One second, is there a power cut? Yes. Oh, its a power cut. Is it because of us? No, no, no. Oh! It's back. It would have been a better effect if it had remained cut. Why? We are sitting here without electricity and fighting with democracy. And look at those people in their big palaces. When did you first realize that you are a victim of Love Jihad? That's what, ask Rahul Shiv Shankar. Oh, RSS. Will you tell me one thing? What is this Ghazwa-e-Hind? The priorities are clear. This is our living room where Umar's photo is there. Messi's photo is in my bedroom. What is his most irritating habit? You know, Umar Khalid has gone to Pakistan. There is one cultured Muslim. Umar is not that. If I say anything now, He will say, "I am in Jail right now." There hasn't been a trial since last 6 years. He is in jail now. He has become a hero. Still he is a skinflint. Man, he is an irritating man. The thing is that I love football. He doesn't understand football. There should be a case on this. You will get roasted. It's impossible to happen now. You guys talked rubbish for an hour? In a parallel universe, where are Umar and Banojyotsna? See, I am anxious, I am nervous, I am tired, I am exhausted. One thing I am not, I am not scared. I don't get scared. That's it. In the midst of the biggest election in history, let's think about those.. who have been left to the mercy of society, conversation and justice, those who don't remember democracy and democratic values only when politics is in trend, those who believe in the constitution and fight to keep its spirit alive. To challenge the boundaries of the political landscape of Indian YouTube, this video is dedicated to them If you want us to do more such work, make more such videos, then please do one thing, share this video. Let us make you meet Dr. Banojyotsna Lahiri. PhD scholar, and Dr. Umar Khalid's partner who is an activist, and imprisoned in Tihar jail for almost 4 years without trial. Unfiltered Pranam. So he was worried about the speech, & even though he has given so many speeches. There is an irritating tension he will have before every speech. I ask, what is the tension, you have already said it so many times. What will you say? And before these speeches, mostly me or sometimes our friends have to listen to that speech. So he used to practice on you? Yes. Like during the CAA, It was so repetitive and boring till we reach the last few days of the protest. I used to say that your speeches are not even good now. Take a break, take some rest. I mean, go and sleep for a few days. You are saying the same thing everywhere. What happened later? Later when all this case was going to be filed, it could be filed at any time, So the lawyer said, keep a transcript of all the speeches. At first, he said, yes, "I will do this work". Then he got bored himself after a couple of days. He said to me, what a boring speech it was! A case is being filed for this boring speech. The UAPA is filed on such boring speech? Although that was actually one of the better speeches. Amravati's speech was one of the better speeches. A video of a furious speech by a JNU student, Umar Khalid, has gone viral. Umar Khalid who was making speeches calling for riots. (Umar Khalid's speech) Khalid called for riots through his speech. Violence is being incited again and again. Umar Khalid means the poster boy of riots. He is officially the riots leader. When you guys would watch this on TV, like him being called such names And you are watching a completely false show., was there not a lot of anger and... yeah of course, I mean I have stopped watching TV but I do feel the helpless anger, what will you do? after that we did the case, we gave it to the court and also to the national broadcasting authority and it has been removed but when it was supposed to be done, it was done it is done & damage you will never be able to retrieve that damage But at least now we take those steps. Shameless. These people are absolutely shameless people. On the other hand, media reports are saying that Umar Khalid is missing his girlfriend a lot. Does he write to you often? He writes lengthy letters to other people. He meets me almost every week. And when did you last meet? Yesterday. Oh, you met yesterday? Yeah. How is he? He is fine. I told him that I have an interview tomorrow. So what did he say? I said, you'll get roasted. What did he say? He said, what do I do? There is nothing in my hands. I said, "nothing". I said to one of my close friends that I am interviewing you, so tell me a funny question. So they said, ask her, Umar or Messi? Who would you prefer? Difficult question. If you have to choose. I mean, look Ultimately You will bring God on one side and a mortal human being on one side. Who is God among these two? Leo of course. I am joking. I won't refer to this skinflint as a God. He is a hero in jail. He is still skinflint. If you had asked me before arrest, I would have said Leo, out of question. Obviously. I have sympathy for him. But sympathy has a limit too. Does he see the humor in this situation? Or do you have humor in your life? Humor is everything. How are we surviving? with humor. When I go for our weekly mulaqat, we talk for an hour and we are never sad. We always laugh. We joke around. He also says what's the gossip, tell me what's going on outside. This is the first question. We gossip a lot. We have a few more friend who goes to meet him. Some people just go to gossip. One of my friends, she went, she came back. I said so