A Conversation: Howard Zinn and Woody Harrelson

oh yeah like even when I was coming over here you know we took the subway there's just flags all on every subway train you know flags everywhere always when we're ready to was that what you're pointing to them I'm Woody Harrelson and I'm sitting here with Howard Zinn and I have to say Howard that I have very few heroes and you're one of my great heroes and it's a real privilege and an honor to be sitting here with you I know you've been speaking out about the government and what they've been doing in the foreign policy for many years and thank you so much for taking the time having this conversation that's great moment for me woody yeah yeah I've been looking forward to this ever since I discovered you I called it white men can jump right I couldn't tell from white man can't shop what you abused word about him and you could tell I was leaning a little bit to the left can you you're getting things through the basket which gave me a good I have gotten to meet like you know some people who I really admired Jack Nicholson and Brando and hang out with different people over the years Paul McCartney but I need to meet you is really I'm meeting it one of my true heroes and um it's a real honor to be here with you Howard Wow I'm glad to be associated with Marlon Brando jacket and and so I have to now have to say something nice about you right there it is I'm not going to say anything nice about you I'm just going to say why I was excited to come here and finally meet you and spend time with you and talk with you and that is that I got in the movies a lot my wife and I go to the movies a lot we see a lot of bad movies and all we saw white men can't jump we both absolutely knocked out and you know it was a great movie yeah and you know you were pretty good in and and and then saw you and a couple of other things but okay so you were another good actor interesting actor but then more but I had no idea that you were a person who was interested in the world you know they're actors who don't seem to be interested in the world you don't never hear anything from them about what's going on you know these they're interviewed on TV and all they do is talk about the movies they're in and and then I how did I know this I saw an article that appeared on the Internet the way things magically appear an article that you had written for The Guardian of London you apparently were in London doing a play and you're dis article for The Guardian about the war going on and I read that I said wow this guy is interested in the world he's interested in war interesting piece is a wonderful article and so that gave me a you know wholly new idea about you and then I don't know how it happened we started communicating by email and yeah I think Barbara was conduit really yeah yeah there was some interest yeah there's some kind person who put us together and so it's it's a pleasure for me right well I know it's been quite a number of decades that you've been speaking out about the American practices of going to war for whatever reasons they tend to go to war for which tends to be land and resources and so forth but so you know for me my first introduction to you was back in the bush war one eye on the face of it I saw that it was unjust and I went to UCLA at the time and I anyway there were cameras and so I said I thought it was a crazy thing and it really received quite a lot of negative reaction and of course that only made me want to find out more about what I was talking about and I read people's history of the United States and you know I thought that the United States maybe had just more or less recently gone off track or you know been kind of co-opted by these forces what I didn't realize is that from the very beginning from when Columbus met the aero-x there was it was just non-stop violence and and just taking over their bullying people and taking over their resources and so so most people don't really understand about the history of what has gone down I think people's history of the United States should be required reading and every you know every high school well I'm sure they're all listening to you tomorrow it will be required reading it is used in a lot of high schools and colleges used and it's interesting it started out when it first came out which was like 20 years ago that's how old this book is you know and started out it was like an underground book in high schools you know because high schools are totalitarian places in high schools you know teachers are watched carefully what do you do what do you use what textbook you know so my book that they couldn't really use my book officially they would sort of photocopy parts of it it was like you know what they used to do in Russia with the underground some is that they used to call it and but over the years it's become more and more I hate to say that word respectable acceptable even though I haven't changed it I haven't made it more respectable it has the say my ideas but and so now it's used a lot in high school that which I'm glad to see cuz young people yeah and you know that what you just said is what I hear again and again no other people a lot of people are surprised when they go into history of the United States cuz yeah just like you said they think well this is bad and sometimes they use the word aberration they say oh this is unusual this is different you know this is not the way we usually are we're really the good guys well that's if they knew our history they wouldn't they wouldn't say that but you know people are reluctant to accept the fact that we have not been the good guys of the world people don't want to think that I didn't want to think that I didn't want to think that I wanted to think United States's you know we're the Boy Scouts of the world you know we help countries across the street you know whatever Boy Scouts do you know that's what I thought and and it's only when I started to read history that I realize now this goes way back the drive to conquer to expand to control and when you know that history if you know that history you're not going to be deceived as easily because if you don't know the history it's as if you were born yesterday if you were born yesterday the president gets up there in front of the microphone