“We’re worth $1.25M, so why is he afraid to get a $15 gym membership?”

have you ever wondered why people suddenly seem to be so obsessed with creating generational wealth or all the unwritten rules of money that we have in America that we follow but no one actually tells us why every week I'm going to be writing my new observations about money and psychology on a special podcast newsletter you can get it for free at iwt.com podcast newsletter you will not find this material anywhere else so get on the newsletter for free at iwt.com podcast newsletter to hear about money and psychology every single week directly from me I find Finance discussions intimidating threatening almost at times awkward I'm very avoidant to the conversations Jesse is not a lot I see would you agree with that yes I am very fly by the seat of the dance how would you describe the way you feel right now mad at myself because I don't think I realize what I created [Music] what did you create an environment where you know Jesse doesn't see the big vision of what he's capable of doing I'm sorry Jesse love you so much but like it's so clear that you're so anxious on this conversation the deeper we get in because like you're using like buzzwords to try and like talk effectively instead of just being like your yourself I want Jesse to be interested in what we're doing with our money and I feel like I I created that like I've created this dependent relationship that's not it's not sustainable meet Stacy who's 37 and Jesse who's 38. they've been married for 11 years and they live in Canada what makes them fascinating is not the fact that Stacy makes five times what Jesse makes it is the dynamic between them for example when they got invited to be on this podcast they first attended a screening call with my producer and here's what Stacy wrote I booked time Thursday for the screening call and added my husband Jesse's email to the invite he may be able to join too this is actually a huge red flag we require both Partners to be on the call we state that very clearly so the fact that she took the lead and said he may be able to attend got our antenna up how would you handle it if you had a relationship Dynamic where one person took the lead on everything and wished that the other would get engaged you can watch this entire episode on YouTube and I always love to do that because it lets you see their body language and facial expressions which gives you a whole new insight into the dynamic between the two of them all right let's get to it the day I applied to go to the show to be on the show was a day where Jessica and I were arguing around he was debating to get a gym membership so he's had some physical ailments in the last couple of years his physiotherapist recommended a gym member rather a treadmill we don't want to buy a treadmill to fit in the house so there's a gym near our house and near Jesse's business um that he can easily go to it's like 15 bucks a month and he hemmed and hot about like whether we could afford it and I was like we're not poor anymore we can afford that it made me realize hey he doesn't understand that and B that such an insignificant amount of money per month he felt like he had to figure a way around not spending it instead of just talking to me about the expense and so what happened we had like a discussion about it I was like we're not poor anymore like you can get this and I think it still took him two weeks to actually buy the gym membership when you said we're not poor anymore what was Jesse's response yeah I think yeah I know but but what what but like I can figure out a way to like not spend this money or maybe I'll look into cheaper options but I'm like you're not really going to find a cheaper gym it's already a discount gyms a lot of very sensible reasons did it work yes but it took him a couple I think a couple weeks to to buy it and like pull the trigger Jesse what happened in that conversation what do you remember the first glimmer of the treadmill discussion being I dragged my feet on a lot of like random expenses because I'm always trying to save money uh I just have it in my head that well I mean I don't personally make a whole lot so I feel like the household doesn't officially make a whole lot which is not really the case it's about a week later I did finally pull the trigger got the membership and uh I've been trying to do as much stepping or walking sorry as uh as I can cool I'm glad you got the membership thank you would you consider that discussion or series of discussions a success yes oh 100 I still try and tighten my belt and to Stacy's point I do it nonsensically at times as as this instance was I'm just a very uncomfortable spending money uh always been like that yes yeah all right gotcha um when you eat out do you eat every single thing on your plate yes your parents taught you that my father Yes what did he say uh oh God a lot of like father-esque things like if you don't eat that there's starving children in Africa was a very common line um oh God uh you can't leave the dinner table till you're done that sort of thing okay okay cool all right I got it I don't even like spending money on public transit if I if it's within you know tens of kilometers maybe I'll bike it doesn't matter weather or anything uh just to save myself six bucks if it's raining I think a more rational person I feel would probably just spend the money for public transit uh whereas I would prefer not to got it all right hearing what you just told me Jesse and really listening to yourself and what you just said to me do you hear any themes I noticed uh like that I'm very I don't want to say miserly but that's probably a really good word about it uh to use majorly means what uh I want to keep what possession I have uh because I don't I don't have yeah marginally is a poor word because I don't I feel like I don't have a lot and for the longest time I didn't were somewhat better I don't have a very uh steady income for the past year because I just started a new business so it's been really messing with my brain on uh how much funds we have available to spend uh so what else do you notice about your answers to me if you were like a scientist examining the transcript of what you just told me what would you note uh uh that I'm uncomfortable uh spending uh nervous um uncertain um because he's not involved in the finances he doesn't know where that threshold is he still thinks that threshold for what we can spend was the same when we were in our early 20s I want Jesse to be able to be like I'm getting this gym membership it's 15 this is the decision I'm making and just buy it this is what I mean when I say