A Chat with Daniele Sestagalli, Founder of Wonderland (TIME) | Avalanche House

[Music] are you guys ready okay so without further ado please welcome to the stage luigi demeo mario hello all right go for it there we go okay so yeah let's get started we're happy to have daniela here um my name is luigi donor demaio i'm director of d5 labs focused on building out the avalanche ecosystem we have daniele here um the wizard himself who's focused on a lot of projects abracadabra you could just why don't you introduce yourself talk a little bit about your life height you got here you know that whole story so i'm daniel i'm a frog i identify as a frog eventually i'm also a dj in defy i'm the co-founder of three projects the the first one was popsicle finance you can see on my shoes abracadabra money with the magic internet money as the stable coin of the future and we have wonderland dot money which is the number one in market cap projects on avalanche and that's good time i think today yeah that's a fork of olympus but with the directionality of avalanche because i'm bullish as on avex so we don't want to pair it with stables we like unstable stuff we like stuff that go up not that stay there i i think that magic internet money is stable enough for a project so uh wonderland was uh was an experiment actually and um when i was with my friends we were looking at um at avalanche well this thing is not going to work so we were looking at avalanche and we said we need to bring things that showcase how avalanche chain is good so what is good about avalanche it's fast it's reliable it's secure it's cheap so what better than give the opportunity to anyone to join a system like olympus but with less money faster easier to enter and with the directionality of the lp of avalanche so it grows as the ecosystem grows so the treasury can become something bigger as avalanche scales to become one of the top protocols in the world and um and then i i asked zeus and the guys of olympus and they said i think that the future is definitely cross chain but i also think that wonderland can be a very important piece and component on extending the olympus pro and the olympus ecosystem into new chains and showcase how economics incentives can work on large scale if community grow together and and this was really interesting uh there has been a little bit of drama in between the three free homies and the better time keepers but um but in reality we are all family like we a lot of people don't say this but a lot of people is in to make money so they they're very defensive on their backs right it's normal but as we mentioned also the founder of the triara's capital we are transitioning towards a new concept where tribalism is the past and unity is what brings really blockchain into the new world so i want to prove it with all our projects and we are proving it the frog nation is becoming exceptional i have never seen a growth like this i really want to thank everybody of you for coming here for supporting us supporting our projects because together we are one so okay so danielle for those who don't know what is the frog nation explain it to people well i think the frog nation is more of a concept like you there is no token this is important there is nothing to apin the frog nation is more the the idea that no matter which chain you like or which project you like or what techniques ethnicity you are or where you're from everyone should have the same opportunities in life and together is the only way in which we can ensure that these opportunities are truly for everyone and also thank you also the second thing about the frog the white frogs right yeah well a lot of people if you look at 2017 bull market most of the personalities were known anonymous so they were people that you know their names their name docs etc but in defy the movement have changed a little bit so there is a lot of frogs a lot of paper frogs everywhere right a lot of animals so i think that the frog identifies this idea of taking care of your own privacy taking care of your own identity taking care of your own funds and scales it up into a group behavior to make sure that when we are all together we are much much stronger and we can defend ourselves from those powers that do want to avoid us to be free in the financial markets so you can you can see one of the motivation that got me started on uh really um deploying things on on defy was that after the defy summer a lot of projects started talking about like let's add kyc let's ban american users from our interface more recently uniswap has taken out like synthetic euros and a lot of like all the open up in security like trading from their interface i think that this is very bad and unfortunately like sushi if you look at the amount of users actual users that use decentralized exchanges um uniswap is still the number one right so you want you want that the layer that gives access to everyone is the layer that is the most open not the most closed and the centralized exchanges do not allow anyone to play it the same way because they do not offer massive amounts of different assets even the small assets they usually offer them when they reached already a certain size a certain potential and and the small fish can buy yes good coins maybe can still make a free 4x or whatever but by the time they reaches these exchanges they're way more established products there were more established things so the upside is not there on the other hand uh uniswap anyone can list any coin that they want and which is great in my opinion and i am one of the few guys that believes that for example shib or or ellen mars whatever and all these freaking coins and mean coins are good because they for the first time they teach people how to trade on a decentralized exchange and the resonance of of the side