and says we've got to go to war for freedom for democracy and if you don't know the history oh he's the president he knows you know but you know like you said when you go into history it makes you see what's going on today in a different perspective now most people know I think well that's actually question I when I ask you to because like most people I think are kind of where that this is an oil war certainly around the world people understand that which it's interesting when you say oil war you kind of you're you're stating the top two industries in reverse order but so I just wanted to ask you but not being aware of the roots of it you know they don't see like for example one of the things that really pissed me off was when I heard George Bush the elder as they call him say something to the effect after Bush war one that we that the United States had been redeemed had redeemed Vietnam do you remember him making a statement like that yeah the data found really really hard to swallow because like most people don't know that two million people were killed in Vietnam and they don't know the 4.5 million people were killed in Korea either mostly civilians so what's your take on that kind of thing know what's interesting about Bush saying that because you know they talked about and which talked about the Vietnam syndrome the Vietnam they use that expression the Vietnam syndrome syndrome is something you used to describe a sickness you know okay they I did syndrome a sickness and what do they mean by that they meant that the Vietnam was a time when people in the United States organized themselves into a movement and a movement of protest and movement which they began to question the policies of the United States and the whole and ever since the end of the Vietnam War let's say 75 the United States got out in 73 the war ended of 75 ever since then the United States has been trying to get rid of the this sickness to get rid of the Vietnam syndrome in other words the Vietnam gave war a bad name in the idea was we must give war a good name again and so this as you call it Bush war one I like that wish war one okay we're going to try to stop it at two right we're not going to have more than two I hope but but I know but when when bush war one was finished Isis distinctly remember Bush getting up for television cameras and saying and this is almost his exact words probably the most poetic statement he ever uttered said the specter of Vietnam is buried forever in the sands of the Arabian Peninsula that's pretty good the savvy the specter of Vietnam buried forever that's what they're hoping hoping that people will not think about Vietnam do you know what they want people think about they want people think about World War two they want because World War two I mean that here we go into the history of talking about World War one gave war a bad name World War one was the war that after even people who had supported the war after world World War one they said what in the world were we doing ten million men died on the battlefields in World War one at the end of it nobody knew why the war was fought so and you know after the World War one a Hemingway does Passos other writers were writing you know All Quiet on the Western Front all of that so war had a bad name world war ii gave war good name hitler we're fighting against fascism and so on and then vietnam comes along gives war a bad name so what do we have to do now if we want to fight another war we don't want people to think about vietnam by we i mean the administration i don't like to really say we but you know no we don't want people think about vietnam we want them to think about world war ii the good war skipped vietnam in fact if you go and see what kids are learning in schools that learning much about Vietnam and the movies that they're showing on television so on a lot of them are about the heroism of World War two d-day the hundred and first Airborne Saving Private Ryan and the whole idea I believe is to take the the good war and connect it with all these bad ugly wars that we have been fighting recently I think that's the idea that means you know that trying to obliterate a piece of history that trying to obliterate Vietnam well I mean not to mention Korean gore Vidal talks about the 200 other armed conflicts that we've been involved in between now and then I mean Korea is like the Forgotten War when people people know very little about the Korean War like came and went although it lasted three years and we don't know how maybe three million people died almost all Koreans I mean 56,000 Americans I about three million Koreans died but it's like a you know it's forgotten yeah the book I read said 4.5 million 3/4 civilian died in Korea yeah so but anyway by the way three million 4.5 you can't even get your mind around it so horrible yeah that's interesting when you get it to those numbers it's interesting how Oh a million here amid yeah it's amazing isn't it that you know what's a million people do 3 million because it doesn't really matter huge huge number of people well that's the thing that really breaks my heart about what's I can't really dignify it by calling it a war because you have to have two sides combating each other and let's say this recent bombing campaign I you know I I know that one of the things that I read that you said you quoted Colin Powell who said that in the first as we say Bush world hunt a they asked him you know how many American dead and he had a figure and then there's some how many Iraqi dead and he says that's not something I'm terribly interested in and I wonder is that mentality I mean I understand that from a military man or even from our government but is that mentality kind of pervading the our whole culture all all of the people in our society do you think that's the problem because I don't believe the people naturally don't care about other people dying I mean I think Americans if they hear about other people dying they care about it but then I told about it they're not then given any well just like you said about Colin Powell he's not interested in that the Pentagon never gave out figures on how many Iraqis how many people died in Iraq how many people died in Afghanistan how many people died in the first Gulf War which is what Colin Powell was