focus on the thirty thousand dollar questions not the three dollar questions or in this case the 15 gym membership questions Jesse's gone for such a long time agonizing over whether to join this gym all for fifteen dollars imagine the costs of worrying about a 15 purchase and all the opportunities that you're leaving aside and with people who worry about tiny questions like this it's never just one purchase in fact with Jesse there was a worn out bag that he didn't want to replace there was a desktop computer that he used until it completely failed he bikes or walks around town to save six dollars even when it's raining my point is not that you should just spend money on everything my point is that some people live their entire lives trying to spend as little money as possible and that has significant costs I was 18 just in my first year at University and uh to no money 19. yeah no money no money I was a musician uh dropping out of college going on tour when did you start to make some amount of money a comfortable amount of money 26 27. so let's go back to um when you were in your early 20s even 25 26 27 when you would talk about money what were those conversations like our roles were very much reversed because uh Stacy was in school until she was 24 25 24 yeah 24. uh and I had a full-time job uh just uh in retail since I was the I'm not one for talking finances and I was the one with all the funds we really didn't have a lot of conversations back then because we stayed in a really really cheap apartment so it wasn't that difficult to live the life we wanted without actually thinking about anything and it seems like you were on the upswing with your income at that point as well okay yes yes all right so at what age did the roles reverse were you Stacy started making more money 27. so you started making more than him what changed when you started making more than him I made the life decisions like anything that was a financial life decision so we had this huge lump sum for a down payment and then we went to find another home I made the decisions around how we saved for that how much we put down and did you get Jesse involved in those decisions take it as I'm like I don't remember probably not probably very little yeah it's more like I I do all the homework who is the one who tracks to spending makes sense of the spending manages the spending so there's that Stacy okay who's the one who plans Investments decisions about big okay that's Stacy so Stacy you do everything with the money yes all right so I'm like very much a type a planner organized you don't say no shocking so you do the homework what does that mean homework we had a lump sum of money how much is it yeah remember 200 Grand you know it was up to me to figure out like where could we find it for the home what was going to be the best value so that we could live the life we wanted to live um and it was up to you because what Jesse is not a planner oh Jesse would you agree with that yes I'm very fly by the seat of the pants and Jesse what is your role as it relates to money in your relationship uh not a lot you know I once remember I hired a consultant when my business was in trouble and he came in he took a look at all the numbers and he said tell me what you were doing when your business was at its peak and tell me why you stopped so I walked him through all the initiatives that we used to do and I laid out all the very rational reasons that we stopped it the cost of Revenue was too high for this program Etc he gave it some thought and he said I recently spoke to another CEO business is also in trouble and he had very good reasons for every decision that he made just like you but you can have all the right reasons and still get the wrong outcome in Stacy and Jesse's case they both have stories that are not serving them and certainly not getting them the outcome they want or at least Stacy wants Stacy describes herself as type A which by the way is not really a thing and they both agree that Jesse is bad with money but how would they ever know they've never really given Jesse responsibility and accountability over money itself how much time do you spend thinking about productivity about what coffee to have in the morning about how much email you can get through about when are you going to slip in an extra 15 minutes to tackle those emails I find that we are obsessed with productivity with high intensity work but we spend almost no time thinking about how to build the skill of resting and relaxation think about it what do most people do they sit down on the couch they watch a little Netflix that's the extent to how much we really think about rest and recuperation but any professional athlete knows you need rest and recuperation any writer knows that after a few hours you've got to step away I want us all to take rest and recuperation seriously for me I travel I read I engage with trolls on social media although I don't know if that's healthy for me what is it for you I'd like to introduce you to this episode's sponsor calm which can help you build the skills of rest and recuperation calm helps you stress less sleep more and live a happier healthier life and calm is known for all types of meditations that they offer for Sleep anxiety work even relationships but they have other things that a lot of 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spend their time looking at Rings picking out cake what kind of flower arrangements you know what kind of research I was doing I was researching cooling mechanisms to wear under my heavy wedding outfit that's because it was going to be hot my outfit was heavy and I sweat a lot all right that's the level of rigor that I applied to my wedding day now I recently learned that when you sweat you lose electrolytes which can make you feel dehydrated and give you headaches cramps fatigue you don't just lose them from working out it can be after having a few glasses of wine or running around all day doing errands so it's important to replace those electrolytes and on today's episode I'm partnering with element which is a drink mix to replace your electrolytes no sugar no coloring I actually asked my readers for feedback on our sponsors and I got a ton of responses about element let me read them to you Anna said I drink it every day I have difficulty staying hydrated without it Harry said I love 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questions asked you have nothing to lose this deal is only available through my Link at drink lmnt.com ramit r-a-m-i-t you grew up or or lower middle class lower middle class and uh what about you Stacy what did you grow up you grew up the same yeah