5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER?

what's going on you guys this is sky from reignited here and in this video we are going to revisit the hemi lifter controversy stay with me all right you guys so the reason we are revisiting this issue is because i really got a great response in my last video so much engagement there everyone has so many strong opinions about this situation and that's fantastic because i actually really enjoy that interchange between you and me and the reality is i'm just a mechanic right i'm not an engineer i have some experience with this so i felt qualified to make a video on it and yet there is a lot of other information that people have provided that's really given me some good food for thought and again i really want to thank you guys for a lot of you guys had some really well released arguments on why you felt the way you did and so thank you for that because honestly that's the way we all learn right we have this interchange of knowledge and we can kind of agree disagree we don't necessarily have to come to the same conclusion but i think the more information we all have the better so again thank you guys so much for that now in this video i did want to address several of the most common things that came up in the comments of the last video now the first thing on the list is i am no longer in any way shape or form employed by chrysler or fiat corporation so i have no self-interest whatsoever and either promoting their products or saying bad things about them it doesn't matter either way and honestly guys look at this channel look what it's a small channel they don't care they don't care about me they don't care about my opinion doesn't matter to them i hope one day i will be big enough where it does matter to them but right now they don't care about a video i made so i don't get any money from this this is strictly based on my experiences of 10 years being a chrysler technician so that's the first thing so now the second thing a lot of you guys are saying they should really redesign this engine because they know they have an issue with it guys i'm not going to totally disagree there if you know you have an issue it would be good to take care of it but i'm going to give you a quick insight into how corporations work okay there is a gigantic cost involved to actually redesign an engine block and to re-implement the assembly line and all that huge cost associated with that and i think people are overstating just how much this lifter issue comes up as far as my research goes it's happening to less than five percent of the vehicles on the road less than five percent but it's one of those squeaky wheel gets the grease situations right these people are very very vocal about these failures that they've had and i don't really blame them for that that's a huge cost if you're not mechanically inclined you have to pay to have this job done that's thousands of dollars but guys stuff breaks that's just the way of it and i want you to think about it this way every single corporation out there all the all the automotive manufacturers out there when they design stuff initially with their engineers they'll design it they can test it for a certain short period of time but then they got to go into production with it everything seems good well after you get some real miles on there some real time on there flaws will start to show that you didn't expect to have beforehand and at that point the company faces a choice do i redesign this whole thing and redo our assembly line and implement a new part or do i just continue on with it as is now here's the argument that the companies use for continuing on with it as is rather than redesigning it if you are having lift your failures in less than five percent of your current vehicles out there the costs associated with fixing all of those under your warranty they're willing to take those lumps because in the end of the day that number is still going to come in at far less than redesigning the entire block and redoing the whole assembly line so that's not something they're willing to do guys you shouldn't be holding your breath for that all right along those same lines the third thing i see a lot of comments out there guys are saying that chrysler should be recalling this engine until they have it fixed guys i want to make something clear a recall is due to a safety issue only and when they issue a recall and the company says we are going to voluntarily take care of this for you at no cost to you guys that's because if they did not voluntarily do it the government would force them to do it so it looks better from a pr standpoint for them to get out in front of it and say hey we're going to take care of this for you free of charge now again that's only for a safety issue in this issue which is just a mechanical issue they're going to issue what's called a tsb or a technical service bulletin what this means is they've had some time they've seen enough failures for it they kind of know a good thing and what you should do to fix it so we're going to issue this bulletin that we're not even really going to tell you about but it's here if you want to go looking for it that says hey you might want to do this if you want to fix this issue now notice the key words there you might want to do this they're not going to pay for it it's a mechanical issue only and they say yeah we know there's an issue here we know