talking about at that time the the government that the Pentagon doesn't tell people about it the newspapers don't tell people about it I distinctly remember that exactly when the first Gulf War ended I mean that very week in 1991 I was in an airport and I picked up cup actually I had I confess I didn't pick up copies well I picked him up I didn't buy them you know I you know the airport you go in you pick up something you read it right you don't pay for it and so I didn't want to pay for a news and Newsweek and time but I wanted it was a big you know the front cover was victory great victory no but I was interested I looked through each one I had time and my plane wasn't coming I had time to look through time and Newsweek about a hundred pages in each on the war I looked to see if they had any report on how many Iraqi casualties there were it was nothing nothing so with that you know what you're saying it's not a surprise that the American people are simply not aware it's like these people are invisible and but I I feel that the job of our job I didn't know the people people who are concerned in the world the job is to make invisible people visible you know and you know and I think of invisibility you know I think back to Ralph Ellison Invisible Man I think black people being invisible and what happened in the south was that the black people who created the movement in the south and suddenly created a commotion in the country they made black people visible to the country and before that in a certain sense two white people in the country black people were invisible and I think today with the war I think we have the same problem we have to make visible these other human beings who had died Americans died and other people died and I don't think you know that I think American people are normally naturally compassionate people just that the media and the government don't tell them anything about that you know on the subject of the media you know obviously it's been very anesthetized and cleaned up and even what used to be a fairly progressive channel CNN once it was sold by Turner has become another mouth you know the party speaks to it and so I wonder like in England at least even though that has government I would not necessarily prove up in there their foreign policies kind of word this with a child of their foreign policy so it's not surprising like you know I know when the pilgrims first came over they started doing the same that they'd learn from their government which is we're going to you know burn the crops and rape and kill and pillage and take their land but at least in England you have the Guardian and you have you have some progressive media where those people in England there's no way Tony Blair is going to be reelected because he did something they know what's going on they also saw the pictures the BBC showed them images of what was going on in Iraq now in the United States we simply don't have that other than you know you know free speech TV and democracy now and gorilla news network and a few of these other mostly Internet and sources so what I'm curious about is how do we do that I mean how do we what is the role of progressive meeting and how does the the progressive media that exists in this country get the word out and put a face to the inhumanity that's going on in the name of you know freedom and democracy no it's a it's a big big question it's not easy because what you say is you know it's absolutely true of it you know we we don't have a major newspaper like The Guardian of London which is read by lots and lots of people and we just don't have that we have you know community newspapers underground newspapers week we have periodicals you know like you know the nation the progressive in these times the magazine we have periodicals with relatively small circulations you know they don't have the clout of Time and Newsweek and and so on it's you know it's a it's a great problem what you say about the gap between the people in England getting information and and therefore having a certain view of this war as opposed to tony blair who goes along with whatever this government does that's what happens in the rest of Europe and in the rest of the world and so would you if you go back to February 15th when all those demonstrations took place all over the world it was obvious every everybody in the world except he knew that this war was wrong everybody in every country and why did they know these things and Americans did not know these things at least 65% to 70% of Americans the ones who said they supported what the one reason I can think of is the one you talked about and that is those people out there they're not watching CNN they want not watching Fox News they have alternative sources of information so that suggests that you know our job is how do we get information to people and so we have these you know we have this alternative radio alternative cable networks we have I don't know this thing that we are on now right what neighborhood news network right this community access cable we have Plymouth stations like this around the country which are reaching people we have democracy now we have pacifica stations four or five pacifica stations on the country we have alternative radio out of Boulder Colorado with this guy David buss ami Ani he yeah he he records these very good things that that are being said the speech and he puts them on a satellite and he sends them to radio stations around the country and you know a bunch of them pick them up so you know there's no magic way to solve the problem of a dominated controlled media it's just a matter of being persistent and constantly expanding your listenership in your radio ship radio ship like that and can constantly expanding that and having a kind of faith that if you just persist in telling people the truth persist in giving people information that they don't have that it will make its way make its way because that's what happened during Vietnam War where also in other major media during it was supported the war though they did not lead the charge against the war they came in late a movement right but they did respond when people came out in protests exactly whereas when people were protesting in this country they didn't really there was no hardly any mention