mom was in the backyard hanging up clothes crying and the Thanksgivings have been different for our family ever since and it has been difficult I do have one statement I was in Europe in 68 and I got in big trouble every time they found that word from Dallas they would say Kennedy bang bang and I started saying Hitler gas gas in Germany because I didn't shoot anybody and I was just from Dallas and and I was told to be quiet eventually because that was a little inflammatory I do have a question though and it never occurred to me because haven't thought about this a lot Jim and I spent some time as a police officer in Louisville and for Dallas Sheriff's Office but how much did it hurt you that he never Lee Harvey Oswald never had to stand trial and the evidence that you compiled never was able to be presented in a court of law and for him to have a conviction how much did that hurt well it didn't hurt me but I was disappointed that we were not able to do that because had we been able to go to trial I think we could convince even the deepest skeptics that there wasn't no conspiracy but since we didn't get to do that by it was disappointing but as for hurting me and didn't a lot of me it was just another murder case as far as I'm concerned of course the president's as important individual but the other wiser than being disappointed about it not being able to get the evidence before the courts and eventually the public so everybody would know exactly what happened one time I was talking to a school down in San Antonio think there's about 400 or something students in there in it in one young lady and they had a walking microphone among the students one young lady asked me after I got to explaining that she said well mr. LaBelle if you had all of that evidence how come why didn't you go ahead and try him I said well since he was already dead I didn't think they were much useful trying because I didn't think we could do anything more to him so we didn't bother trying him and after that well I found out the next day that from the teachers that those other kids really took that young lady high over that over that question but we would have I think we would have been able to explain it very well Hadley had we got to go to court see the thing is he's innocent today he's never been convicted so was Jack Ruby we tried him got a conviction and a quarter of Criminal Appeals overturned it and sent it back for retrial and we had it rescheduled for February of 1967 and then and he died of cancer and their report of January of 1967 so we never did get him retried so in essence he's innocent - the ruby trial was an experienced one well yes it was it had its moments I might say well I'm saying about member will know them bill right and the psychomotor epilepsy you know I don't know that motorcycle epilepsy or whatever it is he come up with out it was lame or something anyway if I may interject I want to thank you all so very much for coming the program tonight is not completely over I want again to thank you but I want to also thank us because for showing the remarkable stories and so this is just the very beginning of I hope a great series I hope I'll see many of you back here some of you are new faces to me some of you are not even though I'm still failing you to Dallas but I hope this will become a reunion I've had some remarks hello I haven't seen you in such a long time so I hope that you'll come back and I'm immensely grateful to mr. Barker and to mr. Lavelle and judge Brown and as our token of our appreciation from the sixth floor Museum

Channel: SixthFloorMuseum

Views: 57,796

Keywords: JFK, Assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald, Dallas police, 1963, John F. Kennedy, President John F. Kennedy, Jim Leavelle, Leavelle, Texas, Living History, Jack Ruby

Id: r07uTkrcDyY

Length: 62min 31sec (3751 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 27 2013