how to fix it but if you want to pay for it you can certainly fix it if you want to that's where the tsb is and guys all the manufacturers do it every single one of them so it's the cost of doing business guys if they stepped out in front and said hey you know what we screwed this part up we'll go ahead and fix it for you at no cost and all the manufacturers did that in all the parts that had issues there'd literally not be a company in business that's just not how it works now yes you're going to take a pr hit on things if you're having enough problems like with this lifter issue guys are saying man chrysler's rep is really taking a punishment over this not really there's a ton of really really happy hemi owners out there who've never had any problems with them they drive great it's been around for almost 20 years now so they've got it pretty well dialed they're gonna roll with it it's not it's no skin off their nose continue as they are now i do feel like the current generation of hemi is nearing the end of its design cycle will they make some adjustments going forward that's very possible but they're only going to do it when they were already planning on up updating things and changing things they're not going to do it out of the goodness of their heart guys just not going to happen all right next thing that guys had mentioned in the comments they mentioned the possibility of using a thicker oil in there to prevent the lifter issue could be i don't know i've never seen a long-term test done like that the only thing i would argue against that for is that in the chrysler academy that i went to they were vehemently arguing about no you must use the correct oil viscosity in this engine i don't know i mean you know the engineers are always going to be particular about the way that they design things but the one thing i do know that will affect you guys is that if you use the improper oil viscosity in the engine somehow it knows and it will set a check engine light for it i've seen a lot of vehicles come in with that code improper oil engine viscosity so i don't know is it something you want to try just because it makes you feel safer by all means go for it i want to know the results in fact if you've had a vehicle a hemi engine that you've been using 1030 or 1040 in for years and years and you've never had any problem let me know i'd love to hear about it we'll make a third video so that's why i like i like a little bit more information you know and one thing i've noticed too i used to work in oregon now i'm down here in texas and a strange thing is your environment has a big effect on vehicles i saw a lot of problems in oregon with vehicles that i don't see at all down here and i see weird problems down here in texas that i never saw back in oregon so your environment has a big impact on what parts actually fail on your vehicle okay next thing i had a fair few people say you know i had 10 000 miles on my vehicle i had 5 000 miles i had 2 000 miles on my vehicle and the lifters failed guys that's not what i'm talking about at all here if you have lifter failure at that low of mileage that is purely a parts failure or an assembly error that's that's it this the issue i'm talking about here this is a progressive issue that happens over a great length of time talk 10 years plus or 100 000 miles plus okay if you're having lifter failure at that low miles absolutely you're dealing with a part failure or an engine assembly error both things happen both things happen guys so that's not what i'm talking about at all all right and now by far the most common comment that i got on that last video was people referencing the video done by another youtube channel where he says that the raised cam location is what's causing all of the issues basically the cam is too far from the crankshaft it's not being lubricated enough at low rpms to lubricate the lifters properly and that is in fact the source of the issue now i'm not going to disregard that i think there could be some literally to that for sure especially you know lower rpm there's a main oil galley that runs right down the center above the crankshaft that actually blocks the crankshaft from the camshaft so could that be potentially contributing to the issue absolutely i'm not going to deny that but i don't think that tells the whole entire story and in fact an interesting thought the 2006 to 2008 hemis and a lot of people delight in reminding me that they drop valve seats yes i know i actually have a whole series about one that did that i get it they drop valve seats i get that but the 06 to 08 hemis you don't find lifter problems on them like you do with the o9 and newer now the difference with the o9 and newer is that they have the vvt on there so what changed in the block between the 08 and 09 that now they suffer from these lifter issues now again you could certainly have a lifter issue in 06 to 08 but it's going to be far more rare than o 9 and newer so my thought process i'm trying to think what's the difference in the block with o9 and newer i know they changed some things because the cam is completely different in there and a lot of other things don't match up between the two generations so it would be really neat to actually go a little bit more in depth onto a 09 and up and see exactly what we find there but again i'm not willing to strictly say that because of that raised cam and the fairly horizontal lifters that that