of it it's more controlled today it's true it's more controlled today than it was then but this is the process that the went on then I think can still go on today in a process that went on then was that more and more information got out to people about the what was happening in Vietnam and and as more and more information got out to them as they learned about the malai massacre they learned about what was happening over there and they turned against the war and I think I don't know I don't you see this already happening now that don't you see I mean you look at the even the New York Times reports the front page Bush support slipping like it's going below the 50% mark and that's been going steadily down for the last few months and don't you feel that there's a way in which more and more people in this country are beginning to catch on to what is happening I I think you're right but I think they're also kind of catching on to like for example the stuff about Joe Wilson and and the fact that we they haven't found weapons of mass destruction which really puzzles me you know like these guys are pretty smart let's face it you know I may not agree with them but they're very smart very crept the Wolfowitz Rumsfeld Bush and Richard Perle you know these are smart men nobody thought like plants and weapons of mass destruction oh yeah and and you know I'm sure it'll happen before October of next year I mean within a year we're gonna find them I promise well do you think well yeah it's I agree with you it I'm surprised that it hasn't happened already I mean it's so easy to do I mean I could do it myself you could do he'd go over there we could plan something it's but I don't know why they haven't done accept it maybe they were about being found out there's in order to do it I have to enlist people as soon as you involve more than one person in a crime you're always taking the chance that somebody will spill the beans ah well oh why you're on that to me now that guy in England I can't remember his name they said he committed suicide okay yeah was the scientist yeah erica was that high I forgot his name well anyway it's very unusual story in the sense that he's obviously the guy who started the ball rolling with people being aware that them saying that they had that the United or that Iraq was getting plutonium from Nigeria he was he was the guy who started to apprise people that that wasn't the case right I think he was the first guy and then mysteriously he dies he commits suicide no I wanted to ask you this because you know I figure if anybody has a read on it you do so you think he actually look you know that I'd I don't look at you necessarily as being like you know I'm impotent but good here's close to God for me as the guy's gonna get so but let me ask you what do you think happened with that guy did he commit suicide I have no idea I mean you didn't think that was odd it's odd a lot of odd things happen in this you know well he walked three kilometers and he took a nice brisk walk before he committed suicide out in the woods and he'd also been talking on the phone earlier about a trip he was going to take back to Iraq to help I guess prove his point I don't think he committed suicide but uh well you you you have a more than Vesta Gate of mind I do believe you I know I have a conspiratorial mind but I'm going on the other hand there's a lot of conspirators are there are a lot of conspiracies so I mean what you say is possible but it's just that if somebody asked me you know do you really know no it's possible it's possible who knows yeah but do that yeah what no I'm just going to say but I know one problem we have is not getting sidetracked right you know from the main issue you know what I mean and going off into well did he do this did they do this that yeah you know because the nein yeah yeah because it's like what's happening now with the business of the leak you know getting all and you know we're son how the media all concentrated all on the leak you know what sure it's interesting and an important in the sense of the Bush administration you know is up to no good but there's a way in which somehow something happens in all the headlines and all the news stories suddenly a fasten on that and and the real issue is what goes behind that goes genocide and yeah the war itself you know and not this particular thing or that particular thing which we can no no way they'd like us to just focus on this one thing but to get back to the the big lie the big liberty another big lie behind all the weapons of mass certainly the big lie was that Iraq was an imminent threat to you know to the United States and therefore you know we had to go to war in fact it's interesting the way Bush responded to this new report that just came out by this government team that investigated for three months and can't find any weapons of mass destruction will will Bush and his advisers I assume it's his advisers rather than Bush right this they're not going to be daunted by the fact that they couldn't find weapons of mass destruction the bush comes out and says well they were planning to have weapons of mass destruction they were a threat to the world which is interesting considering fact that the world did not see Iraq as a threat the threat to the world but the world and not see Iraq as a threat only Bush and Wolfowitz and Shane he let you know then they only saw there's a threat not because it was a threat but because it was useful to see it as a threat but I think we're going to get a lot of diversions along the way yeah and problem is getting back to you know and getting back not just to this particular war but getting back to the general policy of the administration of war expansion sending troops and planes all over the world controlling more and more of the world becoming what they're speaking about more and more frankly an imperial power because to say becoming an imperial imperial power is wrong because we've been an imperial power but now they're they candid about it very blatant about yes we're an imperial power and we like it now I'm confused so when you're talking about imperialism I'm confused by the fact that a Wolfowitz made the statement at the Asian summit you know they asked him point-blank the other people there they said now why didn't