sometimes, Umar also tells, you know, instructions for lawyers & all. So, it's a matter of work. I asked tell me did he say something? So, she started saying, yes, yes, we gossiped about this. I said, one second, I said, wait a second, tell me about the matter of work first? What's the matter? Matter of work? We didn't talk about anything work-related? I said, you guys have been talking nonsense for an hour He said, yes, we were just talking Are you guys across the bars? Yes, I mean there is a glass.. You guys are not allowed to meet in a room? No, it's not like that? Do you have a phone? Yes All this happens? So a whole movie is going on. So you pick up the phone and he picks up the phone from there? First, we go for 5 minutes to find out a functional phone. Many phones don't work. So we find one cubicle, another cubicle and then... So are you the only two in that room or are there other people too? There's a crowd. No, no. There are other people too. In the sense that there are cubicles. Okay. So you have to find one cubicle. Inside the cubicle, it's just the two of us. But not in every cubicle the phone is working. Yeah. Okay. So you have to find a cubicle where both the phones are working. And the glass is clean. Do you guys have a favourite cubicle now in Tihar? Yes. Okay. Which is number what? Numbering is not like that. But there are two cubicles in the corner which are our favourite. Okay. Because the glass also has to be clean. All the glasses are not clean. So if the glass is unclean, it seems like a hazy 70s film. And what happens in an hour? Does an officer come and say that time is up? Does he take you away? No. What happens? So jail number 2 where he is there it's not one of the crowded jails. One good thing about him is he is very well behaved with everyone irrespective of your background or whatever he is well behaved with everyone. So that makes him a very much you know, liked character in jail even among the officials. Sometimes people come and ask me how are you sister-in-law? The thing is that I can see everyone is so sweet with him. So he comes and says it's time to go. 2 minutes, 2 minutes more, 2 minutes. Then again he comes after 10 minutes. 2 minutes, sister, 2 minutes. 2 minutes, last 2 minutes. 4-5 times, 2 minutes, 2 minutes. Okay, he does it. Yes, he does it. This is just we are talking, right? The interview has already started. It's going to be this way only.
-Okay It's going to be this way only. Okay. What is his most irritating habit? The one you find. He talks a lot. I mean, sometimes I feel like, shut up. What is there to talk about? Is he also a Leo Messi fan or is he a Ronaldo fan? He is a Virat Kohli fan. He is a cricket fan. And I don't like cricket at all. He is a cricket fan? He used to play cricket in school and college. He claims that he has out Virat Kohli once. There is no witness. what a big liar he is. I think there should be a case on this. No one has seen it. There is no witness. I mean, anyone could have witnessed that you took Virat Kohli's wicket. You just throw anything. Did he say this to impress you? No, no, he used to say this to everyone. When he used to play club cricket, he out Virat Kohli in a club. There is no witness. But the thing is that, see, I love football. He doesn't understand football. I won't go to his face and show him that this is football. He does that to me with cricket. See this match that happened in India. I said, I don't want to see it. I don't like it. No, you just see one catch. I said, I don't want to see this catch. Once or twice he woke me up and said that he actually woke me up. What happened? I want to show you something. What do you want to show? Once in 1997... Are you serious? Yes, there was a match. Suddenly I saw it. I felt very nostalgic. I said, for this, you woke me up. Overall, he is an irritating man. Very irritating man. Very much. And now, if I say anything, he says I am in jail. Obviously, things will work according to him. At some point, you will come out. Do you guys consciously try to not fight? Yes, I mean we get just an hour, so fighting will spoil the mood. This is also going on. I once said that I am bored of not fighting with you for 4 years. I wanted to fight with you. That's why I asked you to come out. He said, will you fight after I come out? I said, obviously, normally fights happen. I have stopped you now because you are in jail. He said, no, no, no, it won't happen after coming out. Suddenly he realized that his privilege will go away. The privilege that I tolerate now, it will go away. He said, no, look, even after coming out for a while, when I come out, you will have to do this for a while, thinking that this guy was in jail. So what is the deadline? I will decide what the deadline is. Otherwise, you will be doing this all your life. Because I was in jail at that time, now you have to tolerate me. It's not like that. What is the deadline in your head, in his head? For when? For me, the fight will start after 7 days. No, no, no. Deadline to when he will come out. That is not in our hands. That is why we decide our deadlines. Such a deadline, when we will start fighting. That is in our hands. But when he will come out, that is not in our hands. That is, I mean, whenever the conscience of the judiciary wakes up. If you have to describe this entire legal process in one word, what would it be? See, this is comedy, in the sense, it is comical. Lot of it is comical. But it's also serious, mean, it's a tragicomic situation that way. It's