I know what bullet I'm going to use what powder I'm going to use what brass I'm going to use primer barrel length all that before I even build a gun before I even start buying parts for the gun and I make it work because I've done this so many times that I know like it's going to work I've never got to a point where I'm like well this powder doesn't work I got to try a different powder like you do this and you work this I'm going to show you guys my whole process and you've if you read between the lines and you watched my 22 Noster series you pretty much saw it but um it works I've done this process found sequential charge weights that hit in the same place loaded up five of those and shot a half inch group at 200 yards and then that load has shot you know six or seven inch groups at 1,00 yards with a 10 shot test and no seating depth changes like it works it it it's quick and dirty and it's statistically irrelevant but I've done it so many times that you guys are going to see I mean these things all shoot I'm already done with the 28 Nosler I did that process it worked the the gun shoots incredibly small so that's what we're going to do next we are going to be out at the range [Music] [Music] hey guys Tim with little crow Gun Works welcome back to the channel uh today we are going to talk about load development all right time to get into the meat and potatoes here um but before I do that there's a couple housekeep uh things that I want to handle so um first of all I want to say thank you again to our viewers and subscribers and all the people choosing to comment on the video series um this series is already taking off and it's quickly become uh extremely popular it's getting a lot of attention um so thank you to those of you that are watching subscribing contributing um I mentioned this in the comments but for those of you that haven't heard me say say it uh those of you that are watching these long videos and committing a lot of your time to it and investing in it this series is for you you know I don't um the people that are coming on for 3 minutes five minutes and clicking off I don't give a [ __ ] about them or what they want or what they care about or what they want to see those of you that are investing in this I'm investing in you so uh so I want to thank you again um and then a couple things about bullet sele ction I know we beat this subject to death 10 times over but we're still getting questions on it um so guys are asking about Barnes Bullets and uh say Nosler etips or some of the federal copper bullets that they have any one of the mainstream monolithic uh bullet manufacturers they're all fine I mean they all make good bullets it's just we like the CX because it has the highest BC per grain of bullet w which means for a given set of conditions it's going to have the highest hit probability you know all other factors equal so um that's why we like it not because it has some magical properties it's just they are incredibly welld designed and you get as much BC as you can but you still get the monolithic terminal performance and then the last thing I noticed I couldn't help but notice um about 6 days after I released that last terminal video Hornady released a podcast of their own I think it's number 122 called monolithic bullet fax some of you have probably seen it already and you know where I'm head headed with this but for those of you that haven't I'm going to link it down in the description of this video I'd suggest you put me on pause right now and go watch it if you're not going to watch the whole thing I would say watch the last 7 minutes I think it's 50 minutes long so if you fast forward to the 43 minute Mark and watch it to the end and then hit the back button it'll bring you right back to me where you paused it and you can continue on so you guys go ahead and do that I'll wait all right so now I'm assuming you watch that last seven minutes here's my microphone I think most you guys know who's around that table if you don't you've been living under a rock um straight from the horse's mouth they're all CX Shooters every one of them at this point there is nothing else I can say to you about this subject so we are going to move on and we're not coming back to it hooray all right now we're going to talk about the second most contentious Topic in the hunting World well is I'm I comfortable saying second I think so I think third would be the barrel length debate which we're going to cover that today too second load development here we go I think I'm going to title this one teach a Mana fish because I've already told you guys I'm not giving you a chapter and verse on what these loads are now there's a caveat to that if you buy a rifle from us I'll give you chapter and verse why because then you're getting a rifle that was made by us we know how it was made we know what reamer was made it was it was made with it was our reamer you're using our brass our bullets the powder we recommend the primers we recommend our system chapter and verse you are doing everything we tell you and that at that point and only at that point is the exact load data relevant to you if you're not using our gun our system the charge weights don't mean [ __ ] so I'm not going to give you charge weights unless you're on board so that's that um where do we start I guess let's start with published load data what is published load data well you guys have seen these things before right here's our Burger manual here's an old Hornady manual here's a Barnes manual right you guys have seen these things and then all the data that's published online what are these things well they have most of them have good information in the front of the book about how to assemble ammunition that will go go bang not necessarily optimal ammunition for anything but just something that when you put it together and pull the trigger it's going to go bang what else is in these things load data right different load datas and these things which is merely a reference for their testing it is not an indisputable indisputable list of facts that apply to everyone everywhere on the earth at all times it's just to reference that's all it is nothing more and they will be treated as such and should be treated as such because not everything in there applies to you now why do they publish lad data well I think I'll fire up the screen recording here and get going um three two one and we're live all right never mind that for a minute so what is this this is a picture of a highway the hell does that have to do with anything well publish low data is kind of like the yellow line on this the edge of this shoulder and the white line on the edge of this shoulder what they're trying to do is give you a ballparking area that you can conduct yourself without getting into too much trouble but in reality you have shoulder and ditch on both sides before you start getting into something that you're going to be really in trouble now some of you I'm guessing have recently seen the video that uh ultimate reloader did where he attempted to run 308 up to 300 wind mag velocities which is not realistic despite what they did in the video it's not even close um I'm running a my 300 wind mag I'm running a 210 grain bullet at 3060 not 2800 so let's get in touch with reality but um I thought the video was interesting it was Reckless like no two ways about it running a 308 up to over 100,000 PSI without a blast Shield not not a good idea um but anyway what it taught us was that if we use good brass and a good rifle put together by a competent gunsmith by all high quality Parts you can exceed the listed Max and you're not going to blow yourself up and that's probably the only thing you should take from that video um so when you see published load data just know that that it's I'm not encouraging you to go past the published load data but what I am telling you is that it's not if you hit that Max charge it's not like if you go a tenth over you're going to blow yourself up it's not reality um and I'll show you some examples of that here shortly so and you guys are going to see me looking over I got a bunch of notes here just cuz this video is so technical if I don't have notes there's a bunch of [ __ ] I'm going to forget so um what else okay so now we talked about our big manuals there's something else you guys should be conscious of so I have another example here of manuals okay this is the hodgden reloading manual right it usually has some articles about what's new in the industry and what they're