you go after North Korea you know has weapons of mass destruction and instead you went after Iraq and he said the ant you know the exactly what did he said he talked about oil he said yeah he said the answer is obvious they're swimming in a sea of oil right right so he admits that it's an oil world yeah and Wolfowitz also made the admission that the weapons of mass destruction thing was the thing they all kind of thought about and came up with as the best thing to rally the troops not that he was real right but rally the troops meeting rally the people behind you know because everybody's afraid of a nuclear bomb he made those two admissions they appeared everywhere around the world everywhere and they still did not appear that you never hear that in the mainstream meaning no so I think that the the mainstream media here like for example Nazi Germany back in the 30s you know and the Hitler's rise there's no way that Hitler could have done what he did without the influence of the medium and I feel now that the media here has complicity in in really in genocide and in the this perpetuation of the war on terrorism so I don't know I mean I don't know what you think yeah you know but it's it's interesting wolf that Wolfowitz and sometimes pearl and sometimes they will make statements which are which are which tell the truth yeah yes it's oil no it isn't as you say weapons of mass destruction he said it was something like oh is a bureaucratic decision or something like that delay yeah I wasn't real it wasn't really weapons of mass destruction they make these statements and you say as you say they're reported around the world they're not reported in the American media they're not played up in the American media they're sort of very often you have to look in the inside pages or or they're buried and the lower paragraphs of stories or they don't appear at all but I that's our job yeah our job is to look for these things I think reading the foreign press is very important you know it's likely and the internet now this goes back to the question you asked about you know what can we do about this the internet now it's to the Internet they're probably you know half the people in the country don't have access to the Internet and they don't have computers and so on but even the 50% of people in country have a into Internet is a wonderful way of bypassing the major media without the internet we could not have had mass demonstrations all over all over the world on one particular day right and so the the internet and email and all these are ways of getting information around to people which the major media won't report and and I do believe it's beginning to have an effect yeah and you know I like your optimum well I didn't know you you can no we'll base things very often on very little evidence right like well this big evidence big evidence like the polls ok Bush has gone down below 50% those little pieces of evidence - I was talking to the plumber who came around to fix a leaky faucet right because I don't know how to fix a leaky faucet the plumber comes around to fix a leaky faucet this this plumber we know the years very silent person just comes does his job doesn't want to talk this time he stops and he talks and he's angry it's angry because he just read that the Bush administration is spending a decent once eighty seven billion dollars for the war he's saying hey what about things that we need he said I don't have health insurance you know and I'm thinking how many people are there like that you know the guy in my local post office the other day I walk in and just out of the blue he says I discovered he was also very quiet for a while but you know I got to you know I saw him again again never said a word and then one one day he says oh I noticed there's something wrong with his arm and he said I was in Vietnam I said these these guys in Washington these old guys in Washington are sending young kids to war like me I was 17 says you know they're deceiving us all so these are I mean this is as I say tiny pieces of evidence but what would it suggests to me that I think little and these guys this plumber the post office guy they're not reading the Nation magazine I don't they don't go on the Internet but somehow you know the reality of what's happening is beginning to come through to them and my business man you're Bob Morgan for years we've had a good relationship but a contentious relationship when it comes to talking about George Bush or anything you know he's a pretty definite Republican and conservative and that's good that's who I want manage my money because god knows you know I need someone pulling back the reins but always these disagreements you know like I mean I don't can't tell you how many times I've sat and exasperated like just dumbfounded how they you know there's no getting through and he calls me well about a month ago he says woody but he says you were right he finally shifted like recently he says you've been right all along all that stuff you've been saying it's absolutely right I was I was amazed because I thought now if he shifts and anybody could shift and if you love this easy manager get shipped no it's true because that mentality is so strongly entrenched and it really is representative of kind of the you know everybody wants to believe in their government I mean didn't we all grow up kind of putting our hand over our heart and you know singing the star-spangled banner excuse me what I think it's interesting that he's suddenly you hear from him and and suddenly he's changed his mind and what that says to me is that you talk to people who have different points of view you talk to him you talk to them over the years maybe and you think you're not getting anywhere you don't see any change you know and then one day something happens and what it suggests to me is that we should never stop talking to people you know I mean no matter how futile it seems at the moment because you never convert people to a different way of thinking you never change their mind you never make them you'd never do it at the moment you never see immediate results right you say can't change no no but but if you don't give up if you persist in expressing yourself when you and you do it in a way that isn't hostile but but the people may go back