12 Critical E-Bike Considerations Before You Buy

hi i'm lloyd from bumstead bicycles and this newest video is going to be the 12 things to consider when you're buying an e-bike so first thing is going to be what are you going to use it for there's multiple multiple uses you can use an e-bike for is it exercise is it just share recreation is it replacing a car so that you don't have to use a car is it your rving and you want to use it to get around the campground are you a mountain biker are you a road bike rider that's just looking for you know a little extra help to keep up on the rides so first thing you got to ask yourself is what are you gonna do with the bike what you know what are your dreams of this or what are your intended purposes then on that then you can narrow it down because there's so many different e-bikes part of why you're probably watching this is you're searching the internet trying to figure out the right bike so let me see if i can help with that recreational riders most of the time you're going to look for something with comfort not maybe the hugest range not too critical could be range distance those kind of things but most of the time i found for the recreational riders maybe they haven't ridden a bike in a while so comfort seems to be the biggest issue so let me show you a couple different bikes kind of in that comfort aspect would be something like this you have a nice wide comfortable seat a step through frame which makes it very easy to get on and off of the bike you have a swept back handlebar you notice me sitting on this bike's a little small but you sit very upright um very comfortable to ride it's kind of in a relaxed riding position or a lot of people that are just getting back into cycling maybe they're not going to go very far you want it to be a comfortable e-bike now in comparison to that this model still comfortable to ride but a little narrower saddle a more flattened handlebar fixed riding position a lot of people on this one we would call more of a commuter bike you're going to be sitting a little more a little more weight on the handlebars a little more forward riding position now doesn't mean somebody that likes comfort bikes couldn't change this bar or stem put a different saddle on get to this riding position but from the set up more of a commuter type bike you use this maybe you're going 10 or 15 miles each way to work or you're a little more of an avid rider you've been riding more traditional bikes and you want to go a little further a little faster but i've had a lot of my customers that will they like some of the other features of this bike and we will put the more comfort things on you might be riding a lot of dirt trails or where you live it's dirt roads or you know maybe there's snow or things to where the fat tires come into play you maybe i you know you could go hunting or camping and you need you know racks and and things to where you can carry gear um you might maybe it's just you want to tow it on the back of the heart put it on the back of the rv and ride around the campground bike like this i to me this is almost like a mini bike from back in the 60s with a with a motor on it with this style of seat and handlebars you're probably not going to pedal it much but you can buzz around the campground or around your neighborhood and just have some fun on it not going to get much exercise but it is an e-bike and might be the right thing for someone that they're not interested in peddling a bike but they want something electric and legal on the streets that doesn't require a driver's license you can go that route again more of a commuter style bike here so again different bikes different aspects depending on what you're going to do with it you narrow it narrow your choice down based on your usage and then go from there number two on the list would be budget there's a huge range of prices i see some of the stuff i mean you can buy little almost scooter type bikes three four five hundred dollars there's high performance mountain and road bikes that can be ten thousand dollars how do you know where to go traditionally in bike shops you're not going to find anything under a thousand dollars most of the stuff that you find below that is going to be smaller inexpensive may serve the purpose i you know i'm i'm not saying they're horrible i'm just saying you need to understand what you're getting when you buy a three or four hundred dollar electric bike some of them are almost more scooter they don't even have pedals but i've seen some in that 5 600 range and if it's you're just doing small minimal riding might serve the purpose for most of us we're maybe wanting a little full-size bike you're wanting not necessarily performance but better reliability longevity being able to be serviced a lot of the bikes below a thousand dollars not much ways of getting them service that you know that won't exceed the price of the bike when you take it to a repair shop so from a thousand dollars to two thousand dollars you start getting into that range of entry level recreational maybe haven't you know you haven't been on a bike in years and at least in that thousand to two thousand range you're going to get a bike that's going to be a little more reliable going to be able to be repaired and give you years of years of use versus maybe only a year of use and you have to throw it away or get rid of it something that you could keep for multiple years usually above two thousand dollars you start getting in maybe you've already had an e-bike maybe you're an avid cyclist that you're already riding on your normal bike is a two or three thousand dollar bike and you're looking for something just that's of that quality or above that's when you start getting into the the bikes in those price points so again depending on where you fall is where your budget can be you know so you know at the very entry level not much you can do for repair might serve the purpose to start