chains in my opinion like avalanche which is a i call it more of a type of side chain for now but it's a l1 yeah is because these smaller assets and all of this became cheaper to trade because i remember when i was lping sheba for example i was one of the biggest lp of of ship on units what b3 i remember looking a lot into the size of the transactions and how much they used to pay for gas fees and there was a lot of people paying like 50 80 bucks for make a purchase of 100 bucks of shiba yeah they still made money because he moaned but they paid 80 percent of what they purchased so it would have needed to go double pretty much to have any profit in there and a lot of them then i joined the discord in that period of time that was a couple of weeks when there was so much going on in in uniswap and i joined the unizwa discord to see who this kind of guys were and the problems that they had and you could see for example that they were coming with trust wallet for example a very interesting coinbase wallet connected on mobile so very small amount of money asking questions how do i connect my wallet why i can't buy marcel on how does the slippage work like but this process is fundamental for moving towards what is coming right this concept that they learned for buying ellen or ascii or whatever you know that that process to get there to understand that they needed to hire the sleepage they needed to connect in a certain way etc is what is going to make a difference in two years from now so so you mentioned meme coins i hear you talking a lot about meme coins on other chains when we're gonna get an avalanche meme coin well there is one meme coin uh there is a packs for example yeah sure she bags i bought all of them i got wrecked but of course i bought all of them seriously so let's talk a little bit about wonderland how many people here are time holders or participate in wonderland okay wow wow that's good to see first let's go how many are avax holders about the same yeah the same good to see yeah good to see so people probably want to hear a little bit more about wonderland obviously it's olympus fork from the from the beginning but um what is your thoughts what's your vision of wonderland the future you and i have spoken about a few different things but i'm curious you know how do you see the future of wonderland on on avalanche going forward well i think the first question i would like to respond that i'm sure some people here would like to hear where the does this api come from apy like everybody is like oh how is possible oh the but it's printing so i'm staying you know yeah it can be real is it a ponzi yeah well uh i guess it depends depends on your perspective we all love the ponzu right yeah so so the idea the idea here and why the apy has sustained so high in comparison to olympus is all based on the mechanics it's very simple we don't really decide how the api is going to be the way that when you bond which is the term i don't really like that much but it's what it is when you bond avex for example into wonderland for purchasing time basically you are making an otc deal from the time treasury to buy time at a discount and that's why you are you want to bond because when there is like a tremendous price action or things like this it also opens up a certain gap in which you can actually bond and have a discount on purchasing time this is released with an otc with the investing period basically i call it the otc with the vesting period this resting period is five days so during these five days you get your time back that you purchased but as you purchase this time from the treasury the treasury has a profit big profit because it's selling you something that doesn't exist before so this profit goes to the memo stakers so when you stake time into memories then you are allowed to take to capture these profits in terms of api and the runway what is a lot of people look at the runway is nothing more than all the profit that has been generated that is getting distributed in form of time to the mammoth stakers it's very simple i think it's nothing too complex that's why in a way works and and it has been fantastic to see it in action on avalanche because it's very cheap and simple to use and everyone can really participate and do very quick like collect for example collect your time stick it right away something that you can't really do on ethereum because it's super expensive just by you need to kind of time it out when you buy that's why the size of bonds this is an important metric the size of bonds on olympus on it are much larger than the bonds on wonderland on avalanche because of this reason you need to consider the gas fees every time you bond and you put it on staking in some right so what is the future of wonderland i don't everybody know i don't like to copy things like that's not my thing i like to make things that are new and unique so my idea was that the concept of olympus is a great way to distribute a token like a mega ico i would say i i i look at it in this way so you you actually distribute the tokens to the people that are actually the strongest hands so the ones that believe the most in division in the projects etc etc over a very long extended period of time at the same time while you're distributing you are actually doing a real ico in some way because you are selling these bonds constantly and the treasury of the dao is become larger and larger so the the team tokens or the treasury tokens become the lp and all the things that you have been bonding over time then what what is very interesting is how can we combine this way of distributing this wealth over time with utility of the base layer of the token so the utility of time and my my opinion is that time and and wonderland should become the base currency of multiple games multiple the