tragic, it's very tragic, but it's also very comical. And why do you say it's tragic and comical at the same time? because ultimately it's human lives that are getting affected. People are behind bars for four years almost. And a trial has not even started. Right? So it's tragic. But it's also comic. For those who don't understand the word trial, can you explain in one sentence what it means to not start a trial? It means, I have accused you, I have written on your forehead that you are a terrorist. You are under UAPA. You are the mastermind of Delhi riots. Even if you are not present in Delhi, you are the mastermind. But the onus is on you to show me that I am actually the mastermind of the Delhi riots. I was actually even remotely involved in that. You have to show how. And prove it in the court of law. Bring evidences. And that proceeding is not even starting. It's been 3.5 years. And in any other situation if the trial is taking so long the person would have gotten bail. This is what happens, it is okay that a trial is being conducted against you, because now we are conducting this trial so you will get bail. But because this is a UAPA case, bail becomes very very almost impossible. Comedy is going on. But how is he doing generally? How is his health and everything? Yes health wise he is very good. For the first time in my life, he is eating on time, sleeping on time, not smoking, exercising, playing cricket. Life is going on well. It must be mentally taxing. Humor is a good thing. It must be exhausting. Definitely, it is taxing. It shouldn't happen to anyone. What is happening with you? If you can explain it to someone who does not know about what you are going through In 2016, I had completed my PhD, they (Umar & his friends) were still in JNU Normal students do politics, activism and all that It was a small poetry reading session basically Against capital punishment It was against capital punishment on the human rights violation in Kashmir Just another day in JNU. All right. Suddenly I saw that Zee News' camera was moving around. People didn't understand that such programs are there thrice a day in JNU. I never saw Zee News' camera. Why is Zee News' camera moving around? someone said, there is news about this program in the media. That's when people started laughing. You are laughing? Yes, obviously. What is this? There is news in the media. Zee News was the same channel that used to do news in between 'Jalpari Dekhne Ko Mil Gaya' and all that. It was in that vein. 'Jalpari Dikhne Ko Mil Gaya', anti national program in JNU. People didn't understand what the media is doing in our university. Media is coming and putting a mic on everyone's face that here are anti-national slogans. The next day, all the news channels started talking about the anti-national program in JNU. People are not understanding what is happening. You were not prepared at all. Who can be prepared for this Samdish? Suddenly, the entire world will start talking about your insignificant program that happened in JNU. DSU activists led by Umar Khalid raised anti-national slogans after they were denied permission to screen a pro-Afzal film. This report of the Delhi police specifically it names and identifies Umar Khalid as the person who raised those anti-national slogans. Now Umar remember this, you, you, you are more dangerous to this country than Maoist terrorists and we are ashamed of these anti-national elements. We are, we are and you will not, you will not speak over me. Please don't interrupt and I'm cutting you off now for a minute. Can I please do that? I have run out of patience with you. But don't you dare to speak over me. The Home Minister at that point of time, Rajnath Singh came and gave a statement that a strict investigation will be carried out. And then we got to know that an FIR has been launched and the FIR is an FIR of sedition. So even then people were feeling that this is not true, this is a comedy. What is the meaning of sedition? Sedition is when you give a speech and violence happens because of your speech. Where is the violence here? 9th February was the program. 10th, 11th, this is going on. 12th February, Kanhaiya Kumar got arrested, JNUSU President. He was not even there in that program, he was sleeping. Now, he is a very popular leader, that's why he got elected. He was a very lazy man, he was sleeping in that program. When he woke up, the program was ending. And three days later he was arrested and went to jail. Kanhaiya was also arrested, Anirban was also arrested, the target was Umar Khalid. Because of the name? Of course, because of the name. That RSS, earlier he used to be in Times Now. Alright RSS. Yes RSS. Rahul Shiv Shankar. Rahul Shiv Shankar. So, he used to sit in News X at that point of time. So he sat and declared one day that, you know, Umar Khalid has gone to Pakistan. He has made several calls to UAE, Pakistan, Bangladesh to do that program. Okay, to do that program, he has made calls, several calls, and he has gone to Pakistan. So much so, and he's a Jaish-e-Mohammed sympathizer. In one night, all these things, he sat on his prime time and declared. Made Umar a full terrorist? Made him the same day. We were a normal human beings, normal citizens of the country I was just a pass out they were still students. Suddenly you see this kind of your witch hunt of yours live on TV. Right? You can see your witch hunt happening on live TV. Have any Bollywood directors come up to you and said we want to make a film on this?