that midpoint at a thousand two thousand twenty five hundred you're going to get serviceable bikes lots of choices tons of choices above that it's because you're already more of an avid cyclist maybe you're gonna do true mountain biking and you need full suspension and a lot of other features besides it just being e maybe you're a road bike rider looking to just try and keep up on that club ride and you just don't have the fitness level so you buy that quality of bike with e and that gets you in that three to six thousand dollar you know that's what it's going to cost those regular bikes that you on a group ride could be three to five thousand so that put you gotta understand that budget for the higher number three on my list is size most manufacturers will put some kind of a fit guide on there um there's some companies that they only have one size bike or maybe they have a step through and a standard frame if you have the ability to go into a shop and get size that really helps the most important thing is inseam you can have someone that's six feet tall and five foot eight and their inseam can be the same so the standover requirement of us of a bike you know how high is it right here when you stand over this bike is critical step throughs we can go into some other aspects of the sizing but on a standard frame bike you need to be able to stand over this top tube and not be right over now the other aspect is if you stand over this top tube and you're six foot four and you know you've got five or six inches clearance when you go to adjust your seat the seat's going to be too high out of the frame now your seats here and your handlebars are here so most critical thing first is inseam second then is your torso then your overall height so where that can come into play also is maybe you're close on sizing maybe you could ride a medium and a large then it's a matter for your torso how because if the frame gets bigger this way it also gets longer this way so it again and stuff so you want to balance that out so just like in anything sizing in your shoes sizing in your clothing it's important the bike if it's too big or too small could either be dangerous or very uncomfortable so in either instance sizing you know you want to know your stand over height inseam maybe then you know you might know this on your own you have longer arms a short torso long legs whatever those features are take that into consideration so even on a step through bike where standover's not critical the frame is smaller like this is a small they also do it in a medium so the problem let's say with me on a small is now not only will the seat be way too low but it's really close here so this bike as you can see probably in the picture it looks smaller and even if i raise this seat up to where i need it to be it's still going to be small here and now suddenly my handlebars are considerably lower than they would be on the approp the right size bike where things are proportioned properly so definitely do your homework on sizing you know know your inseam know your overall height and compare not only height this way but top right length this way and consider inside next on the list i say standard versus step through frame and pros and cons to each um we're all familiar with a standard frame bike some people over the years would call it a men's or boys bike the step through frame which again used to be oh well that's a girl's bike so what we found over the years is that let's throw all that out the window we can be either or they're generic guys or girls doesn't matter pros to a standard frame just in bikes in general traditional frames in non-e-bikes you had a stronger lighter frame if you went to a traditional so high performance bikes would always be that triangle style frame in e-bikes the frames are considerably strong enough that even in a step there especially for recreational riding still plenty strong enough for again recreational riding now if you're doing trigger doing the more high performance road or mountain you're going to have more of a standard frame so pros and cons standard frame you've got to swing a leg over you've got to work and then you've got to worry about stand over height as we talked about inside so advantage of a step through frame is that you don't have to swing a leg over you can step through you don't have to worry about when you're getting mounting or dismounting the bike landing on that bar um if you've added a luggage rack and maybe a basket or a bag swinging a leg over gets even harder so basic advantage to the step through is just ease of mounting and dismounting the bike huge advantage for a lot of us especially as we get older but just in general terms it's just easier to get on and off the bike and or you know maybe you're commuting and you're in street clothes and you know swing it with pants or a skirt for women this is much easier to get on and off of so standard versus step through pros and cons to each again depending on your use of the bike that hopefully will help you decide next on the list is hub drive versus mid-drive motors which are going to i'll show you both but what you're going to find at least that i have is the more recreational riders are going to use a hub drive the more performance again kind of at that higher end on the budget are going to use the mid drive so a hub drive motor as it in the wording the motor is built into the rear hub of the bike i've seen some bikes with a front hub but in general you're going to see it at the hub in the rear of the bike on a mid drive over here the motor is built in at the crank assembly so when you pedal the bike drives the back wheel also the motor drives it you can't see it in here but there's a sprocket in here so the motor then drives the back wheel in this instance you have a traditional wheel in the rear versus an electric motor wheel a lot of shops like that because ease of changing flats the more performance riders like it