working on and their new powders and they'll do a showcase on them and blah blah well in the back it has their all their lad data that's also available online well well if you go in this and just as an example I'll use the S Ram mag with 162 grain Hornady soft point boat tail right well in 2015 so this is the 2015 where's the where's the year on this son [ __ ] up here 2015 right in 2015 for that bullet the highest velocity in the manual was with Rumbo who's surprised not me you want speed Rumbo add to card um what had the second highest velocity so the Velocity in here 162 green bullet this is at 3 and 290 the Sammy length or close to it um with Rumbo they had 2963 for the velocity there's another powder in here they had 2955 so only 8 ft a second behind Rumbo what was that powder well it was IMR 79 977 [ __ ] I'm going to call that right now that powder Was A Turd from day one however look what's on the cover 7977 you think maybe they're trying to promote the [ __ ] next example 2021 same manual here we go 2021 Edition what's on the cover 8133 same bullet same cartridge here we go Rumbo is still at 2963 IMR 8133 which is a fantastic powder by the way discontinued unfortunately it's not discontinued at my house but it's discontinued um 2963 Rumbo 3069 with IMR 8133 now if you could get get enough of it in there to do that that would be reality because that powder will produce a little more velocity than Rumbo if you run them up to the same pressure not 100 feet a second call [ __ ] on that right now but it'll be a little faster than rumo if you run them up to the same place but now 8133 is the fastest thing in town well look what's on the cover 8133 shocked I'm not next example 2024 here we go same [ __ ] 2024 what's on the powder or what's on the cover ramshot Grand all right you go to the same bullet they got another turd in here so Rumbo 2963 still ramshot Grand 3094 and they got another one in here stab ball HD 3046 I'm calling [ __ ] on both under no circumstances have I ever seen any ball powder treated the same run up to the same pressure produce more velocity than Rumbo now under very specific circumstances like a very specific case or whatever but in general I'm telling you right now there's no way at the same pressure you're getting more velocity with a ball powder ain't going to happen I don't care what powder it is so this is the problem with published data is these guys have a vested interest in themselves in selling whatever it is they're trying to sell okay now they have the pressures listed in here do I believe them no they're trying to sell what they're trying to sell so now that we' got the published data crap out of the way uh let's go to Gordon's and we'll start to look at scenarios and how published data can be can lead you astray and cannot uh put you on the right path so we'll pull Gordon's up here and we'll pull up the take me a second to get this the way I want it here 7 PRC published load data from Hornady all right so now we have Gordon's up we simulated a 7 PR C cuz the 7 PRC isn't in here well how did we do that Tim we took a seven REM EG and we put the actual case volume the actual water capacity that I measured from the brass we're using in here and then we seated we're going to use 175 elx for all of our examples today because like I said I'm not giv away chapter and verse on the CX and anything you see in this video again you're using at your own risk so how did we mimic a 7 PRC well we added the water capacity so we started with a seven Rem Mag corrected the water capacity and then we took a 175 elx and we seated it in the theoretical case the same amount that it is here so we have a cartridge overall length of 3.26 5 and if you look at the length of that bullet like if we look at our database here from Applied Ballistics it's 1.57 five well if you take 1.57 five and you add it to the length of the brass you get a number well the difference between that number and the Hornady cartridge overall length is the effect of seating depth that's how much bullet is stuffed in the brass so we go up here to seating depth this video you guys you probably going to watch it on a computer screen I don't think your cell phone's going to cut it this time but um let me adjust this so C can put me in the lower right corner because we only need the 175 data all right um so our seating depth is 0.590 that's the difference between the bullet plus the brass and the cartridge overall length listed here that difference is 0.59 so that's how much bullet is in the case so now we've we have the right amount of bullet in the case we have the correct water capacity of the brass we have in effectively replicated to 7 PRC there's nothing more to it than that so what are we going to do well we have our 175 elx we have a 24in barrel length which is what they had on here for their test data get up to that so test Barrel 24 in one and8 twist horn case Federal 215 hopefully I remember to talk about primers okay now we're back so what are we going to do we're going to run through these Max charge weights in Gordon so you can see the variation I already have reloader 23 in here at the max charge of 61.2 grains and hornady's listed velocity is 2900 ft a second or thereabouts again with a 24in barrel well according to Gordon's that charge weight is going to give you 2840 fet a second so 60 ft a second under what the Hornady manual says um we haven't agreed upon what our max pressure is going to be let's say it's 62 65,000 PSI let's say 65 right well this load according to Gordon's is at 59,0 352 uh again 20 40 ft a second the load ratio is 92.8% that's basically the fill ratio of the case burnt propellant 100% % hey there we go we want all the powder to burn effective efficiency rate 28.2% you'll see that vary quite a bit depending on the powder you choose but the end of the day we want all the powder to burn because that's going to give it the most consistency if all the powder isn't burning you see on here the gas outflow velocity is usually 400 450 ft a second faster than the bullet velocity which means that if all the powder isn't burning then when that bullet exits the muzzle it's getting shot blasted with kernels of powder on the ass end that are going 450 ft a second faster than the bullet so it's basically getting shot blasted at 450 ft a second as it flies away from the muzzle you're going to tell me that's consistent I don't think so plus Hornady said this in their videos too that like from shot to shot even though all the components are the same you'll get four 5,000 PSI variants across shot so for this shot 100% of the powder is burning well let's say it was 95% well one shot it's 95 the next one it's 94 the next one it's 96 because if the pressure is different the burn rate changes and a different amount of powder gets burned every time so how many kernels of powder are blast in the ass end of the bullet is different from shot to shot so if all the powder isn't burnt like if we don't have 100% burnt propellant don't even talk to me we're not using that powder so you're going to see some of that in here all right so we're 60 feet a second under the manual and we're leaving almost 6,000 PSI on the table this is their Max who's next 4831 this program doesn't have 4831 shortcut but has 4831 and uh for all intents and purposes it's the same thing uh the max charge 63.9 grain what do we get here 6 1,505 so we're leaving 4500 PSI on the table projected velocity is 2840 again um this says 2950 so it's predicting 110 ft a second under the manual if you don't have a chronograph or a way to check this stuff and you're thinking oh I got 2950 well you might really have 2840 um here's another problem though 95.8% load ratio that's fine you know you're getting a nice full case that's what we want look at the burnt propellant 992 so it's not all burning and what you'll notice with this program is that the higher you push the pressure the faster the burn rate is so if you start with a powder and it has X burn rate well that burn rate changes depending on how much pressure you're subjecting it to so what you'll see is that when you're in the lower charge weight it's like in in the low 50,000 PSI we'll just do it as an example here let's say uh 60 grains that's too low 61 okay so 61 grains is 51,9 53 PSI and only 94.4% is burned so you think well how is that possible you have less powder in there and less of it burns yeah that's how it works that's counterintuitive but that's how it works the more you put in there and