and think about it and think about it and then a week later or a month later a year later something will happen well that makes me think you know I read your book you can't stay neutral on a moving train and I remember it because you you were at Spelman College right and that yeah I think that's where your activism really started with the civil rights movement right well that's where yeah that's probably yeah that's probably say that that's not necessarily true well no I must I write I mustn't contradict you right no he's no Academy Bailey I'm gonna do what everybody else does I'm gonna contradict you but no that's probably probably the most important beginning of my activism you know I was active when I was 18 and I was a shipyard worker and I was helping organize other young workers in the shipyard you know so I was sort of I was I was active then but it's true that my real first important involvement in activity was in the South where I went to teach am i my and my wife and kids moved down south I and to Atlanta and I taught at Spelman College which is a black woman's college they called it a Negro College time and we were there for seven years between 1956 and 1963 and those were the years or the you know the movement and so yeah I became involved my wife became in a while couldn't not be involved in other words here I was teaching about democracy do you think about the American history teaching about Liberty and teaching all these things it's like he was saying about putting your hand over your heart eating all those things about America you know teaching about these things how could I just continue just staying in the classroom while my students were going out into the city and they were sitting in and they were getting arrested and they were protesting and they were boycotting so no there was no way that I could in good conscience stay out of that so yeah I became involved and it was the greatest educational experience of my life yeah I mean you know my I learned a lot more for my students than my students learned for me I'm sure in those seven years you know and you know I became involved with snick I was the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee which is these young people mostly black kids young people who worked in the most dangerous places in the south and Mississippi in southwest Georgia and Alabama Louisiana and they they they worked for $10 a week you know that's what they got from their this organization and they they got in with got to know people and lived in people's homes and met in churches and they faced the police and they went through all sorts of it I became involved with them and began to write about them and to participate with them and it was as I say the most educational experience of my life yeah what made me think about that was a year I remember you saying in the book because people didn't really hear about what does your students were doing and other people were doing in Atlanta in other areas of the south and the late 50s I mean people heard of Rosa Parks and what was going on Martin Luther King and a lot of the people around him but they didn't really hear all of the stuff that built up and added up to finally the movement you know taking off you know and it seems to me like that's what it was the groundswell came from all those little acts along the way yeah yeah exactly it's interesting but because what you described is exactly the way you know the civil rights movement is described oh there's Rosa Parks you know there was a Montgomery bus boycott there the demonstrations in Birmingham or they were the freedom but in between and before all of those things people black people in South were battering away at the system in little ways like for instance before the Montgomery bus boycott and very few people know that there was another bus bus boycott earlier several years before that in Baton Rouge Louisiana which preceded the Montgomery bus boycott before the sit-ins of 1960 there were sit-ins in other parts of the south which didn't get any attention and what it suggests is that when you gauge in some small action which isn't noticed isn't in the press nobody pays any attention to it you shouldn't believe that it's dead that it has had no effect because yeah like you're saying all those little things that people do they add up and suddenly one day they burst out and you have a movement and it's it's important to know that because otherwise people get discouraged you know you you walk on a picket line throat holding your picket sign protesting and there are five of you and ten policemen and you wonder why are there ten policemen when they're only five of us and we're nonviolent without doing anything why they know and then you might realize they're worried about little things getting bigger they want to intimidate people even if they're just little actions they want to stop people right then and there before it gets bigger so that tells us something well that makes me think of the other day I had the pleasure to hang out a little bit with Jim Brown right and he was talking about how activism was really a lot of it born from the blacks you know it started activism you know first civil rights but then into the anti-war movement and and I was also thinking about we stopped and visited San Francisco University um my friends and I and my wife and a bunch of people did this tour down the west coast like 1300 miles or something on bikes and we'd stop and talk at colleges in different places about simple organic living and essentially leaving a lighter footprint and not feeding the beast I like to call it all these industries that dominate the world and get all the subsidies and well anyway one of there was this black guy there said you know all of you up on stage there are white he says your movement what you're wanting to do will not happen without the black folks involved it won't happen and I was thinking about it you know you know I think he's right and so I wanted to ask you a little bit about the role of the black black folks in the 60s for anti-war and what you think that role is now yeah that's a that's the interesting point about the role of blacks in the anti-war boom it because when people think of the movement against the Vietnam War they generally don't think about