because it has a much more natural feel to in coinciding with how your norm your regular bike rides is considerably more expensive than the hub drive systems but again more performance riders you're wanting to keep up with a group of riders that are on traditional bikes this will fit in better with that doesn't have the brute acceleration of a hub drive motor there's pros and cons to that but overall then one of the things you have to watch if you go to mid-drive too is that you're going to wear out chain drivetrain components faster because now you have a motor putting stress on the cassette freewheel chain all of your drivetrain parts it's just a maintenance thing you got to make sure you have that checked and maintained a little more because they will wear out faster than they will on a traditional bike so advantage of mid drive would be the more high performance riders the people with the over two thousand dollar budget they want they're already riding regular bikes and they want it to feel like a regular bike and just have a little bit of assist a lot of the mid-drive motors too don't have any sort of throttle or any way to get you back home if you don't want a pedal you have to pedal the whole time where a lot of the recreational hub drive motors you do have a throttle so you have the option of not pedaling so definitely something to consider there so again hub drive versus mid depends on again back to use what are you trying to do with it how do you want the bike to feel for a lot of customers i'd suggest test riding volvo that that'll answer a lot of whether you like or dislike a particular stuff another thing to consider on on buying an e-bike is the the power of the mode you'll see bikes with 250 watt 350 watt 500 watt and 750 watt thing to consider there is the terrain you're riding on and the weight of the rider and maybe the things he's attaching to the bike a kid's trailer you know towing extra weight so i mean it's just like power in your car or truck you need more power because you live in the mountains or you're trying to go faster most from what i've seen the the 250 watt usually is on the more economy stuff or somewhere where very flat you're just looking for a little assist 350 seems to be pretty good again it stays more towards on the budget end of it if you're right if you're a fairly lightweight rider if you're not real hilly terrain and you're not worried about going above 20 miles an hour 350 probably plenty of power for you 500 seems to be the most popular the advantage to 500 is even if you're a lighter weight rider you can easily go 20 miles an hour if there's hills in their area you can get up the hills with light pedaling or no pedaling and go at a decent speed if you're a heavier rider it will help you maintain the higher speeds it will again get you up hills 750 seems to be good for if you're doing maybe the fat tire bike that weighs considerably more you're doing hills you're a bigger rider so 750 is at the extreme we find most people 500 is plenty but again if you're falling into under your use or weight limits of things you may experiment with some of the 750s to see if you need that extra power so main thing for the power is again back to where are you going to ride it and how fast do you want to go you know all the considerations of you and your bike and do you need the power to to do what you want another thing to consider is the weight of the bike as far as riding it because you have the electric it a lot of people well it's not that critical because you know i've got the motor to help me so and that is true i in test riding bikes and riding e-bikes you know the the overall weight to me isn't when i'm out pedal even when i turn the electric off and pedal it not especially on flat ground not too critical the bike's ride is still pretty nice where it comes into play though is moving the bike around putting it on a rack to um to carry it on maybe the back of your car or vehicle do you need to load it in the back of a truck at home even if it's not up a flight of stairs maybe it's two or three steps you got to get up it's are you going to work on it yourself changing a flat tire you know house are you strong enough to physically lift this bike up it can be an issue again in just the overall it's not for the ride quality it's for the being able to move it around load it on a bike rack um get it up the stairs if if need be some people live in apartments and they have to take it upstairs with them lighter is going to be better other people they're not gonna transport it they're just gonna wheel it right into their garage or the backyard probably won't be an issue um but definitely consider it you know do you need to lift this in any way are you going to need to work on it yourself is you know all of the reason reasons for the weight will be not in the writing but will be in the management of it when you're not riding it you know getting it up and down so definitely consider wait for transportation of the bike where you're gonna store it do you need to pick it up so definitely weight can be a consideration next on my list is throttle versus no throttle so there's different kinds of throttles depending on the bike you buy and then there's some bikes that have no throttle let's start with the no throttle that tends to be on the mid-drive systems you will find most mid-drives but not all but most mid-drives are pedal assist only no it no way to throttle the bike in any way again you'll find that on the more performance bikes they're not interested in having a throttle they're interested in just having some assistance i know bosch which is one of the big makers of most of the mid drives they do offer a throttle on some models most of a lot of the bike shop brands tend to shy away from a throttle but i think you'll start seeing more of it so there are bikes without throttle definite uses for it again you need to decide whether it's an advantage or that you don't