subjected to higher pressure it actually Burns faster and mimics a faster burn rate and more of the powder Burns so you got this double-edged sword where some of these powders they don't all burn until you're running the balls off them and at lower charge weights it's not all burning and you're shot blast in the back end of the bullet so right there that tells you that h4831 isn't a great option for that uh cartridge unless you're leaning on it which we're going to so who's next reloader 22 Alliant reloader 22 there we go and a Max charge of 65 grein I'm telling you this video is going to be long but too bad we're going to do it thoroughly we're not going to do it at all all right 65 grains is that right yep okay 6431 PSI running right up there leaving 700 PSI ey on the table not a big deal 2913 muzzle velocity what does the bck say 2950 pretty close 37 ft a second 96.4% load ratio that's great 100% burn propellent that's what we want to see so reloader 22 I would call a viable option 7828 super shortcut and I think this one was closer to reality well that's underloaded by a lot all right max pressure so we're at the max charge that's in the manual and this is I can tell you from experience this is underloaded um max pressure 59560 PSI 2887 ft a second 93.2% load ratio it's getting a little low burnt propellant 99.4 not good but you're leaving over five you know 5 1 half th000 PSI on the table as you get closer to Max Pressure you're going to get 100% burn who's next vidori n560 where are you darling there we go Max charge 66 Mercy 6466 PSI running right up there 400 lb shy PSI shy of our theoretical maximum 2958 ft a second what does this say 3,000 so about 42 fet a second 41 and half ft a second shy load ratio 96.4 burnt propellant 100% very viable option reloader 26 oh God here we go the fabled reloader 26 wait so before I do that what are we at here 2960 got 646 2960 you can probably hear my daughter chirping in the background she just got home with Grandma uh okay goer 26 what's our Max charge 67.1 2996 all right so our PSI 65302 so a little over our our theoretical Max 2996 feet a second load ratio 94.1 burnt propellent 100% so reloader 26 has a reputation online as some magical fairy dust that produces velocity that you can't get from anything else and while it is a great powder it produces high velocity it is not special so if we Tinker with this Max load whether we Tinker with the reloader 26 and bring it down to the same pressure as n560 or bring n560 up to the reloader 26 pressure it doesn't matter so we'll just Tinker with this and bring it down to 64,66 which is where n560 was that's pretty close 64 626 close enough now our velocity is 2988 ft a second and with n560 we were at 2960 so treated the same same pressure reloader 26 produced a whopping 28 ft a second more than n560 you can have it I mean I don't care you can't get it anyway I mean it's preposterously expensive and you can't get it or in 560 you can get easily and it's less money and it produces the same velocity for all int and purposes so you can have your 26 I'll stick with 560 or something else you know in bigger cases too like you get into really big cases there's better options too like n570 there is nothing on this Earth that I have seen that will produce velocity like n570 it's faster than 26 you get in a big enough case where you can get enough of it in there to hit max pressure it's going to give you more velocity than reloader 26 period the end at the same pressure so we're not going to go Gaga over 26 in this series because it's overrated all right moving on who's next uh vidori n165 that so reloader 26 is viable if you have it you know go ahead and use it but I'm not going to break my back trying to get my hands on it and 165 I can tell you right now this is going to be viable 66.7 grain Max woo spicy 66483 PSI 2891 ft a second the book says 2950 so we're about 60 ft a second off 100% load rate ratio 100% burnt that means it's going to be compressed so you get that much powder in there and a piece of Peterson brass you're going to be hearing some crunching when you seat it down to this 3 and 265 there's no way around it it's going to be compressed it all Burns which is good um but again our velocity projection is 60 ft a second under the manual oh who's the next H 1000 I know this is kind of redundant guys but I'm just trying to make the point here that these manuals they just are not the be all end all what's our Max here 67.1 same as reloader 26 look at how underloaded that is so their Max projected or the projection for this is 56 6,562 PSI it's pretty anemic uh 2667 ft a second what does the manual say 2950 almost 100 ft a second under what the manual says here's the other problem 10.7% load ratio so that's going to be pretty compressed and burnt propellant 97.4 so this is a 24in barrel you know as you get along Barrel that's going to get better but those of you that are running like a 20 or a 22 Little Barrel and running h1000 it's not all burning and you guys can't figure out why you're not getting the the Box velocity well you're doing it wrong all right who's next reloader 25 they don't have in this program mag Pro we're not going to talk about because powder is irrelevant IMR 7977 another relevant discontinued turd it was overrated from day one what's our Max 68.5 spicy holy moly so we're at 69,1 123 4,000 over 4,000 PSI over our theoretical Max 2909 ft a second which is is 40 ft a second under the listed manual so this isn't producing the highest velocity and it's the highest pressure of anything we ran through the program by a considerable amount I think it's like what 3,000 PSI over the reloader 26 and it's 70 ft a second slower turd and then load ratio 103.8 I think you'd have a heck of a time getting that much in the case that would be just about full up to like the bottom of the neck so whole shoulder would be full like right to the bottom of the neck and then you still got to stuff a bullet in there and get the entire boat tail down into that powder it's going to be pretty heavily compressed does burn 100% theoretically but um not ideal so you guys see like I see some value in these manuals but they're not to be all and all you know I told you guys I've been doing this for 26 years and I don't know how many guns I've reloaded for but I can tell you right now every gun in my possession whether it's my gun or a company gun um all the loads I have developed for him not one is using a published load anywhere from a manual or from online or even from some jackass on a forum you don't even know if he even owns a gun nothing I copied from a forum nothing from anywhere just this this is how I look at things this is how I analyze things and I find a safe place to start and I work up until I see what I don't like and then I stop so take these with a grain of salt I guess is what I should say um now what what do we want to talk about next so we talked about how the manuals old ratio powder burn velocity pressure reloader 26 is not Magic let's talk about the short barrel craze while we're on the subject and we have the program up here so a lot of guys are cropping their barrels down or or building rifles with shorter barrels to accommodate suppressors which is item number one I don't understand but that has consequences that you guys aren't realizing and we're going to go into that this especially if you're kind of new to this and you're sucking up all these 5 minute videos and technology and trying to learn as much as you can and your heart's in the right place but you're you know remember Dunning Krueger you're working your way up Mount stupid you just don't know any better um you're setting yourself up for problems whether you know it or not so we'll go into the details here so like we're still going to stay on the 175 elx let's use 4831 you go okay I was able to find hoden 4831 shortcut it has a good reputation it is a fantastic um Precision Powder so has a tendency to shoot really small it's not a speed powder at all but it likes to shoot small so we'll put 4831 in here we'll put it at our Max charge give you the benefit of the out and assume that you were brave enough to go up to the book Max 63.9 and now let's say you got a 20-in barrel 2699 ft a second yuck we'll say 2700 and then on the other end of the spectrum let's say you use an optimal powder and you have a longer bear Barrel which is what we're promoting 26in barrel and we go to you know cuz what a lot of guys like to say and what the dribble you hear online is