yeah are both your parents together are they separated no they separated uh when I was uh five yeah uh who did you live with primarily uh my mother okay and what's your mom like uh she is also very um cautious about her money and spending we both were raised by immigrant mothers and we we were both raised to be like make the most of what you have work really hard to have what you have and like don't take stuff for granted Jesse takes that really to heart and I think I'm at a point in my life where we were both like that I think we're on the same page I don't think we'd be where we are today if we didn't have that mentality when we were younger what do you remember her saying about money growing up well we didn't like enjoy anything like we didn't go on vacations um we went on one uh my entire childhood yeah like my parents sacrificed a lot so that they could help pay for my University but I'm proactive where so my uh my mum and I think my dad um who are still together they think life happens to them I think I control my own destiny and I've lived my entire life with that Mo so um where'd you get that slider fight mode is like what I live in constantly so I'm always thinking plan a b or c yes are they the same as you yes my brother yeah I have one brother I'd say yeah so you both have taken control of your lives you sort of carved out your own path and would you say that your parents are still more passive yes wow that seems to have hit a nerve yes bless them but they are they drive me crazy they're passive like what they don't want to confront any issue uh restaurant sends the wrong thing they just take it they never send it back that kind of thing yes they will get taken advantage of they are retired but like don't take advantage of like their retirement yeah how are they doing financially I don't know why what they don't they don't tell us what yeah so I think do you know how much money they made when you were growing up or whatever yeah like I'd say we were like lower middle class as well my dad worked for the government had like an average salary and it was just him my mom stayed home so you decided to take control your money you're on top of it how many different Excel spreadsheets and uh budgets do you have tell the truth one Google spreadsheet but it probably has 20 hidden tabs over the last um 10 years how'd I know that uh yep there's and how diligent have you been in tracking your spending let me guess extremely go ahead correct we both have used an app that I love for the last 10 years to track every expense anytime we swipe our credit card it goes in and I train Jesse to do the same thing so you do that yeah wow I am not as diligent as her but yeah it it gets a little Tracked Down to the penny even on cash and uh what does that get both of you it's very satisfying for me to have the data to tell me what we're spending on it actually helped us when we were filling in the conscious spending plan like I mean when you you personally were filling it in no no we did it together we did it together what I don't believe that 100 to be clear she filled it out once by herself prior to having the conversation with your co-worker that's not doing it together what are you talking about but we did do it again again okay before she told me we were appearing on this podcast all right fine so you track everything you're tracking like the price of Brussels sprouts over time so you can Trend that for from 2010. how much we spend on groceries per month um you know clothing Transportation how many categories do you have more than we should I like how many tell me Tell Me Oh Hang On he's gonna pull it up right now this is amazing oh my God look at that she's like finally it's been 13 years and finally someone asked me a question about my app okay tell me how many categories if you want subcategories two as well I want all of them don't don't BS me oh wow she just took like a deep swallows twice probably everybody watch however long this takes I'm gonna run completely dead air I will burn literally gigabytes right now just watching them look he's still counting this is unbelievable uh 32. 32 cat wow so simple you ever hear me say that phrase fight for Simplicity in your finances you ever heard me yeah she's going yeah she goes yeah that's a great phrase I chose not to adopt that that's great for other people not for us I'm learning I'm learning okay this is hilarious but also [ __ ] insane tracking four categories like in my conscious spending plan is good tracking 32 categories is absolutely Bonkers and it gets you nothing correction it gets you a sense of control but does not actually get you closer to your goals there's an epidemic of us doing things that make us feel productive but actually accomplish nothing whatsoever and tracking 32 categories is a perfect example of that and you can tell because when I asked what they got out of it there was a very long silence they're tracking excuse me her tracking is more like scratching a scab off a little tick that makes her feel better in the temporary moment but it's certainly not giving them the information as to how to save how to invest how to spend their money going forward it's not serving them but because she obviously takes a lot of pride in this it's now become a part of her identity so what changed two years ago well we went to couples counseling because of this uh it was heavily uh influenced by uh by by money and finances and stuff okay good I'm glad to hear that you did that has that been helping yeah yes oh yes I think we still don't have the tools in our tool kit to communicate effectively about money because I feel like I'm always pulling Jesse along I want Jesse to be interested in what we're doing with our money okay that's honest I appreciate that and Jesse what do you want in your own words to be less uncomfortable with money hmm uh can I ask a couple questions Jesse of course do you want to be engaged with money in the relationship deep down no I I find find Finance discussions uh intimidating uh uh threatening almost at times uh awkward I'm very avoidant to the conversations are you avoidant in other parts of life yeah I avoid confrontation quite a lot have you made that connection before yes oh yes all right so deep down you don't want to engage with money that's what you're saying yes that is like my base but you know through counseling through talking for Gears I know that that's not productive and I would like to change okay what's the consequences for both of you if nothing changes a lot of probably a lot of resentment maybe divorce yeah I'd say I'd say resentment and I felt that the bar the life we've kind of set up in the