the role of black people you know they think about students and they think about all those people who showed up in demonstrations and if you look at the pictures of those demonstrations those mass demonstrations in Washington DC on New York truth is most of the people in those demonstrations were white but the very first protests against the war came from black people in the south very first the very first draft resisters the very first draft resisters were young black isin snake Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee they were the first draft resisters snick itself as an organization issued a statement against the war but in McComb Mississippi in early on in the Vietnam War the movement the young people in the moon put out a leaflet and I think they did it because Secretary of Defense McNamara was visiting the South and AH wasn't visiting black people but he was visiting the South and they were putting out this leaf but because they had truth is the you know the administration in Washington was always most sensitive to the white political leaders of the south and west of the black community until the black community rose up but these young people in Macomb put out a leaflet early on before you had you know anti-war actions around the country put our leaflets saying why should black young men go to Vietnam when we don't have freedom in Mississippi and there was was an interesting crossover between the civil rights movement and the movement against war in Vietnam which I was sort of lucky enough to be there at that moment it was in Philadelphia just outside Philadelphia Mississippi remember that was the place where those three civil rights workers - in 1964 disappeared in Mississippi - white guides one black you know Schwerner and Goodman and Chaney they they disappeared and then their bodies were found you know they'd been followed by this these people outside of Philadelphia Mississippi and they've been they were basically they're beaten badly executed buried in a grave finally the graves were discovered in anyway ah there was a memorial service for them that took place outside of Philadelphia in a field and this was in the beginning of August 1964 and the parents of these three guys were there you know the three victims of this murder were there and the young black guy who was sort of the leading organizer in Mississippi a guy named Bob Moses got up on the on the platform at this memorial for these three guys and he said he held up a newspaper from Jackson Mississippi newspaper the headline said LBJ says shoot to kill in the Gulf of Tonkin the Gulf of Tonkin incident had just taken place and that was the headline LBJ said shoot to kill in the gulf of tonkin and he said to describe says government wants us to go halfway around the world to kill people for reasons which they can't explain and they are not willing to send federal marshals down to Mississippi to protect the lives of civil rights workers and I thought that was such a connection between what was happening and black people could see it they can see connection between the federal government's reluctance to protect black people in South and the eagerness to go around the world to fight a war yeah hypocracy well that's another thing I'm sorry to scoot away from that but I just wanted to say you know my daughter Danny one day she comes into the kitchen sits in the morning and she said she just thought of a joke kind of so I'll tell you what jokes II and she she made this up she says a knock knock who's there Darrin the hoop Darrin George Bush to stop using weapons of mass destruction and so it's like there's this inherent kind of hypocrisy in almost every one of the government's the programs but certainly where it relates to war and I just wonder like it's one thing for people maybe to not understand that you know some things about that maybe they don't understand this is an oil war that just don't maybe they don't understand that but shouldn't they understand that we're upset about the prospect of them having weapons of mass destruction and so we use weapons of mass destruction I don't it's interesting that probably you may be children can recognize that hypocrisy faster than we can because they have they haven't been as subject to that propaganda they can they're sort of thinking for themselves you know in the way that when kids do art they haven't been given lessons of art so they can do paintings that are more imaginative than the paintings that people do who you know been told this is what you do you know so yeah so your daughter's is interesting that your daughter could see that yeah I wanted to ask you on the subject of free speech now the thing to do they don't seem to be enacting legislation well I guess maybe with the Patriot Act and everything the certain things you cannot say probably eventually we won't be able to say anything about our government I mean right now they would be coming in like jackboots and beating the out of us I try to make the most of the slash yeah we might just be fizzling out yeah so making the most but but so I was I was wondering because you know now the thing that they do is like they they have so much of the media on their side you know I one time was in the grocery store and I and I anyway I never go to Ralph's but for some reason I did and they happen to have some organic produce I might add I wasn't buying in organic and so I go to the checkout line and there's all these magazines and all the checkout lines one of these you know typical right-wing neo-fascist friggin ugh anyway and I look and it says traders big mouth celebs side with Saddam and underneath that is one of my best buddies Sean Penn and then someone I hardly know Barbra Streisand and then it has me and it has all and you know a few George Clooney and by the way my picture was smaller than but okay yeah you guys complain you just go but it did run out of picture bother me there are other people who don't have a picture all right some are just mentioned inside right but no and so you know it seems like now the thing to do is and then when I would watch even like a supposedly kind of you know not right-wing place like CNN uh-huh I would I would you know they eat all of these MSNBC CNN everybody bashing celebrities bashing anyone who spoke out