-Yes, definitely! After that, the atmosphere... This is a real film, a farce So, for the next one and a half months the country did not speak about anything else They only talked about JNU What people do in JNU A BJP MLA came and said how many thousands of condoms are available in JNU how many bottles of beer are available Poor people even roamed around and counted dustbin to dustbin this also happened? It must have happened, otherwise, how could he say this so confidently? that's where he got it from. And how did they count the condoms? It's beyond me. At that time people were saying that do you hate your job? And think of the BJP MLA who counts condoms in JNU, used condoms in JNU There was absolute you know attack on freedom basically, freedom of expression Girls have a lot of freedom in this university. You also did a video, your video that what happens in JNU Is the video titled, Who is an Anti-National? In that he had said that there is so much freedom of speech that it doesn't even seem like India exists. The guy had said this in it. That's actually very… That's a big compliment actually. What they were doing was that they were vilifying higher education. They were vilifying every university. That you know, be Be aware of university students. They are anti-nationals. And the thing is that public education, universities like JNU, universities like DU, universities like Hyderabad Central University, Jadavpur University, these are public institutions, premier public institutions, where this education and the paraphernalia are affordable. Anyone can have them. It is not exclusive to people with resources only. That's why also it's very important that we keep these ideas of the universities alive. But it wastes a lot of money, Banojyotsana. We don't have this much money. Come on. I mean, the money you give to Adani, you don't give it him and rather to universities. But we don't have that much money. You are giving it to Adani, right? That is your money. The money that is going to Adani's loan from SBI, that is your money. You give that to universities. If you say it so loudly, you will have to go to jail. Basically, don't say it so loudly. I mean, look, health and education prepare the body and mind of the country. If you need to have a healthy body and healthy mind, then of the country or the nation. You have to have better health care and better education as simple as that. But Bano, you feel that the conversation, like in university I feel like the boundaries of conversation can be pushed. You can possibly talk about, you can talk about the separatist movements also in a fairly free manner. But don't you believe that in a country like ours, where you don't feel the spark, but you feel the fire. There, it might be wrong to say something publicly. Do you think there should be a difference between personal and public? Of what you say? The thing is that the last 10 years have become too much for us. Now we are also thinking that we can't talk like this. We have started censoring ourselves. That is why I am saying that is very antithetical to the basic tenets of freedom. Why shouldn't it happen? I mean, what's the problem with having them? In Ideal situation, Why shouldn't it happen? Meaning if someone is expressing his/her views, You are just talking about it, why should that lead to the spark? We have also 75 years of freedom and more, we have come a long way, right? Why should we not talk about things? Can we just let dialogue be or should there be a restriction on what you can say in public? See, that is the thing that what we are seeing is on one hand there is uncontrolled hate speech. Thousands of cases of hate speech has happened in especially BJP ruled states. Especially during elections, around elections, there will be a spike in targeting one community unbridled hate speech. You can say anything against it, you give call for genocide, you give call for mass murder. But on the other hand, by talking about anything, even by doing academic discussion or debating, we are hesitating. We are completely censoring ourselves. So this is not freedom. This is not a basic balance. There were some people in your friend circle who were very close. They saw that there is a lot of suffering in this path. And they left. Are there such people? Without naming anyone. Yeah, yeah, of course. and I don't blame anyone for it no no, of course not everyone has their own life but there have been people who have made a conscious choice that this sacrifice is not worth it it is a very sacrificial life that is being led yeah you can maybe find an easier path to live also what is an easier path? easier path is not easy because easier path is to be silent you won't be able to see yourself in the mirror. That's the thing. Being silent is not an option. Not an option. How? The country will change, the constitution will change, democracy will go, and you'll be silent? But is it worth it? Do you think speaking up is worth it in terms of are you getting that much support or or have you been made to stand on the pedestial? Because some people, I don't want to pitting anyone, but I mean Umar for instance is on the margins of the conversation No one in the mainstream is willing to speak out a lot about him. Some people are, sure. People like Ravish and other people But we have taken the conversation to a margin. So don't you feel that why are you fighting? Every day without any fail there will be unknown people I don't know I don't know them lawyers would come and tell me you have come for Umar Khalid's case please I mean we are all with you and I pray for him. And how does that make you feel when that happens? That's the strength that I draw every time. If no one would have spoken, no one would have stood by us, we would have left it by now. So the thing is, there is a world outside the mainstream, I mean, there is a world outside the