a trend escalation over and over of rhetoric in Trump fundraising emails. And if they started at Defcon three, they might very well be on Defcon five right about now on May 7th. Trump painting the stakes in life or death terms, saying they want me silenced forever. I look at this for May 22nd. Biden DOJ was authorized to shoot me. Also, this not so subtle hint, hint that Trump wants you to believe that Democrats want him dead, saying, quote, they're just itching to do the unthinkable. Now, the day Donald Trump was convicted, his ghost writers implored would be donors to pray for America, calling himself a political prisoner. And then finally today, borrowing from Robespierre Hall out the guillotine. Joining me now to discuss is George Conway, a contributor for The Atlantic, and Jonah Goldberg, the editor in chief for The Dispatch. And shout out to my seventh grade teacher. I remember how to pronounce Robespierre. There you go. And we begin with you for a second. And you're not with us on set here. I want to know what you make of this hyperbolic language in these emails. It's amazing that it's continuing to get worse. I mean, we've seen inflammatory rhetoric from the Trump campaign and his fundraising emails on and other contacts in the past. But this idea of a guillotine, I mean, it does not seem to be any depth to which the Trump campaign will not sink in order to raise money. And what this is, is just it is an attempt to inflame the public in order to bait, to raise money for, to defend the campaign of a of a convicted felon fact that Republican fundraisers think that this is actually effective. And I must be, because they wouldn't be doing it if if they weren't, they wouldn't be. Do. Using this kind of language for word effective and raising money is is really just something I just something astonishing to behold. I mean, Jonah, it's not only making money, I mean after the conviction alone and I mean, even aside from the Eugene Carroll case that he was referencing from just last year, 50 plus million dollars since the convictions alone. But then there is this reporting that some of the money that was being used say that there was actually being gained, that Trump shifted nearly $5 million from his campaign to private businesses. He hasn't really donated a lot of money in his own campaign. What does this tell you in terms of what his mindset is? Well, I actually think the two stories are kind of related. The, the I mean, George and I go way back. I'm not shocked by this. It's the logic of an addict and they're feeding an addiction, which is eventually you get used to the dosage, you have to up the dose. And that's true of all sorts of addictions. The outrage machine that Trump raises money off of and uses an ATM constantly needs the rhetoric to go to 11 11.1 11. Just keep going higher because otherwise people become inured to it. And so you have to say, they tried to kill me. You have to say bring out the guillotine, all kind of stuff. And it's not just that you keep your people running on hot, it's that you have to do this stuff to say something new and fresh to get attacked fresh. Because if you just said the old rhetoric, people want to attack him and he makes money, he monetizes the attacks on him as well. This is bait. Then you think it's a tactic and it's it's worked for them. I mean, and I find it a I'm as appalled by this, Georges. But it works on the the money. They look at almost ten years ago now. I said the problem with with with, with, with Donald Trump is that character is destiny. Donald Trump has always been a self dealer. He has always tried to sort of get, you know, earn a buck from every conceivable angle, squeeze every penny out of things. He did this as president, making money, monetizing the presidency. Why wouldn't he try to monetize his own campaign? Well, George, I want to bring you into that point, because not only the amount of money we're talking about, but part of the ratcheting up of the rhetoric and, of course, the commensurate increase in campaign funding that's coming from it. You know, he's still able to have people like, well, Speaker Johnson suggests that this is a man in spite of all this, believes in the transfer of power. Listen to this. Really, for the first time, Republicans are both the House and Senate, meaning we've had since the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Are you committed or have you spoken to him about basically not not doing anything like that again and committing to, respect the sort of American tradition of a peaceful transfer? Of course, he respects that, and we all do. And we've all talked about it at nauseum. Well, we've talked about something ad nauseum, but not his respect for the transfer of power. George. Yeah. I mean, I think Jonah's addiction metaphor, actually, it's really is there really probably is a top of me, an aspect to it is really apt even to this, because the Republican Party has become addicted to lies under Trump. And this is just an example, the pretense that Donald Trump cares about the Constitution, the pretense that he didn't try to overthrow the Constitution, the pretense that, as Donald Trump has been saying, the people who went up to Capitol Hill on January 6th were, are and then were prosecuted are hostages. I mean, in light of that, it's just impossible to say that Donald Trump, with any honesty, to say that Donald Trump supports the Constitution and doesn't and it's impossible to say that. And and Speaker Johnson manages to do that, and he does that because the Republicans just lie casually now. And that's just become a way of life for the Republican Party. Jonah, what do you say to that? Because there are many who would look at this and say, well, hold on, which kind of Republican are you talking about? There is obviously some different identity within some who sign up to to emulate Donald Trump and others who say, no, I'm still a part of the Republican Party. I see a vehicle that Donald Trump represents. What's your say? Yeah, I think, it used to be that there was too few, but some vocal people, I mean, Mitt Romney, I still think tells the truth about Donald Trump and all that kind of stuff. And you can find a few others. but the real distinction was between the people who would say things like Speaker Johnson said on camera, but and those who wouldn't say them off camera, like the a number of Republicans, the what I used to call closet normies that, they would say, you know, the TV cameras turn on and they'd say stuff like, under Comrade Trump, we will have the greatest wheat harvest we've ever seen in the URLs. And then the cameras go off and go, oh, this guy is such a pain in the ass, I can't stand him. The problem is, is that our brain, we are not wired to be permanently cynical and to lie all the time. And over time, we start to believe our own BS. And so now, more and more and more people in the Republican Party, honestly, you know, five years ago, they would all say, yeah, I just got to say this because it's politics. And now the cameras go off and they still say it. And I think speaker Johnson's more in that camp. But even if he's not, he has to say this stuff because he loses speakership like that. If he turned on Trump, Trump is the guy who gave him a speakership. Imagine the psychology of becoming the true believer to your to your point, and maybe these different emails that are coming out, I wonder to what extent it is galvanizing people towards that or not. Jonah Goldberg, George Conway, both of you, thanks so much.