last year is I handle the finances and work uh like Jesse works too but like like my job was like bringing in the income and Jesse takes care of the households social engagements groceries the things we need for the home I think the other thing too is um we started to talk about like like planning our rich life like what are our goals because when we were younger it was just like get a home it was such a big goal for so long now it's like what are the goals we're gonna have for the rest of our life okay we want to do this by this year how do we work backwards from that and I find that I'm the one who always is figuring out how to work backwards from that I'd like to see a little bit more input because it would mean what I'm not the only one creating the life we want and if you're the only one what does that mean I just don't don't that doesn't feel like a relationship what is it it's like once it's like like we're roommates like we're not creating our life together she's very much just uh dragging me along for the ride um are you enjoying the ride I would be lying if I said I I wasn't enjoying the the comfort of that she is she has given us uh because she makes considerably more than me and is you know infinitely better at finances than I am but uh I don't want it to that to be the status quo are you uncomfortable in any other parts of life parts that of life that you're good at like last night I went out to eat Indian food okay and I got it really spicy so when I eat really spicy food I start to sweat a lot my eyelids are sweating the back of my head is itching I'm like wiping away like lots of Sweat Right I was physically uncomfortable but I also love it I'm good at it I know how to eat Indian food there are parts of life sometimes that we are uncomfortable at but we're good at it or we enjoy it do you have any parts of life like that yes so as a musician I am a very crippling stage fright okay uh and at least I would like to think I am very good at performing wow a great example I couldn't have named a better one myself so stage fright that's very uncomfortable but somehow you still get up there and you perform and you do well right I I'd like to think so yes how about you just say yes yes love it okay so is it possible that you might feel a little uncomfortable with money and you might also be a very good participant in your relationship yes I hope so okay how about let's try that again is it possible yes okay I agree I agree it's okay to be uncomfortable when you're first starting to learn about money and talk about money think about money differently and you can be a good participant to be fair it was a rather important decision that I had to partake in because I had to close my checking account in order to join hers when we uh when we combined our checking accounts we think of our money as like a communal pot it's not like Jesse pays a certain percentage based on his income versus me who made that decision by the way we've always done it that way since we were poorer I do believe it was your decision though when you joined accounts yeah back back in 2012 I believe guy pulls out here I had an old bod said the art of but what I do is faculation which is I facilitate but I'm really manipulating people wow that's so much any connection to what's going on here anyone okay yeah do you see my point yeah you take something and say here we go this is what I want to do and you even use words like this is what we want to do yes we set a budget yeah you know is it working for you um well I um I'd say uh the budget has worked pretty well we do pretty well with our lives the unintended consequence was uh Jesse's uh passive viewer versus a participant do you want him to be no what role are you playing in Jessie not speaking up forthrightly about what he wants well because I'm in control and probably because like we've been together for 18 years just our life is an example Jesse makes uh what 20 of what I make so like the life he has is from my labor you know California has had a drought for many years and this year suddenly there was a ton of rain and all of a sudden people realized that California is not capturing the rain water the water just flows right out to the ocean and everyone said what we need to capture this rain water well the system was designed decades ago to get rainwater out to the ocean as quickly as possible and guess what that is exactly what the infrastructure does efficiently and quickly like California Stacy is getting exactly what she designed for careful tracking over their spending which she does total control over their money for her decisions they ostensibly make together but she really makes she's getting everything she designed for except the one thing she claims she wants for the two of them to do it together alright here's the scene you're at work you put your phone face down you're focusing suddenly you turn it over because it's buzzing and what do you see a robocall how many of these calls do you get a day for a lot of people it's three four ten calls a day it's that kind of annoying little pest that constantly is buzzing you and you just don't know what to do about it well I want to introduce you to today's sponsor Nomo Robo that's no more Robo calls every single unwanted call is stopped dead in its tracks calls from people you know will still get through just like normal and for those unknown numbers that might be legit like clients or delivery people nomorobo's call screener will jump in and let you know exactly who's calling and what they want then you get to decide if you take the call it even protects against spam and scam text messages the people at Nomorobo take your privacy seriously there's no ads no tracking and keep your parents in mind too have you ever looked at their phones seen 350 notifications you ask them do you ever answer these calls they go yeah I talk to them all the time oh no Mom Dad no that's why I love that Nomorobo Max includes an option to add up to three 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thrilled that you and many other people can use rocket money to save hundreds of dollars per month so stop throwing your money away cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com that's rocketmoney.com r-a-m-i-t if we both have goals I want a partner who participates equitably in achieving those goals do you know if he has goals Jesse do you have goals I have uh I've uh goals with my business uh and that's that's about it in my life at the moment um I'm not sure what else to say what do you think hearing that Stacy it's a symptom of like Jesse doesn't really like think ahead and just kind of like life happens day by day