is your entire issue can it contribute i think yes i think there is a possibility there just because of pure physics but i think there's more to it than that so again after having all that really great feedback it actually got me really interested because again there was a lot of great thought-provoking comments in there so i wanted to do a little bit more research on this and see what else i could find because i hadn't really delved too deeply into it you know i've replaced a lot of these components but i don't really take them apart so what i did was i have a lot of actually these lifters just kind of kicking around from all the random jobs i've done over the years so i decided to take them apart and see what's going on in there and so i have a disassembled mds lifter here i have a solid lifter here and i kind of want to show you guys the inner workings of these things and how exactly this whole system works and that kind of got me going over the engine oiling system and i found something that i thought was really interesting and i hope you guys stayed at the end of the video to watch that so again one thing it seems like is that the mds lifters are by far the ones that actually suffer the most failures the solid lifters don't seem to be too bad in fact most of what the aftermarket does is they decide to eliminate the mds system entirely so they remove the solenoids from the top of the block here they replace the mds lifters with the solid lifters that are in all the other cylinders and then they use a tune to get rid of the mds system altogether now i can certainly understand that especially in a performance application you don't care about having a four-cylinder you bought a v8 you want a v8 you want all the cylinders firing just get rid of the system all together makes a lot of sense to me but i did find something very very interesting when i was taking a closer look into this now i think it's important we kind of go over how the mds system works because that kind of will showcase what i'm talking about here so basically you're shutting down four cylinders at a time so your vehicle then becomes a four cylinder right well it's shutting down cylinders one four six and seven those are the cylinders so you still have two cylinders on each side so it's an even fire situation so you don't hardly notice that you're running on four cylinders versus eight unless you have an exhaust on there in which case it sounds like pure garbage when it drops into four cylinder mode i have done that yes so anyway we're going to go over a little bit more in depth about how exactly the mds system activates and deactivates on a hemi engine that's right you guys you guess it is whiteboard time again so i want to explain exactly how the cylinder is deactivating and when it's deactivating so if you think about your standard four-stroke engine which all these engines are you've got your intake your compression your power and your exhaust stroke correct so what's happening here is the engine has already gone through its intake stroke so the fuel and air are in the cylinder and now the valves are closed for the compression stroke so the piston is coming up on the compression stroke that is when it deactivates the lifters for that cylinder now as it goes up and forms the power stroke the spark plug ignites the mixture and the piston is coming down well at this point on the exhaust stroke is when normally the exhaust valve opens it exhausts all this explosion that is happening here these gases that have formed in here but you'll notice in this case the valves stay closed that way as long as this cylinder is deactivated this piston is just going to go boom boom boom boom up and down in this cylinder with those gases now what that does is the gases in here form an air spring for the piston to essentially bounce off of to help it continue with its rotational cycle so i thought that was a really ingenious way that they were able to do that all right so now that you've figured that part out i really want to showcase to you guys exactly how the lifters themselves will collapse and allow it to shut off each of these cylinders so as i mentioned i have quite a few of these lifters kind of kicking around so here is your standard mds lifter now the only noticeable external way to tell this difference from your regular solid lifter here is that it has these pins on the side of it right there there's one on each side and also the bottom will look a little bit different between the two of them but not much difference so i went ahead and took apart one of these mds lifters because i'd never actually done that before to see what exactly was going on inside of them one interesting thing is that it actually has two of these snap rings holding in the back i've never seen that style before of stacking snap rings but anyway now then the rear most piece here this is where the push rod sets into and there's a whole dead center of that for the oil to go to now we'll talk about that more in a little bit but the next piece here this is a check ball on the end here if you look down inside there there's a little ball inside there and that allows the oil to flow in but not out now this is because this is the hydraulic portion of the lifter that takes the lash out of it so you have this little spring in here that basically if the lifter was completely out of oil this lifter here would still give you some resistance to where