first will be an rpg that we are developing but we should open it up for more projects to enable this new ecosystem to thrive on top of avalanche because it's a great chain for gaming in my opinion like nfts all these require very cheap transaction very fast transactions and i want to develop this layer on top that will allow any game developer to build on top of the currency system that will be timed and a great layer layer one that will be avalanche so very exciting and i started talking with the super farm i really like the guys elliot is a great guy and uh they they have been having a little bit of a harder time on the token economics kind of things you know they don't understand like they're very strong in the nft's gaming but they're not as strong into the defy or involvement into the economical things right so i think that partnership can be very solid over the longer term and and and really have a partner the first partners of many to start building beautiful things on top of avalanche and wonderland so so do you sleep yes yeah so not enough not enough clearly it's not possible with the you know with the with the amount of tweets and projects you put out um so let's talk a little bit we talked a little about wonderland what about mim abracadabra um that's a project you're and popsicle obviously is one i know you're very you know bullish on why don't you talk about how all these projects come together with the frog nation this ethos you know what you're trying to build sort of so abracadabra is deployed on avalanche so right now we have two cdp's one being single-sided avex so you can borrow for very cheap and the other one is uh memo wrapped memo i will open a parenthesis on brap so for who doesn't understand what rap memo is but ape anyway which makes total sense in my opinion you don't need always to understand everything and those are the best tapes to be honest i don't i don't get it i buy but what it does is that when you are in the staking contract then the amount of memories that you have changes changes all the time which is good and the index that you see in the front page the index 1.1.2 now is index two it means that if you staked at the very beginning of the starting of the project you would have double the amount of time that you would have had that by staking so this is a re-based token so you can't really do much with the rebates token for the reason that it changes in values constantly so it's not suitable for for using it directly as the mean of as a cdp in a cdp so you can't borrow directly because it changes it goes down it's a mess it's similar to the ave tokens the other tokens are rebasing a pin in the ass so yeah well also it's true that's how it is like but the system is designed that way so compound it's not the c token is different right so the way that wrapped mammal works is just a wrapper that includes all the memories and it's always makes internal accounting to make sure that it's one unit it's all the units that is behind it's nothing special now yes it's a pin in the ass because it's 0.000 whatever yes i hate it too but it's what it is and it's worth a lot of money because there is a lot of memories inside that's that's the reason why that's right so we we we created this wrapper um at the beginning and we we were the first to implement the ws om wrapper because it was part of our discussion on how to bring olympus cross chain i think it's pretty cool and that is and the same is with wmemo so you can have if if olympus and as we talk a little bit about the olympus ipad impulse needs to become the currency of the future um that is not a stablecoin but it's more like a bitcoin for for defy then you need to have a wrapper or a unit that doesn't change in in number inside of your wallet like you want to be able to say i send you one of this the unit of death but at the same time retain the value proposition of going up in price or or maintaining the price right so so in our case with w time it was more the idea of giving access to w memo to giving access to it in different chains for example phantom potentially bsc and so on because we want more participants to participate in this distribution but in the future very likely this distribution will stop so the the um wonderland does not really wants to become the reserve currency of the world like it's not my i don't no thank you like like it's not my thing yeah olympus should try to do that we wanted to create a currency for a metaverse and when the distribution will end and we there will be a discussion in the dow to work work out the economics of this but when the distribution will end time will be the token and then then we can start not building around it so so what do you think about you know you mentioned the metaverse right this is a term that's thrown around a lot how do you see the future of the metaverse going forward like let's use wonderland as an example what what will people be able to do um what excites you about it i i'm really excited to do things like for example minecraft like i find minecraft yeah sure like i think minecraft in a way is a metaphor like people build whatever they want like they build games they build things and there is unlimited creativity that goes on that i feel like wonderland is the minecraft of economics like people can build anything on top of a solid system of economics to then upgrade their own games to become profitable so that makes sense that's how i see it it's more like infrastructure than that and and the game that we build ourselves is more something like something like a proof of concept than what it has to be like sometimes you need to show others how things should be for inspire people to build new things on top right so we need to be the ones bleeding ahead on that side and you have a lot of experience i'm not sure if