we'll figure it out um why does that concern you because then you're never thinking of like how life can be better I try and like get Jesse to dream bigger because I try to get him to Dream Burger how do you do that by providing I have worked really hard to provide a life so that he doesn't have to worry about money as much so that like he can do something more adventurous so he just started a business last year and I like encouraged him to do that because he was working retail and I'm like you can't work retail forever when you say to him you can't work retail forever what message are you communicating to him I'm probably communicating that like the path he's chosen is not ideal or like it won't lead to success it like won't make you happy forever um it'll wear you down it was wearing on his body do you think that he knew that deep down that retail was probably not good for him physically probably deep down but he wasn't making a change was he no and so you decided to what well let's ask Jesse Jesse take us back to the time where you were working retail how much were you making back then uh uh 65k at the very end okay and did you enjoy the job I enjoyed the job up until covert happened and then um we basically became a warehouse even though I was retail management they basically treated me like a Workhorse and I broke my body are you still recovering from that now yeah two years later still I'm on the better end of it but yes I'm sorry to hear that so you were kind of put into this uh labor role and that was tough on you how long did you do that for uh six years in that one position I I uh sorry for that one company I've been retail for two decades no okay oh you've been retail for two decades up thereabouts yeah okay did you enjoy it for two decades yeah I thought it was pretty good at Selling Stuff great and what would you say to her about your day at work of course um so as Stacy's already familiar but I'll I'll say it again my manager at the time didn't come in today called out uh and I had to do her job my job and another uh probably 10 other jobs and I'm not getting paid for this and I've complied to her boss about this for the hump teen time uh and nothing is changing Stacy go ahead and respond the way you used to respond have you tried oh that's all I need that's all I need thank you very much what do you notice is happening in that dynamic one person is venting one person is trying to problem solve imagine that someone shoves you one time ten times imagine they shove you for 18 years at a certain point it becomes hard enough to even remember how to walk on your own you think that might be happening here yeah I think you hit the nail on the head you two are talking past each other Stacy's looking off into the orbit right now she's realized I did this today I did it today I'm pushing him off the cliff again it's highlighted that I have like years of habit to to break you see the issue you have no fingerprints on your finances at all you're merely a passive Observer in your financial life and she doesn't like it and if she gets hit by a bus tomorrow you're [ __ ] actually he's not that that is something we've had what do you mean he can get a big old life insurance check that doesn't mean he's gonna know how to use it that's true Stacy controls everything financially related in their relationship and therefore disempowers Jesse when Jesse has a problem she tries to solve it thus further disempowering him this is a classic example only it's usually with the genders reversed and Stacy really has a massive blind spot around how she's helping Jesse even in the last comment where I pointed out that Jesse would be screwed if she got hit by a bus her response was actually not she really believes that handing over a check from her life insurance would help Jesse who's functionally unable to deal with money in his 30s her disempowerment has lots of costs that are totally invisible to her but I think she's starting to realize them and Jesse plays a part in this he's sitting back relaxing Stacy's running around tracking 32 categories why would he change life is good the dynamic is really what stands out to me so in order to understand it more let's take a look at the numbers they're combined gross monthly income is nineteen thousand eight hundred and sixty seven dollars their gross annual income is two hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars assets 1.32 million Investments 319 000 savings fifty thousand their debt a mortgage is 435 000 therefore bringing their net worth to 1.25 million dollars how do you feel about 1.2 million dollars in your 30s I think I've done very well for myself okay and I hope to grow it uh further in the next 30 Years good all right that's a good answer I love that answer it's very confident did it feel real to you to say no a lot of it is in our house so not a whole lot of his liquid so what does that mean when I say the number aloud I I my first thought is wow we we're doing pretty well for our for our age uh where we're living but then my second thought is is not a lot of it is accessible or usable even in retirement you like to worry less so than Stacy but yes still what do you get out of it out of worrying yeah um I uh I worry a lot that what you had just mentioned and Stacy and I've had that very same conversation many times before that if she suddenly is out of the picture for whatever reason I am in a lot of trouble because if she were hit by a bus by the way I love this morbid conversation where we're talking about one person's premature death who just happens to be sitting right in front of us we're okay we're both European we talk about death a lot fantastic all right great so if she were to get you know hit by a bus you still have 1.2 million dollars and your young able-bodied guy so it's not the number that concerns me it's that everything beneath it which is you would have no idea how to manage it on a day-to-day basis no idea how life insurance Works no idea what investments are or how they interact with your savings none of it would you agree I would agree and more to that effect I also don't even have a lot of working income uh because I just started a business in a market that is not known for making any money and how long are you going to go on that business before deciding if it's worth it or not uh ideally until retirement uh the the goal is to grow it through expansion okay great how much do you need to make from this business in order for me to like maintain what where we are now I don't know just how much do you do you have a goal for how much you're going to make with this business uh my goal is to double that within the