the push rod was not just slamming into the base of this cylinder here but what it allows oil to do is to fill up this cylinder and become almost a hard piece so that you have no valve lash in the system that's all that the rear of the lifter does and in fact that's the exact same on the solid lifter here in the back you can see that's where your push rod goes there's another check ball back here and again just the rearmost portion of this lifter here is that hydraulic lash portion the rest of this is all solid there's nothing inside there now continuing on with the mds lifter now you can see here this is the cylinder that houses our pins that you could see from the outside now these pins are spring-loaded and once they're actually collapsed that allows this cylinder to then slide up into the housing of the lifter assembly itself now behind this cylinder lies these springs now there's three springs here coiled together so those go in to the lifter housing this goes in behind those springs now what happens here is once these pins are collapsed it allows this to move independently inside the lifter all right so i want to facilitate a visual image of what's exactly happening here so i've actually removed the pins from the side of this lifter so it will collapse freely and i've also removed two of the springs in the front here so there's only the lightest spring left in here so this here is your push rod and it goes into the back of your lifter now again assume that these pins have been collapsed and assume that this is your camshaft lobe on this end you can see how much movement is allowed there by the lifter body itself without the push rod actually moving that is what is happening when these lifters are deactivated they are still moving on the cam lobes themselves they haven't changed they're still following that cam profile but they're not activating your valves any longer lost it so something to remember about these lifters is that the three springs that are in the upper portion of this lifter there are not nearly enough force to overcome the valve spring so that is why your valve's not opening but it does want to have a pretty good amount of resistance here so that the lifter roller stays firmly against the cam lobe while the lifter is deactivated you don't want it coming off of the lobe at all because then it'll start slapping the lobe and that'll really cause some wear issues so i'm sure there's a few of you right now thinking is this guy ever going to get to the point on this thing guys i promise i am but this stuff is fascinating to me and it actually all just kind of leads one step to another so now that we figured out exactly how the lifters deactivate we need to figure out how they're triggered you saw that there was pins on the body that need to be depressed in order for them to deactivate how does that happen well that leads us into the oiling system on the hemi engine and we're gonna go over that right now all right so as standard on most v8 engines you have your oil pump here on the front of the engine it is powered by a drive gear that's slid onto the crankshaft itself once the oil is pressurized it goes into the block here and goes to the crankshaft main bearings and the camshaft bearings and then it travels through various locations in the block it actually comes up out of the block here into the cylinder head and it comes up into the cylinder head through the rocker stands and into the rocker arm assemblies now it goes from there down through the push rod tubes down into the lifter itself however that is not specifically oiling the lifter housing it's main mainly oiling the lash adjusters built into the lifters themselves the mds system the multi-displacement system is oil actuated that is where these mds solenoids come in all right to explain how this works these are your mds solenoids here these are electrically activated solenoids what they're doing is they're controlling oil pressure they have a little spool valve in there so they can send oil to one location or another now the oil pressure is coming from the main galley down here comes up through the bottom here and when this solenoid is activated it sends that oil through a galley that runs alongside these lifter bores which then fills the boards with pressurized oil which then depresses those pins and collapses the lifter now as long as that oil is pressurized that lifters remains collapsed as soon as the solenoid is powered off then that oil dissipates the pressure goes away the pins lock back into place and you have again an eight-cylinder engine so you see it comes up from the bottom galley there and then once the solenoid activates it transfers it to that galley that's bored there and then it comes out there the oil fills that surround and then depresses the pins on the lifter bore now you can just see this little plug back here behind the cam sprocket that is for that oil galley valve that runs through the lifter bores and in fact there's an identical one on this side back in there and you have one here and one there now something important to note here is that these lifter oil galleys are not all connected to each other it's not a full tube that runs all the way around no in fact it is only individual to just two cylinders at a time so these two cylinders have oil galley then these two then these two and then these two they are all independent that way your mbs system can just shut off just