oh well you're only losing 25 ft per second per inch so if you're going from 26 to 20 you're only losing 150 ft a second well that's fun to talk about and that's cute and everything but that's not reality it's worse than that and in this example it's let's see let's go with n560 one of my babies and go back up to our Max charge 66 grain so even though we're leaving 400 ft a second on the table you don't know that CU you're just going by the manual right so you got a 26in barrel you choose n560 you run it up to Max you're at 3020 for those playing the home game that's a difference of 320 ft a second why does that matter oh here we go here comes Tim and his freaking slides okay we did some hit probability testing on our 8 by8 box with a 7 PRC theoretical 7 PRC and a 175 ldx in our Mountain conditions as previously discussed I already told you we're going to be doing the 160 CX but these things parallel so whether it was a 160 or 175 the results are going to be very similar we have our two scenarios we have our 20-in Barrel 7 PRC with the wrong powder for the job and then we have our 26in Barrel 7 PRC with an Optimum powder oh and he's got multiple columns again what a jackass what do we have here okay so remember this novice some experience proficient expert that's our four conditions from our original slide why did you close it you dummy this one so remember plus or minus 6 miles hour 421 that's the same as what's on this other one novice some experience efficient expert look at how big of a difference that uh 320 ft a second makes so again we have 3/4 M rifles novice you're at 35.8% with a 20-in barrel in the wrong powder 46.8% under the same conditions so same level of experience both 3/4 inch rifles blah blah just at 322 20 ft a second you're giving up 11% hit probability some experience you see it's 58.8 to 70 A5 that's even worse 88.7 to 94.3 it's starting to come back where it's a little bit less important expert level 965 to 98.6 so what we see here is that um if you're an experienced that speed helps you a lot where if you're going to actually take the time to get up to an expert level of proficiency where whether it's proficient or expert you're going to spend countless thousands of dollars on training and practice shoot countless thousands of rounds all the time invested travel blah blah to be able to practice at long range to get to that point so but you don't start there like you start down here so I don't see why you wouldn't want every Advantage you can get and take that added added velocity what are these other columns well so we have our 3/4 inch rifle here right well on our 26in Barrel the second column we go from a 3/4 in Rifle to a 1A rifle now we haven't spent enough time on this but these 3/4 in conditions that's a pretty tall order you know a lot of people have brought up the the Hornady your groups aren't big enough videos where they're shooting sample sizes of 20 or 30 shots to get their um their rifle Precision while I think that may be a little Overkill especially for a hunting rifle um Point remains you know 3/4 that's that's a pretty tall order if you're talking five shots or more um so this is assuming that you can get to that point right these first two columns are 3/4 well the 26 in the second column is a 1-in rifle and under all conditions except for well novice and some experience you're better off with a 1-in rifle that's going faster when you get to the proficient level it's the same a 1-in rifle going 3020 is the same as a 3/4 inch rifle going 2700 and then you get up to expert level which most people will never achieve then it's in the favor of you know you got everything dialed in so then it's going to be in the favor of the rifle that shoots smaller what's the next column so 1 MOA this next column is one and a quarter MOA so now you're still better off if you're a novice or have some experience and a rifle that shoots one and a quarter you're better off with that going faster at 3020 than you are with a 3/4 in right rifle going 2700 first two levels and the third level it's uh 7% worse so once you get up to that proficient expert level you're better off with the gun that shoots smaller and slower last column inch and a quarter MOA Precision or no not inch and a quarter that's uh the second one so second one is inch and a quarter 4 2.2% 61% oh no we we already covered that what's this last column this is an inch and a half MOA rifle so this is a rifle that shoots twice the size groups as this one going 2700 ft a second so with double the group size if you're a new guy you're better off going 320 feet a second faster than having a shorter Barrel that shoots half as small and up here 55.7% so you get to the sum experience level you're almost just as well off having a inch and a half gun versus a 3/4 inch gun that's 320 ft a second slower and then when you get up into the proficient and expert levels the advantage goes to the gun that shoots smaller and then this last column is well what if your 2700t a second 20in 7 PRC shoots inch and a half yo so we're assuming okay I got this little short barrel gun it's going to drive tax what if it doesn't now look at these numbers 31.3 yeah that's worse than anything over here obviously and it's going to be because this far rate column is the same amount of precision but the fact that you're going 320 ft a second faster look at how much that benefits you with a gun that shoots you know bigger it's still benefiting you 8.1% here and uh what is that that's about 8% this one 5% just under and this one 2.7% so no matter what the conditions are you know if you say equal Precision for both rifles going faster is going to increase your hit probability um and I I should have done all four columns for both of these so you can really see the difference but I think I made the point that like the internet would lead you to believe that velocity doesn't matter and that's not reality it matters I mean especially if you have ranging error like these first two rows where you know you got some you got a ranging error for one reason or another that speed really helps your hit probability because it's the trajectory is flatter so the fact that you're wrong in the distance matters a lot less because your um danger space your angle of attack is a lot shallower so um what else do we want to talk about so anyway I guess to put a bow on that um we don't recommend short barrels you're just you're giv away too much and I'm 6'4 you know I'm a I'm a big bastard and I put I everything I have has a long barrel and I hunt in the mountains and most of my guns are 28 or 30inch barrels plus a muzzle Brak you know plus a 3-in muzzle brake so I'm carrying some giant thing strapped to the outside of my pack and it's you know two 2 and 1/2 ft above my head I don't hook on anything I mean if you guys have hunted in the mountains like if you're tiptoeing through the timber that's one thing but if you're tiptoeing through the timber bring an 18 or 20inch Barrel if you're planning on maybe having to take a 3 four 5 600 yard shot you're not in the woods anyway so that length is irrelevant um and the sooner you realize that the better off you're going to be all right what's next what powder should I pick well how about we get to that okay so we can close this now and we'll go into these all right so we have this is uh the relative burn rate chart that I downloaded from Hornady has what's the number here 176 powders on it I think it's pretty complete too I didn't see many powders that aren't on here that are relevant to the you know to the US market but so we got all these powders what do we pick it can be kind of intimidating especially if you don't know what you're doing well let's see if I can simplify it for you so the stuff that's relevant for this series is basically this third column from number 117 viori m540 down to for this series it's not relevant but let's say all the way down to the end you know these are all down here this uh reloader 33 bit ofor 24n 41 H50 BMG us 869 that's all like BMG stuff which isn't relevant for the series so we'll just worry about this top part of this third column number 117 to number 170 so we only have to worry about that column well that's still what is that 353 powders that's a lot how do we narrow that down well let's get rid of any powder that's not relevant to this market so let's say we'll get rid of all the Norma powders because I've been reloading 26 years and I've never seen a Norma powder I've never seen a jar of Norma powder in the