year four thousand a month okay that's good and and would you be happy would you be satisfied at that number uh I would yes but again that that is I would be happy with that number if I still have a loving and and a healthy wife all right Stacy do you see what the dynamic that you have co-created has done here she's nodding say it out loud um I think uh what I heard was one I don't like if Jesse does not have the means to manage financially if I'm not around and then to what I heard is with regards to his business just like small goals a small sense of what could be yeah like four thousand a month while impressive or a business to start I mean Jesse used to make 65 000 in retail like shouldn't a business make more than you can make working retail Jesse yes I'm not blaming you you haven't been given the authority you haven't been given access you haven't even been encouraged to take control of some of these aspects of Finance but it's now caused some really serious effects that are not even obvious right now let's also remember you're not in dire Financial Straits you have tons of money 238 000 a year is that a lot or a little what do you think I'm proud of what I have achieved personally in terms of like my own Career Success um but I never feel good about money yeah as I always think they're like we need more buffer right oh uh if you make an extra 50k maybe you'll feel good then I won't no no I absolutely won't I taught you that that's so crazy though but what if you make 100K would you feel better then no no because it will I'll never feel like it's uh enough I'll continue to worry like I if I was richer I'd be like the folks you have on the podcast who have like 5 million in their 30s and I would still be crazy I could literally calculate the exact month that you're gonna have that much and you're right you will come back on the show and feel exactly that way it's a guarantee unless we make some changes yes what do you think those changes and Broad Strokes have to be Stacy I need to share responsibilities and actually share them and hand them off nice not continue to partially own them I think the other thing why why I think I don't know if Jesse was feeling this way but why I was quiet just now is like I always thought encouraging Jesse to start his own business was such a good like I thought I did a good thing um and I'm feeling like I didn't do a good thing because I I probably I like coach coached him in the direction to go instead of like really just letting him make his own decisions and then now he doesn't dream big enough how would you describe the way you feel right now uh like mad at myself mad why mad cause I don't think I realized what I created [Music] what did you create an environment where you know Jesse doesn't see the big vision of what he's capable of doing whether that's finances and I'm sorry Jesse love you so much but like it's so clear that you're so anxious on this conversation the deeper we get in because like you're using like buzzwords to try and like talk effectively instead of just being like your yourself and I feel like I I created that foreign how do you receive that Jesse a little confused a little frustrated the way I've created structured my business it likely will never grow Beyond a certain point with adult I I don't know exactly what the dollar amount is but probably not much more than four to six k a month I know that that causes Stacy a lot of uh anxiety and pain do you want to talk to her about it um I feel conflicted Stacy because you pushed me I I feel rightly so into pursuing this this business and I am happy that you did and I am happy with the company that I've created for myself but I it also pains me to know that I will be unable to financially contribute as much as you ideally would like as much as I ideally would like like in in a perfect world um so it's it's a it's difficult do you have a question for her um go ahead ask the question that you're afraid to ask when I lost my job and you said Jesse start your business do something that you love you have a number of hobbies make money doing one of them and I pursued it and I I felt I was up front about how it would not be a great money maker but I need to know if you you understand that the thing I'm gonna push back on you is I think you're self-inducing that limitation before you start you're saying it's never going to be bigger you create your own destiny and I didn't ask for a specific number and you don't have to make a certain amount but what really pains me in this conversation is I I'm worried I created an environment where you you're not even um it's not about trying it's that like you're I don't know if like you really believe that having one location of your rehearsal studios or two locations is enough or you could even dream bigger I feel like you're hemming yourself in before you can even explore the possibilities it's not really about what I expect because we can live off my income that's why I pushed you to do that if four thousand dollars is as much you're going to make in the next year and then it that might be the next 10 years um uh I'm fine with that honestly if I were in Jessie's shoes I would be really confused right now first Stacy told me that yeah it's okay I don't earn a lot of money then she told me I should start a business which I did then she wants me to earn more money but a few seconds later she says it's okay if I don't earn more money Stacy's message is that she wants control but she also wants Jesse to participate but when he tries she says not like that this is all very confusing it's quite the weight off my chest to hear that out loud it feels like it's uh you know it's always something moving over uh my head where I worry because you know Stacy is the kind of person that is always concerned about money and not having enough of it and to your point you know it's like well you we make x amount you've structured it so that we are stable but it seems like the narrative is always we need to make more we need to make more as a household so it's good to hear you say out loud that uh it's okay if I fail essentially with uh with income was that your intention Stacy is that what you meant to communicate no I I meant to say well I mean yes it's okay to fail but what I meant to say is don't make decisions based on what I say I want to hear your own thought I think in this conversation I've heard you pair it back some of the things I've said or ramit says but I'm missing is like your perspective like what do you want because when I hear you say like I'm doing this business I'm making a small amount of money but I'm taking care of the home I fed you that narrative