everybody knows we have a lot of experience with stable points in general just given your background what led you to you know focus on mim magic internet money why is that the design why is that the one that you want to push just given your background and why are you either unhappy with the landscape as it is or or or why can it be better so i think everything comes into the these i have this infrastructure mindset check i like to build infrastructure and from the beginning of the year i've been probably the most loud proponent of the multi-chain universe i think the narrative of polka dots for example was to create the chain of the chains kind of situation but in reality what happened is that nothing to say bad about kolkata to be honest it's always good but this is already happening with bridges and multiple layers one like today i with magic internet monitors to look into the infrastructure thing is the only token that is capable of moving without sleepage for free from a layer two on ethereum that is arbitrary towards avalanche and so on instantly this is how it's supposed to be like i don't need to think too much i need to have my magic internet money my wallet whatever it is and i need to be able to go wherever i want that's why we call it meme airlines like it's yes it's like the magic internet money airlines i don't have a private jet it's actually on the chain right and and the the vision here was that um it comes back to 2017 and how i see things from 2017 and before communities in between 2015 to 2018 have built around centralized exchanges that's how it is so binance is so strong because it has the community from those times so the whales that become whales because of those times and and with phoenix the same the west that are earlier so there is a community around centralized exchanges okay x all this will be now the new paradigm in my opinion is that now communities have built around layer ones and blockchains so those are the new communities the new people inside of the blockchain space and this community realized that at the end of the day i look at the layer one the same way that i look at binance say like what what does d5 on avalanche is composed of simply the same value proposition that an exchange has translated into a chain in a trustless way so we have the exchange component which is trader joe i like the jewel then then we have the borrowing and landing component especially uh where we have other iphones yeah and it's the same with with finance you can borrow and land on binance all the time then then you have the more the margin trading and the bigger borrowing so the cheaper liquidity that is abracadabra then you have potentially derivatives i don't know who is coming there's a bunch there are derivatives for example and there is a stable coin so now tether well many i don't know if you saw the new tether true for the truth or whatever yeah but in reality tether if you look at the history of what it did it connected these communities together so at the moment in 2000 from 2014 to 2018 was very difficult for these centralized exchanges to open banking relationships so you couldn't really deposit or keep in depositing and exchange a large amount of u.s dollars but the prevalent pair was btc us dollar and each us dollar so you required a pair or a system or an infrastructure that's where we are getting that would allow banking basically for all these new exchanges including finance without tether no binance without that no wobby so when when they created all these new pairs btc usdt ethereum usdt what happened is that they decided to use ethereum as token and this pushed a lot integration because as an exchange needed to integrate tether for being able to trade btc then they integrated erc20 and having this integrated already then they could have integrated very easily any other token that was the erc20 standard so so tether has pushed the limits and the easy integration on all these exchanges for the erc20 standard now why was important all of this because for the first time i don't know who is here that is from a little bit older ages of bitcoin but man i think some what you had potentially was that you had the price of bitcoin on bitfenix that was even 10 percent different than on will be or even more at a certain extent in korea there was people flying to hong kong in atms to buy bitcoin bring it back to korea and sell it in the in the market there right so so this was a very this was very real for the reason that arbitrage was not happening at all be a frog you have to fly yeah you see i have a friend so when arbitration started to happen then the prices started to really create a real market and newcomers like for example cumberland started to look into the into the market and saying if i can really move usdt very quickly from one exchange to another then really i can make money so how does this translate into what what is our vision with abracadabra it translate that if you really can move a stable coin for free in between all all chains how you want and without passing always from ethereum or from whatever and you create this network of um of value that can be transferred all across and you start then engaging with the communities of each individual layer one and then really things start to become similar to what the centralized exchange's world looks like and so it could be minted on other layer ones versus something like dye which has to be bridged exactly so then you are natively considering each individual market or each individual layer one as an integrate in integral component of the backing of this stable coin so you really move into a world in which value is distributed and then the backing of a stablecoin should be distributed in the same way and has no bias so if avalanche will be the number one in the future then very