flesh my whole life so we'll eliminate those what else can we eliminate ball powder here I go ruffling the feathers we're going to eliminate all the ball powder why is that well it's inferior here that's why it's dirty as [ __ ] you're never going to get the velocity out of it that you will out of an extruded powder especially a double base extruded and in my experience the ball powder that I have used you know depending on what your comfort zone is with running up to Max charges or even exceeding Max charges in my experience ball powder doesn't shoot worth a [ __ ] until you stomp on it like pass the Max St stomp on it it'll shoot like complete garbage until you get up around that Max and then it'll come together but even then extruder powders that I've tested usually outshoot it and they're faster and they're not as dirty and on and on so I know they're coming out with some new powders like you know that like I mentioned that Ram shot Grand and ramshot LRT and um Winchester staball HD you know that HD you look at that that's down here they got it between Rumbo and 8133 which means it's almost useless for absolutely everything same with 8133 like 8133 is useful for super over bore stuff and unicorns like it's way too slow for anything we're testing I mean even the uh 28 Nosler how overboard that cartridge is 8133 is too too slow you're not going to get to Max Pressure until it's so impressed that you're going to if you leave the ammo sit for any amount of time that powder is going to push the bullet back out so it's almost useless and they got staball HD down there for a burn rate like that's almost useless to everyone uh ramshot LRT same thing that one's down there I've used that in some overboard cartridges like I I tried it in my 257 weatherbe I have never seen such horrendous groups like that gun I already I've told you about it in another video that 257 weatherbe I have I've shot cell phone size groups at at over a th yards with that gun at 100 yards same bullet same seating dep same primer I tested Ram shot LRT it shot 6in groups at 100 yards with a gun that shoots in the tws using and 565 so I just don't use ball powder do yourself a favor okay any ball powder I have it's been relegated to uh forming brass breaking in barrels like basically garbage at this point so we're going to eliminate all the ball powders if the powder's discontinued we're going to eliminate that there's some a bunch of powders on here that are discontinued like the whole IMR enduron line there are some good powders in there I never Ed 4955 but I heard great things about it uh IMR 4451 same thing heard great things about that never got a chance to use it 8133 I have I think I have like 7 lbs of it still great powder discontinued hopefully they bring it back at some point I know the ELR guys are pissed because that was like their baby um now you can't get it anymore so when we groom this list what does it look like oh look at that presto changjo now I think I zoomed it too much here yeah I did now we can get rid of this whole these whole first two columns like I said and I crossed out everything that was a ball powder or is discontinued I don't think I missed anything so now we have what's viable what our viable choices are and then we'll go to this slide okay so here here's our viable powders on the left here these are the powders that were left on that chart so now we've drastically reduced that number from 53 down to whatever this is let's groom it even further now Tim's going to make his Cuts I've already said in one of the other videos we're not using any Alliant powders some of them are great but now they're more expensive than even vidori and you can't get them so I don't care how good they are it doesn't do me any good to do a bunch of testing and show it to the World on a powder that nobody can get so you're out of here um then there's a few Strays in here like accurate 4350 that's a extruded powder but you know and then some of these other IMR powders getting a haircut the only IMR powder I'm keeping around is 7828 so we look at Tim's list here now we're down to 15 powder so we took that well and I included H50 BMG which was down on that other page so we went from whatever that would be almost 60 powders down to 15 giving this list a nice haircut trying to make this easier for you guys so why is this list relevant well well in my experience these are the best powders in that third column in all ways uh potential group size consistency from lot to lot uh velocity you can achieve um extreme spread and also versatility so I shoot some of you know I shoot a a 223 Remington uh for prairie dogs I have a 30-in barrel big heavy barrel and I use uh Hornady 80 grain Elms and I'm using n540 in there and getting those up to like 30 60 so with this list I'm going everywhere from a 223 Remington with a heavy bullet all the way to a 50 BMG and everything in between you can load almost any cartridge in between there with these powders now if it's a more of a straight wall type case obviously that's not true like or something that resembles a straight wall like uh let's say like a 458 wind mag or something like that that uses super fast powders cuz there's no shoulder on the case but any type of bottleneck you know type Magnum uh or higher performance case well I shouldn't even say that even like 243 I load from this list um two 257 weatherbe I load from this list 65 284 Norma uh what else I'm not loading at 270 right now all these 7 mimet from this list 7300 Winchester magnum from this list 7300 Norma improved which is my L cartridge from this list 30 caliber 308 Winchester N150 or n540 you're welcome um what else 300 wind mag using Rumbo um 338 lap a magnum and 570 or tumbo either one um you could load a 33 338 Win Mag from this list you'd want to be around like n550 somewhere in there you get up into the big stuff 375 shyac you're going to be at the bottom of this list uh 50 BMG again you got you got that covered too so you're swatting almost everything with 15 powders and if you never left this list for the rest of your life you'd be a happy person so now I've simplified that what's relevant for the cartridges that we're shooting well here's another problem I should go back to this here's another problem with um published load data is what they give you is almost like two wi of a window you know they give you like a whole bunch of powders that will go bang but that's not a list of optimal powders you know if we go back to this chart the full chart here so my 257 weather bead just to show you how much versatility there really is on this list so 257 will whether be super overboard cartridge right well depending on bullet weight and what um velocity you're trying to hit and different parameters you can be all over on this chart so I've loaded stuff as fast as IMR 4064 in the interest of science number 106 on the burn rate chart all the way down to 50 BMG so from 173 to 106 in the same piece of brass now does that mean everything in between there is optimal hell no there's probably a small handful of powders on here that are op so that's the problem with published load data is they give you a whole list of powers well there's really only two or three in there that are worth a damn for what you're trying to do so um going back to my list here's what we're looking at for well I guess to finish up for you guys what should you do okay so you have your published load data here what Tim what do I do how do I know what to do this is kind of the problem is that you have your your list of powders here and it's okay you have from reloader 23 down to 7977 h1000 I think 23 was the fastest on there 23 no 4831 was so we have from 4831 down to h1000 reloader 26 for 4831 is number 146 and h1000 is 161 and you have everything in between there well the problem is you have okay so you have number 161 to 146 well that that depends on what bullet weight you're using and how long your Barrel is so if you look at what they offered you you know your slowest burning stuff is reloader 26 and h1000 well that's really only optimal for super heavy bullets in a really long barrel if you're stomping on it if any of those things are not true the Barrel's shorter you should go faster on the burn rate uh your bullet's lighter you should go faster on the burn rate you don't want to stomp on it you should go faster on the burn rate so like it's not a hard fast like this is the powder it depends on how long you bar is how heavy the bullet is and how much you intend to lean