I don't know if that's what you really want and I don't know if you're being honest that that's what you want is that honestly what you want that is honestly what I want uh I enjoy cooking uh I I I enjoy uh being at home uh because Stacy works from home so I get to see her a lot more than I used to when we were both working out in the world what else it's I guess it'd be like the fruits of your labor again I'm sorry for using buzzwords but it uh it's it's something that uh I can see that had that I'm there's there's an a to a b now that's an honest answer I like that that's a perfectly respectable answer it's you're right I don't get that in my business either there's always projects that are ongoing blah blah blah it's rare that it's just done and clean and perfect Stacy do you think that you're having unrealistic expectations for Jesse to suddenly become a long-term career planner yes how long have you been trying to get him to think like you forever probably since we met I'm sure you think he picks up on that yes because there's this narrative that he believes you need to have more money is that true yeah yeah Jesse thinks I'm like money obsessed and like it's as if I'm we've had this discussion before he's like you're obsessed with money to the point of like it's like greed but what we've talked about in the past and I guess I guess Jesse is like still not clear maybe he's like what I why I obsess about money is for safety I'm obsessed about it from a sense of like security and I want to just make sure there's enough not just to survive but to be able to like retire comfortably and is obsessing gonna help you achieve that it has so far you should keep doing it um no why not no it's gotten you here got a million bucks in the bank why not just keep doing it obsess and make three million because clearly it's caused the sacrifice I'm or like what I'm losing is in our relationship like I've created this dependent relationship that's not it's not sustainable you are in your own words obsessed with money because it provides you safety and you what you want to change that Obsession or you want to keep going I'm not asking a loaded question I'm legitimately curious I do not want that continually optimizing won't change any thing you optimize a lot yes like like I'm always looking at like how much am I putting away in our investments and I like want to increase how much we're putting away to retirement so that in I think it's like 10 years will have enough that we'll need for retirement and then I don't have to worry about putting so much away and I said stop worrying yeah come on why you why are you doing this to yourself you listen to every episode of the podcast you've read my book right yes do you think I use the word obsessed with money management no it's boring it should be like what would you cook anything simple like eggs or something at home yeah are you obsessed with eggs no you throw the egg on the thing put a little butter it's done right it's a utility at a certain level of money mastery you don't even have to be a high earner but at a certain level of knowledge and Mastery over your psychology yeah money management itself is really boring and it should be the problem is that there's actually a real cost to doing that with your money yeah what might you get out of changing your approach to money I feel like I have everything to gain then why haven't you done it already because I've worn you know like the finances have been like my cross to bear willingly um as if it's a negative thing yeah or like like it's like it's it's my responsibility tracking a budget for what tweaking a spreadsheet for what and also having all these negative conversations where you're always lecturing him yeah you really should make more money blah blah blah and then you don't even care if he makes more money it's like what's the point yeah is there a way for you to have fun with money uh we are going on a trip to Italy in about three two months what the [ __ ] hold on that's awesome okay Round of Applause all right I'm getting the sense that I might have been wrong but let's play it out that is awesome how long are you going for uh three just five three weeks yes damn all right cool who came up with the idea this was a big plant it's been planned for like two years wow okay and you both are excited have you ever been to Italy before no no so cool all right what are you two in particular excited about uh generally just travel as uh Stacy mentioned earlier conversation Chief when she was growing up she went on a vacation I did not go on my first vacation until I was 22. where'd you go uh Azores it's where I'm my family's from Portugal so it's uh Portugal so you're going on this trip and has this gotten kind of the juices flowing in terms of like oh where else might we go exactly that well okay so Italy is the big one for this year next year is renovating our backyard and redoing our fencing at the house so started thinking about that wow that's so cool and then the year after that is Japan yeah is there some reason that you take one trip per year we don't even do that yeah is there a reason for that I mean it's not like you're making like twenty thousand dollars you make 240 000 a year uh because when I look at our numbers I think we're behind on saving for retirement so I I want to focus more money towards retirement than yeah travel yeah good the the one thing that neither of you are really excited about you want to focus on that the thing that and the thing that lights you two up let's let's wait another 10 years to do that you all realize how ridiculous that sounds look at the rest of this CSP we didn't even finish it your fixed costs are 39 of your take home that's one of the lowest numbers I've seen on this show 39 percent that's good do you realize that yes maybe too good it's actually it can be so good that it's bad I'm not saying that's the case but I'm just saying wow you got a lot of extra money to play around with every month your Investments 21 of take-home that is extremely good at 21 it tells me either you're like way too Frugal or you have a pretty high income in your case I think you have a very good income that's fantastic above 25 I would start to get a little wary I would say why aren't they spending some money on life I want to double that number I'm not surprised all right uh and you you can and if you double it you will certainly achieve your goals faster and you will be miserable and you will cost immeasurable unmeasurable uh cost to your relationship number one you're both depriving yourselves of enjoying these experiences taking one trip every three year makes no sense and