A Conversation with J I Packer & Mark Jones

in the forward to the book that you wrote graciously for me I was struck by how you ask questions of the reader and one of the questions is how do we cultivate our in the presence of God you have any further thoughts on that this has become increasingly a concern of mine as I've got older I've been a Christian now for more than more than seventeen years and the sense of God's greatness and of my own comparative smallness has I think I can truly say in deepening all along throughout that throughout that time and it's expressed itself more and more in what I make call I think though it sounds rather presumptuous to use the phrase straightforward worship where whereby you run through your mind the great glorious truths about God which always strike me as wonderful which always make me want to express thanks and celebration that slowly I think over the years has been coming big been becoming more and more a habit and it's a habit that I try to lead other people into one way in which one can one can put the idea into people's minds although it's a bit risky is to ask them to just think for the moment of how one feels when one contemplates another person with the thought this person is beautiful lovely magnificent but whichever whatever adjective you use the thought that this really is a supreme person makes you want to express admiration and then I say well it's comparable to that when well for me at least when I worship God thinking about the great and the glorious things that are true of God and that are true of the Lord Jesus I think about these things and they make me want to say thank you Lord and Lord you are wonderful it becomes not a single sentence but a line of a line of thought and you praise the Lord it's it's a very scriptural thing to do and it's an activity that I fear few of us know very much about praising God thanking God adoring God and I'm not claiming that I've got very far with it but I'm thankful to say that and it a bit further at least along the line than I was when I became a Christian 70 years ago I'm so glad you touched on the worship aspect because I think we're perhaps them that the church today is as failed is I begin in the corporates the public worship where I think a lot of Christians don't get that sense of majesty and awe and true awesomeness as the word should be used in corporate worship so developing that privately becomes almost an impossible task and so I've always found that you know God has intended to have the corporate public worship of his people to be the the backbone of our private Christian life do you find that that has also been the case for you I want this to be the standout emphasis in our worship services and I become aware that the worship services of which in which I'm taking part are focusing on something different constantly it's me you see what I mean the focus of the activity is giving me fresh heart hearty singing because hearty singing does me good the casual style of public prayer because the casual style of speech does me good I like it yes but there should be more in worships and things that we like they are being practiced in a way that is skewed because it's man centered but you don't get all until you've begun to cultivate the sense that God is very great and you were very small and I find that generally missing in modern worship when I spoke to publish shirt banner of truth about my idea of writing knowing Christ he was interested but he also warned me that books about our Savior do not sell well and that was very sad in one respect for me as a pastor as a Christian as to it why would people not want to read about Christ why do you think that is I think there are two reasons at least reason number one is that because we are all sinners and in that sense twisted in terms of what we should be thinking about we spend our time thinking about ourselves and being in that sense man centered by habit when we oughta be god centered I had it and to be thinking about well really all the issues of life in terms of God and the perspective that spelled out for us in the scriptures the other factor I think that operates is that people nowadays are not encouraged to think systematically and at length about anything or anybody our culture encourages us all to have butterfly minds flitting from one thought to another without going deep into anything you yourself said earlier in this conversation so truly that Tim people nowadays don't have time don't make time don't spend time don't desire time on their own what they all what with what they want is always to have something going on that will catch their attention and in that sense entertain them lead them along somewhere without them having to how shall I say chart their own course and we don't challenge each other very much - stop being self-centered butterfly minded 21st century men and women and we ought to be positively challenging ourselves to be Christ focused Trinity focused grace focus glory focused all habits including this habit get formed as one does over and over again the action which is of the essence of the habit and the reason that these good habits so not being formed and all Christian hearts nowadays is quite simply that we are not even trying to form them and the the one of the interesting things that I've I've noticed is even in terms of books that people that gravitate towards you know a book on marriage a book on parenting and some aren't some are very good but there's so much in Christology that is so beneficial for my marriage for how I relate to people you know people are looking for practical books how to this and that and yet I think you know could there be anything more practical than knowing God knowing Christ for these practical issues I think we missed that we kind of think this is just theoretical Christology but it's actually immensely practical for how are we going to live day to day knowing that he was prepared to be humbled in every conceivable way is there any room for pride in my own life one of the things mark that Tim I think you've done beautifully again and again in this book knowing Christ is to encourage looking towards the Lord Jesus watching him in action focusing on the Gospels because they show him in action and drawing significant thoughts out of the action and the words that went with it significant thoughts I mean for one's own meditation for instance I'm just thinking there was the occasion when jesus told his disciples foxes have holes birds of the air have nests the son of but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head that's so vivid how could you suggest that one makes a significant meditation starting from that verse yeah and I've read it I don't know how many times in my life but it was in the context of the book really you know having written a chapter on Christ's divinity who made the foxes who made the birds the person who says he has nowhere to lay his head is the one who has created the heavens and the earth the one who has a right to every palace every hotel so to speak every mansion to just think about Christ in terms of everything that the scriptures say about him and then to come to that verse knowing that he's the one who upholds all things by the power of his word he actually said that and meant it and it was true that he had nowhere to lay his head whatever problems I may have with my possessions life if I can remember that the son of man who died for my sins but at the same time made the heavens and the earth at one point in his life had nowhere to lay his head my penchant for complaining should really be put in check as you know I've spent a little bit of time reading the Puritans especially John Owen and Thomas Goodwin and I would come across truths here and there and in other places scattered throughout their writings and I thought it's not fair that I should have access to these truths and people in my church should be ignorant of them now what are the chances they're going to read 16 volumes of John Owen they're very little so as I came to understand some of these truths coming out through these writers I thought I need to get these concepts into the hands of people in my church my wife lady's book studies teenagers I need them to know some of these truths that I know because my whole life has been revolutionized by how Christ is compassionate towards me as a high priest what it will mean to see him face to face as a man ceases neighbor were the words of John oh and so we shall see Christ I felt really a burning desire to be able to convey these truths to the church and and if that's the last book I ever write I will actually be quite content if I know that someone in in in God's church has come to know Christ better and love him more I say straight out I I hope that your book does make that impact on many many people and revolutionize yes revolutionize their lives I think it's a proper prayer for all of us to ask the Lord Jesus to make us more aware of his presence with us than ever we've been as yet that's another way in which it seems to me that your book can become a channel of great blessing to lots of people if it encourages them to make more of the thought of Jesus with me then they've made thus phone you

Channel: Banner of Truth

Views: 32,927

Rating: 4.9498606 out of 5

Keywords: Awe, Christian Meditation, Christology, Knowing God, Knowing Christ

Id: wNP9UWTQrLo

Length: 16min 13sec (973 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 09 2016