on it cuz some of these powders you're not going to get 100% burn till you're up around that 65,000 PSI Mark well if you don't want to run it that hot you're better off going with a faster burn rate that you don't have to stand on it to get 100% burn and the only way you're going to know that is want to test and have a have a chronograph but also to use this get this Gordon reloading tool and learn how to use it you it's free so if you have a computer you don't have an excuse go get it and figure it out um and you'll see like you can spend time in there playing back and forth and test some different powders and you'll you're it's not like gospel it's not like you can take everything that you find in that program to the bank but you'll see Trends and you'll get an idea for how this stuff works like and a lot of it's just experience like I'm at the point now where you can give me any cartridge bullet and bare length and I can tell you the three best powders to use in that without a manual without going on Gardens just ingrain knowledge of doing this so many times I can tell you where the sweet spot is and what you're going to want to use and that comes at a cost I don't know how many tens of thousands of dollarss I've spent doing this stuff but it's earned knowledge you know and the only way you guys are going to figure it out is to do it one but use these tools get get the program get Gordon use these things to your advantage and get in there and figure it out um but what what I said in general for the trends you know I'll go back to this full burn rate chart you know like I said I can with my 257 weather be I've loaded from IMR 464 all the way to H50 BMG well the same could be said for any one of these other cartridges that we're doing in the series like you could do the same thing with whatever a 28 Nosler 7 remag or 7 PRC you could use any one of these powders but the amount of powders that are optimal is a very very short list and if you're one of these I want a short barrel and a big heavy 175 grain bullet you're going to want to be faster than you know almost anything that's on hornady's load data um you know 23 and 22 would probably get you there to 100% burn 560 I think might uh probably not though so like most of these powders you can't even use this slow data cuz this is for a 24-in barrel you went down to a 20 now all these powders are too slow or almost all of them you know so now you're in unknown territory you got to try to use a powder that's a faster burn rate from this other chart and work your way down into no man's land and now you're experimenting and I mean I'm comfortable doing that because I've been doing this for so long and I have these programs and I can simulate it but for you it's like oh well I'll just cut the barrel off so I can put my suppressor on well you're digging yourself into a hole whether you know it or not and you know I'm sorry I don't have a formula I can give you guys it says okay if this case capacity and this bullet weight and this barrel length then X powder you know that that doesn't exist it's just it's from experience but what I can tell you is that in general when you look at these powders that you find and publish load data like go up to the 160 CX that one I think was even worse yeah for range they had all the way from Power Pro 4000mr to St ball HD and Rumbo Mama Mia Power Pro 4000mr is up here it's number 125 Rumbo and HD are 165 and 166 so from 166 all the way to 125 you're going to tell me every powder in between there is optimal when you know for what we're doing I'm picking like look at the 280 aley for example n550 to n555 so this one I have marked for double double duty for the 280 you could also use it for these seven Magnums but let's say the 280 from n550 to 555 well look at how much space that takes up on the chart 50 to 55 it's 129 to 144 lot tighter window same thing with 7 Rem Mag if we say we can go as far as 555 to 7828 where's 555 144 to 7820 154 I mean that's a lot tighter window so you know what they have here for the CX you going to tell me all these powders are optimal no I can tell you right now that stay ball HD you're not going to get enough in there to make that work or tumbo you're probably not either again both of these unless you run the balls off them reloader 26 you might 25 historically I would say no it's too bulky h1000 has the same problem as Rumbo you just you can't get enough of it in there you got a stomp on it 7977 is a turd 78 28 great choice 22 great choice 48 31 great choice Power Pro 4,000 Mr too fast mag Pro I guess that would work but we're not using that because it's ball powder an IMR 4831 is okay too it's just there's better choices so that's why I don't talk about that one but you see like I can just look at this list and tell you no no no no yes yes yes no no no like and you guys I I wish I had something I could just hand you that you could do that but you have to get in here and muck about and you got to be willing to test some stuff and if you don't want to waste a bunch of money on components that are going to be obsolete the minute you test them get this program get into it figure out how to use it and get it done all right so we went through I talked about 257 corop list showed my list loading manuals what book ends are viable not what is optimal use Gordon primers I guess let's talk about that real quick and then we'll go into uh are loads that are relevant for well the powders that are relevant for this series primers here we go we're not going to spend a lot of time on this why is that cuz it doesn't matter the primer does not matter I've tested them all there is no I know people lose their [ __ ] over Federal gold medals and what it's a primer okay I I have not got any sign in all most my testing in my life's been on Magnums okay so that's I've used more of these primers than just about anything else I have not got any better extreme spreads or anything group size anything better with a 215 gold medal than I have with a regular 215 or a CCI 250 or Remington 9 and a half Magnum or a Winchester large rifle Magnum they all work they're all good they can all produce Lowes they can all produce fine accuracy they can all Produce High Velocity you're welcome don't get lost over the primer find a primer that you can get either in your area or that you see consistently available online and buy enough to last a lifetime you're welcome you're done uh and that's all I have to say about primers I've tested them all you guys I don't care what your data is you can't convince me otherwise none of them are any better than the others I've I've produced Preposterous groups with all of those primers you know the big whatever that is the big five the 9 and 1 half Magnum the Winchester large rifle Magnum the CCI 250 the 215 and the 215 gold medal they're all good so just pick one stick with it don't screw around all right let's get into the loads that we're or not the loads but the powers that we're going to use okay another slot here what do we have I'm going to populate this as we go through here you see there's a bunch of blank spots our 28 acly our measured water capacity which is I choose to use fired water capacity some people say measure a virgin case some people say measure it and then size it and or not measure it but fire it and size it and then measure it some people say fire it and then measure it it doesn't matter just be consistent and when you're comparing things compare them all the same way whatever number you put into Gordon you know if you put a fired and then sized water capacity in the Gordon you're going to kind of low ball a little bit in my experience or if you put a fired case capacity in there the velocity predictions it has are going to be a little bit closer so what powder did we what powders did we choose for these cartridges the 280 because we're looking for what optimal and 100% burn and high load ratio and good velocity and on and on and a powder that is inherently precise shoot small is available blah blah we picked h4350 n550 n555 and I can tell you that I I personally don't think there's going to be much difference between as far as the peak velocity they produce just in my experience you know 4350 is a fantastic powder 550 is similar very similar to 4350 and 555 it's a slower burn rate so you think okay we're going to get more velocity well that's not really a velocity powder it's not known for that it's known for precision but not speed if we could get enough 560 in there to get it all to