need it type of thing then when it comes to throttle there's also different styles of throttle this particular model is a thumb style throttle there are also i think here my store everything is thumb at the moment but they also have more of a twist throttle usually they'll have one it's just a quarter of the grip and you twist it like on a motorcycle some of them will be the full grip and it's a full throttle i tend to prefer the thumb other people like the twist so the advantage of a throttle is is on the ride for whatever reason you don't want to pedal let's say your knee starts hurting you're just tired you just don't want a pedal and you need to get home there you go got an accelerator just like on your car you push that thing and off you go that seems to be for most people the advantage is for whatever reason pick it whether it's health issues whether they're just tired maybe they just don't want to pedal they're just buzzing around the neighborhood having fun you know they're riding it like a scooter but for whatever reason the throttle can be enjoyable or a useful tool if you're tired or not feeling well or something hurts and it hurts to pedal having that option that doesn't mean you have to use it all the bikes would throw almost all bikes with throttle also have pedal assist or you can just ride it as a regular bike but definitely a useful tool there are instances certain maybe a city a bike trail a park that says you can't have a throttle there's different classes of e-bikes certain look for if that's the case i would look for a brand that the throttle is easily removed from this manufacturer you can unplug the wire and undo a little screw and remove it so let's say you go to a campground or a state park and they say no throttles a couple little tools and now you comply with their regulations there so if you do have a throttle another added feature look for ways to remove it so that if somewhere you're going requires that the bike have no throttle so you've been looking at a bunch of e-bikes and we're going through this list the next thing i'd like to talk about are different options for them so we've talked about the different you know sizing and different things so some of the options on a bike could be fat tire it could be that it's a folding bike it could be that it's you know designed as a commuter bike as a recreation bike it could be that it's more like a scooter type of a thing so those options again depending on your use some have multiple options some of them are folding and fat tire look at those options especially so for options versus accessories accessories things that you can easily bolt on or that maybe come with it such as racks but options are going to be more part of the bike you know is it folding isn't it you can't make a normal size tire bike into a fat tire bike once you've already made the purchase they're not that is not available to you um does it have built-in lights versus not built-in lights again lights can be an accessory it could be an option that comes on the bike size of batteries can be an option i know some manufacturers will let you choose what what size of battery comes so think of your battery like a gas tank you can have longer distances another option like i just on these two bikes we pointed out they have suspension forks um can be added to a bike like behind us here this bike does not have a suspension fork could be added but at considerable cost so do you do you need that suspension are the roads really bumpy you know will that make it more comfortable there's also on the more performance in there's rear suspension so you would have a mountain bike on a mountain bike do you just need front suspension or will rear suspension help in your riding so again most of those options you got to look at and based on your use or things that aren't easily switched out on a bike just as a comparison it's really easy to switch out a seat it's not easy to switch out your frame so look look at the options again depending on your use is that option of benefit is it not a benefit is it worth paying extra for because especially because to add it later would be a considerable expense and not so much of an expense at the time of purchase so definitely consider all the options another thing to consider when buying an e-bike will be the accessories tons of accessories so some of the ones that already come on this so here's a bike with i would say virtually no accessories on it other than maybe the adjustable stem this can be an accessory if your bike has a standard fixed stem the stem is adjustable but you'll notice not much else on the bike so move one model over now suddenly you have fenders and a rear rack as that can be considered accessories so they come on this bike i can easily put a rack and fenders on this bike um there's a front racks there's baskets um then there's lighting systems that can be accessories again on this bike it comes with a headlight but most bikes don't necessarily have it i actually prefer headlights headlight and tail light as an accessory rather than hardwired into the bike again that's just my preference saddles as an accessory you know from the factory you don't get to choose the saddle but one or two bolts saddles come off there's big wide cushy cruiser seats there's little narrow performance seats i don't shy away from a particular bike just because of saddle easily easily switched out thing to consider again on on choosing a bike and accessories you start running out of room on a lot of the handlebars i found a lot of the e-bikes because of between the handlebar assembly that all the cables that are in front of here a lot of baskets don't easily fit depending on where the control panel or dashboard is mounted here again a lot of baskets want to clamp around the handlebars not much room here so consider your accessories will you know you might order a basket online and you get it and you figure out oh it doesn't fit you've