against the war and then I wouldn't watch the TV again for three weeks I turn it on it's like I'd like right where it left off you're bashing bashing and then it just kept going and go real nth miss relentless and but I wanted to say that's kind of the way it is now but but you talked about something I did not know about until I read this article you said you said that like shortly after the Declaration of Independence came into being that was 76 in like 1790s they already had the Alien and Sedition Act I think it was caught right 1798 yeah right so I just wanted you to talk a little bit about how they suppress speed even like then and in World War one and World War two in other words this isn't the first time right they it seems especially to happen when there is a foreign policy crisis you know and in 1798 although we weren't at war with France there was a kind of like a cold war going on and and so the government wanted to suppress criticism and so they passed the alien Sedition Acts you know you can't criticize government officials you know and people actually have imprisoned under the alien station act but that's that's a pattern in in every war there's always been an attempt to suppress dissent because the government is worried about people turning against the war they want to control information and they in World War one they had about a thousand people in prison under the Espionage Act and another Sedition Act but it's interesting to me that they feel the necessity to do that it means that they were worried about truth oh yeah but of course in before World War one it wasn't actually a small movement there were Socialist Party was big before World War one the IWW Industrial Workers the world was very powerful trade union revenue gene Debs Eugene debb's was very involved in in both the Socialist Party and the IWW that's right and Deb's went to prison for you know ten years because he spoke out against the war so it's a it's a pattern of the it's interesting the reasoning that they always use that the reasoning they use is well we're at war and we're at war you know you must support the government strange kind of reasoning it's exactly when you're at war that you need freedom of speech that's exactly when the life and death is at stake right that you need to be able to question what the government is doing and exactly at such a time they say you must have speak up but you know this business of celebrities it's interesting there's a there too why are they so excited about celebrity speaking out makes me feel good when I see that I mean that's it really I mean I feel good it's getting to them whenever they react that way I feel it's getting to them it's good it's good you and George Clooney and the Dixie Chicks and Tim Robbins and Susan sorry it's Eddie Vetter all these people in the who have a big following speaking out being citizens not not content with just being entertainers being citizens and I think it's terrific do you think that this is this kind of movement is about to just is it going to take hold and really go crazy now or do you think it's I mean what do you think is going to happen do you mean the movement against the war not just against the war we're really starting to see the corruption of the government and its foreign policy generally I think I yeah I think that is the cracks in the empire are going to become wider and wider I think I really have faith that the truth although it takes a while to come out and although they try to suppress it I really believe that the reality of what is happening comes through the people and I see I actually that happening now I am confident really confident that more and more people in the United States as they learn more because Americans really I believe have a common sense have a common decency it's just when they are misled and deceived and lied to that they will support war but as soon as they begin to sense that something is wrong and they begin to learn things yeah I feel that we're going in a good direction well um you said something in a recent thing that you wrote actually it was in maybe octo or note is in May you talked about Tom Paine uses the word Patriot to describe the rebels resisting imperial rule and he also enlarged the idea of patriotism when he said my country is the world my countrymen are mankind well that's kind of the way I feel I was really glad to see that you quoted him and that I don't know made me feel connected to Tom Tom Paine do you think it's you think that you and other people in the arts are especially close to the idea that we are all citizens of the world because I think people in the arts have an opportunity to go all over the place you know to go to other countries to experience other cultures and I and I think you have you know musicians are traveling all over the world actors are going all over and I think it creates the possibility of you being more aware that yes patriotism is not just caring for your own country it's caring for people all over the world yeah I mean definitely I've been that's just traveling really helps I've been all over the world and I've seen nice people in France yeah even in France and in you know Arab countries and like kind people in Israel people all over the world you know and when you get a sense of that people are basically good then you have to question isn't it isn't it the government that is wrong here now and I think it's important it's an important revelation when you begin to think that the people in in countries all over the world have more in common with one another than they have with their own governments you know yeah right so I don't know I know that the term well I won't get into that I was about to say something controversial no you mustn't do but uh ah well let me just say that I'm really it's been an honor and a privilege to be hanging out and having this conversation with you and I hope that it's the first of many and anytime you want to come out and stay with my family and why you're welcome to come visit that's a great invitation I'm going to make a reservation tomorrow thank you very much thanks woody this was terrific you

Channel: Deep Dish TV

Views: 99,687

Keywords:

Id: sJAw85pyikc

Length: 64min 54sec (3894 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 08 2013