mainstream politicians, there is a world outside the mainstream media, and there is a fight for that world, so there are a lot of people from that world. It's not like there are no people. What is your favorite thing to eat? Favorite thing to eat? Yes. Kolkata Biryani. You put eggs in the biryani right? You guys are the ones no? Potato. Potato. You guys put potato. What's the problem in that? There's meat too. It's not like there's no chicken or mutton. There's potato with it. You guys talk like it's potato biryani. It's weird. Sorry. I'm sorry. You're fierce. I would hate to be in a fight with you. What is his favorite thing to eat? Apart from your brain. Should I tell you the truth? Dal rice Oh my! He is not a true Muslim So, Umar's Like last to last year He had come out for 7 days Yeah Sister's wedding time He came and said, I am coming now because Tihar is veg, you know Really? You don't get non-veg food? Not even eggs, eggs are not given So, Umar came and said Now, in these 7 days he said, no one will bring veg food in front of me, I will only eat non-veg. So he started eating non-veg. After two days, he said, I want to eat rice and lentils. I am done, I don't want to eat non-veg anymore. What an irritating man! Actually, after I met him, I realised that Bengalis eat more non-veg than even the Muslims in Delhi. Oh! At least, their lunch is veg. It is prepared at night. Non-veg is in every meal of yours? Our breakfast, lunch, dinner, everything is non-vegetarian. Either it will be fish, or chicken, or mutton, or egg. Something will be there. We don't know how to eat veg. How do people eat only veg? What is the one advice you can give to long distance couples? Because you are a textbook long distance couple. I mean, I meet him every week. It's kind of long distance still. You are talking on the phone basically. It's like a video call. It's like a very like a virtual video call. So see, long distance couples will be told that whatever time you talk or spend talking, talking, make the maximum use of it so that it gives you a booster to spend the rest of the time. If you think that, oh, this is the only time I'm going to meet, You start getting upset, you start feeling bad that now we have stopped meeting each other, now we only meet once. We meet once a week. You have to look at the positives of it. Yeah, yeah. Without it, it can't happen. Especially when we don't know how long this distance will last. What is your favourite thing about him? Favourite thing about him? Why is it so hard to fathom? Is he cute or not? Yes, he is cute. He is cute. He is fearless too. He is straightforward because he speaks a lot; he says whatever comes to his mind. he speaks very straightforwardly. because I speak less, I am not that straightforward he is a straightforward person, I like that So 2016, I am just giving an example why it never ended for us 2016 happened, suddenly they were catapulted to... fame is not the right word but people knew them. Into public life. Yeah, first time, I mean, your inbox is blowing. In our social media also, started getting actual death threats or women rape threats. People started hating us. Because it was being broadcasted on TV everyday. At first, we were in shock. Like what is happening? The people who send the messages in the inbox, They exist somewhere. And was the hate only limited to the inbox? Or... obviously assassination attempt also happened. But other than that day to day functioning of life Does that impacted a lot? Yes, it did. I mean, after that Umar did not use the Metro. We thought that it's not safe. We stopped traveling by the trains Before that we used to travel by the trains wherever we went. Now we had to take flights every time Wherever we went, we had to go by cabs or flights. One time he got angry and said that he'll send all the bills to the Home Ministery. Who'll pay it?
Why do we need to book cabs every time? But he still used to travel a lot. Like travelling to Munirka. Kanhaiya was much more careful that way Umar was not He used to go here and there Till the 2018 assassination attempt happened Out of the blue. Then we understood that You know, they are out there Always So you are a target for them Yeah It's a constant target. Someone can come to shoot you and go. That was no longer a possibility It's a real thing It happened There was a program at 2.30 I had some friends there I didn't have breakfast or lunch So I said let's go eat something We went out and had some snacks Cold drinks, tea We stayed there for 10 minutes As soon as we started returning A man comes behind me He strangles me, He overpowers me and throws me on the ground And then suddenly he comes forward and pulls out a gun I was very scared at that moment when he pointed that gun at me In that moment I was being reminded of what happened to Gauri Lankesh And I thought that moment has arrived I'm really thankful to my friends who were present there That they could overpower him and I survived Have you ever seen therapy? Did he take therapy ever? No, we had a conversation He should have Actually after the assassination itself, he had a lot of PTSD. We had spoken about it at that time. But that was it. I mean, there is so much hustle in life. Then in 2019, shifting and stuff, then Modi government came for the second time, then the entire CAA started. Like you said, that's a different time. That's like, those were the times of hope. Those were the good old days. Yeah.
-At one point of time. Yeah.
So like, He was completely moving around everywhere. That's when I told him to settle down a little. You are going from one place to another. But he was liking it. Wherever he is going, he is seeing the same energy. You can't call it a stardom. But he was getting a lot of respect. He was getting it at every stage.
-Yeah And secondly, he was getting a chance to speak. Everyone was listening. With interest.