got to know the diameter your handlebar is there clearance good example if your bike has a front suspension fork a lot of baskets have struts that go down that need to mount on the front wheel you can't use that because that inhibits the fork from moving up and down you need a basket that only clamps around the stem and handlebars not down to the front wheel that's probably been our biggest thing on accessories is will it fit um a lot of let's use rear racks as an example in their description they will say universal fit my fun to that is yeah universally fits nothing um they usually have to be adapted in some way if you're pretty handy at you know bending or moving or figuring out the wide range of hardware that comes with it no big deal you make it fit it is universal um other people you know the usually the directions aren't very clear and they're like they've purchased even from us so rear rack take it home and they come back it doesn't fit they bring the bike in we can make it fit again it's so on on a lot of these accessories it you know pay attention to where it's going to mount on your bike is it compatible with the bike you've purchased does the manufacturer offer the accessories sometimes that helps you buy a rack direct from the manufacturer of your bike it's more than likely going to bolt right up you buy you know like this front rack is made with the it already has holes in the frame screws right on very simple installation if you bought something similar to this from another manufacturer and these tabs aren't in the same spot or they're made to mount to the front doesn't work so well so a lot of times look to the original manufacturer a lot of my customers are looking at cell phone holders that's a big accessory again look at where it's going to mount on the handlebar is the room here there's a lot of extra room others not so much room on the handlebar or it's curved here's a good example we have some trouble because of this this amount of distance here but it goes from wide to thin it's curved a lot of times you know now the cell phone instead of mounting perfect it's off to the side so again consider all of those things on your accessories will it fit you know is it compatible with my bike again huge range of accessories but we all hate to make that purchase and then find out it doesn't fit our bike so definitely look at all the accessories but consider is it the right accessory for my gun other accessories to consider that don't bolt to the bike would be things that one that would bolt to you helmets use them don't use them personal choice highly recommended you're more than likely going to go a lot faster than you would on a traditional bike and really speed's not the issue at some point you're going to fall down and the the new helmets these days are very light very comfortable adjustable talk to a doctor or nurse they're going to tell you it's going to save your life so again different styles different types my comment to customers on helmets is you want to like the way it fits and you want to like the way it looks just like clothing if one of those don't fall into play you're not going to use it so definitely try them on there's tons of different features and things but the important thing is try it on make sure it fits most of them highly adjustable they've come up with some great sizing features now to make them fit really well some some of the helmets now are specific for e-bikes a little higher crash ratings something definitely to look into especially if you're somebody wanting to go a little faster maybe you're riding a lot in traffic you might want even a little more protection than just the traditional bike helmet but highly recommended that you consider a helmet another thing is maybe depending on where you're going to park the bike or where you're going you want that bike to be there when you get back you want to lock it there's chain locks there's u-locks cable locks i'm not going to go into the pros and cons of the different locks but it only takes a minute for somebody to steal your bike if it's not locked up it's it's heartbreaking when you walk out of 7-eleven or the starbucks or wherever you just i was just gone for a minute and the bike is gone and so even minimal locking up will keep that that person that's just uh you know they see the bike there they weren't intending on stealing a bike but they're like hey and they jump on it and go they can they can get it in a minute but with some kind of lock on there at least you're going to slow them down if you're locking it somewhere where it's higher prime or maybe you know you're it's outside the rv and you're asleep inside the rv you've got a couple of nice e-bikes there you want to use maybe some heavier duty protection so that when you wake up in the morning they're still good so definitely considering your purchase um purchase a lock that fits the needs of where you're going to lock in for how long something to consider i don't know if you know we don't talk about it much in the shop but people that brought it up would be where are you gonna store your bike you know can you hang it from hooks um leave it outside garage shed carrying up the stairs into your apartment that huge consideration on on maybe on which style of bike you get you know storage is important these are mechanical devices that you know don't do so well if you leave them out in the weather security you want to make sure they're protected so that they don't get stolen so whether it's your garage a shed or in the house if it's outside you have some kind of cover maybe under the patio the web the weather is hard on bicycles whether electric or not so definitely consider you know how much room do you have to store the bike is is it easily gotten in and out of do you need to you know back to the weight thing if the bike's heavy and you need to store it on some kind of storage hooks or something to get it off the floor could be a consideration