good we have minted a lot of magic internet money with it right if it's not going to happen it doesn't matter because it's going to still be a part of the reserves of this stablecoin as cdp and it gives free opportunity to anyone to grow as much as they want secondly very important is that usdt allowed leverage so now i think that one important thing that i consider is that the real world does not work with peer-to-peer lending when you go around and you want for example an ipo tech or a loan you go to the bank the bank doesn't give you money from some other individual it gives you money from the central bank that's how it's worked that's their business model so i like so now we are in a phase in which tbl in some way it's irrealistic in defy in my opinion because we have this massive folding going on so we not can say that the open interest or the open landing real open landing in in defy is uh 11 billion tbl and folding is when people folding it's mean that i borrow one stable coin to flip it to the other and blah blah blah for just farming reason so i want to augment my apy it's that there is like six billion dollars of people that really want to borrow with uh with it like where are these people i want to know them like it's idiotic to think about so but but that's the reason why the peer-to-peer market never worked and directly market makers borrow and land on centralized exchanges because they are the biggest liquidity provider but their incentive is to allow margin margin trading and especially futures futures so all when when people say oh uh tether has minted one billion who is the guy that bought one billion tether you must be a pump was you i wish it's just that there is a arbitrage in between the u.s dollars request for purchasing usdt for arbitraging basic cash and carry futures but i saw a whale alert yeah i saw a whale alert so it must be real yeah it's exact but but it's very simple there is someone that sees an arbitrage in between holding spot bitcoin and shorting bitcoin in a certain exchange and there is a market maker that is willing to sell the usdt to this person for enabling this cash and carry trade to happen for a premium so they go to tether and they say i need 300 million because i have this otc or i have ftx that is trading usd usdt we need to replenish that book because we run out we run out we don't have any more so the same concept we need to start to apply really to defy if i will not scale if we not try to implement the c5 things in a decentralized way i hate c d5 cd5 let's just make a better user experience on defy that really and truly gives opportunity to people to do all these things cash and carry leveraged trading um borrowing and landing in in a normal way they just remove the metamask layer or the the wallet layer yeah would be yeah i mean i wish that metamask works a little bit better but we're working on it well it's not just that they're in the rpcs too right yeah it would be very nice but i think that i want to a little bit wrap up this thinking so if if peer-to-peer landing is not how the current world infrastructure works why are we trying to make it work on on differ stupid like it doesn't make any sense we need more money we need much more money for making it happen because we are talking about because we're early yes we have trillions of derivatives out there i don't think anyone knows how much trillions of derivatives exist to be honest too many too many so now what is the state of the market tbl is 230 billion dollars small like if we want to really scale to the to the extent of really competing with the traditional finance we need a central bank of d5 this is what where i wanted to come to and magic internet money wants to become the central bank of defy allowing really to extend the power of being able to mint us dollar value into these markets and create all this leverage trading all these derivatives markets all of this in the hands of each individual chain that wants to take the opportunity to use the wealth that has been generated by creating these tokens or the avex ecosystem and leverage it and make it available inside of his own ecosystem to become truly powerful so we are winding up a little bit on time um i know we've talked about a few things but a lot of people here have traveled a long way um to see you talk to you hear you um what kind of alpha do you have for them what can you draw for the people here well um jlps are coming very likely next week and what are the jlps jlp is a trader joe liquidity provider token so your ex joe can become collateral yes while still farming joe and avalanche uh-oh incentives when they will be so that means that we can take all the tvl of trader joe we can put it inside of abracadabra and we can take out alf for example of that in magic internet money and invest again in the ecosystem this is what they want to see right you want me too right yeah you know that yeah yeah yeah definitely okay when incentives when incentive when the factory what yeah so we have been perfectly for anybody yeah we have been very limited on deployment but i talked this morning to michael from curve and i think in the next days we will be able to have a magic internet money pool now what how i would like it to be is that it will be different i think that a lot of people don't understand avi tokens or another triple thing so i would like to have it as magic how i call it the 3-pool version 2. so magic internet money together with usdte that is the bridge token and usdc-e so the utility is increased so the the way that it moves around the arbitrage in the ecosystem is faster and we we really can can have velocities increased by a lot do you have some time yeah you have a little bit of a lot a lot of time a lot of time dude should we let the audience ask a few questions yeah please do