-Yes, everybody was listening to him. I am sure there were lots of offers and there are still lots of offers from political parties or no? Political parties? Saying come on board and I mean whatever like how Kanhaiya has gone into like That is too mainstream. That he walks side by side in the Bharat Jodo Yatra. See, ultimately the problem is the same. Problem is in the name. I mean, vilified Muslim, already vilified Muslim. It's not that he is a good... a cultured Muslim, that's not Umar. Like when this happened, about Delhi riot, it's not about Umar, I'm not saying it's about Umar. About Delhi riot, everybody knew what was the truth. Everybody knew that it is not the anti-CAA protest which led into the riots. It was people who came from outside. 52 people were killed in the riots. Majority were Muslims. Seven mosques were gutted in that entire Northeast Delhi. Everybody knew who were the primary targets of that attack, how this attack was organized. Everyone knew. Who didn't? Didn't AAP (Aam Aadmi Party) know about it? Their own people went to jail. Didn't Congress know about it? Everyone knew, but... Now they have started to talk about it after all these years, in the delay of trials and now that things are glaring, people are now talking much more. But when it happened, political parties also did not react the way they should have. Undoubtedly, and not just about Umar, overall about the riots. Yeah, yeah, that's why. And one felt let down so much by the Delhi government. Okay, police is not in your hands, but still the government could have done much more. The civil society went to the went to High Court at the middle of the night saying that ambulances are not being allowed. And the High Court intervened. Once the High Court intervened, the police also started acting. It seemed like the police was waiting for some other authority to tell them, do your job. Yeah. And the police did their job after that. But by then, three days had passed. Three days mean 50 people had lost their lives. So this civil society went and got it stopped through court. You couldn't do anything from the Delhi government? From the civil society, we were helping so many people, you know, evacuate people just on phone. We were doing it on the phone. We didn't have anything. We were dialling on 100 (Indian Helpline Number) and actually the number was responding. But you had to tell them that, you know, people are trapped here. Get them out of there. Across religion, we had helped people at that point of time. We had no power. And the people who had the power of the state, they were not doing anything. Couldn't they stop this? I mean, come on.
Again, It's like tragic comedy. I mean, it's very tragic but it's comic also at some point of time. Can you take us to the day of the arrest? Once again, going a little behind. So, the CAA and anti-CAA protests were going on and Umar was moving around the country. He went to a lot of places. Except one or two states he went to every state. Some or the other protest gathering would call him to address. People used to call him so he also used to go there. In the beginning of March, first week, suddenly he was going to Ranchi in a program in Ranchi when this news broke that Kapil Mishra tweeted that Umar Khalid had given a speech in Amravati which is the conspiracy of the riots. He had given a speech in Amravati. This was Tweeted by Kapil Mishra?
-Yes. So, Umar's speech happened in Amravati around 8 days before the riots. And it happened in Amravati. What happens in Amravati stays in Amravati. It never came to Delhi. And it was a speech where he said that... Mahatma Gandhi has given us the biggest weapon to fight, which is non-violence and truthfulness. If today, on the principles of Mahatma Gandhi, if someone is going in the same direction, then it is the people of this country. And if someone has shown the way to the people of this country, then it is the women of Shaheen Bagh. We promise, on 24th, when Donald Trump comes to India, we will tell that the Prime Minister of India and the Government of India are doing the work of dividing India. They are breaking the principles of Mahatma Gandhi. And we will tell that the people of India are fighting against the rulers of India. If the rulers of India want to divide the country, then the people of India are ready to unite the country. We will all come out on the streets. Will you come out? So, no way that can be a riot inducing speech. There was no violence after he gave the speech. Kapil Mishra on the other hand, on the day of the riot, stood in front of the camera and told the DG, we will be quite till Trump Sahab is here, and when he leaves, we can't promise about what we will do. He said this and the riots happened that day. Now, this guy, now, tweeted a 40 seconds edited clip of the Amravati speech and said that this is the conspiracy of the riot. There were around 700 FIRs filed for the riot. This one was turned into a conspiracy FIR. So Umar said that, you know, Covid-19 had already started in March. The scare had already started. Umar said that I should not go to any more big gatherings. So one side lockdown happened, the world has come to a standstill and the virus and lockdown and you know. On the other hand, in Delhi, people were being interrogated. People were called for interrogation and they were getting arrested also. Safoora, Natasha, Devangana, Asif, all those people. In May when Safoora, Meeran, these people got arrested, they included four sections of UAPA and said that now this is a terror case. And Umar Khalid's name is also there. It came into the media. But from May to August, we didn't get any intimation. The police did not call Umar. Anyways, the anxiety of the pandemic and the lockdown, everyone had it. For us, there is no limit, there is no boundaries. Got the call in August, first call he got in August. First day they interrogated, day long and then they said, yeah, we are satisfied, satisfied with your interrogation. We will keep your phone. We said, yes, okay, keep it, there is nothing on it. Then they called him on 13th September. This time, they were more fussy with the things like they put a notice at the door and all that. Oh. They put a notice on 12th September that he has to come tomorrow. He came on 13th September. He was interrogated the whole day. Later, he said, nothing happened, I was just sitting there. The whole day passed. At midnight, they intimated us that he has been taken into custody. So, this was the story. And how much time did you think he'll be gone for? I thought he would be gone for 2-2.5 years.
-You assumed that at the time? Everyone was saying 1 year, we were saying it will take 2-2.5 years. It's an UAPA case.
Bhima Koregaon case was already going on, it started in 2018. It's been 2 years and nothing had happened. nothing has happened.
-Correct. There is no trial on that as well.