second actually not giving ownership this is an amazing opportunity to give ownership to Jesse say Jesse I notice you love traveling I love traveling I would love it if you would be the person in charge of Travelers helping us schedule our travel can we have a conversation about that he's nodding he's going yeah he's getting excited I see that smile okay it's a lot of layers here yeah very interesting what do you think so when we started this conversation you said what did you want to get out today I'm like I'm hoping you see something we can't see and you did you've seen that we've I've optimized the system I'm getting exactly what I put in and reaping it and I've created that for a really long time what I'm recognizing is if I look at this as a scale maybe I have this 100 optimized what I'd actually like is maybe 80 and there's certain areas where I would value Jesse's involvement but it doesn't have to be in the details and we can um balance it out more effectively okay that's pretty that's pretty perceptive I agree Jesse what do you think so far very much the same thing I felt Stacy had a narrative she wanted coming in which was uh I think she wanted to have a conversation on how to better optimize our savings for our retirement and how to enjoy uh the the latter half of our life not not just like 65 plus but like 40 plus really is that true Stacy well I knew like they were definitely Hang-Ups we had about money in our like our Dynamic that needed a lens and then the other thing that this this is the problem that I'm mostly worried about when we talk about finances I'm worried that we will have it not have enough for retirement and that we're like enjoying life enough yeah okay you're worried about retirement and you're not worried about the fact that one partner is totally disempowered and disengaged for money you already know the answer to your question about retirement I'll answer it anyway but it's not a retirement issue that's not going to be your challenge in your relationship your challenge is staring you right in front of the face what is it that it's uh one-sided yep and Jesse what else codependent that's a good way to put it but when you say codependent you mean what Stacy has uh created a system where I don't have to be involved yes but I very much should be or and she very much would like me to be yes yes that's accurate so what would happen if you just flip the switch tomorrow and both of you reverse rules Stacy you're keeping the house clean look at she's already laughing and you better keep that kitchen you know spotless according to Jesse's standards and Jesse you're managing all finances you're planning retiring making all decisions what would happen um I mean I would I would like to think sorry you want these people confidently I apologize uh I would likely look at the budget as written and try to stick to it as closely as possible I think I can handle that I think he would learn and figure it out before I get to the follow-ups from Stacy and Jesse which are fascinating I'd like to ask you to do two things which really help the first go to Apple podcast and leave a written review that really helps us and second get on the podcast newsletter where I share new material every single Saturday go to iwt.com podcast newsletter and you will find a lot of material that I never share publicly all right let's get to the follow-ups the first from Stacy I got out of the conversation what I had hoped to see something I myself was blind to I walked away understanding that I had created a system for an inequitable partnership in our finances and I've got work to do with Jesse to unpack and rebuild that relationship I watched the first two episodes of the new show and I do not want to have the relationship Matt and amany displayed I was reinforcing an unbalanced power Dynamic that I did not actually want my biggest takeaway was that I have been swooping in to save the day when it comes to money it's created an environment of intimidation instead of curiosity the day after your call I started to change that we started to take steps to give Jesse skin in the game when it comes to our finances we readjusted our CSP yesterday evening instead of looking at our total income we looked at Jesse's income and broke out the household spending under his responsibility and allocated investment savings proportional to his income he's going to pay for and own the budget for anything household related you will also set up a recurring deposit for his investment account based on twenty percent of his income we also re-booked our regular Financial check-ins we rescheduled it to a date we could commit to Jesse will be taking ownership of the agenda and on and on they go on to share more and more details we looked at what we want to achieve in the next year and whether our savings targets would get us there this left us with a much healthier 21 guilt-free spending allocation in our CSP thank you for the coaching and guidance step by step I know Jesse and I will create a more Equitable Financial partnership Jesse wrote a follow-up and said my feeling before going into the conversation was a fear that I was going to be blamed for not being involved with our finances and accused of being disinterested I was surprised by your observations of our relationship Dynamics over the past 18 years and how they Foster these feelings of anxiety avoidance and disinterest I was even more surprised by your insistence that we needed to start spending more money on ourselves in the everything else category of the CSP the following night we sat down and discussed our budget and I'm now handling our day-to-day spending including groceries pets house supplies Etc we have a long road ahead of us but we will not be skipping our monthly meetings any longer fantastic work to Jesse and Stacy thank you for the courage in coming on this show we all appreciate it and for everyone who's listening and watching go to iwt.com podcast newsletter because I've got new material to share with you this Saturday and every Saturday afterwards [Music]

Channel: I Will Teach You To Be Rich

Views: 77,214

Keywords: Ramit Sethi, I Will Teach You To Be Rich, money coaching, finance coaching, how to spend, how to save, how to invest, investing, investing podcast, finance podcast, Ramit Sethi podcast, money author, money psychology, money podcast, Conscious Spending Plan, IWT, How To Get Rich, 104, Stacey and Jesse, codependency, control, confidence, spreadsheet, budgeting, conscious spending plan, ramit sethi podcast, i will teach you to be rich

Id: p-FusbjQS98

Length: 72min 9sec (4329 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 06 2023