that one cylinder out of the two so you might say well that's all well and good now i understand how that mds system works but what does that have to do with the lifter failures that we're seeing well this is where it gets really interesting and i would love to see some further research done on what i found here so you know how i said earlier that primarily most aftermarket places their fix is to get rid of the mds system entirely you replace the mds lifters with your standard lifters that are in all the other cylinders and then you get rid of the nbs solenoids and you replace those with block off plates now interestingly you can get these block off plates for the mds solenoids direct from the factory in fact these are a factory part it's part number 5303221 apple apple or aaa so this is a factory part designed to cover up that mds hole so that's what they like to do they like to get rid of that whole system entirely but their primary motive is because they don't need the four-cylinder mode they're not worried about gas mileage they're just worried about performance application does it really affect the lifter longevity well that's a tough question to answer because when you have a high performance application stuff's going to break down quicker anyway that's just the reality of how it works so when i was sitting here thinking about this i had thought so when the mds solenoids activate they're filling that oil galley that surrounds the lifter bores with pressurized oil and that is what in fact depresses those pins that deactivates the lifters correct so it's happening for both cylinders at the same time because the the oil galley basically covers side-by-side cylinders but you're only deactivating one cylinder so what's it doing on the other cylinder well that cylinder just has regular lifters so there's no pins to deactivate but you are still pressurizing the lifter bore and that got me thinking okay well where is that oil going then well clearly it's just going out the ends of the lifter bore itself and back down into the oil galley but if there's oil coming out the lifter bore then there's a good chance especially if it's pressurized oil that that oil is getting on the roller lifter too so what if the engine's best chance of getting your roller lifters lubricated is during an mds activation now this would make sense because as we all know when you're idling the nbs isn't activated it's just going to stay deactivated the whole time so if you already have a design where you have somewhat poor oiling to those roller lifters at idle well then not going into mds isn't helping because that's the time at which those roller lifters are achieving their most lubrication so what if we did this what if we replace the mds lifters with standard lifters through the whole engine and then use the tuner to not turn off the mds system but turn it on all the time keep it pressurized at all times i would love to see some extended range testing on this to see if there's any kind of issue like if we have any sort of a slightly lower oil pressure by keeping them on at all times or any problems at all or do we even have lifter failures or we see that it keeps those roller lifters lubricated at all times and we don't see a lifter failure and i was taking a closer look at these block off plates and what i found was that basically it just covers the top of the hole it's only designed to keep oil from coming out the top of the block but if you'll remember when we were researching that oil direction that oil is coming from the lower galley and then being diverted by the solenoid into the lifter galley and pressurizing the lifter bores this plug does not prevent that from happening it is fully open in there so that oil is now constantly going into those lifter bores and pressurizing them is that what's fixing the issue this whole time is it not so much that we're removing the mds lifters but the fact that we're constantly having that pressurized oil to lift our bores and it's lubricating the roller lifters i'm not certain but it seems really likely to me and i'd love for you guys to give me your feedback on it so there it is guys that is our video for today i want to thank you guys so much for watching i hope you heard something that really kind of made you think and again these are always just my opinions keep coming with the really great feedback that you have i know you will people are opinionated they're going to give their opinion on this matter all right you guys so that is it for me today if you want to follow me on instagram it's at reignited.tx and if you want to know why in the world i have a 5 9 block just sitting right here i'll go ahead and link that video as well so you guys thank you so much for absolutely everything we'll see you next time on reignited

Channel: Reignited - Cycle and Automotive

Views: 391,231

Keywords: 5.7 Hemi lifter failure, hemi, dodge, charger, fatal flaw, hemi tick, hemi lifters, hemi 5.7, 5.7 hemi camshaft and lifters, 5.7 hemi camshaft and lifter replacement, lifters fail, hemi lifter, hemi lifter failure, hemi tick 6.4, hemi tick charger, hemi tick repair, hemi ticking noise, lifter failure 6.4 hemi, lifter failure 5.7 hemi, hemi 6.4, lifter failure, dodge 5.7 hemi ticking noise, hemi lifter tick, dodge ram 5.7 hemi ticking noise, hemi tick challenger

Id: 8lj4mLhAI4Y

Length: 26min 4sec (1564 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 04 2021