-It hasn't started yet. There is no trial for 6 years. Yes. There is no deadline for it. They can take as long. So, I thought that by combining everything, Indian judicial system and everything, it will take at least 2 years. I didn't think it will take 4 years. I didn't think so. Anyway. As I told you, I have met him once. And he seemed very friendly to me. I was slightly sceptical as to if he would like my work or not. But he was quite jovial about it. Because I had said in an interview... in a Vox Pop, that 'Umar Khalid ko umar kaid'. And that was the joke I had cracked. And he remembered that joke. And what is it that you do right now? I am working with a research institution. So, you are a Dr. Banojyotsna Lahiri. And he is also Dr. Umar Khalid. Got it! He is a fake doctor but he still is a doctor. I ask you again. Yes. Umar or Messi? Now look, let me tell you like this, here is Umar's photo. Okay. In my living room. Is it drawn by you? No, no. Someone gifted it to me. Okay. Drawing. So this is my living room. Umar's photo is here. Messi's photo is in my bedroom. The priorities are clear. I wake up and see Leo's face first thing in the morning. I don't see his unlucky face. Okay? I told him that I love Leo a lot. In the beginning, he said, okay, you do it. What is it? He is out of your league. I then told him that you should realize this, one-sided love is also love. Absolutely. I mean, Meera's love was also love. Oh man! Then he started getting a little insecure. One day I posted on Facebook that he had a very #champaksahaircut. I asked him what lousy haircut is this? It looks weird. He said, why? Your Leo's hair is also like this. I said, you actually tried to get a Leo haircut? It didn't work out actually. It looked very lousy. He wasn't looking like Leo from any angle. It's not even possible. It's not even possible. Come on, man. I met Umar next day after the World Cup finals.. Umar said, did you watch the match? I said, yes, I watched it. Their TV turns off after a certain point. He said, as soon as it was over, Your Messi won the World Cup and at that very moment the TV switched off. But I saw the whole thing. I asked, you watched the whole match? He said, yes, I watched the whole match. I asked, who were you supporting? He said Argentina, I was thinking that if Argentina loses, you will be in such a bad mood tomorrow, that our meeting will be ruined. So I thought that just for the sake of my meeting, Argentina should win. In a parallel universe, where are Umar and Banojyotsna? I don't know. Leading a normal life, probably. Which is? Which is like living in a democratic country without fear. No, but for you guys personally, what does it mean? I want a normal life, where there is no tension, no anxiety. Where there is no one eager to kill, no jail, no death threats, no hatred. I want a normal life like that. In JNU, a professor told a story in a speech, that once there was a big fire in a jungle and a small bird was trying to extinguish it with water in its beak. A crow was sitting and cawing, and the crow asked, why are you doing this, this fire is very big, you won't be able to extinguish it, why are you putting water on it? So, the bird said, when the history of this fire is written, I will be among those who tried to put out this fire. I won't sit and do nothing. So, the thing is that this fire will also be put out. One day it will be put out. The history of this time will also be written at some point. So I believe fearless people will be remembered. People who stood up without fear. But is that what drives one or do you have to find peace in your present? Do you have to see hope in the future? No, it's not like that. If history is written, we will be remembered. But... No, I'm not saying that we will be remembered. The fearless ones who were trying to put out the fire But how do you find hope in the present? In the present, there is fire In present you can only...
-But you can't think about it the whole day, I'm assuming That there is fire, you need to do something
-I watch football then. Then Leo helps Football is my catharsis. I look at places like Palestine and all that are even worse than us You know. Right now as well, we are after all the privileged class. Yes, we are in jail and everything, But we aren't people who are in extreme financial distress. If you look around, you find people with less privilege than you. That you remember your privileges. I mean, we are talking about Umar. There are so many people in jail whom we don't talk about. People don't even know their names. There are protests in New York for Umar. So many people are talking about him. There are so many who are not discussed or unknown. Even we don't know them. Bulldozers have hit the homes of so many people. They have destroyed their houses. People build their homes with so much difficulty. And they are using bulldozers on them so easily. In Rajasthan, bulldozers are being used on the fields. If you grow crops in the fields, then they come and run a bulldozer on it When I see these people, I feel that we are still very privileged because these people are also surviving They are also fighting People have it much worse. Yeah, much worse Much worse They also give us the strength to fight What do you think is the source of the state's oppressive nature? So what is the source of this nature of the state? Because I believe the constitution gives us a nice enough state. It's not oppressive in how the constitution envisions it. And so why do you think it's... So see, it's an ongoing thing. Our democracy is a work in progress. So there is a lot of role of the government in that. Government sets an example. If the government starts behaving like goons, then the people below will feel that it is valid. The government acts more poised, more tolerant, tolerant towards dissent. You know, when, just an example, Manmohan Singh came to JNU in 2006, and the students showed him black flag there on the question of new liberal policies, on the question of AFSPA and all that. Manmohan Singh after the speech instructed the Vice Chancellor that no action should be taken against any student, because it's their right to protest. It's their right to protest. It's their right to dissent. They have absolutely done nothing wrong in showing me black flag. I'm the Prime Minister. They can show me black flag. They are the citizens of the country. The Vice Chancellor was itching to take action against the students. He thought he has to take action. Like how dare they show The Prime Minister the black flag. How can this happen? The Prime Minister at that point of time said that no, we will tolerate dissent. The Vice-Chancellor had to tolerate dissent and it percolates down then. Then the citizens also become, you know, more tolerant towards opposing views. That your opinion may be different from mine. But you have the right to say that and I will listen and engage. Not necessarily I'll agree with you, but I'll listen to you. You know, I'll not shut you down. It depends a lot on the Government also.