please yeah let's get a few questions you know you have the time so yeah yeah i'm letting you know who's got a question does anybody have a question gentleman right here there we go your name sir thank you sir thank you sir of uh popsicle and meme as well with regards to the meme i'm curious how you think about the risk right so people can use a lot of different collateral which is volatile and um it's segregated cauldrons right so if one of them blows up then it's not great so does the for the system fully rely on the liquidators being very efficient and i'm just wondering what are the mechanisms that exist to make sure that when we get into the bear market uh the meme will still survive and succeed yeah thank you thank you so i was talking this morning actually to the delphi research guys about this because uh who's that telephone delphi recently oh yeah delphi delphi delphine duffy dolphin i don't know dude so um [Music] last week about yeah last week we had the mega dump of um so it was supposed to be my day off you know i remember very well yeah so i went to sleep quite early and that was pretty nice and i said yeah i got to sleep i took some melatonin melatonin melatonins yeah yeah oops what that i don't know well well then at seven in the morning i see a la meda calling who's that alameda yeah sending me a lot of messages i'm like oh jesus what is going on then i open my telegram and there is a lot of messages and the first that i see is is magic internet money still backed by the cdps so in other words is it insolvent yes so the question was are the cauldron solvent because rari capitals is insolvent so we want to know if we need to buy meme basically that's alameda play always they want the alpha first so they can just buy the meme and say all good or if we should actually pull out of the triple right so what happens here how our system is designed is that we have different cauldrons each quadrant has an allowance of maximum amount of magic internet money that you can borrow now what they saw and this has changed in the ui for this reason what people saw is that there was 120 million dollars worth of vom posted as collateral but there was no clarity on how many mem they have borrowed with all that money because the loan to value was like 75 so it could have been like 75 million dollars of meme outstanding like which is a lot of money instead no the allowance and a lot of homies always post like oh when meme to the cauldron because the reason is that we don't we did never allowed a lot of borrowing happening and the position the cdp's theirs were pre um prim pre-pump let's see so they were all around 150 to 200 dollars ratio for liquidation so very low loan to value that then we we did a run check just to make sure because i wanted to post it to the largest institutional that were in the triple right with meme and we did a georgie did a whole report on each individual cdp and each individual quadrant and we was highly solving because risk management can be applied to this type of this type of system it's very important because on compound the reason why they can't generate as much revenue as we do which is at all time high we did the merlin dildo how i call it yesterday because it was too big it was 2.4 million buyback yesterday is because we are capable of managing more high-risk collaterals giving them allowances which we consider good because of the depth of liquidity and the sidelines etc etc and and create returns high returns to our stakers because nobody's supplying i mean we are supplying yeah as spell owners like if you own spell and especially if you make money on the liquidation you own the central bank of defy this is the cool thing about it and and liquidation went super well also time when almost no liquidation so highly solvent el patron did his job this is the and who is el patron el patron is our liquidation bot yeah so patron and patron depth collector or the father el patron depth collector the debt collector i am el patron that's you he is my depth collection all right let's see if we can have one more short short question right um i hope it answered your question sir we got one back here your name sir michael hello i have just a very short question for you when sorbetto serve yeah come to the popsicle event tonight oh boy there's the alpha so the money fragola which one fraggle and frago fragola okay that's strawberries sprinting dude it's unbelievable like the like we the the ui guys uh from popsicle needed to make bigger boxes on moba because there was too many zeros on the ap wise or certain pairs it was freaking embarrassing it was like we we can't count it as apy it needs to be apr because they have the apr yeah compound spell eat um like about the million dollar was 2 million apy with zurbat on v3 let's see hilarious i was like there you go the future of italy all right the future of france sir yeah i'm changing it though see all right guys thank you uh thank you for danielle for your time thank you um and uh we look to see more we look you know we're excited to see more about wonderland and everything else on avalanche as well as throughout all the later ones and the ecosystem congratulations anyway for your work in avalanches i think is going to the right direction uh well everybody likes to see like crazy price actions of course but if you look back at three months ago we are very well placed so always good thank you thank you very much sir thanks guys [Music]

Channel: Avalanche

Views: 185,972

Keywords: Ava, Ava Labs, avalanche, Avax.network, Wonderland, Popsicle Finance, Abracadabra, DeFi, stablecoin protocol Abracadabra, decentralized finance ecosystem, Daniele Sestagalli, Magic Internet Money (MIM, blockchains

Id: SadlkVqF2zA

Length: 46min 37sec (2797 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 18 2021