some of the bikes with hydraulic brakes you can't you don't want to store them upside down because it will get air in the brake lines again look at that you know is is this bike too big to fit where you need it to go versus something else you know do you need a smaller bike because you only have so much room to put it um if you're storing in this shed there's probably no electrical out let in there is the battery easily removed so you can leave the bike in the shed take the battery in the house and charge it in the house things those kind of things for storage is like okay is there an electrical outlet is is the bike gonna be protected from the weather will it get damaged in any way such as flipping it upside down so consider storage when you're buying a bike too it may be the difference between one model over another because of where you need to store it so what i consider very important i've been a bike mechanic since i was 15 years old i've been working on bikes my whole life these new e-bikes a lot of them you're buying direct from the manufacturer they tell you what a great warranty they have and everything's wonderful till it's not and even the brands i sell and whether it's regular bicycles or e-bikes things can go wrong it's a mechanical device i don't know a single person that hasn't had something go wrong with their car over the years you know when you pay tens and tens of thousands of dollars for your car they don't run perfect forever an e-bike won't run perfect forever either you may be really if you're really mechanically inclined like myself might not be an issue you buy some tools you get the stuff you watch some youtube videos no big deal for most of us though like even myself there's things i don't repair myself i've i've talked to different people and they've been into different bike shops there are bike shops so you will want to look at this in your area and maybe even if you're not considering buying an e-bike from them what are their service policies so you get a flat tire on the back of your e-bike and it's a hub drive motor and you're like i don't want to mess with that and you wheel it down to your local bike shop and they say we don't work on any e-bikes and you said but it's just a flat tire and they turn you away because it's an e-bike other shops will maybe do you know you might ask maybe they'll fix flat tires they'll fix the bike part of it a chain a brake adjustment but diagnosing an electrical problem maybe you're hey the e-bike's just not working it won't turn on or it's running a lot slower than it did if they don't sell that brand they may say we won't do that part of it so shop your area for bike shops before you even start looking at the e-bikes and find out is there service in the area and how much service i mean even our shop as much as i'd like to work on every single brand i can't there's parts availability technical assistance from some manufacturers is non-existent they have nobody on site to help me diagnose what's wrong with theirs [Music] it might be a proprietary part and i can't get the part i've now spent an hour trying to fix your bike to find out the manufacturer has no parts has anything i can't bill you for that hour the bike's not fixed so that's kind of one of the reasons why the shop might have that policy mike why are you turning my business away well sometimes that there are reasons why and unfortunately the e-bike industry there's not a lot of standards or regulations and you know you might be forced to deal direct with them and that's okay hey there's plenty of online shop um e-bikes there's plenty of e-bikes that have great customer service have available parts and your local shops still won't deal with it i but you need to find that out because somewhere down the line you're probably going to need some help with that e-bike and and definitely look into that how are the reviews of customer service on on the brand you're considering whatever brand that is take some of that with a grain of salt because there's always going to be unhappy customers but overall you know do they have a range of replacement parts so a year down the road you know when something wears out can you get it a lot of these bikes are disc brakes you know what brand of disc brake is it are those pads available um even one of the brands i carry one of their models as of right now i can only get the brake pads from them that scares me i i would much rather be able to have multiple places to buy a part from um other of their models i can get brake pads just about anywhere so and brake pads wear out it's a normal part of riding the bike so definitely service is going to be a huge thing over the next couple of years especially if you get this e-bike and you ride it a lot things wear out even if it's not a warranty issue it's just a matter of getting brake pads getting a chain you know whatever part on it that you need that it's not warranty it's just you used it up so definitely do a little bit of research on on service maybe you're here would be an example you're rving and you're out somewhere you know you're 2 000 miles from home you're near a big city and something happens to your e-bike and you're trying to find a shop that will work on it and four shops later not a single one will work on it now you're down [Music] i'm hoping that over the next few years that won't be an issue that most bike shops will you know get more and more adept at working on on e-bikes and the different models and we will have access more and more to parts availability and be able to to service just about anybody you like but as of right now it can be a huge problem so definitely look in your area for a shop that will service the bike that you're looking to purchase you

Channel: Bumstead's Bicycles

Views: 250,555

Keywords: Bumstead's Bicycles, bike shop ontario, best bike shop

Id: xOJ7fMdbDus

Length: 43min 25sec (2605 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 15 2021