-This what Manmohan Singh and this example sound like such a distant dream now. Like what are you saying? It is impossible to happen now.
-It is impossible. But it was possible. It is in history.
-And it is not that the Prime Minister said this. The fact that you can show black flags to the Prime Minister, that in itself, the act of it, sounds like such a distant dream now.
-Yeah, but the thing is that that happened and not very far away, you know, 2006. So it did happened and in our country, it is possible, it is possible in our country You know, just one last thing, a lot of people in the comment section I know will write we want to do something but we don't know how to do it I mean people who might not be in your friend circle, might not believe in the same ideology also but might believe that keeping someone without trial in jail for 4 years is just draconian nothing else. Just I mean how can they do something like is it some is there something that they can do on their on their like day to day level.
-See I believe that it is, one, it is not about Umar alone, it's all these people who are in jail that we should not forget them we should keep the conversation going Ultimately, see, it's a completely political case. In fair trial...
Even the JNU case, a lot happened in a year... two months. It took five years for them to get their charge sheet. Because there is nothing in the charge sheet. They don't want the trial. If there is a trial in the court of law, they knows that they will be dropped. So they don't want to go to the court of law. So, the day this goes to the Court of Law, the day the trial starts, It is going to fall. and everyone will walk out to freedom. In the meantime, what we can do is that we refuse to get silenced, not just about them. See, this is the entire thing no. I mean, see, I am anxious, I have a lot of anxiety, I am nervous, I am tired, I am exhausted. One thing I'm not... I am not scared. I don't get scared. What is there to be scared of? Don't be scared. That fear was born in our hearts. And with that fear, we censor ourselves. We throttle our imaginations. You just said that you can't even imagine that a Prime Minister can be shown a black flag. But it was shown. It was shown in our country. Why should we let our imaginations not reach there to something that actually happened that was reality. So we should keep going towards the ideal that we want. Yeah. We should keep working towards it. Keep working towards it and make jokes on the way. Yeah sure. You know, do not stop laughing, do not become that serious and we remain fearless that's it. Life becomes easier trust me I mean I am surviving because of all that. Only because you mentioned jokes, you know how I wanted to start this interview? I wanted to say, when did you first realize that you were a victim of Love Jihad? Also, in the chargesheet, a lot of things were written, that these people are doing Ghazwa-e-Hind.. So Khalid Saifi came and asked me, what is this Ghazwa-e-Hind? They have charged us for Ghazwa-e-Hind. But what is Ghazwa-e-Hind? I should at least know what I am doing according to him. Same thing, I mean, what is love jihad? I mean, what is love jihad? The people who say it must know what love jihad is. I know love, I mean, where did jihad come from? Is that the most ridiculous thing that you've heard, the Ghazwa-e-Hind? Or are there more ridiculous things that you've heard? No, I had heard a lot of things during JNU. Umar Khalid doesn't even have a passport, you know. He has been to Pakistan, Afghanistan I don't know where else.
-He went without a passport? That's what... ask Rahul Shiv Shankar no. He said it. Oh man. Yeah, he must've gone without a passport maybe by digging a hole under the barbed wires. Rahul Shiv Shankar knows, ask him. He must have gone after watching Bajrangi Bhaiyan.
-Yes, He must have gone after watching Bajrangi Bhaiyan. Oh man Anyway Thank you, thank you Bannojyotsna Thank you for your time and thank you for your honesty Thank you so much, thank you When is your birthday? Mine? Birthday? August, we both have birthdays in August. Mine is 4th and his is 10th Both are Leo 11th, sorry Both are... Hoh! I will send this clip to him You forgot his birthday! Both are Leo My mother is Leo Strong headed people That's why we fight a lot. It's not happening since 4 years Yes, we are missing it actually. Of course, I am sure you miss it. Oh, you are sure I miss it You are not sure he misses it or not You think he is peaceful I am not peaceful See, I have met him for 5 minutes. Now, I have spoken to you for one and a half hours. I know you better. I don't know him.