burn at a 26 inch barrel length that would produce more velocity but we can't we get to where it's super compressed the load ratio is too high and it doesn't all burn anyway in a 26 in Barrel if we use like a 28 I think it all burned according to Gordon's but that was at Max Pressure where if you get anywhere below max pressure it's not all burning so like that's too much of a you're pigeon ho holding yourself into one teeny little corner and I don't I don't like doing that so so we stopped at n555 as far as going slower on the burn rate chart 7 PRC and 7 Rem Mag remember what we talked about with case capacity that equals speed the end here is our measured case capacity after both of these were fired 7 PRC 80.9 six grains 7 Ram mag 85.0 so on paper 7 Rem Mag is going to be faster now because we're not throating 7 Rem Mag out it's going to be that 160 CX is going to be seated in the case a little farther than it is on the 7 PRC so some of that case size Advantage is going to be chewed up by Bullet but I don't think it's enough I mean I ran the numbers I think it was still the effective combustion space which is the remaining space after the bullet stuffed in there uh was still higher so I think you know it's going to be nominal but I think we're going to get more velocity out of the 7 Mag and they're using all the same powder so everything's fair and nobody gets their undies in a bunch hoden 4831 shortcut that's our Precision Powder for these uh n560 is kind of The Sweet Spot that is a high velocity powder that can also shoot really small and um isn't very temp sensitive in my experience and then the old standby IMR 7 8 28 super shortcut that powder was basically invented for the seven R mag by Dupont back in the early 60s and not the shortcut version but the regular 7820 I think they call it something else they had a different canister number for it but that's effectively what it was and some people swear by that powder in this size cartridge and in my experience that powder always shoots small um it's a little more temp sensitive than some of the other ones but as we showed with our extreme spread data you know if you think about this if you if you get your extreme spread under 50 because you're hand loading but it has some temperature sensitivity well that's kind of like just moving it back up to that 50 foot a second extreme spread and as we showed that doesn't mean you're not going to hit stuff it's not nearly as important as the internet would lead you to believe as I showed so that temperature sensitivity doesn't really scare me too much especially if you go out and test it in different temperatures and you have velocity data from different temperatures that's really not that important so I got to take a second and uh 7828 like I said in my experience that powder shoots really small and produces High Velocity great accuracy powder great speed powder kind of Best of Both Worlds doesn't have all the new fancy additives and whatever which doctor juice they put on powders now but I think we're going to see pretty good things out of that powder and then the 28 Nosler look at that case capacity 99.84% h1000 or tumbo and n565 we go back to our burn rate chart you see n565 h1000 and Rumbo this is where I I have a little bit of issue with this burn rate chart because in my experience n565 is not faster than 20 reloaded 26 or h1000 or a tumbo and this 28 Noster testing where's my little deal I have it down here this is like fastest to slowest you know fastest burning to slowest burning why did I put this down here even though on the burn rate chart it's faster than h1000 and Rumbo well the way I look at this is they're all extruded powders they're all double base so they're made the same way and when I hit what I call Peak pressure BAS the pressure signs I was looking for when I hit Peak pressure with each of these three powders I was at the highest charge weight with m565 and It produced the highest velocity when it gave me the same pressure sign so if I got more velocity and I needed more to get there it's slower that's how it works so and then Rumbo and h1000 in this case with the 208 Nosler and this bullet they hit Peak pressure at the same velocity within 6 feet a second um but I think Rumbo needed like another 6/10 of a grain or something like that um so h1000 in my opinion is the fastest out of those three we might have been able to get away with n570 but same deal like I said we' at 26 in barrel length I think we'd have to run the balls up off it just to get it all to burn and if we did that it would produce more velocity than these other three by a substantial amount and this is what I was talking about earlier where like you can step down and burn rate provided you can get enough in there and actually get it all to burn and then you'll get more velocity but if you don't check all those boxes it doesn't do you any good to just put a slower powder in there you're not going to get anything uh you're going to spend more money because your charge weight's going to be higher um but the juice isn't worth to squeeze unless you're leaning on it so um so for each of these uh we're going to test do kind of a primitive powder ladder you guys have seen um let me go through this here real quick I already said all that okay so what we're going to do is for each of these powders we are going to load up a series of charge weights and you guys if you watch my 22 Noster series you know how I do this this is I'm going to call it my method because I've never seen anybody else do it um so use Gordon's or a loading manual to figure out a safe charge weight to start at and then for cases this size I go up in 04 grain increments so you pick a charge weight to start at and then you load one shot at that charge weight and then one shot at every point4 heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier until you get up to either the book Max or where you feel safe or what Gordon tells you is the ceiling based on the pressure you're looking for or whatever whatever you decide as your ceiling you load in 410 increments till you get up to or a little past that number knowing that when you get up to that charge weight you may not be able to shoot them all you may see a pressure sign somewhere that you're like okay I'm done and then you have to take it home and pull it sorry my wife's coming in and out and she kept leaving the door open um so you bring more than you need and the reason is most people aren't able to shoot in their backyard so like if you're going to go to the range it's easy to bring more than you know you're going to shoot like bring charge weights that are too high knowing you're not going to shoot them and then bring them home and pull them apart rather than be conservative on the loading and then you go there and you shoot all your charge weights and you work your way up and you shoot your top charge and you're like well [ __ ] I could have went higher well now you're sitting there at the range with all your stuff out you already committed a whole bunch of time and you're wishing for a higher charge weight that you didn't bring because you afraid to load it well it's not going to spontaneously explode just because you overload something and put it in a box you know you're going to be shooting youright way up to this so what I usually do is I bring something I bring a few charge weights hotter than I know I'm going to shoot and then I watch for pressure signs and work my way up so we have one shot at each charge weight why is that relevant we already know we already learned from the Hornady testing that you need to shoot 30 shots of a given combination before it means anything well I'm looking for Trends I'm not looking for definitive anything I'm looking for Trends I have found this method to be extremely effective at quickly finding a load that will suit almost anyone's needs is it the best load maybe maybe not you can go you can spend the whole Barrel life doing load development and not find the best load so I'm not counting on that I need something that checks the boxes I'm trying to check so what I do is let's say with h4350 or whatever find a safe place load one shot at my starting charge load point4 higher point8 1.2 and so on and so on and then when I get to the range I pick one point of aim and I shoot the first charge weight and I usually put my uh spotting scope with my um the hell is that thing called not tactic cam phone scope put my phone scope on it so I record the Target so I can see where each bullet is hitting right so I pick one point of Aim Shoot my first charge weight to h4350 and then I shoot the second one there and the third and the fourth and so on and so on and I shoot them all at the same point of aim and what I'm looking for is what this test teaches you is a lot of things it you when you're by the time you're done with it and you shot your eight or 10 or however many charge weights at that same Bullseye you learned what your safe operating range is you learned where your pressure ceiling is you learned uh what velocity band that powder like that powder and bullet combination likes to operate in what you also learn is you'll see sequential shots hit in the same place on the paper despite the fact that they have a different amount of power in them so that tells you like where that combination is happy a general area of charge weight where that combination at whatever seating depth you picked and it doesn't matter what seating depth you pick you can start at 5 off 10 off 20 off 5050 off 100 off it doesn't matter you just pick one and go to the range load make sure they're all loaded the same length measure to the ove not the tip and then shoot them all at the same place so you're going to learn like okay well six seven and eight those three charge weights all hit in the same place well that's probably where you want to test you know so you're learning like where that combination is happy and it's not all going to be in the same place like with 4350 the gun might be really happy at uh 2950 ft a second well at 20 at n with n550 it might be 2990 with n555 might be something else there's no hard fast rule for this you know it it doesn't do any good for you to say oh well with this powder with reloader 26 I can get this bullet up to x velocity well that's cute but if it doesn't shoot there who gives a [ __ ] like if it doesn't shoot well at that velocity what does that matter that doesn't have anything to do with anything it needs to shoot so and not all cartridge and bullet and powder combinations like to shoot at Max Pressure I can tell you that from experience what you'll see a lot of times with this test is if you did it right and you actually loaded up to Max where you're starting to see pressure signs on the brass or maybe not quite firm bolt lift I don't really like to see that but um pressure signs on the brass and what you'll usually see in conjunction with that is let's say you have 10 charge weights and you shoot and the first one goes here and the second one and third and fourth and then five six seven are all together and then eight is really close and then nine kind of jumps away and then 10's we the hell over here well that's the gun telling you that you've reached the limit you know if it starts throwing shots near the top of the the charge weights you're there you know and and if you don't see signs on the brass till let's say the 11th shot or something but at 10 or 9 10 and 11 it started spraying them well you're done that's it you know you go back down to where the thing was happy and it wasn't throwing shots and you figure out you know which charge weights in a in in a row which sequential charge weights in a row hit in the same place then you come back with five of those that are in the middle like if if the middle charge weight is 55 grains of whatever powder well if 54.6 55 and 55.4 all shot well you come back with 55 and bring you know maybe six of those or nine of those and shoot two three shot groups or three three shot groups or two five shot groups or whatever whatever your standards are um and you'll see if you have something viable if you get a decently tight group or you get four together with one off then you're at the point where you can probably just tweak seating depth and you're there and and you'll be where you need to be so this is a a good way to um my method is a good way to explore a few different powders without getting overly committed you know cuz you can do this with 10 charge weights of each powder or eight or whatever the number is and you shoot that 10 shot test and at the end of it you have a 10 shot test for h4350 n550 n555 and you look at the aggregate group size and you go okay I went from 2850 ft a second to 3050 so I went across 200 ft a second and almost four grains of powder and my aggregate group size is X well whichever one shoots the smallest of those three for the egg that's probably the powder you should pick this isn't rocket science you know guys don't over complicate this you know a lot I'm at the point now where I'll before I even build a gun I know what bullet I'm going to use what powder I'm going to use what brass I'm going to use primer barrel length all that before I even build a gun before I even start buying parts for the gun and I make it work because I've done this so many times that I know like it's going to work I've never got to a point where I'm like well this powder doesn't work I got to try a different powder like you do this and you work this I'm going to show you guys my whole process and you've if you read between the lines and you watch my 22 Noster series you pretty much saw it but um it works I've done this process proc found sequential charge weights that hit in the same place loaded up five of those and shot a/ inch group at 200 yards and then that load has shot you know six or seven inch groups at 1,000 yards with a 10 shot test and no seating depth changes like it works it it gets quick and dirty and it's statistically irrelevant but I've done it so many times that you guys are going to see I mean these things all shoot I'm already done with the 28 Nosler I did that process it worked the the gun shoots incredibly small so that's what we're going to do next we are going to be out at the range banging away finally I'm going to get you guys some guns in these videos um I know this was long I have no idea how long it was but I know it was long so if you stuck it all the way out through the uh the whole thing thank you I know I got a little bit more Western on this one than some of the other ones but it's a contentious topic and it's the topic has so many different arguments and fights and spats online and I feel like people waste way too much time and resources on low development those resources are way better spent doing this abbreviated load development that I'm going to show you guys how to do and then spend those resources go out and pay someone like me or whoever for training and go out and practice get out and do this stuff that is worth way more than you trying to get from a 1 MOA gun to a 3/4 MOA gun or a half MOA gun or try to get your extreme spread down that [ __ ] doesn't matter not for what we're doing not for hunting not for the size targets we're talking you're trying to shoot a beer can at 12200 yards that that stuff matters trust me I've done that sort of stuff and then it matters but we're talking game animals get out and do it that's worth way more than getting lost in the Weeds on the stuff so hopefully I answered uh most of the questions you had rattling around in your craniums um you know I just go into these things with what I think you guys want to know and try to get to the point and get you guys as much information as quickly as I can without getting too lost in the weeds but I know a complicated subject like this there's always going to be stuff that you know guys are wanting more like you didn't answer this and you didn't answer that and just put it in the comments you guys know I'm answering pretty much every one of those that's getting to be a bit of a Time suck to do it all but I'm doing the best I can so um I think that's all I had for now so you guys stay tuned I'm going to again I'm going to try to increase the Cadence on these and get out and start shooting these ladder tests I'll take you guys along for the ride on that and show you where the dust settles with each of these powders again I'm not going to give you charge weights I'll give you velocities cuz I think that's important to know so you guys can go okay well he had a 26in barrel and he cried Uncle at this velocity with this powder so if you're out in your own testing and you get up around that velocity you probably think twice about what you're doing so um the velocity will be a good reference because the charge weight doesn't matter unless you're using our identical rifle system components Etc so uh again thanks guys I really appreciate you thanks for sticking it out and uh we'll see you on the next one thanks [Music]
